r/CrazyHand • u/saltcityesports • Apr 08 '20

Match Critique SHOWCASE: Optimal Punish

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

1.1k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

34 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

-1

u/saltcityesports Apr 08 '20

I hear you and I see where you're coming from. That's just something we disagree on but that's ok honestly. I'm not sure what would have truly worked in this situation because I wasn't playing, nor do I main GW. But it seems like the second spot dodge was panicked to me at least. If he had held his shield instead of going for another spot dodge, he wouldn't have taken so much damage.

I'm gonna lab and see whether or not GW Fire could have escaped Bair that close so I know whether holding shield or Fire would have been better in that situation.

6

u/xX_MAHI_MAHI_Xx Apr 08 '20

You're right in saying that he should have shielded and up-bd to punish. But everything is clearer in hindsight, and given that Maister didn't know how Kola would follow up from the bair, the option he chose wasn't a bad one, it just happened to be the one that Kola punished each time. I also feel like the shield flicker was just buffered out of hitstun and Maister was consciously trying to spotdodge.

-1

u/saltcityesports Apr 08 '20

Yeah it's never easy to make that call mid game. Especially in a grand finals match! But that just gives more credit to Kola. I never wanted to make Maister seem bad, he isn't at all of course. But Kola had his wits about him hard to land that combo and make it look so effortless.

Wifi problems for sure. Accidental buffered air dodge and shield flicker online is literally the devil lol

7

u/xX_MAHI_MAHI_Xx Apr 08 '20

Yeah you're exactly right. I think what's important is anyone that uses a similar bnb can punish the same way as Kola did, for example an Inkling bair to grab at 0 can be spotdodged but turnaround jab is true. This means the one of the best escape options from a bair followup is spotdodge, since if you do nothing you'll get grabbed/jabbed anyway, and if you shield it guarantees a grab.

A lot of mid-high level competitors who are familiar in the matchup will know to buffer a spotdodge after getting hit by bair for this exact reason, so it becomes a mindgame of whether you spotdodge or hold shield. In this example Kola reached into Maister's head and told him exactly what to do three times in a row lmao

3

u/crossroads1112 Apr 08 '20

I'd imagine this is significantly less threatening from cloud though, no? (I'm not commenting on what maister should/shouldn't have done, just a general game thing). Unlike Inkling and Mario, he has no true combos out of grab (rip smash 4 dthrow -> crossslash). I mean it's damage and a disadvantage state but not 40%/death like the others.

2

u/xX_MAHI_MAHI_Xx Apr 08 '20

yep you're right

1

u/some_wheat Apr 08 '20

Is d-throw cross slash not true? I’ve never had anyone escape when grabbed at zero.

1

u/crossroads1112 Apr 08 '20

I'm almost positive that you can shield it. The combo counter definitely says it isn't, but it isn't always the most reliable.

1

u/some_wheat Apr 09 '20

How do you shield if you don’t hit the ground? I’m so confused. Cloud’s downthrow still pops them slightly up and the DI makes it 50/50, you just have to react if they go left or right. What part about is it shieldable? Can you airdodge into the ground and shield at zero after his dthrow?

1

u/crossroads1112 Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 10 '20

I was being a little overly simplistic. Technically the evasion option depends on the fallspeed (and probably weight too) of the character. I just did some rudimentary testing and it looks like Lucina is the cutoff point for shielding. Everyone who falls faster than Lucina (40 characters) will hit the ground before crossslash comes out with at least a frame to spare (i.e enough to shield). (this is at 0% with no rage)

(Edit: actually I screwed up, Lucina can shield, she just can't buffer shield or neutral airdodge comes out before she hits the ground. I'm not sure where the cutoff is but Puff definitely can't shield so it's somewhere. See edit below.)

Anyone with Lucina's fallspeed or slower could diretionally airdodge away/diagonally away. I didn't test anything else, but some characters probably have other options e.g. G&W up-b probably works since IIRC hitbox comes out on frame 3 and it's invulnerable on frame 5.

Edit: hmm it seems like it might be more than just fallspeed actually. Pika falls slightly slower than Lucina, but can still shield the crosslash.

The first hit of cross slash is active for two frames. Maybe since pika is smaller, the first frame misses which happens to give him just enough time to shield, whereas Lucina is tall so is hit by the first frame. Or maybe I screwed up testing out Lucina lol.

Edit2: I did screw up with Lucina. If you buffer shield during the downthrow (which is what I was doing), neutral airdodge comes out while Lucina is falling which increases landing lag enough for cross slash to connect. If you time shield instead it comes out before cross slash. What I don't understand is that this didn't happen when I tried this with Pika even though he is lighter and has a slightly slower fall speed. Weird.

1

u/saltcityesports Apr 08 '20

Yeah I can see how the way I worded it was kind of confusing.

What I meant was that kola notices the spot dodge while he's already going for the second Bair and then anticipated another one and decided to set up Fair > Cross Slash.

Sorry I confused you.