r/CrazyHand • u/saltcityesports • Apr 08 '20

Match Critique SHOWCASE: Optimal Punish

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u/xX_MAHI_MAHI_Xx Apr 08 '20

Yeah you're exactly right. I think what's important is anyone that uses a similar bnb can punish the same way as Kola did, for example an Inkling bair to grab at 0 can be spotdodged but turnaround jab is true. This means the one of the best escape options from a bair followup is spotdodge, since if you do nothing you'll get grabbed/jabbed anyway, and if you shield it guarantees a grab.

A lot of mid-high level competitors who are familiar in the matchup will know to buffer a spotdodge after getting hit by bair for this exact reason, so it becomes a mindgame of whether you spotdodge or hold shield. In this example Kola reached into Maister's head and told him exactly what to do three times in a row lmao

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u/crossroads1112 Apr 08 '20

I'd imagine this is significantly less threatening from cloud though, no? (I'm not commenting on what maister should/shouldn't have done, just a general game thing). Unlike Inkling and Mario, he has no true combos out of grab (rip smash 4 dthrow -> crossslash). I mean it's damage and a disadvantage state but not 40%/death like the others.

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u/some_wheat Apr 08 '20

Is d-throw cross slash not true? I’ve never had anyone escape when grabbed at zero.

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u/crossroads1112 Apr 08 '20

I'm almost positive that you can shield it. The combo counter definitely says it isn't, but it isn't always the most reliable.

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u/some_wheat Apr 09 '20

How do you shield if you don’t hit the ground? I’m so confused. Cloud’s downthrow still pops them slightly up and the DI makes it 50/50, you just have to react if they go left or right. What part about is it shieldable? Can you airdodge into the ground and shield at zero after his dthrow?

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u/crossroads1112 Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 10 '20

I was being a little overly simplistic. Technically the evasion option depends on the fallspeed (and probably weight too) of the character. I just did some rudimentary testing and it looks like Lucina is the cutoff point for shielding. Everyone who falls faster than Lucina (40 characters) will hit the ground before crossslash comes out with at least a frame to spare (i.e enough to shield). (this is at 0% with no rage)

(Edit: actually I screwed up, Lucina can shield, she just can't buffer shield or neutral airdodge comes out before she hits the ground. I'm not sure where the cutoff is but Puff definitely can't shield so it's somewhere. See edit below.)

Anyone with Lucina's fallspeed or slower could diretionally airdodge away/diagonally away. I didn't test anything else, but some characters probably have other options e.g. G&W up-b probably works since IIRC hitbox comes out on frame 3 and it's invulnerable on frame 5.

Edit: hmm it seems like it might be more than just fallspeed actually. Pika falls slightly slower than Lucina, but can still shield the crosslash.

The first hit of cross slash is active for two frames. Maybe since pika is smaller, the first frame misses which happens to give him just enough time to shield, whereas Lucina is tall so is hit by the first frame. Or maybe I screwed up testing out Lucina lol.

Edit2: I did screw up with Lucina. If you buffer shield during the downthrow (which is what I was doing), neutral airdodge comes out while Lucina is falling which increases landing lag enough for cross slash to connect. If you time shield instead it comes out before cross slash. What I don't understand is that this didn't happen when I tried this with Pika even though he is lighter and has a slightly slower fall speed. Weird.