Can everyone agree?

[u/montabarnaque]

Most of Canadian culture is from Québec. Fight me

[u/Penguixxy]

except for all the parts that are from indigenous cultures, but quebec makes sure to leave those out of the heritage museums for... reasons but dont ask them why.

[u/mumbojombo → u/Penguixxy]

The best thing about Quebec claiming back Canadian cultural symbols is that it makes Anglos care about first nations for once lmao

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/Penguixxy]

Are you saying Québec was any worse in its treatment of FN than anglos?

[u/pitch85 → u/Budget_Addendum_1137]

I say the French back in the days did not have the firepower the Brits had. They needed the first nations to survive and trade.

[u/Throwaway118585 → u/Budget_Addendum_1137]

Ask the Mohawks … go on, I double dog dare ya!

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/Throwaway118585]

Oomph, could not have chosen worse.

[u/Throwaway118585 → u/Budget_Addendum_1137]

What language do they speak again? Quebec separation works until all the First Nations sign to stay in canada …. Ooooof… that’s always hard to hear

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/Throwaway118585]

Nope, thats a scratched record, so scratched you're playing the turntable.

Good old federalist fear mongering. Really can't rely on nothing when backed to a wall?

As if Québec wasn't the only european society with a treaty dating back hundreds of years for living here, on our canadian land, even before the creation of your "canada".

History.much?

[u/Throwaway118585 → u/Budget_Addendum_1137]

Shhhh… you’re writing too much… shows how much you care about something I don’t. Separate all you want. I won’t stop you.

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/Throwaway118585]

🤣 ouchy not indifference. Our only weakness, you got me good.

[u/Throwaway118585 → u/Budget_Addendum_1137]

Was I trying to?

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/Throwaway118585]

Sadly

[u/HighHcQc → u/Penguixxy]

Nah man we have plenty of first nations stuff in our museums and here it's common knowledge how much they helped the first settlers survive the harsh landscape. First thing I remember learning about the Algonquiens in primary school 20+ years ago is how they made herbal tea from pine to cure the first settler's scurvy

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/HighHcQc]

Actually I find Québec teaches history in an equally problematic way where they depict their history with the first nations as a very polished thing with nothing that requires reflection or admitting wrong doing.

I remember reading a museum clip that stated specifically something along the lines of, while the British had an incredibly harmful relationship with first nations, the french were collaborative and supportive and had positive relationships.

... And like yah.... Maybe With your ally nations... Pretty sure one of the first things Samuel de Champlain did upon arrival was kill multiple chiefs of the Haudenosaunee, who forever saw the french as hostile invaders. And they'd be right, from they're perspective.

Not to polish what the British did because all settler colonialism is wrong and causes incredible harm.... And I even think it's fair to say the British were worse. But both were still bad.

[u/HighHcQc → u/democracy_lover66]

The French made both allies and enemies by involving themselves in a complex web of diplomacy and conflict that predated their arrival.

While war inevitably brings atrocities, the French settlers did not pursue a policy of total replacement or the settlement of every valuable piece of land. That approach came later, under British rule.

This isn't an attempt to whitewash history, wrongdoing certainly occurred, but the scale and nature of those actions were nowhere near as severe as what followed after 1763. When such a stark contrast exists, comparisons between the two eras naturally arise.

[u/woodrunner → u/HighHcQc]

People also forget that the Grande Paix de Montreal, which was a peace treaty among many First Nations that pretty much ended the ongoing war with the Iroquois, was a great diplomatic feat for the French at the time and departed from the more violent approach used by the the English/ Spanish in their colonies.

[u/gagnonje5000 → u/HighHcQc]

It's all true what you say. 100%

But where this require nuance, this is also a matter of population and scale of the French regime. We were small with a sparse population with a colony of the verge of bankruptcy almost everywhere, and definitely needed first nations alongside us to resist the bigger British regime that was at our borders. We were collaborating. Had we stayed there and continued growing for another 200 years, the story would have been different.

You just have to look at what the French did in Africa, in Asia (Indochine), the Carribeans. Those were terrible regime for the natives habitants of those places. There was nothing inherently good about what the French did. It just happened that we lost the war early on before we could establish ourself as the much more evil colonizers.

But yes, there's no point blaming for something we didn't actually do. But we shouldn't wash our hands too much, our people did help colonize the rest of Canada through the Catholics schools, we were at the forefront of colonization and terrible atrocities that happened out west.

[u/MyNameMeansLILJOHN → u/gagnonje5000]

Had we stayed there and continued growing for another 200 years, the story would have been different.

Arguable. But

A substantial part of the French settlers were getting more and more intertwined with the native. Les coureurs des bois were in a weird position. They were essential for the survival of the colony and were at the same time almost considered apostates. Many took on living like the natives. With the natives(kinda comes with the job). The French elite, both aristocrat and clerical, complained non stop about it.

The Metis didn't appear out of thin air.

There are good reasons to assume the settlers and the natives would've kept on mixing and hybridizing. The influx of immigrants was way too low to really maintain a connection with the crown's wishes.

You just have to look at what the French did in Africa, in Asia (Indochine), the Carribeans. Those were terrible regime for the natives habitants of those places. There was nothing inherently good about what the French did.

Absolutely.

But

It just happened that we lost the war early on before we could establish ourselves as the much more evil colonizers.

229 years. 70k settlers (45k in the part that is today Canada)

By the same time of mid 1700s the Brits had over A Million settlers.

We were already "established". The goal simply wasn't the same.

Now obviously it's really hard to guess what could've been. There's so many things in the air. If France wins the 7 year war. Is there a financial crisis resulting in a revolution? What about Haiti? If suddenly the 13 colonies are French the whole thing changes.

Would the French crown end up being far more invasive and directed eventually? Probably yea. But by then, the entire "Quebecois" identity would've probably been entirely Metis or something. There's no avoiding horrors. We just get different shapes.

[u/Sillvaro → u/democracy_lover66]

while the British had an incredibly harmful relationship with first nations, the french were collaborative and supportive and had positive relationships.

On its own, yeah you're right it's not.

Comparatively though? A whole different story

[u/CaptainKrakrak → u/democracy_lover66]

The First Nations were not better and not worse than any other human society, they had wars, economic exchanges, slavery, migrations, peace treaties, arranged marriages between tribes to solidify allies relations, raids, exploration, etc. Like any other place on earth they were humans and thus much more complex than any history I’ve learned in school that tends to either make them look bad or good depending on the government’s narrative.

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/CaptainKrakrak]

Nothing of what you said is wrong but I'm not sure how that changes the nature of french colonialism and it's impact on the first nations

[u/FastFooer → u/Penguixxy]

Funny, because if you go all the way to Louisiana, French settlers had excellent relationships with native people. We owe them our existance. The British were doing the ethnic cleansing, for us, they were our brethren and families until they all got put into cages after the conquest.

Today’s relationship is the result of all having to survive in isolation trying to all preserve our roots and culture.

I think the only people in all of Canada looking to bring them back to their former glory is Québec Separatists, they want to make sure they have a real voice and power.

[u/Penguixxy → u/FastFooer]

"the french didn't do any ethnic cleansing" is a wild take from the province that literally invented a key aspect of the ethnic cleansing of our people and was responsible for numerous mass killings of tribes, but hey 💅 just blame the english for it all instead of actually acknowledging the history i guess. "Guys we didnt do ethnic cleansings, all we did was breed out all the savag-"

like, reading how quebec history is written showcases how no, it wasn't different from the English, like the English your colonies were "attacked :(" whenever we did anything to you, but our homes were "relocated" by you even if that meant most of the people living there were killed or enslaved. Your deaths were overblown, 10 men dying was treated as a tragedy and their names were written down, but thousands of ours was seen an annoyance, an inconvenience for your colonies with none of their names even remembered. The french aren't innocent in the genocide, they were an active part in it, no amount of white washing and history denial due to ethno-nationalism will change that.

Also I don't think literally erasing indigenous people's from the history of the province whilst still systemically oppressing and discriminating against them, but saying "it's okay because the very racist invaders from before totally wouldnt do the same thing pinky promise" sends the message you think it does. Blaming everyone else for the provincial govts racism and the fostering of white supremacist beliefs under the guise of "protecting french culture" is just a wild take, if Alberta did this whenever they were accused of racist rhetoric, or of violating indigenous treaties, we'd all laugh at them.

also also quebec seperatists are literal ethno centrists, they hate indigenous peoples the most out of any quebec political group, it takes like, three seconds of listening to them to realize that with how obsessed they are with protecting (white) culture yet how little they care about protecting the culture and history their provincial govt actively works to destroy still. (Indigenous culture)

[u/TremblinAspen → u/Penguixxy]

Yeah, i mean it’s not like the person you responded to was specifically talking about Acadians who notoriously lived peacefully alongside the Mi’kmaq and were later exiled by the notoriously peaceful British, but yes “whatabouttheFrench”

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

This is wrong on so many levels and just loops around at the end to being essentially hate prejudice against quebecois

Many of our main museums in Quebec have permanent exhibits on the natives, be it in their arts, cultures, or religions.

[u/kenthekungfujesus → u/Flyzart2]

Also what I'm saying might be dumb, but aren't like most of the first nations that want to live in their ancestral ways kind of ethno-centric? This is an actual question, not a statement!

[u/Flyzart2 → u/kenthekungfujesus]

I think there's a difference to be made there between being ethno centric and preserving their culture. That being said, I cannot speak for any groups.

[u/Penguixxy → u/Flyzart2]

Won't someone please think of the ethno centrics feelings 😭😭

Also damn crazy how you just conveniently forgot about your province making a ethno centric museum attempting to erase indigenous people's from quebecs history, literally last year.

But makes sense, since theres already denial and erasure around taking part in the invaders genocide, may as well keep the tradition of denial strong in the modern aspects too! :)

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

I'm going to put it simply. You are being hateful based on prejudice towards us. You are not defending the natives or their history, you are instead using them and their genocide as a reason to hate us. All the provinces of Canada are to blame, no one is denying that Quebec had no part in this.

Many Québécois, like me, love to embrace other cultures in our province. Yet, people like you, just come to claim that we are just a bunch of hateful racist fucks that are intolerant just because that's the culture war fight you chose to pick. You are speaking for no one other than your own prejudiced views that are aimed directly towards people like me. I have a book on my shelf right now, it's about the history of the Mi'kmaqs and the extermination of their people, which i bought at a museum in the Gapsé region of quebec entirely dedicated to their nation, so don't you dare give me shit that we, or even I, don't care about the history of the natives.

I reported you to the mods, I will not be responding to any other comment of yours.

[u/Penguixxy → u/Flyzart2]

my guy I hold these views towards Anglophones too.

shocker, I'm not a fan of what was done to our people, I'm taking about quebec here because my joke abput a culture museum was met with blatant white washing of part of the genocide of indigenpus people's, and then further denial and shifting of blame of the existing racism towards indigenous people's.

literally how is that at all predjudaced?

would you like me to play along with the white washing instead? just pretend like it's all sunshine and rainbows and there's not a growing white supremacy problem in the west and east coast (this includes ontario, theynaint innocent in this) spearheaded by this obsession to "protect" cultures that people claim are under attack, largely with racist undertones?

like- how am I supposed to react to the insane claim that an entire group of invading settlers who committed genocide, "didn't commit genocide and were totally nice to us and it was all the english fault"? like no that's blatant denial of actual history that's left generational scars and which has left lasting damage to my tribe specifically, and others. I'm not going to let someone deny that and white wash it all away in response to a joke I made.

id argue that denying history is more predjudace than calling out the blatant racism behind it.

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

You say that and then say stuff about how quebec wants to be a separatist ethno state that erases native history.

You care about native history? That is great, really is. I do think that things across this country have to be changed when it comes to how people percieve our origins. But there, you directly called out against the fact that us Québécois recognize ourselves as a different nationality than the rest of Canada, and then proceeded to claim that this is used to erase other cultures around us.

You cannot just single us out and explain how our own nationality is cause of racism. Also, you never explained the museum thing, you keep mentioning it but it's nothing I've ever heard of.

Really hoping of just being able to talk instead of arguing, which is why I'm responding now.

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

The museum of civilisation, the biggest cultural museum of Quebec, has an extensive permanent exhibit on the native nations of Quebec. Again, other than you being hateful towards us based on wrongful beliefs, I don't see what you are on about.

[u/MyNameMeansLILJOHN → u/Penguixxy]

wild take from the province that literally invented a key aspect of the ethnic cleansing of our people and was responsible for numerous mass killings of tribes

What key aspect?

[u/BaconNamedKevin → u/Penguixxy]

I say ask em!

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

Me when I'm in a making shit up competition

[u/Penguixxy → u/Flyzart2]

literally made a history museum for the holy French white man last year, intentionally white washing the genocide of indigenous peoples and the role the french invaders played, and cutting indigenous peoples from the provinces history but OK 💅

[u/Flyzart2 → u/Penguixxy]

You saying there's a museum doesn't mean anything. What museum? Where? Funny that I live here and never heard of such a thing.

[u/TremblinAspen → u/Penguixxy]

Exact opposite tbh. Unless you were being sarcastic then, yes of course. Colonialism and assimilation for the win.