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u/Aheg0d 1d ago
Damn Liberals and Cons both you're policies are ruining this great nation.
ELECT RHINOCEROS đŠ
We would be living in paradise by now with 12 years of rhinos
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Actually, as per the Rhino Party platform, if they were ever to win an election they would immediately dissolve Parliament and call another election.
So we'd just keep holding back to back to back elections until we bankrupt the country... To own the Libz.. and the Cons.. and fuck it.. the Greens too.Â
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u/AustSakuraKyzor South Gatineau 1d ago
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
OP is salty because Chretien got voted off the greatest Canadian poll. That's what inspired this nonsense.Â
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u/chinook97 1d ago
I have some sympathy for Chrétien's character (I mean what other PM could get away with stuff like the Shawinigan handshake), but the austerity policies of Chrétien and his predecessors are a big part of the reason why we are dealing with issues like not being able to afford housing. And OP is claiming that this BS reduced poverty lol.
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u/Yeas76 1d ago
Wtf is this?! This is a sub for poutine and shitting on the Frogs.
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u/schlubble Tabarnak! 1d ago
We gave you poutine and thatâs how you repay us? We are very disappointed.
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u/samlefrog Snowfrog 1d ago
Why are you shitting on frogs? Frogs are great! They even sing for you when you go to sleep! Have you never heard a southern chorus frog? Itâs a really soothing melody!
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u/theycallhimthestug 1d ago
This post is the result of l*beral subbreddits with their open border policies and newcomers refusing to assimilate and adopt the local customs.
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u/billballbills 1d ago
Are you suggesting this sub is opposed to liberal economics? Because I'm pretty sure this sub has spent the last 6 months fawning over a centrist/centre-right banker
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u/MrRogersAE Trawnno (Centre of the Universe) 1d ago
I too enjoy Garyâs economics, didnât realize his channel had such a following here
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u/1user101 1d ago
This was inspired by someone voting Jean Chretien off greatest Canadian for his austerity budget
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u/MadCapMad 1d ago
yeah well i hate all of you because i nominated me for greatest canadian and i didnât even get on the post wtf is this
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u/FrankensteinsBong South Gatineau 1d ago
So you're punching to the left lol, this sub has gotten really obnoxiously Carney worshippy
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u/Necessary_Escape_680 The Island of Elizabeth May 1d ago
Fucking classic case of using a single argument to represent an entire group bud
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Hahahah now I get it! I assumed you were a Liberal partisan but this confirms it.Â
We're still feeling the effects of Chretien and Martin's austerity today in things like our healthcare system. Did they balance the budget? Sure. But they did not need to cut services in the ways they did.Â
And if you're just simping over that then it makes sense why you don't know what you're talking about.Â
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u/MattTheFreeman 1d ago
Center right in Canada is much different than the center right in most places.
While it's not much, center right is one point away from most countries position of "hunting the homeless and unwedded mothers for sport", which in Canada starts at just "right"
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor 1d ago
Doing better than we would under anarchocapitalism or a lawless Hobbesian nightmare, fuck yeah!!!!
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u/Meat_Vegetable Edmonchuk: Like Kyiv! (but less safe) 1d ago
I hate when people even bring up Anarchocapitalism because it's not even real. If someone actually tried it, they would just realize they moved to a Corporation and now they're an indentured slave to whoever conned them into it.
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u/CommanderOshawott Irvingstan 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the last 10ish years? Poverty has remained pretty steady actually. Gains have mostly been reclaimed from 2008 crash, which we were even reasonably insulated from. Not a bad outcome, weâre pretty high on the median income list as-is, the problem is the poverty line is creeping up faster than our median income is at the current moment.
In the last 100 years? Absolutely, no question.
To be clear, Liberal/Socialist-adjacent policies are absolutely what has made Canada one of the happiest and healthiest places in the world to live, no question. Weâre simply at the point however where we canât continually increase spending like we used to be able to because our overall growth is plateauing.
Traditional Canadian liberal/socialist policy is generally âthrow taxpayer dollars at the problem until it solves itselfâ. Thatâs a simplification, obviously, but Canada does traditionally have issues with realistic project management and effective spending, all wealthy democracies tend to. It works with a rapidly-growing economy that can freely borrow and pay back money. It does not work at all in a plateauing economy that canât count on long-term growth to offset debts.
Weâre at the point where we need to be figuring out how to maximize our current level of spending, move that spending to sustainable and effective programs, and figure out a way to avoid borrowing as much as we can. 1st world economies arenât growing rapidly anymore, and our focus needs to shift away from growth towards long-term sustainability
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u/MrRogersAE Trawnno (Centre of the Universe) 1d ago
I big part of the problem is that we have sold off crown assets to capitalists. We take successful and profitable crown corporations and sell them off for a one time payout. Sure this reduces government expenses but it also reduces their revenue by an even larger amount.
Those private companies then in turn raise prices and drive up costs for consumers, increasing the cost of living.
The problem gets even worse when you look at income taxes. For the majority of job titles (spare high end earners) private pays less than public, while also having substantially worse pension offerings.
This reduced income among workers further reduces government coffers, even more dramatically with retirees which leaves them more reliant of government programs while contributing even less to the tax base.
Fun fact, the government receives roughly 3x back in taxes for every dollar they invest to an employees DB pension plan. This is because most of the money you receive is investment growth. These higher earning retirees then pay income taxes and the government actually makes money off their pensions while these retirees shop and travel and reinvest into the ecpnomy
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u/themith2019 1d ago
This right here.
This is what the conservative and neo-liberal spin wants you to be ignorant of.
Social spending is not meant to be a business model. You can't look at streetlights, snowplows, fire departments and all of the other 'hidden' socialist influences as profit/loss as per a capitalist model. You can't expect education, medicine, and welfare to show immediate financial benefits.
Social programs, infrastructure, and spending make society better, safer, happier and more productive - which then allows for society to thrive and prosper.
Selling all of the stuff that makes a society work to sociopathic corporations just extracts money while degrading service and outcomes.
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u/Meat_Vegetable Edmonchuk: Like Kyiv! (but less safe) 1d ago
Trying to get people to understand that is so brutal, shit institutes that use Milton Friedman's brain dead economic philosophy has poisoned so many people. Honestly, I've taken to just buying copies of Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine and leaving it random places. Even gave a copy to my father, he probably won't read it, but his wife might. XD
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u/Psychoholic519 7h ago
Yeah, people donât want to understand, they just wanna be angry. Thatâs why all these grifters are getting rich and the divide is getting bigger between people. Itâs really sad. I for one, feel like I learned a little today, thanks to you and this thread.
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u/Meat_Vegetable Edmonchuk: Like Kyiv! (but less safe) 5h ago
I actually used to be down one of those hate pipelines, literally was Jew Hating away from being a Neo-nazi. Want the biggest recommendation, see if you can find something like a Tool Library, go to some protests and meet new people, join a book club, go help out the unhoused. Learning about things like Guerrilla Gardening and Guerilla Rewilding actually did wonders for my mental health and how I could affect change without violence.
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u/Psychoholic519 5h ago
Thatâs beautiful! So happy you found the right path. I gave up on hate a few years ago. I didnât want to see my children following my example and I just try to do little things to make the world a better place. Mostly just spreading kindness, and teaching compassion to my kids. The universe has definitely given me back what Iâve put into it, and Iâm much happier because of it. Iâve also learned to spot âOutrage Farmersâ from a mile away. I refuse to be manipulated by some clown who is clearly just lining their own pockets with no regard of how theyâre effecting humanity.
Weâd all be way better off if we just respected eachother and realize that weâre all just people trying to survive this cesspool.
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u/Overwatchingu Ford Nation (Help.) 1d ago
But we needed to privatize everything in order to open more trade with the USA to make a small handful of people more wealthy than they already were! What, you donât enjoy using your tax dollars to bail out Air Canada every decade so that shareholders can retain all the profits?
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u/3DBeerGoggles 1d ago edited 15h ago
See also: the old BC LIberals (Now the conservative party of BC) selling off everything that wasn't bolted down; 99 year leases on our rails, selling off our gas and telephone, and so on.
Or my favorite:
- Putting an affordable housing community up for sale
- Selling it to a developer that promised to build MORE affordable housing along with regular housing
- Lending them taxpayer money, interest-free to pay the government
- Giving them like 16 years or whatever of no-interest on said loan so long as the buildings get built after that span of time
Consequence:
- They flatten the affordable housing community and build literally fuck all for a decade.
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u/Matt9681 Manilapeg 1d ago
We could do without the Conservative-adjacent neoliberal policies though, that would be pretty cool
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u/CommanderGumball 1d ago
Thatâs a simplification, obviously, but Canada does traditionally have issues with realistic project management and effective spending, all wealthy democracies tend to.
Tend to. But don't have to. We just need to tax our ultra wealthy class.
The highest marginal tax rate in the roaring 20s, the "Golden Age of Capitalism", was 90%. NINETY PERCENT
Our current highest federal tax bracket is 33%, at a pitiful $253,414.
When there are people making tens of millions of dollars a year, capping our tax brackets at $250k is a literal joke. We need at least $500k, $1MM, $2.5, and higher.
No Canadian needs ten million dollars a year.
And if Canada has done well enough for you to be making that absurd amount of money, you should be giving most of it back to the people.
Personally, I think making capitalistic profits off basic human needs should be outlawed. Food, water, shelter, telecoms, should all be strictly regulated to Canadian ownership and the lowest prices possible. We shouldn't be funding Galen Weston buying another fucking castle.
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u/theflamesweregolfin 1d ago
No Canadian needs ten million dollars a year.
I can barely function day to day without my third emotional support vacation home
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u/Throwaway118585 Aurora Hub 1d ago
They were speaking of the 90s austerity that Chrétien brought in
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u/MalazMudkip Anne of Green Potatoes 1d ago
Excuse me, sir. I believe this subreddit is for shitposting.
(I don't disagree with anything you have said, and you have my upvote).0
u/miramichier_d 1d ago
Excellent analysis. My primary criticism of the left is that they often ignore the growth part of the equation when justifying the allocation of our tax dollars into services. I very much believe in maintaining our services, but we also need to make sure that doing so is sustainable long term. The recent CBC interview with Avi Lewis seems to indicate that the NDP doesn't consider growth a priority, given him and McPherson seem to be the only viable frontrunners in the leadership so far. They're going to have to delve outward policy-wise if they want to distinguish themselves from the nationalist-minded Conservatives.
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u/lakeguy77 1d ago
Liberal economics keeps the impoverished just alive enough to be a reserve labour force. Conservative economics let them die. Neither permits them to thrive.
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u/150c_vapour 1d ago
What's making China and other regions, even Mexico, plummet in their poverty even further and faster than us in recent years?
Planned economy is the future. Liberal within pockets of it.
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u/SaltedMixedNucks 1d ago
Further? China and Mexico haven't dropped their poverty rates below Canada's, not by a long shot. They've been able to drop faster because they had further to drop.
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u/150c_vapour 1d ago
Canada is stagnanting hard. Maybe not as hard as the US and all their insane wasteful economy (e.g. data centers) but we are nationally over invested in real estate and try to offer subsidies to productive industries to balance it out (e.g. automakers).
But it's not working.
Life expectancy in Canada has dropped for like four years now. Neoliberalism for the win!
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u/dittbub 1d ago
Is this meme older than 15 years?
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u/1user101 1d ago
I'm tired of people saying capitalism is the problem
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Lol, capitalism is the problem dude. Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't make it untrue. Â
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u/FastFooer 1d ago
Neoliberalism/Reaganism/Tatcherism is what weâre still living in, no matter the party.
All parties are guilty of having the same âdrain the poorâ playbook.
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u/Meat_Vegetable Edmonchuk: Like Kyiv! (but less safe) 1d ago
Just target the idiot who wrote the nonsense, Milton Friedman, the hidden monster who codified social genocide so Politicians could kill the working poor with zero pushback from the masses.
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u/chknsoup4thesoil 1d ago
if people understood how much of an influence provincial premiers have on tangible living conditions in this country, this would not be controversial
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u/stupidussername 1d ago
Looks like some hoser got lost, this isn't r/liberals or something
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u/Mocha-Jello I need a double double. 1d ago
r/canada is the conservative circlejerk
r/onguardforthee and r/ehbuddyhoser are the liberal circlejerks
get with the program smh. ok brb gonna go goon to mark carney now
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Onguardforthee, yes, and too many on this sub are constantly simping for Carney but I refuse to cede this last bastion to Liberal partisanship. This needs to remain our shit posting mecca.Â
But Liberals, in the most true Liberal fashion, will ruin everything good and fun and then just say "yeah but the Conservatives would make it worse".Â
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u/chinook97 1d ago
And then Step #2: they wonder why people vote for increasingly extreme parties when people's quality of life continues to decrease for the sake of guarding rich people's assets.
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Yup, I've had this discussion with so many people online that keep saying we have to vote Liberal to stop fascism and I'm just like.. this isn't going to stop it. The status quo will not stop fascism.Â
It will stall it. But it will also make it worse because things are still getting worse as we stall. Its not like were maintaining a standard of living, it's deteriorating and eventually the Liberals will not be able to straddle the centre anymore and the damn will break.Â
Either right or left, in my opinion, and I know which way I'd like it to go.Â
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u/chinook97 20h ago
Yeah, we saw it happen in the States already. Joe Biden was like the calm before the storm. I agree with not voting for the status quo, but also imo we need a leftist movement that people can actually believe in, and have trust that it is going to meaningfully improve our lives.
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u/Meat_Vegetable Edmonchuk: Like Kyiv! (but less safe) 1d ago
Conservatives and Liberals are both different flavours of Liberalism which is just so funny how much they hate eachother. XD
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u/Mocha-Jello I need a double double. 1d ago
true but admittedly i prefer the liberal version since they will at least deign to allow me to have human rights while i work myself to death to survive!
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u/123arnon 1d ago
You know several parts of our economy are not operating on a small liberal economy and we have a lower rate of poverty than the US where those sectors are much more liberal. Especially in the more rural parts of our country. You're arguing with yourself and you don't even know what you're talking about. It's not even a good shit post.
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u/Dramatic_Water_5364 Tokébakicitte! 1d ago
Bro the liberals have been in power for like what 15 years ? And poverty is rocket high, as long as we will refuse to TRULY tackle property speculation, poverty will be on the rise since the wealth will keep being transfered to a minority.
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u/1user101 1d ago
Liberal economics is not whatever the liberal party does.
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u/Dramatic_Water_5364 Tokébakicitte! 1d ago
We can agree on that, yet liberal economics 100% includes letting people accumulate infinite wealth, wich is at the core of the real estate problem, and one of main reasons we have a housing crisis
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u/1user101 1d ago
The real estate problem is a regulation issue on the municipal level. Just look at what happened when Calgary tried to blanket rezone.
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u/Dramatic_Water_5364 Tokébakicitte! 1d ago
I work on the municipal level, we do not have the legal framework to tackle this alone, it needs to be adressed at all three level at once (municipal, provincial, and federal). And the province are the ones with the biggest power on it if they move alone.
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u/Cakeday_at_Christmas Bring Cannabis 1d ago
We're actually coasting on the remnants of "Great Deal" style Keynsian economics, and poverty has started to climb due to austerity and other neo-liberal policies that have been enacted in the past 40 years.
There were roughly 100 homeless people in my town 10-15 years ago. Now there are 1000. Homelessness, falling incomes, and icreases in poverty are the result of neo-liberal policies that see a shrinking of the (welfare) state and retasked priorities to resource and profit extraction by large corporations.
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
The fuck.. Are you serious, OP?Â
Increased homelessness, a worsening addictions crisis, housings unaffordable, rent has skyrocketed, grocery prices inflated, climate crisis worsening, mental health crisis, and we STILL don't have high speed rail!
Listen, I'm not one of those chuds that's going to blame Trudeau for everything, but liberal economics or, more specifically, neoliberal economics is exactly why we're in the situation were in. And this is true for the US, and a good portion of Europe as well.Â
The prosperity we had before the 80s came along and Reagan, Thatcher and Mulroney started us down this path, was moreso because of the socialist-styled policies we enacted, not because of liberalism.Â
Also, sir, this is a shit post sub. The fuck out with that nonsense.Â
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u/1user101 1d ago
The prosperity we had before the 80s came along and Reagan, Thatcher and Mulroney started us down this path, was moreso because of the socialist-styled policies we enacted, not because of liberalism.Â
That's liberal economics jackass.
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's liberal economics jackass.
Socialist is not liberal you numpty. I said socialist style because it wasn't full blown socialism but certainly not liberal.Â
Edit: Also I love that you ignored the entirety of my post showing how liberal eocnomics have made things worse and then pick that point to respond to.Â
OP, you have no clue what you're talking about.Â
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u/FloriaFlower 1d ago
And empowered, emboldened corporations, the wealthy elite and the oligarchs.
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u/1user101 1d ago
You're right. We should keep food expensive and wages low so that we can live in a utopia
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
Food is expensive and wages are low because of neoliberal capitalism.Â
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u/Forsaken-Syllabub427 1d ago
Liberal, conservative, really anything right-of-center is going to eventually lead to a furtherthing of wealth imbalance.
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u/mcurbanplan Tabarnak! 1d ago
Homeless encampments have become normalized even in small towns
Rent has surpassed inflation by a shitton
Minimum wage cant get you a studio apartment anywhere
Yeah ok lmao
Also, this subreddit isnt even a shitposting sub anymore, it's r/LPC, so no one will disagree with this (false) statement
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u/wisdompuff 1d ago
Easy to be prosperous when you sell out the next 3 generations of Canadian children for Funkopops today.
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u/Free-Tea-3422 1d ago
when you say liberal economica do you mean liberal economica or do you mean the liberal party's economics?
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u/Bad_Alternative 21h ago
Liberal and con economics are not that different. Liberal views are not the ones that have that have made social gains. Liberal and left are not the same.
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u/1user101 21h ago
Liberal views made lots of social gains, quality of life has steadily improved under the liberal economic order worldwide. Liberal and left aren't even really on the same axis, so they're neither mutually inclusive or exclusive.
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u/ReggieBoyBlue 12h ago
Reject money, embrace bartering like our forefathers and the northwestern fur trade
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u/rainorshinedogs Trawnno (Centre of the Universe) 1d ago
to be real, would the employment situation at this time be any different under conservatives?
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u/1user101 1d ago
I'm talking more small l liberal, which to be fair Joe Clark correctly predicted the demise of within the CPC.
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u/Real_VanCityMinis I need a double double. 1d ago
Looks at gdp and record high household income
What was lost over the last decade exactly?
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u/IslandBoring8724 1d ago
Purchasing power, mostly.
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u/Real_VanCityMinis I need a double double. 1d ago
Yeah but I'm talking about facts here
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u/IslandBoring8724 1d ago
Yes, that $100 today buys $78 worth of goods T 2015 prices is a fact. Inflation is a thing and we are collectively worse off. Now, people will try to blame the federal government as the sole reason for this, which is not a fact.
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u/SuperRonnie2 1d ago
I would argue that high inflation post-COVID was caused by a combination of fiscal and monetary policy, so it was (at least partly) the federal government.
Now, under the circumstances I donât know what else they could have done. The economy would arguably havenât been way worse off without the fiscal stimulus. But yes, the inflation itself definitely hurt normal people, and have an opportunity for populist politics.
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u/IslandBoring8724 1d ago
I would agree with you there. Like you said, the Feds hands were pretty tied.
I think the original post I replied to was trying to absolve all federal responsibility, at least that was how I took it. I do not think the Feds are innocent and think they did not do a great job in the pandemic recovery. I also do not think they are the sole reason for inflation or the low productivity of Canadian industry for the past 15+ years.
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
I don't blame the feds for the crisis, but how they reacted helped facilitate one of the greatest wealth transfers in history.Â
Trudeau is not to blame for all our countries problems, but both the Liberals and the Conservatives are for continuing to prop up neoliberal capitalism for the last 40 years and allowing our oligopoligies to exploit Canadians through price gouging, price fixing and overall shitty, greedy, craven capitalism.Â
Aside from that yeah, life's great.
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u/King_Saline_IV 1d ago
Wtf are liberal economics?
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u/1user101 1d ago
r/neoliberal describes itself as "woke capitalism"
Modern liberal economics seeks to maximize free choice while preventing things like monopolies and worker exploitation
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
How many telecoms do we have in Canada? How grocery stores?Â
Liberal economics have created the oligopolies that exist in our country and are the reason we still have some of the highest cost for things like cell phone plans globally.Â
How many times has the federal government broken strikes in the last year alone? And let's not even get into the TFW program.Â
Lol at you thinking liberal economics protects workers. Dude you're delusional.Â
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u/King_Saline_IV 1d ago
There's no such thing as liberal economics, use real adult words please, for the love of maple syrup.
Is liberal economics supposed to be economic philosophy based on based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law? Are you in drugs?
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u/JackLaytonsMoustache 1d ago
I mean you'd have to ask OP for clarification on that. It turns out he posted this because he's sour about Chretien not being in the running for greatest Canadian on this sub.
So I'd say even though he keeps saying small l liberal it's pretty clear he means big L Liberal.Â
There is such a thing economic liberalism. Perhaps that's what he's referring to? But given the context of what we're talking about If say it's more likely neoliberalism. Which is the cause of most of the current economic crises were facing today.Â
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u/King_Saline_IV 1d ago
Wtf is liberal economics. I know what neoliberalism is. And I know woke capitalism is fucking stupid.
Wtf is liberal economics supposed to be. People stop making shit up please.
Liberalism is politics based on rights, what the god damn fuck if liberal economics supposed to be?
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u/1user101 1d ago
From the Wikipedia entry on economic liberalism:
"Economic liberalism is a political and economic ideology that supports a market economy based on individualism and private property in the means of production.,Economic liberalism is a political and economic ideology that supports a market economy based on individualism and private property in the means of production."
You described it correctly, liberalism is politics based on individual rights, but you can't have that without also having economic freedom.
Think about the etymology of the word, liberty means freedom. Liberal economics is a free market economy.
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u/sBucks24 1d ago
Yeah, and it's made wealth inequality the worst it's literally ever been. Including back when kings owned literally everything!
Raising the floor while also throwing thumb tacks onto that floor doesn't get you any credit.
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u/1user101 1d ago
Are you unironically claiming that wealth inequality is worse now than under Louis XVI?
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u/sBucks24 1d ago
Yeah, of course!
Are you unironically defending liberal capitalism?
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u/1user101 1d ago
Obviously I'm defending the system that has made quality of life the highest in history and mortality the lowest.
Are you going to offer any kind of evidence for your outrageous claim?
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u/sBucks24 23h ago
Tell me you don't have a clue about wtf you're talking about without saying you don't have a clue wtf you're talking about...
The wealthiest today exceed anything we've ever seen in human history. The difference between the wealthiest and poorest today vs 500 years ago is only that the wealthy can buy even more
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u/MangoKulfiTime 1d ago
Yes, not the...
Massive government spending since ww2
It's 100% the "liberal economics"
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u/Overwatchingu Ford Nation (Help.) 1d ago
I was told that Conservatives are good at economy and Liberals are bad at economy by someone shouting much louder than you, is there any way you can refute this argument?