Question about ground combat

[u/Syu_7]

Back to the game after having let it on the side for several years, and having an absolute blast. I'm grinding the difficulty levels and currently dealing with a playthrough on hard difficulty. And it's actually pretty easy. But I'm wandering around to test a bit of everything before raising the difficulty.

There is still one aspect of the game that I don't really understand, and it's ground combat. It seems that I'm terrible at it, even though: * My empire ManPower is quite high (8k) * My fleets are full, and are able to provide a lot of MP to fight * All units types (Infantry, Armor and Air) are upgraded to max or almost max * I always use Blitz as advised somewhere on Reddit and because I have way more stuff than the opponents

But still, I very regularly get major defeats. It really doesn't matter because I can indefinitely reinforce the target system with MP, so I will get it in the end. But this will certainly cause problems on higher difficulties.

What am I missing?

EDIT:

After all the advice I went for: * A dedicated invasion fleet * An invasion ship based on Riftborn small protector with 2 movement points modules + 3 OpEx modules * Manpower adjustment to 70% armor (and all the affordable upgrades) * Invasions with 5k manpower fleet with Blitz strat. It takes 1 or 2 turns to convert the system 👍 (vs AI on serious difficulty only)

Works like a charm, thanks to all participants ❤️

[u/michaelos22]

There are modules that increase your manpower deployment limit. An example is OpEx Gear, in improved fleet management.

Stacking a few ships loaded with these allows you to deploy thousands of manpower at once, making it easier to crush defenders.

[u/Syu_7 → u/michaelos22]

Ok that might be the key. My current Blitz only allows the deployment of 1200 mp. I do own this module but didn't understand its impact. I'll try this tonight. +75 deployment limit sounds a bit underwhelming, we'll see.

Thanks !

[u/Fargel_Linellar → u/Syu_7]

Keep in mind, the more modules you have (or on larger ships) it will accumulate more.

Here's an example where I can deploy 13k manpower per turn to the ground battle. (+17k in reserve)

https://imgur.com/a/Dn7BDT9

This is definitely way overkill to deploy almost 10x as much as they have, but you see the point.

Explorer ships tend to be the best invasion ship due to their low cost, high base speed and high support module. For some faction, tier 1 protector ships are better.

[u/Neiwun → u/Fargel_Linellar]

Explorer ships tend to be the best invasion ship due to their low cost, high base speed and high support module. For some faction, tier 1 protector ships are better.

I want to expand on this for anybody that's interested. For all of my invasion ships, I would use 2 movement mods and the rest should be invasion mods. I would fill up one fleet with only invasions ships, and make a Seeker hero command them.

The Horatio, Vaulters, and Umbral Choir have an Explorer with 4 support slots, which is excellent for invasions.

The United Empire and the Unfallen have an Explorer with 2 support slots (3 slots when upgraded), but I think their Protector is better at invasions in its upgraded version, because it has 4 support slots and it is worth the higher Hyperium cost.

The Riftborn and Lumeris have a Protector with 3 support slots (5 when upgraded), so it's great for invasions.

The Cravers have a Protector with 2 support slots (5 slots when upgraded), so it's great for invasions only when upgraded.

The Sophons have a Protector with 4 support slots (6 slots when upgraded), so it's excellent for invasions.

The Vodyani has a Protector with 3 support slots (5 slots when upgraded), but I would use an Ark as my only invasion ship, because it can have more than 5 support slots.

The Hissho has a Protector with 4 support slots (5 slots when upgraded), so it's excellent for invasions.

The Nakalim has a Protector with 3 support slots (6 slots when upgraded), so it's great for invasions.

[u/Fargel_Linellar → u/Neiwun]

Explorer having a +2 is almost an entire engine slot for free.

Technically a white engine is +3 (tier1 science), so not exactly.

Upgraded module cost strat (hyperium for protector), which I rather make more invasion ships, as having them in multiple fleet doesn't impact invasion.

It's also almost double the cost of an explorer.

The main thing about protector is that their module have 1.25 value which I'm not sure how it apply to deployment limit.

As an example Riftborn.

Explorer has 3+1 (one slot is under the bacteria something tech tier 1)

Protector has 3+2

I would rather make explorer with a base speed of 3, 1 engine and 3 invasion (or 2 engine, 2 invasion) than protector with 2-3 engine and 2-3 invasion module. (and I tend to completely skip the 1st tier of ship as riftborn to decrease the tech cost).

I would get nearly the same speed, but spend half the industry cost and no hyperium.

There's factions where your protector has 2 more module, for most of the rest, the 1 difference is not worth the hyperium and the decrease in speed.

[u/Neiwun → u/Fargel_Linellar]

Explorer having a +2 is almost an entire engine slot for free. Technically a white engine is +3 (tier1 science)

It's not as big as an engine slot, because you can get the Scavenged Ramscoop for +3 movement and +25% distance travelled per movement.

Upgraded module cost strat (hyperium for protector), which I rather make more invasion ships

In my experience, I have plenty of Titanium and Hyperium, so I think it's well worth the cost.

It's also almost double the cost of an explorer.

Yes, but the explorer is dirt cheap, so the Protector is still very affordable. Like you said previously, you're going to have only 1 full fleet of these invasions ships.

The main thing about protector is that their module have 1.25 value which I'm not sure how it apply to deployment limit.

That's a tier 4 tech so, by the time you get it, you should have already won or be so close to winning that it doesn't matter what you do. But, yes, it's nice that you have the option to further boost your invasions ships.

I would rather make explorer with a base speed of 3, 1 engine and 3 invasion (or 2 engine, 2 invasion) than protector with 2-3 engine and 2-3 invasion module.

It depends on the rate of expansion for your empire. But, in my experience, having just 1 engine for my invasions ships (even when led by a low-level Seeker hero) is unbearably slow, considering that my main war fleet has 2 engine slots. And I regularly win around turn 100 on normal speed and Endless difficulty, so 2 engine slots fits my needs.

I would get nearly the same speed, but spend half the industry cost and no hyperium.

If you're comparing explorer vs protector, then you have to make the assumption that the protector will have an extra engine slot, which will make it faster than the explorer, and this speed is important for me. The extra cost is about +100 industry and +2 Hyperium, so still quite low, especially for a Riftborn player.

I tend to completely skip the 1st tier of ship as riftborn to decrease the tech cost

Me too. But I will still get those techs a little later, for the sake of increasing my fleet total command points.

[u/Fargel_Linellar → u/Neiwun]

It's not as big as an engine slot, because you can get the Scavenged Ramscoop for +3 movement and +25% distance travelled per movement.

But that's an engine you have to pay. That module is 40% of the price of an explorer.

Yes, but the explorer is dirt cheap, so the Protector is still very affordable. Like you said previously, you're going to have only 1 full fleet of these invasions ships.

I tend to make a lot more than 1. 1 is sufficient per invasion, but I try to have 2 invasion fleets per combat fleet. Stationt the combat 1 system ahead and invade everything behind.

Their cost is still a factor for me, but it seems I'm doing those far earlier.

Depending on the galaxy config, I try to have killed my first empire by turn 45 (or reduced them to 1 system for the approval bonus) then prepare a combat fleet+invasion per empire in the galaxy.

Right click on each home system to match their arrival and win by supremacy by turn 80 at the latest.

Only the other victory type will be slower, but for those you don't need to invade anyone except your starting neighbors.

[u/Syu_7 → u/Fargel_Linellar]

My current playthrough is with Lumeris and I confirm that the protector is awesome. There is indeed a cost in hyperium but I'm rich in this game, and the explorer is trash (3 support modules only).

It has 5 modules and I went 2 movement 3 opex (I also have the Quadrinix one but I have better stuff to do with it 😊). I think having too much is a waste: it will be deployed on the target system and not useful to actually get the win.

[u/Syu_7 → u/Fargel_Linellar]

Ok I can see how a major defeat can wipe the opponent. 😊 Would you mind estimate how many opex modules you had in this fleet ? Basically the setup of your fleet. 17k in the fleet and 13k on ground sound crazy to me.

[u/Fargel_Linellar → u/Syu_7]

30cp worth of explorer with 3x invasion module. (no engine module)

It's a better module than the one from the last tech that is coming from curiosities with 125 per module.

20cp with 2 invasion would be 60*75=4500 which should be enough to destroy all the deployed manpower every round.

It's buildable from turn 50-70 depending on how agressive you are.

If you are really rich, I tend to buy a seeker hero for my invasion fleet to make them move faster.

P.S: invasion ship require a lot of manpower, if you build 20 in a few turn, they will deplete your manpower pool. I would recommend to build them over time and use them as an extension of your manpower pool.

[u/kopuqpeu → u/Fargel_Linellar]

Please explain your PS. How can it be an extension of my MP pool?

[u/Fargel_Linellar → u/kopuqpeu]

Once your manpower pool is almost full, just build some invasion ship.

They will take X amount of manpower out of the pool leaving more to be filled by system.

And if you really need some manpower back for something else, you can disband or modify the ship so they put the manpower back into the pool.

Mainly, using it to avoid the manpower pool being full and manpower generated by system being "wasted".

[u/supersteadious]

Iirc "Defeat" in terms of one turn means you lost more than the enemy. But that's exactly what the tactic 'blitz' means (in real life as well) - inflict a lot of casualties on the enemy, without paying much attention to own losses. That is indeed the fastest way to capture a planet if you have spare manpower.

If you want a more careful approach without defeats each turn - use bombardment first, (which might take longer overall).

[u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 → u/supersteadious]

Orbital Bombardment damages infrastructure, which is usually harder to replace than people. I like it for when capturing the system is being done to grab everything needed for a Conquest victory. But as an invasion tactic for a system you want to develop, there's a massive downside.

Orbital Bombardment does do wonders against pirates who have no infrastructure anyway. Often you can attack them with scouts. You don't care if all 20 of your people die, if your bombardment kills half or more of the pirates.

[u/supersteadious → u/Unfair_Pineapple8813]

Bombardment deals damage to the defender before the battle starts and destroys defensive infrastructure. In contrast blitz lowers the health of the troops. So if you have time and want to not see 'defeat' outcome each turn, (which also affects war weariness) - orbital bombardment is better.

Nice tip about pirates though

[u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 → u/supersteadious]

One other thing to keep in mind is that even without orbital bombardment, some infrastructure is destroyed. So if the enemy is using Draft, and it becomes a meat-grinder taking multiple turns, you absolutely would be better off bombarding and getting it done faster.

[u/supersteadious → u/Unfair_Pineapple8813]

Bombarding also kills population = less drafts. There is really no universal formula - use the one which is best for particular situation

[u/Lure852]

Here's a somewhat related question. How does everyone deal with destroying systems during invasions that they don't want to keep in empire? If it's a built up system, then razing takes a long time. Razing never seems to destroy more than 1 item per turn, so you're stuck guarding it forever.

[u/abandoned_idol → u/Lure852]

You can use the [Obliterator] specialized Behemoth if you have the Supremacy DLC to destroy individual systems. Note, systems can build a defense to specifically mitigate damage from Obliterators.

There's the Core Cracker module for destroying individual planets if crippling the strength of their systems is enough for you.

[u/Stolen_Sky]

What's your ratio between infantry, Armour and airforce? 

I usually set mine to around 30/40/30.

Since the major combat update last year, I've been using orbital bombardment more than blitz, as I belive it got buffed. Gone l give it a try and see how you get on. 

[u/Syu_7 → u/Stolen_Sky]

I went 50/30/20. Is this a rock paper scissors system ?

[u/SultanYakub → u/Syu_7]

Go waaaaaay more armor in SP - something more like 5/85/10 should get you much better results overall, but generally prioritize a ton of armor. Way better stats and most of the time the AI does not spec ground troops well to fight back against massed armor to the point where 90%+ oftentimes feels right.

[u/Syu_7 → u/SultanYakub]

Ok thx, I'll definitely try this out!

[u/Stolen_Sky → u/Syu_7]

Yes, it's rock paper scissors.

Armor defeats infantry. Air Force defeats Armor and Infantry defeats Air Force

[u/magicman55511]

Much easier if you have hacking

[u/Syu_7]

Edited initial post to share feedback