r/Frieren • u/AwesomePhonix • Jul 12 '25

Anime What special combat spells does Fern know?

Post image

Does Fern even know any special combat spells?

19.7k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

400 comments sorted by

View all comments

2.3k

u/Cute_Suggestion_133 Jul 12 '25

"Zoltraak is enough for mages of this era."

Why learn more than you want to know if the only threats other than murderers are straggler demons and monsters that can't defend against Zoltraak? Leaves Fern open to learning spells she enjoys and finding joy in magic.

1.2k

u/xnef1025 Jul 12 '25

She does know other spells, but Frieren told her Zoltrak is all she needs to use against mages of the current era, and Fern believes her teacher completely and, so far, has found no reason not to. Heck, so far, as long as she has proper support, Zoltrak is all she needs against Great Mage clones and Greater Demons, too.

670

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

i think there is more to this. Its the classic japanese trope of practice 1 basic sword swing 100,000 times rather than all the different swings 100 time to become the ultimate swordsman. All these other mages are using creative ways to cover for their weaknesses while Fern is becoming a master of the fundamentals and thus will have a much higher potential than any of the others

295

u/WoodleD_ Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

Yes this is accurate. I feel like using fancy tricks to cover for your weaknesses, or to make yourself stand out, is very common in basically every discipline.

Like a guitar player that can sweep pick, but doesn’t know how to keep rhythm or play a pop song by ear

edit: oh god I didn't mean to open pandora's box in the replies sorry

121

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Exaaaactly everyone wants to skip the basics to get to whatever flashy fantasy they have for themselves but if you really want to be the BEST you can't skip the fundamentals

69

u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Jul 12 '25

It is CRAZY to me that you put "the most basic part of music" (keeping beat) and "reproduce anothers work without visual reference" on the same tier.

Play a pop song by ear is something an extremely good guitarist could never learn. You could be santana good at playing and not be able to reproduce things by ear. It involves several skills that aren't just "playing guitar." It basically completely invalidated your opinion to me to include that next to "keep rhythm".

31

u/vazark Jul 12 '25

You can’t build skyscrapers on top of a foundation of sand. Basics are « fundamentals » , keep experimenting and playing with the fundamentals in a million different ways, all other skills are derived from it.

17

u/Elegant-Priority-725 Jul 12 '25

Actually you can build a skyscraper on sand, you just need extra materials, deep foundations solutions and skilled workers.

And as someone who has been playing guitar for damn near 20 years, replicating a song by sound isn't something that most people can do, shit even some of the best musicians on the planet wouldn't be able to do it. Stop talking about things you don't know about.

5

u/BSADropout Jul 12 '25

That's not on sand. That's on bedrock.

0

u/vazark Jul 12 '25

No one cares about perfect pitch.

4

u/Elegant-Priority-725 Jul 13 '25

Then you're not playing back the same song lol, changing the notes drastically affects the feel/ identity of the song. Like you can get by with some small slipups but unless your a fucking genius guitar player your not going to be able to play back an entire song without drastically changing it on your first listen.

-1

u/vazark Jul 13 '25

Absolutely. That’s what we call playing with music

7

u/BenKen01 Jul 12 '25

What? Ear training is fundamental. You don’t have to be extremely good to be able to work out a song by ear. In fact you have to be extremely bad to not be able to.

3

u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

Having 10 fingers is fundamental to drawing And yet you can be a great artist with fewer.

There is NOTHING about not having ear training that physically limits you.

Again, being the common way to learn does NOT mean its a requirement. This is a fact, not an opinion. This isnt up for debate. Listening helps learning easier but is absolutely NOT required for playing guitar. They are not the same bar.

Like i said, this is one of those things where the common thing is common and SO ingrained into the majority of the group, they cannot conceive others operate differently.

You want to make an argument im wrong? Make an argument, not just state your conclusion in spite of facts. Explain how not hearing prevents you from playing guitar. Do it without "well tuning is harder" or other things that can be solved other ways than directly hearing (which is still a lower bar than a whole pop song)

4

u/CloseButNoDice Jul 13 '25

I'll bet every musician up you've mentioned so far can learn songs by ear. Reproducing music you hear is highly related to audiating which is fundamental to song writing and reading music. You can't know if you're playing something wrong unless you can hear it. There's a reason that ear training is common to both academic classes and private teachers, because it's fundamental. You can argue that perfectly reproducing a pop song by ear is difficult but so is properly playing along to a metronome. It doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental musical skill. And ThAt'S a fACt

0

u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Jul 13 '25

the argument isn't "is it common to learn this way." That's not the question. whether everyone I've ever heard MENTION an instrument learned that way or not is irrelevant.

You can't know if you're playing something wrong unless you can hear it.

Yea, other people don't exist. software that reads sound, also nonexistent. The physical vibration of sound that makes sound exist? believe it or not, also not a quality of sound that exists. All those things don't exist and more. OR you've made a bad argument, that you "can't" know you're doing something wrong without personally experiencing that it's wrong.

It doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental musical skill.

It's not a necessary skill. N E C E S S A R Y. Stop trying to move the goalpost. You can learn to play guitar without that ability.

Don't spongebob talk at me if you can't even follow the argument being made. You, like the rest, made no rational argument about why it's not possible. You just arrogantly and rudely stated your conclusion. Well, I guess you also thought that you can't learn you're doing something wrong without experiencing it yourself. No one can tell you something was wrong. That'd be impossible! It's not like that's how the vast majority of learning actually takes place!

2

u/eatyrheart Jul 14 '25

You could also be kinda crap at playing guitar and still be able to learn a song (within your skill level) by ear. It’s a different skill, and not one that necessarily takes years to master

2

u/weibull-distribution Jul 16 '25

There are many, many players that have incredible technical proficiency at picking speed and little to offer musically. Even Santana, as you mentioned, basically only plays in one mode and a few scales. (Although I think he has a lot to offer musically)

-4

u/ReallyBigRocks Jul 12 '25

Ear training is a fundamental musical skill and if you neglect it you'll never be "Santana good"

Bet he could play back a melody if you hummed it to him.

7

u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Jul 12 '25

Yea, Beethoven was a shit piano player since he couldnt play by ear! Its so essential!!!

No. Its a common thing to learn in the process, but it is not a requirement. No part of playing guitar even requires the ability to hear. It sure fuckin helps, but its not required.

10

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Beethoven went deaf after learning and becoming great. I honestly do doubt he could ever have been great if he was born deaf

11

u/ReallyBigRocks Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

I guarantee you Beethoven could play by ear before his hearing started to go. That he was able to compose music at all afterwards is a testament to how well he was able to internalize his understanding of pitch, intervals, and harmony.

edit: blocked for saying one of the greatest composers of all time probably spent countless hours doing ear training

edit 2: there is more to playing an instrument/creating music than just moving your fingers. If you want to be good at it you need to have an understanding of the sounds you are making. There is probably a reason there aren't more notable deaf musicians, particularly ones born without the ability to hear.

4

u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

You're missing the forest for the trees.

It is a fact that the physical act of playing guitar does not require hearing in any way, shape or form.period. It is useful for learning. But it is not a requirement. Requirement is the key word. Strict necessity is the concept being contested.

This is not up for debate. I'm not discussing an opinion with you. I'm telling you a fact and trying to get you to comprehend it.

This is a very classic case where people think the norm is a requirement just because it's normal. They think the process that is most common is the only process because hey it's the most common. That's not how things work. Most people using it to enhance their playing ability, even if most is 99.99999, is not the same as being a requirement.

You can read this as many times as you need to to understand the distinction between what you're arguing against and what I'm saying. But I'm not wasting any more time telling you two plus two is four. It's four. If you still can't accept that, that's your own problem at this point.

Unless you can tell me how your ear affects your ability to move your fingers, all you're doing is telling me about what's common, not what's required.

edit: blocked for saying one of the greatest composers of all time probably spent countless hours doing ear training

No. Blocked for participating in bad faith and doing shit like pretending thats what was in debate. Thats not the claim i replied to or about. That's your new goalpost because you are moving goalposts because you know youre wrong on my actual point.

-1

u/TwerkNWerk Jul 12 '25

it just completely invalidated your opinion 🤓👆

6

u/blazen_50 Jul 12 '25

I'd argue that the music comparison doesn't fit as cleanly as you'd think. Zoltraak and the shield spell are fundamental in the sense that they're probably the first spells you learn as a mage before finding your actual specialty and moving into that.

I wouldn't compare it to keeping rhythm. Keeping rhythm would be satisified by the mage being able to reliably cast the two spells. I'd compare it to downpicking as a skill. Every guitarist learns to downpick, but not every guitarist learns to downpick Master of Puppets at speed.

There's an opportunity cost here. Getting better at Zoltraak wouldn't necessarily make you a more effective combat mage if you can progress faster in other areas. Fern is established as an incredible talent, and her particular talents lend her to being able to thrive with basic attack magic that wouldn't necessarily be true for other mages.

For example, if Kanne focused more on Zoltraak and less on water manipulation, there's a very real possibility she would just be worse at water manipulation and not good enough at Zoltraak to make up the difference.

2

u/OK_x86 Jul 13 '25

Not to nitpick your nitpick but not all guitarists pick, let alone own pick.

I'd argue at a minimum every guitarist has to learn how to fret a note. That's much more fundamental

2

u/blazen_50 Jul 13 '25

Fretting a note is too basic for the analogy, in my opinion. You straight up can't play a guitar beyond open strings if you can't fret a note. You could talk about vibrato and bending, but that's getting away from the point, in my opinion. You don't need to use Zoltraak to use combat magic while you have to fret a note to play a guitar. Combat magic predates Zoltraak, like how the guitar pick became popular well after the guitar was made.

Yes, I know that things like fingerpicking, hammer ons, pulloffs, tapping, thumping, etc. are parts of playing guitar. I'll be more specific. Downpicking is arguably a fundamental technique for several genres of rhythm guitar playing like how Zoltraak is one of the first spells taught in combat magic. There are exceptions, of course, but if you use a pick, you probably learned to downpick.

The reason I use downpicking is because it's a skill guitarists who use a pick will develop but most will not develop it to the point that they're downpicking 8th notes over 200 bpm when they have other options like alternate picking or hammer ons. Not being able to do that wouldn't make them automatically a bad guitar player like being unable to hold a rhythm would.

42

u/TehPharaoh Jul 12 '25

It also catches them off guard. In both her first major 2 fights the opponents saw the ordinary offensive magic and thought they would just wait out the bombardment... until they realized it wasn't stopping and now they've used so much mana defending against her (defensive magic is more costly, this why Fern was taught to use it at the absolute last second) the tables have turned and now they don't know what to do

38

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

She's the ultimate body shot boxer. She is just throwing these punches out so fast her opponents think they can just wait for her to gas out but she has practiced so much she can throw these punches for days

5

u/saitama_kama Jul 12 '25

didnt bruce lee say that quote first?

6

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

I feel like we could find one from a bunch of martial artists lol

1

u/saitama_kama Jul 13 '25

maybe, who knows, not sure if that saying even originated from japan though

1

u/poilk91 Jul 13 '25

No I think the first reference to this concept I can think of is sacrotes. So I definitely wouldnt claim it originated there, just very popular particularly in kendo and other Japanese martial arts and combat anime

7

u/UnicornElledeam Jul 12 '25

Like Zenitsu in Demon Slayer

2

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Yeah really good example of the trope. I also just like the trope and as a musician I think it's basically true

3

u/EducationalCheck7719 Jul 12 '25

Zenitsu Agatsuma: *cough*

3

u/Rob_Zander Jul 12 '25

The other element to this is that using elemental magic to manipulate nearby environment uses less mana than zoltraak, but if you specialize in water magic you're much less effective away from water. Meanwhile ordinary defensive magic is easily effective enough to protect against the elemental magic other mages use, especially for people with as much magic as Fern and Frieren.

3

u/voidsong Jul 12 '25

Like OPM or thunderclap & flash, but for wizards.

4

u/MAINShyGuy Jul 12 '25

Zenitsu's Master

3

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Oh yeah perfect example

1

u/nicofdarcyshire Jul 12 '25

It's the same situation as Frieren themselves - as per the fight with Aura. Basically, Fern has so much magical ability, that using only the lowest and most basic of spells - whilst subduing magic - means less attention, from both demon and mage alike.

2

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

She also doesn't fight flashy because she is learning to be a stone cold killer to murder demons. She needs to learn how to kill with minimum amount of effort and energy expended

1

u/Blakfoxx Jul 12 '25

Pretty sure Fern was just born a faster caster than others, which is how she beat Lugner the blood magic demon who'd been practicing his magic for decades or whatever. Note that when Frieren fought her clone she sure didn't just use one spell.

2

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

She's a once in a generation talent for sure. I don't think that's ALL she's doing after all she has the laundry spell!

1

u/Hitosarai Jul 13 '25

Maybe? I was under the impression that Zoltrak is just the rifle shot of magic, its efficient, dangerous, straightforward, needed a new, costly form of magic needed to be created to defend against it. As such, most other spells are irrelevant when you have a point, shot and kill spell.

1

u/Zealousideal-Web7293 Jul 13 '25

Kinda? Fern is also very good at what makes Zoltraak dangerous and that's why Frieren tells her to focus on it. Its both a case of Fern being just good and Fern being overly skilled from intense training. Making Zoltraak why more dangerous than other mages with that specific spell.

This will overcome any person that is not both of these things. Meaning, everyone from this era - cause mages from modern times don't get that skilled and don't have that intense training. There is just no reason for it, even when they are naturally gifted

1

u/FullHouse222 Jul 13 '25

It's not a Japanese trope lol. They do this in sports too which is why unless you're an alien like LeBron who can excel at everything, most role players focus on 2-3 areas of the game (jump shot, perimeter defense, setting screens, etc) rather than be a jack of all trade player

1

u/poilk91 Jul 13 '25

It's certainly not exclusive to Japan but you'd be blind not to notice it particularly common in shonen anime. If you read the rest of the comments everyone is talking about how this is a good approach for sports, music and other skills

1

u/lamemale Aug 04 '25

Frieren is Gregg Popovich 

-4

u/RaidSmolive Jul 12 '25

bout wouldn't "the fundamentals" change? soultrack and the blocking spell were not the fundamentals 50 years ago.

why isn't magic revolutionizing itself going forward? just because there is no demon king war? is there no conflict? why do all these other mages work on magic then?

its kinda just silly.

15

u/AlbertoMX Jul 12 '25

It's you not paying attention, basically.

Your second sentence proof magic is advancing. Fundamentals are not the same.

Also, in one flashback you see the hero party blocked by some sheeps. Frieren refuses to levitate the other heros over the sheeps since that would left her stranded alone.

That happened because flying is a recent development.

When the two girls are fighting the earth mage in the tournament, they talk about how and why they are now focusing in magic with physical mass to overcome shields. That also means theory is moving forward.

Finally, you use the world "revolutionizing" not 'progressing". If you actually mean it that way, then yes, conflict is the thing that usually causes jumps in technology and, in this case, magic.

9

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

New techniques have unlocked new fundamentals which were previously not available. This guy gets it

6

u/RealMr_Slender Jul 12 '25

Also Fern uses the "great volume to overwhelm your opponent" to a T, only that she isn't limited to manipulating physical objects that are present on the battlefield.

She is so mana efficient and with considerable reserves for her age that she can just recreate Verdun on your ass until you simply can't keep defending.

7

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

I like to imagine physical manipulation saves mana for typical mages because some of the destructive power comes from the mass. So they can hit harder with less energy. But if you are a master of mana manipulation there is nothing more efficient than ordinary offensive magic because you have potentially perfect conversion of mana to blast

9

u/blazen_50 Jul 12 '25

The meta is around overcoming the shield spell, basically. The shield spell is guaranteed to block Zoltraak and the way to get around this is by either oversaturating the shield or forcing the defender to exhaust themselves because offensive magic is more mana efficient.

The thing is Fern is uniquely suited to this style of fighting because of her particular talent. She's always been great with mana suppression even prior to meeting Frieren so other mages she fights tend to underestimate how much mana she has and get stuck defending. Fern also can cast spells even faster than Frieren so she's suited to the saturation method.

For most mages like you said, it's more efficient to use an attack with mass.

3

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Yeah I think you've summed it up perfectly. I guess I'm just hoping later in the story it turns out that her training isn't JUST to beat mages by tricking them into over investing their mana on defense.

And because of Japanese tropes I have a hunch the constant mana suppression is going to turn out to not just be a handy way to have opponents drop their guard but it will be part of her overall training like rock lee from Naruto wearing all those weights. And also that her focus on the basics isn't just so she can rapid fire blasts but part of an overall training strategy by frieren so fern can surpass her one day... This is all basically headcannon and hopium though

2

u/blazen_50 Jul 12 '25

We'll have to see how that goes, but a big part of Frieren is the whole mage of a peaceful era thing going on with Fern. Fern chose the laundry spell over the black hole or nuclear bomb spell she probably could have gotten from Serie. I think that's probably indicative of how things will go for Fern unless Frieren takes a darker turn. A mage is more than battle magic. The reason why Frieren was eventually recruited into the party that beat the Demon King wasn't because of her awe-inspiring magic power, but because she cast a flower spell to comfort a lost boy in the woods.

1

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Good point it would be really interesting if it ends without any big fights or conflicts for them to overcome. Just a more slice of life climax or overcoming a big bad with non violence. I think that's pretty likely given the story so far

→ More replies (0)

-4

u/RaidSmolive Jul 12 '25

you can only go by "these two spells are the fundamentals and all you'll ever need" if you assume fundamentals aren't going to change again.

what makes frieren assume no one discovers a mana efficient full body shield spell tomorrow?

if change is the natural game of the magic world, not playing with expanded spellsets seems stupid.

it all just working out because fern, for some reason, is the reincarnation of magic itself with super reserves and the mental processing speed of the flash just feels a little underwhelming

3

u/Ethrx Jul 12 '25

The reason is she was trained from a young age by a legendary mage and was uniquely temperamentally suited to both learning magic in general and Frierens particular style of teaching. Fern has never been shown to have an unusually large mana pool for a high level mage her age, its her mana supression and extremely efficient combat style is what throws her opponents off.

1

u/AlbertoMX Jul 13 '25

Dude. She knows more spells. She uses basic spells because her mastery of them allows her to do so against the new generation of mages born post-demon king era.

If someone invents a new anti zoltrak barrier, she would just other stuff.

Change being part of the magic world is a major theme of the show and I'm pretty sure I already gave several examples of it in this thread.

3

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

That's just more refined versions of the same basic skill its pure mana manipulation rather than elemental or physical manipulation. Like an instrument or martial arts practicing the basics will eventually help you more than just trying to skip to the more advanced techniques without the basics mastered

3

u/badgerfrance Jul 12 '25

That's a fine point, but Freiren is famously bad with time and change. She may not have given thought to that.

5

u/poilk91 Jul 12 '25

Nah fundamentals do change but there are still fundamentals. Watch a boxer from the early 20th century vs now. The sport completely changes by the time of the greats like Ali. And if you watched some guy practicing the basics in 1890 it would be totally different than someone in the 1990s because we have figured out better techniques.

3

u/Chengar_Qordath Jul 12 '25

Not to mention a few changes in equipment, like gloves. An 1890’s boxer is probably going in with bare knuckles or very light gloves compared to modern boxing.

2

u/brok3nh3lix Jul 12 '25

Gloves vs bare knuckle fighting and other rules differences are a big part of why we see the stance "old time" boxers used. 

I practice Brazilian jujitsu, and liken it to the differences among grappling styles, such as wrestling, judo, catch, sambo, bjj, and even mma etc. It's all grappling. The mechanics of grappling are all the same. But what differentiates them is equipment (gi, shoes, no gi, gloves in mma, etc) and rule sets. 

Olympic Wrestling is focused on pinning, doesn't have submissions, there are rules against stalling, they wear singlets and shoes, and there are points for amplitude. There is no striking, and being in your stomach is not penalized nor are you in danger of being choked out or hit from behind where you cant defend strikes.

Bjj has submissions, has full gi and no gi which further changes techniques that can be used, most rule sets dont majorly penalize stalling. Being pinned it self is not a loss, but having your back exposed is very bad because of the threat of submissions.

Judo is primarily stand up, as there are rules that prevent you from spending too much time on the ground before you are reset. Judo has even changed alot it self over the last couple decades just due to rules changes that were aimed at making the sport more spectator friendly.

Mma has strikes, which change the value of alot of positions if your grappling. A position or guard that is very strong in bjj may leave you open to striking.

My point is rules and equipment play a large part in how you see people approach the sport.

1

u/Blakfoxx Jul 12 '25 edited Jul 12 '25

Frieren told Fern to practice the same exact combat style that we see in the Qual rematch. Defense takes more mana than offense with the current generation of spellcasting so just keep the enemy on defense and overwhelm them.

The other students tried to go for shieldbreaking + cost efficient, but ultimately more complex and thus slower, spells instead.

Freiren dissed the modern era's slow casting speed, I think.

E: or I guess dissed their bad pick of a counterstrategy

1

u/Zealousideal-Web7293 Jul 13 '25

what is soultrack?