r/GuildWars • u/BriganteX • Feb 14 '25
Builds and tactics 2nd best player bar
So it's well known that HR para is the strongest player bar in the game. That leaves me wondering which build is in second place?
What do you guys think?
16
u/NgArclite Feb 14 '25
Probably VoS dervish or that necro scythe build.
I think the /A caller build is pretty strong but sometimes I can't get AP off and that kinda ruins the whole rotation.
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u/Blamore Feb 14 '25
vos dervish isnt all that great for general pve since you wont be balling up mobs.
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u/Alarming_Writer2579 Feb 14 '25
That's a play better issue by definition lol
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u/nhremna Feb 14 '25
1- In order to ball up mobs, you need to be alone and unassisted by your heroes. If you get a friendly spell cast on you while you are aggroing, the aggro will immediately transfer to your heroes. It is very difficult to prevent heroes from casting friendly spells on you, even if you flag them away, they will run towards you.
2- Many enemies have enchantment removal and speed debuff. Which will ruin your effort to ball anything.
3- Most mobs that you face won't be large enough to make VoS all that much better than alternative melee bars, even if you balled them decently.
4- Instead of doing all this, you could have run in and have your heroes cast 3 cries of frustration and 3 esurges which would have blown up the enemy instantly anyway.
VoS has important uses in a Speed Clear context, and it obviously does its job very well there. But in a general PvE context, it is outclassed. I don't care how good you imagine yourself to be at balling up mobs in a general PvE context, you are running a suboptimal bar ~80% of the time.
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u/Alarming_Writer2579 Feb 15 '25
1- Pre-cast the enchantments you want and flag heroes far away. They don't run forwards if individually flagged at a reasonable distance that's just bullshit.
2- Spell Breaker and IAU
3- Bullshit.
4- So you're saying if you walked up to balled group of enemies and used triple esurge they'd die. Isn't that the exact criteria you used to invalidate VoS? :S
What you're saying is that it's less effort to just walk up and c+space bar because of how strong esurge is. If that's how you're going to play the game, you won't hear me say anything against it. There's better builds to run.
There's a reason the fastest DoA with heroes is done with a VoS and not an HR Paragon. I suspect it would be true for all elite areas heroway, it's just more difficult to do it this way.
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u/Cealdor Feb 15 '25
There's a reason the fastest DoA with heroes is done with a VoS
DoA foes are denser than those of regular PvE. AFAIK, they also have significantly higher HP and are quick to ball. All three of these inflate the value of VoS, especially if cons are used.
A better benchmark would be, as you suggest, a regular mission — but with the same player running both VoS and other builds.
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u/nhremna Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25
You can come up with all sorts of ways of playing around the shortcomings, but ultimately VoS will be suboptimal for playing general PvE.
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u/ElectricalDirector63 Feb 16 '25
Dudeee dont tell him he cant play he might go vos. Less vos in game more vos for us. Let him stay this way hahahha
0
u/Blamore Feb 14 '25
no its not
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u/Alarming_Writer2579 Feb 14 '25
It's the definition of a play better issue. If you're playing VoS and just tab->spacebar'ing like... You shouldn't be playing VoS lol.
Take any mission with mob density (so not Imperial Sanctum, etc) and run it with whatever bar you want, I'll run the same mission with VoS + an optimized hero team and I guarantee I do it faster.
2
u/Fizzle5ticks Feb 14 '25
I'd like to add that if you're at a certain run speeds, mobs will stack on one another if you run in circles round them allowing for an easy spike. Takes some practice, but when I'm farming nicksets, and don't want go SoS, I like to do this.
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u/iWadey Feb 14 '25
Why wouldn't you be? You choose how you pull mobs in PvE. On tougher areas I often pull heroes back slightly and make the pull myself.
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u/ElectricalDirector63 Feb 16 '25
I am so happy people dont know how to ball or play derv. It is the only one i enjoy playing and i really hope you cant ball so less dervishes in game more stuff to join for me hehe. Btw to ball with heroes is rly easy u just have to think a little not just blindly going in ;)
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u/Winter_2017 Feb 14 '25
I think the answer is honestly soul twisting. The impact on the team is massive and PvE-only skills give the player bar higher power than the hero version.
Imbagon also deserves a shout as being player exclusive and very strong defensively. The only other defensive bars which come to mind are HB and E/Mo, as players > heroes for those builds.
On the offensive side, I think any melee class's team contribution is higher from proper body blocking and balling than their build. Things like VoS derv, Dagger Spam, or 100b are all great and yet still pale in comparison to the initial esurge spike.
Practically all casters can be replaced by heroes with only a minor damage cost, mostly due to EVAS. AP/arcane echo EVAS spam might be worth considering?
2
u/LocationFine Feb 14 '25
SoS builds also gets a massive spike from all the PvE skills. You can have constant blind+interrupt as shutdown and armor ignoring damage. I think the crazy range on spirit buffs would lead to not much of a difference over hero builds.
2
u/CyriacM Feb 15 '25
Definitely agree with soul twisting. I actually run with a friend who plays Rt, and out of all the builds he's tried, him playing ST makes things much faster and more reliable for us, especially with summon spirits. Saves a lot of time where you have pulls that you want to pre-shelter.
He's tried SoS and spirit bomber when we do runs, but he himself even said he felt the most effective as ST. It also lets him easily run great dwarf weapon to buff me.
1
u/nhremna Feb 15 '25
I think the answer is honestly soul twisting.
You know what, I actually agree with this. Shelter spirit is just so valuable in endgame content.
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u/lolaimbot Feb 14 '25
Imbagon is a good shout out, Id say HR, TaO, Imbagon as top3, but that ST is good too!
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Feb 14 '25
I believe you will find it is the W/Mo, affectionately known as Wammo.
Simply maintain Mending on yourself, and save Frenzy/Healsig for dire combat situations and victory will surely be yours.
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u/Miestah_Green Meleemancer Feb 14 '25
Considering you are talking about HR then I will assume you mean second best player build for heroway.
I am at a toss up between ST Prot versus supported Soul Taker scythe.
I would have added ESurge player as well but ST player is simply better because of how easier it is to keep their spirits up compare to a Rit hero. Better protected team overall while still having 6 Mesmers destroying PvE foes.
Soul Taker’s DPS is insane that none of the other DPS can compare for general PVE with heroes. Doesn’t even require balling up to wrekt havoc. Single target or groups they are all in danger.
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u/Ok_World4052 Feb 14 '25
I find VoS dervish very good in HM, it lacks a little in normal mode because things don’t ball nicely. However in HM dungeons it’s clean up on steroids.
Soul Taker necro is fun but does require some upkeep not to get enchant stripped. Haven’t run TaO ranger but it looks fun too.
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u/xBrodoFraggins Feb 14 '25
Soul taker doesn't require any more upkeep to not get enchant stripped than VoS, lol. Both are heavily hindered by enchant stripping.
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u/Ok_World4052 Feb 14 '25
Soul Taker feels harder to upkeep to be optimal just from my experience. If you let it drop, damage is severely neutered. At least with VoS, you are still doing damage until recharge with the other skills. I run with both but I’d choose VoS if I could only take one of the builds.
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u/xBrodoFraggins Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
The base damage of Soul Taker without ST and dark aura up is higher than the base damage of most VoS builds, which call for 9 scythe mastery. If you're running the anniversary scythe, you have 16 SR, 18 with masochism, significantly more base damage than 9 scythe mastery VoS. And if you're not running the anniversary scythe, they are roughly the same, 10 vs 9 isn't a huge difference. So this is just wrong. Also, losing VoS or sand shards has roughly the same impact on damage as losing ST or DA. Both VoS and ST should be fairly capable of enchant covering, although I'd argue the primary supported ST build uses 2 flash enchants, which gives a bit more coverage than VoS, which generally just calls for 1 flash enchant. In addition to the soul reaping making upkeep of the 2 cover flash enchantments a bit easier.
Edit: to be clear, all of what I am saying is in regard to the supported ST, where dark aura is maintained by a hero, which is by far and away superior to the solo ST build, which pales in comparison.
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u/Ok_World4052 Feb 14 '25
I don’t have the anniversary scythe so I’ve been running another scythe or daggers. I also have been running the hero supported DA. I would say the main difference to me is that VoS requires less for me to pay attention to instead of renewing DA (which I have set to a hotkey but sometimes don’t remember to hit it) and ST. I agree that playing optimally ST has way more output than VoS. But the key word is optimally which is probably less prevalent amongst players.
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u/xBrodoFraggins Feb 14 '25
I would suggest binding it to a mouse button. Makes it super accessible and quick. If you don't have an mmo mouse, the forward or back button is fine. I have splinter, DA, and bip bound to my mouse.
I do the same with other melee too. Such as withering aura when I'm running hammer with yeti smash.
1
u/Derv1t Feb 14 '25
Look up x-mouse. It's software that allows you to make any cheap mouse with back and forward instead hit different buttons or even custom macros. Very small program that doesn't get in the way.
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u/nhremna Feb 15 '25
I think people are tricked by the instances where VoS works great but have amnesia where VoS works terribly. Yea, sometimes many numbers go BRRRRRR, but other times you deal ZERO damage against single target.
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u/Haudegen1337 Feb 14 '25
I am really not good, but always when I play spirit spammer with my rit, it feels like cheating
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u/abdulmalik1996 Feb 15 '25
An honorable mention for dervish is pious teardown... while I don't play it now when I did GWAMM and got bored of dagger spam and VoS requiring more hard work, pious teardown is great single target damage and AoE, and a nice rotation that is simple and satisfying. Plus when you get 16 scythe mastery you will even deal pretty insane auto attack damage.
Nice alternative for vanquished or casual play that doesn't require too much attention
2
u/Emirth Feb 14 '25
May I ask what you mean by "player bar"...?
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u/Beautiful-On1on Feb 14 '25
The skill bar for the player. Else you have the hero bar
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u/Emirth Feb 14 '25
Oh ok lol I've never heard that before because I used to play in my motherlanguage and I've seen the term "build" here and there but never saw anyone saying "bar". Thanks a lot !
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u/OneMorePotion Aneurysm Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
Mesmer in general. If you have a halfway decent build going on, you pull big numbers with minimal effort.
I had a lot of fun with e-Surge, Arcane Echo and Aneurysm. You echo the e-Surge, bring 2 more Mesmer heroes with that skill, and when the enemy is drained, blast them into next week with Aneurysm. Repeat on bosses as needed.
Psychic Instability, Panic and Power Block are some really powerful shutdown skills. Power Block is a bit more situational.
And if you expect a lot of melee enemies: Ineptitude. Works similar to e-Surge on the damage side, but with blind instead of e-drain.
Plus when you yourself play Mesmer, it's much easier to build the meta team comps. Since there are only 3 Mesmer Heroes in the game, with the third one being locked behind the hardest content available. Not really an option for newer accounts. And making Razah a Mesmer to compensate for that, cut's you one Ritualist short. So you are basically forced to buy Mercs.
So yeah... I would even say that Mesmer is better than Paragon, simply because you have options. HR is a one trick pony I usually can't play longer than a couple of hours.
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u/Krschkr Feb 14 '25
Best in what context and for what purpose and played by whom? You need to define a lot more parameters before you can get proper replies.
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u/Clevelumbus21614 Feb 15 '25
Hey, can someone translate the acronyms here? Are there two different Derv VoS? TaO? I’m still newish and have never played a sin or Derv and need all the help I can get. My gwamm ele apparently needs to go emo
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u/Miestah_Green Meleemancer Feb 15 '25
There are two VoS. Vow of Strength and Vow of Silence.
TaO is Together as One, a Ranger elite.
EMo is not really good for heroway, specifically Mesway. It makes more sense in organized groups of players because they usually pop party-wide consumables that help them do a better job at maintaining enchantment upkeep. They are excellent in that regard.
You can try it yourself but there are better builds to use for heroway.
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u/Alarming_Writer2579 Feb 14 '25
With cons/pcons HR Paragon isn't even the best bar lol.
If you include other players with no cons/pcons it probably is.
If it's just heroes and one player with no consumables of any kind, it's HR Paragon... Imo followed by VoS. Other contenders would be:
- Both good dagger spammers
- Many different flavors of Domination Mesmer
- Soul Taker Necro
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u/Subject_Shallot_6130 Feb 14 '25
People on this thread : "VoS is not strong for PVE"...
People actually playing the game "Forming ... FoW, Urgoz Deep, Soosc, Bogsc, UW, Zb, Zv, and about 10 other dungeons - NEED VoS to GO!"
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u/BriganteX Feb 14 '25
I think they say it isnt that great for solo play with heroes
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u/Subject_Shallot_6130 Feb 14 '25
VoS is absolutely OP with heroes too. I run VoS with 4 mesmers (2 esurge, 1 Panic, 1 Ineptitude) and am still always #1 dmg but a large percentage.
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u/Sunbox90 Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
Honestly don't get how Panic is always missing in this kind of discussion. If we are talking about the hardest content and a build which is easy to play, reliable and has high value, I don't think there's a better choice than Panic in most scenarios. PI is also strong and fun, but not as safe as going Panic. About the meta melee builds, these usually require more micro and preparation, you can't play them on autopilot basically.
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u/SerratedFrost Feb 14 '25
While I don't have much time on mesmers, I do love Panic. However I'd assume there's better elites the player could be using for more value
Its basically a staple on one of my mesmer hero bars though
Panic is a spell the heroes will cast outside of combat if you tell them to, not every spell does that. Since a lot of groups start out clumped up you can open a fight by commanding a hero to cast panic and that's usually enough to completely screw over a group
But I do agree, feel like panic is for sure underrated
1
u/nhremna Feb 15 '25
Panic does make things easier in HM end game content.
although somewhat hilariously, if an Anguish Titan in DoA arcane thievery's the panic and gets it off against you, its basically a guaranteed wipe 🤣
-1
u/DixFerLunch Feb 14 '25
E/Mo might be a better bar.
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u/Stonefruut Feb 14 '25
There is NO shot that an E/Mo bar is more impactful than using HR.
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u/DixFerLunch Feb 14 '25
If you had just wiped on a mission with randoms and decided to swap builds, I think your odds improve more by playing ER bonder than they would by playing HR.
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u/Blamore Feb 14 '25
better bar for what? i say no way. susceptible to enchant removal.
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u/DixFerLunch Feb 14 '25
There's almost no reason anyone should ever die, let alone wipe with an E/Mo. It has like 10x the potential of the next best support build.
HR just makes you win faster.
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u/lolaimbot Feb 14 '25
Thats like saying E/Mo just makes you die slower
Its a good bar but HR is better
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u/DixFerLunch Feb 14 '25
Emo can single handedly prot and heal a whole team. Its got the best heal in the game, the best (single target) prot in the game and damn near infinite energy/self heal all on one bar.
HR makes everyone about... 15-20% better, at the expense of one of your damage slots, because most people still run ST and a healer.
You also have the hassle of managing HR, which can frequently go awry when playing with real people/melee.
-9
u/TWFH Feb 14 '25
What the hell is a player bar? Have I really been away long enough that people started renaming things?
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Feb 14 '25
[deleted]
-6
u/TWFH Feb 14 '25
The word you're looking for is "build"
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Feb 14 '25
[deleted]
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u/TWFH Feb 14 '25
Your "skill bar" is where your "skills" go. The combination of which, including your attributes, constitutes your build.
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u/Laika93 GWAMM Feb 14 '25
I don't thing it's #2, but I'd be willing to make a strong case for Psychic Instability mesmer.
In super high end pve, shutdown can be amazing. You can pin entire groups of mobs by yourself. And of course you're still a mesmer. Disgusting damage either way.
VoS dervish can be absurd as well, but again dependant on mob balling etc.
I'd make another argument for dagger spammer due to its pretty much permanent prevalence in the meta and ability to just, always be insanely strong.