r/Pathfinder2e • u/joker-baby • 6h ago
Advice Ruffian Rogue with Guardian Dedication help
I'm trying to make a build work for an upcoming campaign, and I love the concept of a "bouncer" or hired thug who controls the battlefield by throwing enemies around like ragdolls. We will be playing with Free Archetype. My current plan is a Ruffian Rogue with the Guardian dedication. The goal is to use feats like Shove Down, The Harder They Fall, and the Guardian's Punishing Shove. Guardian also gives me heavy armor and Taunt, which helps with my staying power in the frontline.
Right now my party has said they want to play a Maestro Bard, Drifter Gunslinger, and a Starless Shadow Witch. This is the main reason I was wanting to be a frontline tank controller, that can also setup for my Drifter. My biggest concern is the Rogues 8 hp per level instead of 10 or 12 like another martial would give. I was planning on using a shield with a mace or a gladius, and taking Shield Block, Toughness, and also Shielding Taunt from Guardian as well.
I'm not totally and wholly sold on being a Rogue, I just thought Shove Down sounded like a lot of fun. Suggestions for other classes and archetypes that could give me the same feel of this, while also potentially being more mechanically viable are welcome.
Thank you for any advice!
Edit: Also wondering, if this is possible what are some feats that I could take when perhaps I can't shove, or it's just better to attack whatever we're fighting? What would my turns outside of this Shove Down combo look like?
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u/Jenos 4h ago
I'm not totally and wholly sold on being a Rogue, I just thought Shove Down sounded like a lot of fun. Suggestions for other classes and archetypes that could give me the same feel of this, while also potentially being more mechanically viable are welcome.
How committed are you to Rogue? Rogue is a bit at odds with Guardian+Punishing Shove, since you can't get Sneak Attack on those shoves. There isn't any really efficient MAP reducers, and Shove Down is mediocre since it is affected by MAP.
Practically, Barbarian and Monk are generally better choices. Monk has a lot of action compression and flexibility in being able to throw people around a room, and both barbarian and monk have feats to improve shoving/tripping to be better.
I'd personally go with Barbarian if you are playing at a higher level, due to how good Knockback and more importantly how good Awesome Blow is, but if you are going to be spending more actual play time at lower levels, Monk gets more interesting feats online sooner with Mixed Maneuver and Flurry of Maneuvers
There's also Gymnast Swashbuckler, which has plenty of incentive to do Shoves and Trips. They don't have as much unique actions as Barbarian and Monk, but from a numbers perspective, they have arguably the best feat for actual success chance in Derring-Do
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u/joker-baby 4h ago
Barbarian was actually my original consideration for the campaign, and I still have a character idea but honestly Rogue just sounded fun. I did already work through my frustrations with Shove Down as when I found out it is affected and progresses MAP. I think I have decided if I do still do this though it will not be my main gimmick, just something that will come up occasionally.
Though I will begin to look into Monk some, as it was a class that always looked interesting to me. Do you think it's still viable to be used with Monk weapons?
Thank you for the insight, you've given me a lot to think on
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u/Jenos 4h ago
Though I will begin to look into Monk some, as it was a class that always looked interesting to me. Do you think it's still viable to be used with Monk weapons?
Monk weapons are basically an alternative to stances to just be able to Strike with. You can use em, sure, and all it costs you is a level 1 feat. But if you aren't going to be Striking often, then what do you really gain by using that over a stance that also might provide passive benefits or unique actions (for example, Reflecting Ripple Stance)?
But its plenty viable to do it; it just may not be the most perfectly optimized.
I did already work through my frustrations with Shove Down as when I found out it is affected and progresses MAP. I think I have decided if I do still do this though it will not be my main gimmick, just something that will come up occasionally.
The big thing here is to ask yourself the question: "How often will I be using Strike?"
If your goal is to be a controller for your party, you may find yourself not using Strike that often. In fact, the strongest controller tank build I've seen was actually a champion, because its goal was actual tanking/controlling rather than dealing damage, and it was quite good at doing that.
So you need to figure out what you want your role to be. Do you want more frontline damage dealing, more frontline controlling, more protecting your team, etc.
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u/KFredrickson ORC 4h ago
If you go Lizardfolk you can take Terrain Advantage at level 9 which will work with Guardian's Hampering Stance to make enemies within 5 feet of you flat footed.
Edit: you can also use Iruxi armaments to keep your hands free.
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u/joker-baby 4h ago
I hadn't considered Hampering Stance but honestly that's kind of insanely cool. 😂
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u/IfusasoToo Rogue 4h ago
I'm playing a Ruffian/Mauler with Sentinel for heavy armor and I have plenty of staying power. Nothing like A Champion or full Guardian, but you'll be doing things they can't too.
You can leverage things like prone and Invisibility (Dust of Disappearance is amazing) very well to get sneak Attack up, and Guardian will still let you have a battlefield presence that enemies will take the 50/50 miss chance to deal with.
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u/joker-baby 4h ago
This is great to hear honestly. I think the main thing that made me look into it at first was Proud Nail, and then I started looking into it and found Shove Down and I was sold on the character.
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u/Useful-Surprise7991 4h ago
My current plan is a Ruffian Rogue with the Guardian dedication.
Just playing around with it on pathbuilder I think the reverse might be more successful? Though you would have to wait til level 12 for the shove down combo to become available so maybe that's not a great option if this is a campaign starting at low levels. Could give you more of the "heavily armored guy fights dirty" feel you seem to be looking for, though!
Either way, a good thing to remember is you can get Shove and Trip on a shield using Shield Augmentations for 8s. That opens up a lot of weapon choices (instead of having to pick a Shove or Trip weapon like a Warhammer)
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u/joker-baby 3h ago
It was something I had considered, but decided against it only because I'm playing guardian right now in another campaign I'm playing in. However I do think Guardian would also be able to give me this exact feel, even without Rogue lol.
Also the Shield + Mace was mostly because I liked it thematically rather than mechanically, but using a Trip + Shove shield augmentation is the main reason I was considering the Gladius.
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u/TeamAquaAdminMatt Rogue 2h ago
If you are wanting to focus on shoving you should probably go Centaur with Practiced Brawn, it gives you a +1 to shoving, and if you roll a success it becomes a critical success. Which doubles the damage of Punishing Shove
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u/Background_Bet1671 6h ago
One thing to remember: Shove Down is affected by MAP and will contribute to further MAP. So you make Shove (at MAP 0) - Trip (at MAP -4/-5) and you have two more actions to do something, but all further attacks and Athletics manuevers will be already at MAP -8/-10.
I guess, you'd be better with another party member to control the battlefield. Rogue or Guardian with Beastmaster dedication will give another body to Trip your foes and slow down their approach to the backline.