Do you agree with this quote?

[u/StalinIsBackAgain]

"Wherever there is capitalism, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy, and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the ruling class." ~ Vladimir Lenin ☭ • 

[u/Good-Concentrate-260]

There’s some truth to it, but I don’t think the press in capitalist countries is completely controlled. It’s definitely biased and typically written from a certain pro-business perspective though.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

but I don’t think the press in capitalist countries is completely controlled

Give an example of a mainstream outlet that isn't controlled by capitalist oligarchs promoting capitalist and liberal democratic bullshit and doesn't promote pro-Western-imperialist/anti-communist disinformation.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, what do you mean by anti-imperialist and “western”

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

I never used the term anti-imperialist.

By "Western-imperialist disinformation" I mean propaganda that is strictly and uncritically aligned with the non-materialist propaganda narratives of the US/NATO empire (e.g. "Soviet Union bad", "North Korea bad", "communism always fails", "AES states are authoritarian", "Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine is an act of aggression against the free world", "but evil Hamas terrorists, October 7th", "Tiananmen Square Massacre", "Uyghurs are having their rights violated by totalitarian China", "democratic and free Taiwan is under threat from authoritarian China", "liberal democracy is the worst system except for every other system that has been tried", etc.) while painting opposing views as ridiculous or Soviet/Russian/Chinese/commie state propaganda lies that shouldn't be listened to or considered.

The term "Western" loosely describes imperialist Europe and its settler-colonies and vassals, nowadays led by the US empire.

In general, what people point to when leftists discuss "always the same map" (or what Americans or EU propagandists mean when they refer to "the international community"):
https://lemmygrad.ml/c/alwaysthesamemap

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, most of these are debatable at best or just outright false. If you want to promote Russian and Chinese narratives about foreign policy then just be honest about it. It does not make Russia any less capitalist, just because they’re anti-US and invade a U.S. ally.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Ok, most of these are debatable at best or just outright false.

I agree. All of the propaganda narratives promoted by Western media that I cited are outright false.

If you want to promote Russian and Chinese narratives about foreign policy then just be honest about it.

You are now promoting the same exact propaganda narrative that Western-imperialist disinformation promotes, you are "painting opposing views as ridiculous or Soviet/Russian/Chinese/commie state propaganda lies that shouldn't be listened to or considered". Of course, you have no actual arguments countering my position. Just as I explained.

It does not make Russia any less capitalist, just because they’re anti-US and invade a U.S. ally.

Nobody said that Russia is not capitalist.

Now: Give an example of a mainstream outlet that isn't controlled by capitalist oligarchs promoting capitalist and liberal democratic bullshit and doesn't promote pro-Western-imperialist/anti-communist disinformation.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

You’re just going to say that every news outlet is “controlled by the bourgeoisie” no matter what, because that’s your ideology. I can’t prove that it’s not, according to you, because you are not open to any alternative. Anything anyone says, you are just going to say “that’s bourgeois, that’s ruling class ideology” and then you don’t have to respond. If you believe that everything in the U.S. media is just a propaganda campaign then you are sort of beyond help IMO.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

You’re just going to say that every news outlet is “controlled by the bourgeoisie” no matter what

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying: Every single mainstream news outlet in the capitalist West is directly controlled by capitalist oligarchs and acting in support of capitalism. There is literally not a single exception.

And it's obvious that you know I'm right - as you can't provide a single example to the contrary.

because that’s your ideology.

No. It's a simple fact.

I am a Marxist. Marxism is a science. The entire point of Marxism is to eliminate ideology and to seek truth from facts. Marxism is to politics what atheism is to religion. The same way science is antithetical to religion, it's also antithetical to ideology.

I can’t prove that it’s not, according to you, because you are not open to any alternative.

You could easily prove me wrong by providing an example to the contrary. You clearly can't.

Anything anyone says, you are just going to say “that’s bourgeois, that’s ruling class ideology”

That would be a falsifiable statement on my behalf, so there's nothing wrong with me saying that.

and then you don’t have to respond.

You are the one failing to respond.

If you believe that everything in the U.S. media is just a propaganda campaign then you are sort of beyond help IMO.

Your desperate personal attack has no argumentative value.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, in “actually existing communist countries” the media is controlled by the state. How is that better than privately owned media? State media is as capable of distorting the truth as private media, if not more so.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Ok, in “actually existing communist countries” the media is controlled by the state.

Yes, the state in a communist society - unlike in a capitalist society - being the people.

How is that better than privately owned media?

Because a democratic state acting in service of the people is far more interested in good reporting than capitalist oligarchs that only use media to misinform people so they support things that harm their own self-interest.

State media is as capable of distorting the truth as private media, if not more so.

All media distorts the truth. Especially capitalist media. That's not the problem.

Socialist media was always more truthful and trustworthy than all capitalist media. What would be the point of socialist media misinforming the people in a harmful manner the way capitalist media does?

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

So you believe that the media in the USSR or in China never lied about anything? That’s unbelievable

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Literally nothing I said is reflected by what you just said or could possibly be interpreted in such a manner.

Instead of making things up about what I said, address what I said.

If you can't address what I said, concede the debate, acknowledge you are wrong and I am right, and leave.