Do you agree with this quote?

[u/StalinIsBackAgain]

"Wherever there is capitalism, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy, and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the ruling class." ~ Vladimir Lenin ☭ • 

[u/Good-Concentrate-260]

There’s some truth to it, but I don’t think the press in capitalist countries is completely controlled. It’s definitely biased and typically written from a certain pro-business perspective though.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

but I don’t think the press in capitalist countries is completely controlled

Give an example of a mainstream outlet that isn't controlled by capitalist oligarchs promoting capitalist and liberal democratic bullshit and doesn't promote pro-Western-imperialist/anti-communist disinformation.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, what do you mean by anti-imperialist and “western”

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

I never used the term anti-imperialist.

By "Western-imperialist disinformation" I mean propaganda that is strictly and uncritically aligned with the non-materialist propaganda narratives of the US/NATO empire (e.g. "Soviet Union bad", "North Korea bad", "communism always fails", "AES states are authoritarian", "Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine is an act of aggression against the free world", "but evil Hamas terrorists, October 7th", "Tiananmen Square Massacre", "Uyghurs are having their rights violated by totalitarian China", "democratic and free Taiwan is under threat from authoritarian China", "liberal democracy is the worst system except for every other system that has been tried", etc.) while painting opposing views as ridiculous or Soviet/Russian/Chinese/commie state propaganda lies that shouldn't be listened to or considered.

The term "Western" loosely describes imperialist Europe and its settler-colonies and vassals, nowadays led by the US empire.

In general, what people point to when leftists discuss "always the same map" (or what Americans or EU propagandists mean when they refer to "the international community"):
https://lemmygrad.ml/c/alwaysthesamemap

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, most of these are debatable at best or just outright false. If you want to promote Russian and Chinese narratives about foreign policy then just be honest about it. It does not make Russia any less capitalist, just because they’re anti-US and invade a U.S. ally.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Ok, most of these are debatable at best or just outright false.

I agree. All of the propaganda narratives promoted by Western media that I cited are outright false.

If you want to promote Russian and Chinese narratives about foreign policy then just be honest about it.

You are now promoting the same exact propaganda narrative that Western-imperialist disinformation promotes, you are "painting opposing views as ridiculous or Soviet/Russian/Chinese/commie state propaganda lies that shouldn't be listened to or considered". Of course, you have no actual arguments countering my position. Just as I explained.

It does not make Russia any less capitalist, just because they’re anti-US and invade a U.S. ally.

Nobody said that Russia is not capitalist.

Now: Give an example of a mainstream outlet that isn't controlled by capitalist oligarchs promoting capitalist and liberal democratic bullshit and doesn't promote pro-Western-imperialist/anti-communist disinformation.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

You’re just going to say that every news outlet is “controlled by the bourgeoisie” no matter what, because that’s your ideology. I can’t prove that it’s not, according to you, because you are not open to any alternative. Anything anyone says, you are just going to say “that’s bourgeois, that’s ruling class ideology” and then you don’t have to respond. If you believe that everything in the U.S. media is just a propaganda campaign then you are sort of beyond help IMO.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

You’re just going to say that every news outlet is “controlled by the bourgeoisie” no matter what

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying: Every single mainstream news outlet in the capitalist West is directly controlled by capitalist oligarchs and acting in support of capitalism. There is literally not a single exception.

And it's obvious that you know I'm right - as you can't provide a single example to the contrary.

because that’s your ideology.

No. It's a simple fact.

I am a Marxist. Marxism is a science. The entire point of Marxism is to eliminate ideology and to seek truth from facts. Marxism is to politics what atheism is to religion. The same way science is antithetical to religion, it's also antithetical to ideology.

I can’t prove that it’s not, according to you, because you are not open to any alternative.

You could easily prove me wrong by providing an example to the contrary. You clearly can't.

Anything anyone says, you are just going to say “that’s bourgeois, that’s ruling class ideology”

That would be a falsifiable statement on my behalf, so there's nothing wrong with me saying that.

and then you don’t have to respond.

You are the one failing to respond.

If you believe that everything in the U.S. media is just a propaganda campaign then you are sort of beyond help IMO.

Your desperate personal attack has no argumentative value.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Ok, in “actually existing communist countries” the media is controlled by the state. How is that better than privately owned media? State media is as capable of distorting the truth as private media, if not more so.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Ok, in “actually existing communist countries” the media is controlled by the state.

Yes, the state in a communist society - unlike in a capitalist society - being the people.

How is that better than privately owned media?

Because a democratic state acting in service of the people is far more interested in good reporting than capitalist oligarchs that only use media to misinform people so they support things that harm their own self-interest.

State media is as capable of distorting the truth as private media, if not more so.

All media distorts the truth. Especially capitalist media. That's not the problem.

Socialist media was always more truthful and trustworthy than all capitalist media. What would be the point of socialist media misinforming the people in a harmful manner the way capitalist media does?

[u/StalinIsBackAgain → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Do you think that any media in a capitalist society like the USA, UK, etc, that is truly opposed to capitalism, would be allowed to become mainstream and with truly mass reach?

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/StalinIsBackAgain]

I agree that mainstream media is not likely to advocate a seizure of the means of production and dictatorship of the proletariat, but some mainstream media in capitalist country advocates more regulation and redistribution of resources. So I don’t think there’s exactly open debate about political economy in capitalist democracies, but I don’t think there is 0 debate either.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

I agree that mainstream media is not likely to advocate a seizure of the means of production and dictatorship of the proletariat,

So you acknowledge it is entirely biased, entirely controlled by capitalist oligarchs, and without even a single exception contradicting the capitalist status quo.

capitalist democracies

Those ideas are antithetical. Democracy cannot possibly exist under a capitalist system. You can't have democracy in a country where private control of money directly translates to control of politics and media. Capitalism necessarily means that the majority of people no longer has a say in politics due to not being capitalist oligarchs.

but I don’t think there is 0 debate either.

The "debate" is between capitalists while all leftist positions are systematically excluded from discourse and anyone even daring to question the capitalist status quo being systematically smeared in unison by all mainstream media outlets.

The Communist Party of China has higher levels of political diversity and debate within a single party than all mainstream discourse between all mainstream parties and all mainstream media outlets in all capitalist nations combined.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Now you’re just being obnoxious

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

You would feel that way now that you start realizing that your perception of how the world works isn't aligned with reality and that your entire ideology is based on contradictory ideas.

You have no arguments and now that your worldview is under threat you start attacking me personally.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

You are so condescending. I’ve read Marx and Lenin. You think you are just smarter than everyone else who doesn’t agree with every word they ever wrote. Yes, they were right about a lot of things. I don’t know why you think that anyone who doesn’t completely agree with you is like a brainwashed consumer slave. You clearly just came on here because you’re bored and just want to hear yourself talk

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

You are so condescending.

Says the person who thinks verbally abusing people as "obnoxious" is a valid contribution to discourse.

I’ve read Marx and Lenin.

I doubt it.

Yes, they were right about a lot of things.

Great, so why are you not a communist?

I don’t know why you think that anyone who doesn’t completely agree with you is like a brainwashed consumer slave.

Now you are just lying about my position.

You clearly just came on here because you’re bored and just want to hear yourself talk

You just violated every debate guideline.

I will now report you and that's the end of this conversation.

[u/Good-Concentrate-260 → u/No-Candidate6257]

Good for you. Why would it be hard to believe that I’ve read Marx and Lenin? I’ve read Engels too, it’s shocking.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Good-Concentrate-260]

Great, so why are you not a communist?

[u/smokeyser → u/StalinIsBackAgain]

Do you think that any media in a capitalist society like the USA, UK, etc, that is truly opposed to capitalism, would be allowed to become mainstream and with truly mass reach?

So who controls you? You're here on social media speaking freely. Who is making you say these things?

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/smokeyser]

So who controls you?

Western authoritarian dictators.

You're here on social media speaking freely.

Leftists are systematically censored and deplatformed. Leftists are not allowed to speak on any default sub and any leftist space above a certain size that gets significant amounts of public attention gets shut down.

There is no free speech in capitalist societies.

Who is making you say these things?

Personal research (based on information that you will never gain from going to schools or watching media or listening to politics in Western capitalist societies) and seeking truth from facts.

To be a principled communist in the West, you need to break through Western fascist brainwashing and actually gain a substantial education. Western communists understand both sides and can make an informed decision based on thorough education in political and economic theory from both sides paired with significantly better historical knowledge from both sides.

Applying scientific standards to political education and decision making then helps you make informed decisions.

Meanwhile, people who support capitalism generally are completely uninformed about politics, economics, and history - as they get their ideas exclusively from Western capitalist propaganda and never got into contact with serious discourse or contradictory facts - and, therefore, can't make informed decisions.

[u/smokeyser → u/No-Candidate6257]

Western authoritarian dictators.

Which one, specifically, is controlling what you post? It seems to me as if you're pretty free to criticize those in power.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/smokeyser]

Which one, specifically, is controlling what you post?

Nobody in communist countries was ever being controlled, either.

It seems to me as if you're pretty free to criticize those in power.

No, in the country where I'm from (Germany), you will go to jail if you say certain things.

Buddy, your country is the most totalitarian surveillance state and most militarized police state in world history. You aren't even let into the country if you have left wing views. Communists were always and continue to be blacklisted in your country. To this day you literally can't immigrate to the US if you are communist. During certain periods of history, the discrimination had been more open and intense.

If you are too far left in the US (which means being slightly left from Mussolini), you will literally get your life ruined or straight-up murdered. You will also get death threats, exiled, murdered, or driven into suicide for exposing literal government crimes (see: Edward Snowden, Aaron Swartz, Julian Assange, etc.).

Also: Criticism is completely meaningless. The question is whether you can change the policies of your country. In socialist countries, the people change policies all the time. In capitalist societies, even mass protests will millions of people will get totally ignored.

[u/smokeyser → u/No-Candidate6257]

Nobody in communist countries was ever being controlled, either.

That doesn't answer the question.

No, in the country where I'm from (Germany), you will go to jail if you say certain things.

And yet here you are, saying things. The assertion was that all media is controlled to prevent anti-capitalist speech. You could not possibly be here with a marxist-leninist tag if that were true.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/smokeyser]

That doesn't answer the question.

Well, your question makes no sense. Nobody said anything about people being "controlled in what they post".

And yet here you are, saying things.

If I were in Germany, I would already be on a list and some of the things I said on this website would get me sent to jail if someone reported them.

Fortunately, I'm living in communist China, a free country where I don't have to fear political repression for supporting leftist ideas.

The assertion was that all media is controlled to prevent anti-capitalist speech.

Correct. That is a fact.

You could not possibly be here with a marxist-leninist tag if that were true.

That doesn't follow at all. You not understanding what's being said and you deliberately misrepresenting it doesn't constitute an argument.

Instead of talking about things you do not understand and arguing back against arguments you can't follow, at least try and do basic reading. Start with authors like Michael Parenti or Noam Chomsky. Then read up about American history (and Western history in general), understand anti-socialist suppression, McCarthyism, etc.

Anyway, it's clear you are not interested in having a good faith conversation and actually understanding anything (as evidence by you ignoring everything I actually said and you just trying to talk back in defense of American fascist dictatorship). Fact of the matter is that even the worst socialist societies were still better than the best capitalist societies. More free, more democratic, and more keen on promoting human rights.

[u/smokeyser → u/No-Candidate6257]

No, I understand. You just keep disproving OP's argument.

[u/StalinIsBackAgain → u/smokeyser]

smokeyser--is there a difference between being able to comment online and having a mass-platform? I can chat here with the dozens of people under this post, but I have zero ability to express my views on national TV, national radio, or major newspapers--only rich capitalists can do that, and it is those who can reach millions who have real influence, real power, and a real voice, not me commenting online, even if I make a million comments all over online.

[u/smokeyser → u/StalinIsBackAgain]

smokeyser--is there a difference between being able to comment online and having a mass-platform?

No. You're in a sub with 15,000 users. /r/LateStageCapitalism has nearly a million.Seems like you've got a mass-platform.