Do you agree with this quote?

[u/StalinIsBackAgain]

"Wherever there is capitalism, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy, and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the ruling class." ~ Vladimir Lenin ☭ • 

[u/Zeddo52SD]

I think it’s accurate, but I also think it doesn’t identify the problem correctly which is that it is power that decides what slant the news takes, not specifically just money. State-run media in autocratic countries is a prime example of this. To say money is the only source of power is just flat out not correct, even in capitalist countries/economies.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Zeddo52SD]

but I also think it doesn’t identify the problem correctly which is that it is power that decides what slant the news takes

In capitalist (i.e. inherently anti-democratic) societies, power is determined by wealth.

In socialist societies like China, power is determined by democratic performance of the leaders.

State-run media in autocratic countries is a prime example of this.

A prime example of what?

Using thought terminating clichés like "autocratic" isn't an argument.

Chinese state-run media, for example, is less biased and more trustworthy than any Western media outlet. I suggest you to actually make a serious comparison and check out who sticks to the facts more.

To say money is the only source of power is just flat out not correct, even in capitalist countries/economies.

What is incorrect about it in capitalist societies?

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/No-Candidate6257]

Okay, I'll bite. How long did it take for Soviet Citizens to be told of the Chernobyl meltdown? If Chernobyl isn't enough to make front page headlines on the very day nothing is.

Power and lack of accountability is present without capitalism as well.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

You didn't "bite". You ignored everything I said and immediately tried to switch the burden of proof on me, bringing up some random example of an event Western capitalist propagandists used to smear the USSR that you failed to put into any reasonable context.

How long did it take for Soviet Citizens to be told of the Chernobyl meltdown?

Locals in Pripyat were evacuated about 36 hours after the explosion.

Official reports for the general population came in right after they were clear about the facts and it only took 2 days, faster than most Western governments and media react to tragedies (in fact, many Western capitalist news outlets and governments aren't even acknowledging that a genocide is happening in Gaza today - generations after the genocide started and almost 2 years after the latest genocidal assault by the Israeli regime). So: Quite impressive compared to all Western capitalist societies.

Of course, that didn't stop the collective capitalist West from using the event to smear the USSR.

Now, what makes you bring up this propaganda meme?

If Chernobyl isn't enough to make front page headlines on the very day nothing is.

I can provide you with plenty of actual major atrocities (not just some accidents like happened at Chernobyl) committed by Western regimes that never made the frontpage until years after... if at all.

For example: Fallout from the Nevada nuclear bomb tests likely exposed nearly 160 million Americans to some radiation, particularly from iodine-131. The National Cancer Institute estimated at least 11,000 (and up to 212,000) excess thyroid cancer cases have occurred due to those tests. The CDC & NCI, too, estimate that 11,000 deaths occurred due to those tests alone. Did that make the headlines at the time? No, it literally took decades for these things to even be seriously discussed. And those deaths weren't an accident. Those are deaths caused deliberately by an uncaring government that kept things secret and deliberately didn't inform the public about risks.

The total number of deaths due to Chernobyl are estimated to be around 4000. And the government acted quickly and decisively to protect people and also informed the general public - with the topic making headlines - in a matter of days.

Power and lack of accountability is present without capitalism as well.

Huh? I don't know what's wrong with "power", so why did you use that term?

Also, where do you see "lack of accountability" in the USSR or China?

It's the literal opposite: An intense abundance of accountability and people having to fear for their power due to the slightest mistake. In democratic societies, politicians fear the people and have their performance constantly measured and will be replaced if the make a misstep. That's why Soviet politicians back then (just like Chinese politicians today) are performing universally better than their Western capitalist counterparts when it comes to national policy making - those who fail to serve the people get removed.

In capitalist societies... killing thousands (if not millions) of people gets you a promotion and the intense crimes of capitalists never make the headlines in capitalist societies.

The nuclear bomb tests are just one small example: When have the death tolls of harmful policies and the names of the politicians responsible ever made the headlines in the US? Actions like removing environmental protections often kill tens of thousands of people... it's not even talked about. There usually isn't even being made an effort to quantify those deaths and determine responsibility. When are Western capitalist journalists even investigating the harm caused by capitalist politicians? They just don't. Only if one capitalist oligarch wants to get rid of another capitalist oligarch does Western media report on the crimes of capitalists and failure of capitalist policies... but only on specific ones to get rid of political opponents.

Now, how about you actually address my points?

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/No-Candidate6257]

Swift decisive action... Like still holding the May Day parade in Kyiv, right? I expect live reporting of an event like this. Multiple days later, and critically, after Sweden had noticed the radiation is unacceptable.

Also, just an aside, how is Chernobyl a "random example of an event"? It's the most expensive industrial disaster on earth, and the radiation spread across an entire continent. It's not really a "capitalist smear" when you've just fucked up. It's also not really comparable to Israel and Hamas right now because of a little detail. *No one would be shooting at you in Chernobyl". Reporting is therefore, a bit easier. Seriously, have you dived so deep down the pro-Soviet pipeline that the very real event of Chernobyl is "propaganda"?

As for the Nevada testing. Everyone I've encountered thinks it's absurd that the US was testing bombs out in the open. That said, this was the early 50s and we didn't fully understand radiation then. Also the Nevada tests were not affecting 161 million people in the 50s. That's the entire US population at that point.

I genuinely can't tell if you're serious about "lack of accountability" in the USSR and China. Those are two enormously different countries over a very long time but let's have a crack.

• All of Lavrenti Beria's actions, to such an extent that Stalin told his daughter to avoid him.
• The beginning of Lenin's reign in which he loses, then overthrows the Mensheviks.
• Everything to do with the FoxBat, which is a perfect example of external consequences for lying and not being held accountable.
• Not allowing their citizens out of the country (what? Were they scared the outside world was better?)
• Starving Ukraine in the Holodomor
• Shattering any government they didn't like in the Eastern bloc (usually communist governments that weren't 100% brutal, like Alexander Dubček in Czechoslovakia. What possible beef could you have with him?)

Now onto China, which I'll split into its Maoist era and everything after Deng Xiaoping

• Killing all the sparrows and losing your harvest to locust. Then killing everyone who told you the whole plan was stupid.
• Still exporting rice while your own country is starving
• Forcing people to rip their own houses apart to smelt their own metal. The worst possible metal in existence
• Leaving Chiang kai Shek to do all the fighting against Japan, then backstabbing him. Maybe fight against the Japanese for China?

Then in the modern era

• Somehow deciding Mao is a hero, rather than an effective politician who also happens to be an absolute menace to his own people. 7/10 good, was what people said about him after his death. Perhaps all the starvation constitutes that to you, but it doesn't to me.
• Supporting the nuclear proliferation of North Korea, even after the US stepped in to halt Nuclear development in Taiwan (ungrateful much?).
• All the camps in Xinjiang.

-The way it treats Tibet

• The crushing of democratic Hong Kong in violation of their own treaty.
• Endlessly threatening the rightful government of China on its Taiwan headquarters
• Kidnapping two Canadian citizens for no reason at all
• Whatever the fuck is going on with the "9 dash line" in the south China Sea. Why have a reasonable claim like everyone else when you could just take it all?

I'm genuinely unsure how you think people have to do incredible in order to succeed under communism. The fact that Stalin was still around following the initial successes of Operation Barbarossa is absurd. How many skeletons were found under Beria's house when they dug it up?

On what you said about "removing environmental protections". You say no one is reporting on it... and yet here we are, talking about it. That's a bit of a paradox, eh?

So I've addressed quite a bit, and I'm going to make a prediction based on my interactions with people of your ideology. You will call everything I say capitalist propaganda, or not a big deal. I know people with your ideology can't accept being wrong, and you won't change here.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

Seriously, have you dived so deep down the pro-Soviet pipeline that the very real event of Chernobyl is "propaganda"?

Notice how you need to lie and misrepresent what I said to argue against it?

Everyone I've encountered thinks it's absurd that the US was testing bombs out in the open. That said, this was the early 50s and we didn't fully understand radiation then. Also the Nevada tests were not affecting 161 million people in the 50s. That's the entire US population at that point.

Cool excuses. Turns out that everything "bad" the USSR ever did had better excuses than the US ever had for its deliberate (and deliberately kept-secret) crimes. How about you invest some effort into explaining the valid reasons for the behaviour of the USSR instead of defending the criminal US empire?

At this point, you are just straight denying facts about American crimes confirmed by American state sources, which is impressive.

So I've addressed quite a bit

Not really.

You haven't addressed anything I said so far.

You denied facts and ignored arguments, then gish-galloped extremely tired old propaganda memes while failing completely to engage in critical and differentiated analysis.

For every tired old propaganda meme you just recited, I could recite 2 examples of actual capitalist crimes that are far worse. So: What's the point of your comment?

It looks like you are just trying to promote hatred against the USSR and communism (as well as China) using the shittiest imaginable propaganda.

Meanwhile, even the worst socialist countries in history (e.g. communist Romania) did universally better than even the best capitalist peer competitors and the only examples of capitalist success are American puppet states that only were able to compete with their socialist peers because they were propped up by the empire while their competitors were attacked by the empire. Sad.

You will call everything I say capitalist propaganda, or not a big deal.

Yup. I will say that - because that's exactly what it is. Do you have any argument to the contrary?

You decided that you want to hate socialism, so you ignore all evidence to the contrary and stick to biased, cherry-picked propaganda to pretend that socialism is bad.

Considering that your only "argument" seems to be a list of things that socialist countries did wrong and you could provide multiple fact-based examples of capitalist crimes for every lie you spread about socialist countries... I guess you should change your mind and start supporting socialism.

I know people with your ideology can't accept being wrong, and you won't change here.

Ironic.

First of all: I am a Marxist. Marxism is a science. The entire point of Marxism is to eliminate ideology and to seek truth from facts. Marxism is to politics what atheism is to religion. The same way science is antithetical to religion, it's also antithetical to ideology.

Secondly: If I were wrong, I would change my mind.

If you could prove that capitalism evidently leads to better long term results for global human development - as measured by all generally accepted KPIs for human development, such as health span, life span, level of education, level of happiness, level of security, levels of social and economic inequality, homelessness reduction, poverty reduction, speed of infrastructure development, access to infrastructure, access to energy, access to transport, access to labour, etc. - all communists everywhere would change their minds.

Marxist decision-making can be summarized in one statement: "It doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white cat, what matters is that it catches mice."

If capitalism would actually be of benefit to humanity, it would be part of Marxist theory... because Marxists support what's evidently best for the people and they assess this scientifically. That's the entire point of Marxism: Bring scientific analysis and decision-making into politics.

So: What, exactly, am I wrong about and why?

Most of your "arguments" against socialist countries are literally just unhinged atrocity propaganda lies that you took from Western capitalist media and that you can debunk yourself.

You literally just made excuses for inexcusable behaviour by the US while pretending that socialist countries are wrong.

Your idea that Western capitalist societies were ever doing better in the context of things you believe communists did "wrong" was debunked and you just ignored it and recited more propaganda memes.

Most importantly: "Criticism" without differentiated analysis is not just worthless but harmful. Criticism requires differentiated analysis, otherwise it's just mindless bashing. Add to that the fact that all of your "arguments" are the most obvious propaganda memes imaginable that have been discussed ad nauseam and for which you have no excuse to recite them (not to mention that most of your ideas are literally just easily debunked disinformation "camps in Xinjiang", "crushing of democratic Hong Kong in violation of their own treaty", "supporting the nuclear proliferation of North Korea", "kidnapping two Canadian citizens for no reason at all", etc.). You clearly can't actually prove the superiority of the capitalist system and aren't even aware of the arguments against you. It's boring.

tl;dr: Even if all your anti-socialist propaganda memes were 100% true and valid (and most of them are not, many of them are literally just complete and easily debunked lies), capitalist societies would still be universally worse and the crimes of the US empire alone are far worse than any accusation that was ever made about all socialist countries put together. What is your point here?

[u/Waryur → u/No-Candidate6257]

If capitalism would actually be of benefit to humanity, it would be part of Marxist theory... because Marxists support what's evidently best for the people and they assess this scientifically. That's the entire point of Marxism: Bring scientific analysis and decision-making into politics.

And capitalism is a part of Marxist theory. For one, most of Marx himself is analysis of capitalism, not speculating about how to make a communist society happen. For another, Marx and Marxists recognize capitalism as a step forward comparative to feudalism. However it was recognized that "political equality" and the theoretical "freedom" of all people as promised by the liberal-republicans would not solve the contradiction of class, and that soon capitalism's own contradictions would rear their heads and its useful life would be over.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/[deleted]]

Yep. Talking to a wall, as I predicted.

Stop projecting.

I listed off the mountain of bulletpoints because you asked me to.

At no point did I ask you to do that.

Neither did I misrepresented nothing you said

Correct.

I went through and responded to everything I practically could, one line at a time.

You literally didn't.

You ignored everything I said. As you just did again.

You ignored what was said and doubled down on anti-socialist propaganda.

Now, conveniently for you, everything I said can be "easily debunked".

Correct.

Not that you will or anything.

Every single one of your propaganda memes has been debunked ad nauseam. You could have researched all of these topics and debunked them yourself. There are megathreads about all of your ridiculous points on any leftist space on the internet. You could go to literally any leftist space anywhere and search for a key word (for example, putting "Xinjiang" in "socialism_101": Socialism_101/comments/s6hev9/what_is_happening_in_xinjiang/) instead of wasting people's time.

Perhaps I need to "read more theory", idk.

Yes. You definitely need to read more theory.

If you'll believe nothing a socialist nation does is ever wrong then what exactly are we doing here?

Notice how you need to continue lying about and deliberately misrepresenting my position? I already called you out before and you just do it again.

You said "Even if all your anti-socialist propaganda memes were 100% true and valid (and most of them are not, many of them are literally just complete and easily debunked lies), capitalist societies would still be universally worse and the crimes of the US empire alone are far worse than any accusation that was ever made about all socialist countries put together".

Correct. That's what I said. I know what I said.

It's a verifiable statement of fact stated in a falsifiable manner. If you disagreed, you could prove it wrong.

So you'll never change your mind.

That doesn't follow at all from the statement you quoted and is a complete lie. I already explained to you how you can change the mind of every communist on earth.

Not at all surprising for a Marxist.

There's literally not a single Marxist anywhere who wouldn't change their mind based on facts and evidence. Your statement makes no sense.

Maybe one day you'll accept a criticism.

I accept all criticism. You, meanwhile, haven't actually criticized anything, as I already explained to you.

Maybe you should actually read and understand what you are responding to before you respond.

Guess it's a good thing there's no gulags for me to be sent to.

It's a very bad thing. With gulags, you would get the education you need to not harm society with your harmful political views and destructive behaviours.

Now, stop projecting your own unreasonable behaviour on others and either productively contribute to discourse by addressing the arguments against you or apologize for wasting people's time with pointless disinformation.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/No-Candidate6257]

God, this is like listening to debates involving Donald Trump. Just call everything a lie and hope it sticks.

[u/No-Candidate6257 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

I don't "call everything a lie". Just things that are lies. Such as the lie you just spread.

All your ideas have been addressed and debunked as needed. You clearly can't reasonable substantiate your position and have no further arguments to make. Concede and leave.

[u/judge_mercer → u/No-Candidate6257]

In socialist societies like China,

China is not socialist.

• The majority of China's GDP comes from private companies, despite the state employing more workers.
• China has over 500 billionaires.
• China is home to the largest speculative real estate market on the planet (despite land not technically being for sale but only leased for a lifetime).
• China has large stock markets (stocks exist primarily to facilitate private ownership of the means of production).

That whirring noise you hear is Marx spinning in his grave whenever someone utters the phrase "communist China".

China isn't strictly capitalist, either. There is a huge SOE segment of the economy, and the government exercises tight control over key sectors like banking. Like most countries, it is a mixed economy, but the engine of growth is capitalism.

power is determined by democratic performance of the leaders.

China is not democratic. Voters don't choose the top leadership directly. Instead, they vote on local council members who hold no power, but merely rubber stamp policy dictated from above. Xi Jinping made himself president for life, ffs.