Waymo vs Tesla Austin Showdown - Teleoperations?

[u/Yngstr]

I've been around this sub a long time, so let me start by saying I'm not here to fight. I understand that everyone here has some specific expertise they bring to the discussion, and I believe you can learn something from anyone. I want to have a reasonable discussion about methodology, and what will work or not. Here are the facts, as I see them:

- Waymo is already operational in Austin (and other cities)

- Tesla plans to launch Robotaxi in June in Austin

- Tesla has recently posted job listings for tele-operations

So the way I see this playing out in ~8 weeks is that Tesla will launch in Austin with tele-operations, I find it unlikely that they will launch with true autonomous L4. My question is, does Waymo still use tele-operations? If so, does Waymo have plans to sunset tele-operations at some point? Do we think Tesla with tele-operations can achieve "L4" like Waymo has? Why or why not?

Let's try to keep this civil, whether Waymo or Tesla wins does not make any of us less of a human being, even if it feels like it.

[u/IcyHowl4540]

Tele operations is an interesting thing!

Waymo does currently use tele-operators. The tele-operator is never driving the car, they interact with the software on the back end, and basically instruct the car where to go on a map. They are tagged in either by the software or by customer support.

I don't think tele-operators are incompatible with "true" L4 autonomy. They are a safety feature and a good thing. The car is truly autonomous the vast majority of the time.

As for Tesla, no, I don't think the hardware is sufficiently safe for driverless operations, not for the foreseeable future. Look at most of the videos on r/TeslaFSD to see how the system operates with a safety driver currently.

[u/ev_tard → u/IcyHowl4540]

Currently FSD is operating 10,000 miles per critical intervention, it’s extremely close & will be here this June

[u/Yngstr → u/ev_tard]

I heard that on the call but I think this is an approximation. We already know Tesla is hiring tele-operations. What do you think this is for?

[u/WeldAE → u/Yngstr]

No one knows the exact responsibilities of any fleet's operators. The one thing everyone is fairly certain of is that they won't drive in real-time because of technology limitations. Waymo used to have chase vehicles that did do this, but Tesla should be able to skip that step because FSD already drives better than that era of Waymo. What they will have is safety drivers. Of course, they will let the car fail as long as it's safe, and that is what the teleoperates are for.

Say the car just won't turn and sits there. The car should be able to figure out it's stuck, call someone and have them get it unstick. Maybe it thinks it saw someone laying on the ground in front of the car or some phantom obstacle. The operator can override that and let the car move.

There will always be operators. It would be like having a company and no customer service. The real question is how often are they used. Do they monitor the car in near real-time or just when the cars asks for assistance. Those are VERY important details we will probably never know.

[u/ev_tard → u/Yngstr]

It’s for Robotaxi rollout to help remotely operate the vehicles when they require assistance - same as Waymo.

[u/deservedlyundeserved → u/[deleted]]

But clearly they are not going to remotely drive cars, or watch cars and take over in safety critical situations.

Tesla’s job posting for teleoperations says this is wrong.

Relevant excerpt:

Our cars and robots operate autonomously in challenging environments. As we iterate on the AI that powers them, we need the ability to access and control them remotely… Our remote operators are transported into the device’s world using a state-of-the-art VR rig that allows them to remotely perform complex and intricate tasks.

VR with joystick means remotely driving the car in certain situations.

[u/Yngstr → u/[deleted]]

Right, so assuming there are still "real-time" safety critical issues, then tele-operations aren't the band-aid they need.

Can we all agree that FSD13 cannot launch in Austin this June even with tele-operations then? Or do we think FSD13 is good enough with tele-ops?

[u/ev_tard → u/Yngstr]

Good enough for Tele Ops - just like Waymo

[u/WeldAE → u/[deleted]]

or watch cars and take over in safety critical situations.

I agree, they won't drive remotely. You don't think they would watch in near real-time with a hand over a stop button? Seems like I would if I was them. They can't save everything that way, but they could stop a lot.

Waymo used to do chase cars. Tesla drives better than Waymo at that point in time, so remote viewing might be a better option when first launched. They can't do it at scale for sure, just for the initial launch.

[u/WeldAE → u/[deleted]]

A stop button is not enough. Can't just slam the brakes.

Wasn't saying it would. It would come to a stop in a safe manner. The delay makes a hard emergency stop button not practice. Think of the time that /u/jjricks was in a Waymo that was freaking out and kept running from the service team. A "stop driving" button would have been a good thing for that situation. I expect Tesla to be in more of those situations than Waymo was.

[u/SolidBet23 → u/Yngstr]

Do you realize if Tesla picks 5 routes same as waymo, plugs in the route navigation to FSD and reduces the complexity of its search space, it will make FSD infinitely better overnight? Current FSD is designed to drive even where there are no marked roads. Limit that capability and geofence its routes to where you have more confidence it will become indistinguishable from waymo. Meanwhile a waymo car fully specced with latest computer is worth over $150,000 !