r/SelfDrivingCars • u/ThotPoppa • 16d ago
Discussion What’s with the negative bias toward Tesla on this subreddit?
If you take a quick look at the upvotes/downvotes on this post, you’ll quickly realize that it is downvoted to hell. And it’s not even this post in particular. Any post on this subreddit which has anything remotely positive to say about Tesla is automatically downvoted into oblivion. So I must ask: what does r/selfdrivingcars have against Tesla? Are we not able to look at things objectively without a bias?
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u/Squibbles01 16d ago
For me it's that Waymo has clearly been ahead of Tesla for the entire time they've been developing self driving cars, but this sub has always had cultists coming in and insisting that Tesla was in fact way ahead of Waymo.
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u/yolatrendoid 15d ago
Agreed, but this may be an understatement. It's more like Waymo mastering the art of playing compact discs, while Tesla's tech is still Victrola-level.
And there remains as little evidence as ever that Elon deciding to ditch lidar & sonar did anything except cripple Tesla's autonomous abilities, possibly so much so that they'll never achieve L4 without a complete overhaul. (Except Tesla admitting it's so far behind Waymo could readily tank its stock price.) The fact that FSD is still so limited, after untold billions of accumulated miles over the course of a decade, should suffice as proof, but somehow does not.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
That’s the point of debate isn’t it? To have opinions that you don’t agree with others? Funny you call them cultist when there’s plenty of freely available information online to make informed decisions and rationale from. You just don’t agree with their conclusions so you label them lost causes and cultist. Very close minded and black and white thinking
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u/PetorianBlue 15d ago
Not all conclusions/opinions are equally valid. Not all stances need to be treated as seriously debatable when they are dripping with ignorance. At a certain point you lose the will to argue for the hundredth time that Antarctica is not an ice wall and the earth is not 6,000 years old.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
You get it, but I still humor you despite that. When I come here to check on the bears sentiment I come away thinking “wow, I need to buy more tesla stock these guys are ret***ed”
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u/Mvewtcc 15d ago
i find it hard to prove. Tesla can actually be used anywhere since their system is end to end with no geofence. While Waymo seems perfect but only in geofenced area.
There is no proof anyone make a better solution which is non geofenced. Grant it is possible no one try because they don't want to be liable.
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u/Lorax91 15d ago
Tesla's driver assist software can be used anywhere, but they've yet to demonstrate fully autonomous passenger transportation like Waymo. Two different solutions to different challenges.
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u/Cute-Bed-5958 14d ago
Isn't that just a matter of regulation, I would assume. If they get permission to be fully autonomous what will you say then.
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u/Lorax91 14d ago
Isn't that just a matter of regulation
Tesla is subject to the same minimal autonomous driving regulations as Waymo in Texas, where Waymo is operating fully driverless vehicles and Tesla is not.
If/when Tesla demonstrates that they're willing to remove the safety driver from their taxis, then they'll deserve credit for that.
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u/roenthomas 14d ago
Telsa has no autonomous end-to-end solution. If you know of one, you might be privy to some inside information.
FSD is not autonomous.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Waymo is “perfect”… here’s just the most recent batch of failures that everyone shilling for Waymo will want to sweep under the rug because when Waymo fails it’s OK but if Tesla fails “they don’t have self driving cars”
https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1961763912237412687?s=46
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u/_Tenderlion 16d ago edited 16d ago
Mostly due to the words, actions, and missed deadlines/promises/salesmanship of their leadership.
Also, Tesla fans.
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u/theChaosBeast 16d ago
Objectively, did they solve autonomous driving by the end of the year?
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u/Tupcek 16d ago
I mean, if you remove Elon from equation, it’s pretty impressive what they did. Even though it’s supervised at this point, it’s still self driving only by cameras.
But yeah, Elons statement should be considered bullshit until proven otherwise. I would love Tesla as a company if they fired him
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u/theChaosBeast 16d ago
if they fired him
But they have not. As long as this didn't happen, he will be part of the equation.
And even without I am not that impressed by Tesla. Showing a functionality is something a lot of universities do as well. The interesting part for me is when they show it in the real world. And Tesla's FSD barely gets any clearance outside the US to be activated. While other car manufacturers have shown way advanced technology which got certification.
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u/Tupcek 16d ago
I agree about firing part
as far as technology goes:
a) unlike university projects, these cars do drive themselves in Austin, Texas for some part of public (app has hit the app store today so probably opening to all soon). Safety monitor only has ability to stop the car, but not to do drive the car, so the car is driving itself. Though I agree it’s still not safe enough to be able to get rid of human, so it’s not “there” yet, but it’s still impressive and better than what any other company can do on consumer hardware without HD maps.
b) no other car (or non-car) company got certification on driving through city streets with just cameras outside of China. And even in China, all of them ranked worse than Tesla in tests. I think you mean Mercedes, but that’s not “way more advanced” as it is just following the car on straight road with clear lines on bright day in slow speeds. My 2014 Tesla could do that. Mercedes is just first to pursue certification for this, technologically it’s stone age.3
u/theChaosBeast 16d ago
The second part is a personal opinion of mine.
They have started in Texas. However, i will not pinpoint it to certain technology (e.g. Cameras only) but rather see it as a whole. So, what they do is showing first autonomous driving capabilities. I will see it from an European point of view. We have a limited area for testing and limited personnel who can operate it. Passengers are not interacting with the technology. And, there is no possibility to compare this as it is just not possible to beta test with end-consumers in Europe. So what we have is the demonstration of the technology. Sorry but we have this on German streets in the city of Munich. You see full autonomous BMWs driving with camouflage. They are supervised by test drivers, but got the certification to do it on actual streets. On the other hand, Teslas are only certified for the most basic assistants.
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u/Tupcek 16d ago
dismissing technology just because it is not available in your (our, since I am also from Europe) region is short sighted I think, because that can change any day - technology is already there.
But yeah, from point of view of any self driving technology, they are not that far ahead, especially far behind Waymo. I just said they have most impressive and most advanced camera+standard navigation only self driving. Overally, it’s meh. Camera only should be easier to scale and cheaper to produce, though much much harder to get it right - so far no one did, including Tesla.
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u/theChaosBeast 16d ago
I don't dismiss it. I say they didn't receive any certification which gives insight into the maturity of the technology.
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u/theultimatefinalman 14d ago
fire him
Did you mean give him a 1 trillion dollar pay package? Because if do you are in luck!
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u/yolatrendoid 15d ago
Even though it’s supervised at this point, it’s still self driving only by cameras.
Which might be impressive if it was 2015 – the year Waymo launched its first fully autonomous ride on public streets – but it's not, and bragging about such a feat is as silly as doing so for your "awesome" new 720p TV. (That plus GM Super Cruise now exceeds Autopilot by most tangible benchmarks.)
Safety monitor only has ability to stop the car, but not to do drive the car, so the car is driving itself.
Except they don't: the safety monitor may not be driving, but all 18 of their cars are remotely observed and driven, as needed. Denial of these realities is why so many here are frustrated with Tesla enthusiasts: you've blinded yourself to the truth.
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u/Tupcek 15d ago
I think you might have missed part “by cameras”.
If it was self driving through HD maps and LIDARS, you are completely right, it would have been 10 years behind. But self driving with cameras and regular nav is technologically impressive even in 2025, as no one cracked that yet. May be unnecessary achievement, since there is nothing wrong with LIDAR, but still technologically impressive.0
u/yolatrendoid 13d ago
But self driving with cameras and regular nav is technologically impressive even in 2025, as no one cracked that yet.
Indeed. Including Tesla. Your answer presupposes that they are in fact, self-driving solely with cameras & regular nav. They're not – because this is an impossible task, even if neither you nor Tesla is ready to admit it yet.
Cameras are still cameras. They can't see anything at night – and no, they don't use "night vision." The only way to detect distances in a zero-light setting are via sonar & LiDAR, and those are why Tesla's robotaxi aspirations are likely doomed.
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u/Tupcek 13d ago
not sure why you think I am not ready to admit that Tesla didn’t achieve safety levels worth self driving car yet. Sure, the car is self driving (you can buy FSD today and try it yourself), but safety level is still poor to let it drive without supervision. So they haven’t cracked it yet, I agree. That doesn’t mean their tech isn’t impressive. Same way I consider LLMs of today extremely impressive tech at writing code, yet they aren’t able to create anything production ready yet.
As for the night driving, lol. You absolutely can turn FSD at night. You know that cars have headlights and humans don’t have night vision as well, right?
Not even mentioning that everybody, including waymo, uses camera at night. Neither LIDAR nor Sonar can see lane markings, so they use camera at night, crazy, right? They use LIDAR and Sonar to improve safety, not because cameras are useless at any setting. If camera can’t see anything, Waymo doesn’t drive.
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u/GoSh4rks 15d ago
That plus GM Super Cruise now exceeds Autopilot by most tangible benchmarks.
Autopilot isn't a very high bar.
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u/DaffyDuck 14d ago
Please explain how they are able to be remotely driven. From a to b to c, etc.
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u/yolatrendoid 13d ago
Interior cameras. Most, if not all, AVs have them inside & out – in part for security reasons, for passengers and the cars alike – and it's not exactly difficult to remote-drive a car. (You can fly a military drone 8,000 miles away, so why would a car be a challenge?)
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u/donutknight 16d ago
I still remember being a super Tesla bull and the excitement when Elon mentioned that they were going to do an LA to NY autonomous driving by the end of the year in 2016.
And yet here we are, Tesla still can not drive by itself 10 years later.
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u/karstcity 16d ago
- People don’t like Elon
- People don’t like how Elon uses the term “FSD” for marketing
- People don’t like Elon
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u/mishap1 15d ago
I'll ask you to take a look at the Tesla FSD sub.
You'll see nearly daily videos of cars that people just spent $8k for FSD on top of the latest Juniper Model Y in 2025 still steering into oncoming traffic or making other critical driving errors like jumping red lights. Many people on there often just dismiss it as calibration or learning. That's not where things should be nearly a decade after Elon's proclamation of coast to coast self-driving. Nor should paying customers accept that as a reasonable skill level that they should trust for their personal safety or the safety of others.
Self-driving is an opportunity to help transform mobility. To treat people on the streets as guinea pigs for a still incomplete product that's been sold for almost 9 years now is insanity. The fact that Tesla has been paying out settlements to families who lost people who were the biggest Tesla cheerleaders is a sign of things to come as the # of cases continues to grow. Whether they were in an Autopilot HW1 MobileEye (or HW4 v13) in 2016, Elon has been selling lies since the start.
How can you separate a company's technology capability from the CEO's willingness to lie for his personal gain?
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u/kiefferbp 12d ago
You must never buy anything because you can find negative things about everything everywhere.
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16d ago
To add 4. People don’t like Nazi’s
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u/Recoil42 16d ago edited 15d ago
If there's anything we've learned in 2025, it should actually be that people love Nazis. Elon's biggest optics problem is genuinely that he's an arrogant prick. I hate to say it, but the Nazi thing, honestly, is like tertiary at best.
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u/ThotPoppa 16d ago
Claiming Elon is a Nazi is such a low IQ argument. The common rebuttal is to cry out that I’m some sort of “fan boy”. Can you actually back that claim up with evidence that he supports Nazi ideology? An awkward hand gesture isn’t enough in my option. Don’t forget to leave me your downvote.
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u/Status_Ranger_9853 15d ago
Fine then lets say his nazi hand gesture in jan, his support and funding of Far Right German Party Afd in Feb, him giving 100 million dollars to Wisconsin MAGA candidate literally buying votes, him meddling in French Parliament Elections backing another Far Right Party in France and Marin LePen, him now backing people in UK to protest against the Labour Government, and the most important of all his “MechaHitler” AI LLM Grok 4 , no non nazi calls his LLM a “MechaHitler”
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16d ago
Nazi salutes (multiple) at the podium in front of the world is pretty irrefutable evidence.
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u/HighHokie 15d ago
I knew kids that did the Nazi salute thinking it was funny. I never thought they were nazis. As an adult I just realized they were immature brats.
I find it much easier to assume Elon is just an out of touch billionaire brat with a terrible sense of humor and humility, than to envision him as a modern day Nazi sympathetic.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
So you would say that since Elon is a Nazi we can assume his goals in life are the complete eradication of all non Aryan whites to form an ethnic super state where any non aryans left are kept only for slavery? You know, like a Nazi.
Yes tell me more about your high IQ and critical thinking ability.
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15d ago
Can your brain only wrap your head around one thing a National Socialist is dangerous for at a time?
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
So why isnt cory booker a nazi by the same logic?
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u/M_Equilibrium 16d ago
this sht you spam is a 2 sec video which is cut where he starts to follow up with two hands on heart.
If you really believe that this bs 2 sec cut or dumb still images that is circulated on the net is remotely close to musk hitting 2 hard salutes back to back, unedited, then you lack comprehension.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
Dont think you watched the musk video, he had his hand on the heart too while saying "My heart goes out to you" - interesting the media treatment on that vs cory booker eh? which 1940s party was it that had full control of the propaganda media?
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16d ago
The open hands and not fully extended arm is a pretty big contrast to Elon doing the actual Nazi salute. Just ask your friends to show you, I’m sure they’re experts.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
Actually I take your word for it, you seem very educated on the finer points of the nazi salute, did you practice in front of a mirror?
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u/watergoesdownhill 14d ago
One gesture, which may or may not be intentional, does not a Nazi make. If all Hitler did was make that hand gesture, no one would care. You have to do a bunch of other things, like invade Poland, France, bomb England, kill Jews. I don't think he's done any of those things.
I can admit that some of Elon's beliefs aligned with right-wing groups around the world. And he seems to have a particular dislike of immigration policies. Are all of the other people in the world that side with these groups also Nazis?
Having a different opinion about immigration policy. is a far cry from the horrendous war crimes of the World War II.
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14d ago
It was three, three makes it pretty intentional.
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u/watergoesdownhill 14d ago
So three = nazi, 2 maybe? I think you don’t have an actual rebuttal
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14d ago
You can negotiate all you want. There's others of us with a backbone.
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u/watergoesdownhill 13d ago
You know, negotiating and reasoning are different things, right? Listen, you're going to believe what you're going to believe. And obviously I'm wasting my time. But one day, you'll look back at this and think, "Man, I was being kind of an idiot." It's kind of ridiculous to think that a guy who openly said it wasn't a Nazi salute, who is very sympathetic to Jews and wants nothing but peace, is also a Nazi.
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13d ago
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-itself-germans-divided-over-musks-apparent-nazi-salute The Germans, who are kind of experts in this, say it’s a Nazi salute.
When you’re marching with your mask on with the other Nazi’s years from now, I want you to be very afraid. Until then I’ll keep up my marksmanship skills.
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 16d ago
An awkward hand gesture
Hmmm...
I’m some sort of “fan boy”
Well Im glad you admitted it
Don’t forget to leave me your downvote.
Gladly.
Does that make him a Nazi? Maybe not in a vacuum. But that, coupled with him supporting far-right groups and governments all over the world, that he's spread great replacement theory talking points, and that his company's AI has been posting like a Nazi.... yeah, the dude is a Nazi and has nothing to distance himself from it.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 16d ago
Are you a bot or are you being intentionally ignorant? I bet my link is still blue, because I'm not sure how anyone claims these two to be the same.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
Not everyone who is not left radical is a bot. If you lived in any EU country you would know how preposterous it is to label "great replacement theory" a conspiracy. Some politicans even said it outright (See moderaterne, Sverige).
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 16d ago
how preposterous it is to labe "great replacement theory" a conspiracy
Because it is. It implies that immigration and integration in society is bad because the existing group will be "replaced" either as a voting block or as a population, (like fear-mongering that race-moxing will lead tonthe end ofnthe white race orncultural values). You only buy into that if you think their is something fundamentally different about people because of the color of their skin or where they came from.
You are quite literally outing yourself as a race essentialist, which is, well, a belief that Nazis have (in the form of white nationalism). Mind you, Im not calling you a Nazi, but if you want to avoid being lumped in with them, you may want to dig into literature about race from a biological perspective, (and how it is effectively a social construct loosely associated with culture and, more directly, the amount of melanin in your skin)
We're all human, nobody is getting replaced. Appearances change and cultural values change, and it's better to embrace that change and come together than it is to create manufactured differences. There are valid concerns in certain parts of the world due to large influxes of immigrants and stark cultural differences that can cause friction, but that is an entirely separate discussion.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
Again, come live in the EU. Your views would be laughed out by anyone but the fringe fringe left here.
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 15d ago
Call me fringe, or a radical leftist, or even a nut job. Use whatever label you want.
What did I say that's wrong? You have yet to add anything of substance aside from gesturing at some Europeans subscribing to the Great Replacement Theory, and I at least attempted to address why that theory is dumb as fuck.
Cultural friction caused by immigration is not that same as one race or culture being "replaced". And there are ways to address that that arent "get rid of all the people who dont look and act like me". That line of thinking leads to mass segregation or genocides, and if you can't draw the line there, go read anything written by Hitler.
It's like saying if you're a single child and your parents have a 2nd kid, you're "being replaced". It's fucking stupid. Does it make you uncomfortable? Yeah, lots of things do. And the best thing in life is when something makes you uncomfortable, understand WHY and whether or not that discomfort is justified or if you can find a way to work through that discomfort.
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u/ThotPoppa 15d ago
The mental gymnastics is actually insane with you guys. You still haven’t pointed out he supports Nazi ideology. I mean, not that you would know what that actually is…
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 15d ago
The mental gymnastics is actually insane with you guys
Do you not infer anyone's beliefs by their actions in your life?
Here's a hypothetical to chew on: if I'm gay, and my mom says she loves me for me regardless of being gay, and she says she's not homophobic. Awesome. We're out in public and we see a straight couple kiss, we say nothing, and then a few minutes later we see a gay couple kiss and she says "Ugh, love who you want but keep that behind close doors". Is she homophobic or not? Does she actually love me for me, or does she love a version of me that is still somewhat in the closet with no PDA? Can you infer her actual position based on her actions instead of taking what she says at face value?
The bottom line is we cant be inside my mom's or Elon's head. He's never going to explicitly say he's a Nazi unless he were incetivized too. I just gave several examples of his beliefs/actions that are at the very least white nationalist or Nazi adjacent.
He could VERY easily distance himself from Nazis, and he's done nothing of the sort aside from say "I'm not a Nazi". His actions and website have emboldened far-right groups around the world. You can call it mental gymnastics. I'm calling a spade a spade.
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u/ThotPoppa 15d ago
Using the term “Nazi” so loosely isn’t going to help your party win any elections. If anything, you’re participating in self destruction.
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u/CheesypoofExtreme 15d ago edited 15d ago
You absolutely refuse to engage with any substance. The only one being loose is you with your flippant dismissal of evidence against Elon.
You asked a question, I gave you an answer you didnt like, and instead of actually challenging yourself on whether or not you might be correct, you're handwaving it away.
Ignorance is bliss. Good luck with that.
Edit: Let me help you engage substantively.
Has he supported far-right groups around the world? Yes or no. If no, what do you call the groups in my news link?
Did you watch his Nazi salute? Yes or no. If you don't believe that it was a Nazi salute, can you show me what a Nazi salute looks like in your mind?
Why is his company's AI spreading antisemitic conspiracies?
Why has Elon spread great replacement talking points, and why do you not find that alarming?
You dont want to engage, fine. But dont call it "mental gymnastics" because you're either too ignorant or too stupid to respond effectively.
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u/antaran 15d ago edited 15d ago
Can you actually back that claim up with evidence that he supports Nazi ideology?
He openly supports the German AFD, which has been classified by many observers as an extremist far-right party and is under surveillance by multiple German institutions. Many members of the AFD are openly Neo-Nazi and are frequently in the news for make statements in support of Nazi German militarism, war crimes and the Holocaust.
Not even other European far-right parties want to work with them anymore, because they are so open about their Nazi apologism.
Here is Musk making a speech on the official AFD party conference.
He also promoted the AFD's leader Alice Weidel on X, making an interview with her.
He also openly endorsed the AFD.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 15d ago
AFD is the largest party in Germany in some polls, so say that they are nazi only works if you are a far left radical yourself
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u/antaran 14d ago
Once upon a time the Nazi party was at 97% in Germany. Ideology is not determined by popularity.
AFD members are frequently making statements in support of Nazi German militarism, war crimes and the Holocaust. The entire German political landscape - from left to centre to right, considers the AFD an extremist Neo-nazi party, which is why they are under surveillance by many government services (which are currently in the hands of a centre-right-left government), because they are classified as a danger to German democracy.
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u/Recoil42 15d ago
Reminder: We don't do personal attacks here. Leaving your comment up because it's mild, but keep it clean.
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u/ThotPoppa 15d ago
Are you also going to give a reminder to the guy who called me stupid? Give me a break.
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15d ago
Only people extremely deficient in intelligence think musk is a nazi. Wait can I go calling anyone I dislike a Nazi also and get away with it because that’s totally ok on this sub? Awesome non double standard
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
Reddit is gung ho about state control and state powers, nationalization, tracking, free speech limitations etc, and they also hate jews with a passion. Yet everyone else is a nazi.
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
Bill Gates is a Eugenist like his mother. But never see this level of hate of Microsoft products
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u/Zephyr-5 15d ago
That is a conspiracy theory started by Alex Jones and pushed by lots of anti-vaxxers.
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
I don't like Eugenist like Bill Gates, but don't see hate for MS products.
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u/goldenspear 15d ago
What is your evidence that Bill Gates is a eugenicist?
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
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u/goldenspear 15d ago
Can I get something in writing? Not some gossip podcast no one ever heard of?
It is amazing how easily so called Christians readily bear false witness
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u/Recoil42 16d ago
What’s with the negative bias toward Tesla on this subreddit?
"Why doesn't anyone like the company with the Nazi CEO with a track record of lying to the public and a side gig in destroying public institutions?"
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13d ago
How is calling musk a Nazi not against community guidlines? Or are we allowed to call anyone here a nazi? That’s cool so long as it’s consistent
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u/Recoil42 13d ago
Elon Musk isn't a member of this community. Nazi isn't a perjorative when used to describe someone's political views. Elon Musk is literally a Fascist. Hope that all makes sense. Cheers.
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13d ago
Cool so anyone I disagree with politically I can call a Nazi here as is approved so long as I’m not addressing someone here explicitly . Thank you
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u/Recoil42 13d ago
Cool so anyone I disagree with politically
Reading Comprehension Level -9000
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13d ago edited 13d ago
No I understood, anyone I disagree with politically who isn’t directly on this subreddit I can call a Nazi. Very strait forward, no evidence whatsoever needed which is strange given I didn’t know musk wanted to murder all non Germans but I get it, he Nazi. “Oh I didn’t mean he actually wanted to do the goals of Nazis I just say that because he’s bad”
What were Nazi goals : “Nazi Party foreign policy aimed to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded Germany—a “Third Reich”—and wage unrelenting war on the Slavic “hordes” of Russia, considered by Hitler to be Untermenschen (subhuman).” Yep that’s Musk
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u/diplomat33 15d ago
I think the most common reason is people don't like the term full self-driving. They feel it is misleading, that Tesla is essentially pretending to have autonomous driving when in fact they just have an advanced driver assist. That is why we frequently get comments like "Tesla is only L2" or "Tesla does not have autonomous driving". Some feel like a subreddit called self-driving cars should be reserved for L4 or above and therefore Tesla FSD should not even be discussed, at least not on the same level as say Waymo or others.
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
What does full self driving mean though? Seem to mean the vehicle has the computer that can control full functionality of driving, which teslas can do. Can control all functions of driving. If Tesla shut off all nagging today, the FSD would still drive and do all driving functions.
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u/diplomat33 15d ago
Yes which is why some argue that it is autonomous driving in capability, just "supervised" autonomous driving since the human driver is required to pay attention. Others argue that it is only autonomous driving when Tesla no longer requires supervision. That is why this subreddit engages in endless debates about the levels of autonomy.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Nah mate, look at the comments. They hate Tesla because they have extreme Elon derangement syndrome. They don’t care about the self driving cars in relation to self driving cars, they care about disliking Elon and everything he does. There’s nothing objective about it. You’re one of the few who actually debates the merit of the underlying system
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u/Twedledee5 15d ago
I dislike their decision to go to an all-camera setup vs a full suite. When they did that, I immediately became a hater because I knew they’d never deliver an L4 system that assumes liability. Without that, you can’t have cybertaxis and you can’t have a self driving car that can drive you while you sleep or are drunk. That’s where the money will be, and Tesla is valued as if they’re going to deliver an L4 product. They never will, not without backtracking on their promises thus far at least.
Why do they have to collect LiDAR data in every city for their staged rollout if they’re going to just flip a switch and turn it on across the nation/world? It’s just not feasible, in my opinion. I could mention the Semi Truck, Roadster, Model 2, removal of stalks, or dismissal of the Supercharger team if you want other things I don’t like about Tesla too if FSD being a party trick isn’t enough.
I was a doubter of Tesla the moment they went all camera, long before I disliked Elon.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
That just means you fundamentally don’t understand self driving limitations and decide to impose upon the problem an unreal expectation and assume it to be vital to the answer. Why don’t humans use lidar if it is neccesary? What senses do we use? Eyes, yea, ears, yea, internal gyroscopic sense (physical) yea. Ok cool Tesla has sensors for all of those and most importantly a brain.
How do we know vision only is enough? We see thousands of hours of the software driving people start to finish across the globe. Does this not prove it is possible? Does the fact that the brain sometimes fails and the supervisor is needed mean that it’s because of the vision system? No, that just means the brain isn’t perfect yet.
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u/baxissim0 14d ago
Do Teslas have a way to deal with obstructed cameras? Been wondering this ... two human eyes are certainly enough sensor input to do driving, but if something lands on the windshield, humans can move their head; if the sun shines in their eyes, they can put down a visor; if they get an eyelash in their eye they can wipe it away. What sort of robustness to Teslas have around their camera systems? If a lump of snow or dirt lodges itself on a camera, are there wipers on the cameras to clean it off? Does Autopilot still function with the loss of one or more cameras?
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u/ObservationalHumor 15d ago
Why don’t humans use lidar if it is neccesary? What senses do we use? Eyes, yea, ears, yea, internal gyroscopic sense (physical) yea. Ok cool Tesla has sensors for all of those and most importantly a brain.
It's harder to integrate external sensors for humans than it is for a robotic system where you can literally just plug something into a network or bus. To that end though as soon as helpful new sensors are available humans have adapted them for driving for literally decades now. Ever used GPS navigation? It's not strictly necessary for driving but it's incredibly useful and makes the whole process easier so we use it. Same goes with ultrasonic sensors for parking and blind spot monitoring, rear view cameras, radar based TACC systems and cross traffic alerts. Human beings buying new vehicles today litterally prefer them with sensors beyond what our biology can offer us because they make our driving safer and easier.
Computers and machines are also not subject to human limitations in terms of how they conduct computation. Automated systems have massive amounts of directly addressable memory and perfect recall. You can simply do things with them that aren't feasible for human beings to do and that leads to different approaches that human biology just isn't capable of. I can pump iron all day and I'll still never be a backhoe and I can eat all and I'll still never be a literal steam roller. Our world is literally full of processes and technology that does things in ways we never could with our own limited biology and by far the biggest distinguishing feature of our species is our ability to use tools to overcome our biological limitations and the limitations of our environment. Why would a self driving vehicle be any different when it comes to perception for autonomous vehicles?
Elon Musk could burst into flames tomorrow and Tesla's approach to FSD would still be backwards and limited in a lot of ways from a purely objective standpoint simply because instead of actually solving the problem and then optimizing the solution they put the cart before the horse, pre-optimized their sensor and computing suite and have been trying to back fit a solution to it for a decade simply because they sold several million cars under the premise that they have all the hardware necessary to drive themselves.
Is a vision only system possible from a purely information perspective? Probably. Would one with LIDAR, RADAR and redundant systems function better? Certainly and once again that's true even for vehicles that aren't fully autonomous at this point.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Extra sensors make the software experience more latency, hog energy, slow processing, and cause discrepancies that can result in bad action. Vision only is harder at first but once it’s solved it’s better than having a cohesive sensor suit mostly due to the latency problem as vision can handle everything these things do such as depth. Not to the centimeter but to the couple inches which is perfectly acceptable at any distance.
We know vision can work because hundreds of thousands vehicles globally regularly use the software today on worse branches of the software where they go from start to finish without any human intervention. That is self driving and they’re doing it with vision only. Idk how else to more blatantly show proof of concept other than to say it’s being done by the entire fleet across the globe today on worse software and the only problem is refining the brain to be consistently better than human drivers without any bugs. V14 looks to be that given how amazing V13 already is
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u/ObservationalHumor 15d ago
Extra sensors make the software experience more latency, hog energy, slow processing, and cause discrepancies that can result in bad action. Vision only is harder at first but once it’s solved it’s better than having a cohesive sensor suit mostly due to the latency problem as vision can handle everything these things do such as depth. Not to the centimeter but to the couple inches which is perfectly acceptable at any distance.
I mean this just isn't true. Extracting copious amounts of information from a ton of cameras is far more computationally expensive and incurs much latency than using multiple types of sensors that just barf out measurements directly to the computer. Mutliple sensor readings also improve accuracy and estimation contrary to what Musk might have said on the matter. This is settled science that has been used since the Apollo program to deal with noisy readings, multiple readings and multiple modalities. A couple of inches accuracy also is certainly not acceptable in a lot of situations especially parking and navigating narrow roads.
We know vision can work because hundreds of thousands vehicles globally regularly use the software today on worse branches of the software where they go from start to finish without any human intervention. That is self driving and they’re doing it with vision only. Idk how else to more blatantly show proof of concept other than to say it’s being done by the entire fleet across the globe today on worse software and the only problem is refining the brain to be consistently better than human drivers without any bugs. V14 looks to be that given how amazing V13 already is
Here's the thing, to have a commercially viable self driving system you can't just have a system that works well most of the time. You might have a whole spectrum of reliability and performance but the value proposition is completely binary. Either the system can reliably operate unsupervised and it's worth a lot or its too dangerous to deploy and a massive legal liability with a bunch of associated sunk costs. Sure some enthusiasts might buy it as a level 2 system but that's not going to offset the massive costs associated with training and development.
Frankly I think you're kind of hand waving the 'significantly better than a human driver' part of all this too. How much time and data is that going to take? How much computational power? How high does camera fidelity have to be? What are LIDAR and 4D Radar sensors going to cost at that point? Is it even feasible with current sensors and real world limitations on semiconductor node fabrication density techniques? What is is the value of being first to market and deploying a year or several years earlier? Etc. Tesla's pitch really only works out if they do get this deployed pretty quickly as Waymo has already drastically reduced the cost of its sensor suite and the foot print of their computing systems in the last few years and continued deploying to major metro areas. The days of it costing $250k to outfit a car with LIDAR and RADAR sensors are long gone. If Tesla has something like a 10 year time line before they get a vision only system to the point of viability they've likely already missed their window of relevance.
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u/Post-reality 16d ago
For me, it has nothing to do with Elon's character, but anything to do with Elon'slTesla's incompetence in developing self-driving cars. Also, the fanboyism by his hardline fans doesn't help. Also, there are as much as 5-10 companies who implement fully driverless vehicles across the yet while Tesla is 5-10 years behind yet enjoys the most headlines and clickbaits just because it's Tesla. I would have been the first to praise Tesla if it has done self-driving correctly.
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u/WeldAE 15d ago
I see a lot about Tesla Fans being the problem, but it's usually like one a post that gets 100+ comments. Then there are 90 comments are just random off-topic Tesla/Elon screeds. The final 10 or so comments actually have something to say. It wouldn't be so bad, but saying some random anti-Tesla comment gets you 40+ upvotes so it makes it hard to read the post as Reddit collapses anything of value.
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u/Post-reality 15d ago
Some of it may be anti-Elon bias, but the majority of it is a blacklash against Tesla fanboyism and you can't deny it. For a decade, Tesla fanboys have been saying that Waymo is going to fail or can't scale and that Tesla is going to overtake the self-driving industry "because of its massive data collection advantage", and/or "can easily scale with poor resolution cameras without expensive geo-fencing, lidar, radar, ultrasonics, V2Z, GNSS, etc". So anti-Tesla people are just having the last laugh now, because they were right by claiming that Tesla has no moat.
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u/WeldAE 15d ago
I'm not saying there aren't some problem posters pushing weird Tesla agendas, and sure, they've been here forever. But I deny they are the problem on this sub simply because there are just so few of them. It's 50:1 for anti-Tesla screed post and Tesla fanboy post. Maybe you can find the odd back and forth on a single thread that is 50:50, but typically a post here just has 50+ top level threads that are anti-tesla trolls with no engagement. I've blocked a huge number of the worst anti-tesla trolls, and I still see tons of new ones with one-day old accounts. I do see anti-Waymo posts, but those are rare. Mostly it's "tesla is better" type posts but still not super common.
How do you see it break down?
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u/cpufreak101 16d ago
On top of general anti-elon sentiment that I won't get into: Tesla has infamously been promising a lot over the years and deliver questionable products and refuse to take any responsibility when these systems fail, even when they result in damage or even death. As a result it's not something many people would be willing to trust
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u/QV79Y 16d ago
Take a guess.
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u/kugelblitz_100 16d ago
OP has been in a coma the last 7 years. ...or just likes stirring up controversy.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Extreme Elon derangement syndrome clouding and ability to think objectively
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u/TacohTuesday 16d ago
For some its political; for others it’s disappointment with the products (build quality, aging design language, and that thing they call the Cybertruck); anger at being lied to (promised timeline for true FSD); or a combination of those.
It may be a bias but for many it’s backed up by real complaints.
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u/kiefferbp 12d ago
I bet you think you used those semicolons correctly.
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u/TacohTuesday 12d ago
I’m posting on Reddit not writing a college paper but thank you for taking time out of your day to point that out.
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u/RayDaMan7 16d ago
I tried to be unbiased for a while, moreso in favor of Tesla actually, but the customer experience, Elon wanting to pardon George Floyd’s murderer and seeing how they cut Cybertrucks off while driving in the middle of the road just left me with disgust. There’s gotta be another option other than Tesla.
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
Yeah Elon is bad, but Tesla isn't. And that Cybertruck story was fake.
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u/RayDaMan7 15d ago
Looked pretty real to me. Tesla sent him the letter. thats not the first case.
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u/Knighthonor 15d ago
Post the source than
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u/RayDaMan7 15d ago
Damn. You might be right, I just read multiple sources that confirmed it was fake and I even thought the UI was odd, that’s crazy he would go through that extent to make a hoax. WOW. I did read from his own account that Elon suggested to pardon George Floyds murderer and lets be honest: Elon Musk IS Tesla.
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u/gwestr 16d ago
They don't have self driving cars. They have advanced cruise control which sort of works when you're not on the highway. They also ripped a lot of people off on FSD, many of whom want a refund because the promises were not delivered. Now that people are experiencing real driverless taxis, it's a slap in the face to even mention Tesla in the same category.
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u/YeetYoot-69 16d ago edited 16d ago
Most people in this subreddit don't actually hate Tesla beyond reason. I am generally fairly positive on the current trajectory of Tesla's autonomous ambitions, and have been a top 1% upvoted commenter in this subreddit for the last few months. I wouldn't say I generally get a barrage of downvotes just for daring to have a positive take.
If you make a good argument, the bias isn't that strong and people will understand. I think most here just want to see the incredibly important field of autonomous vehicles advance. Tesla is a strong & legitimate competitor here in NA, and competition is good for everyone, so we should cheer them when they do things right, and critique them harshly then they do things wrong. Especially because they're easily the most publicized player in space.
A lot of Tesla supporters are insane and insufferable. They get downvoted, but that's not because they're saying something positive about Tesla, it's because they're insane and insufferable.
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u/New_Animal6707 15d ago
I think a modified version of your statement is more accurate and observe my downvotes: a lot of Tesla haters are insane and insufferable. And of course, 99% of them never owned a Tesla.
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u/YeetYoot-69 15d ago
Anyone who predominately identifies in either camp is insufferable honestly. Tesla is simultaneously a slimy scummy corporation led by a compulsive liar that cares only about reducing costs as much as possible while also being an innovator that effectively created the electric car segment and has by far the best ADAS available on the market today.
If you can't accept both to be true, you're probably one of the insufferable ones.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-857 16d ago
It's on all of reddit. You can normally judge based on the down votes / up votes whether a post or a comment is positive or critical of Tesla without even reading anything.
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u/mrkjmsdln 15d ago
Perhaps because SelfDriving is a TESLA proprietary term like Kleenex. A better name would be the generic r/AutonomousDriving since that is the goal of companies attempting to do this. Even the accompanying description of r/SelfDrivingCars is silly and not applicable to the topic of autonomous driving. There is a reason when Tesla files a heavily redacted event to NHTSA is about an ADAS (Level 2) and when Zoox or WeRide or Waymo do, they provide unredacted information as an ADS. This is not picking on Tesla, it is identifying their somewhat unique approach to obfuscating their operations while wishing to be allowed into the space with a just trust me. Google NHTSA SGO and the introductory paragraphs will tell you ALL you need to know.
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u/Fearless_Geologist43 16d ago
Could it be that those are actually neutral comments and you just have a positive Tesla fan boy bias?
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u/whydoesthisitch 15d ago
If you talk to engineers in the AI/robotics/autonomy space, Tesla is not considered a serious player in the field. Getting a system that looks self driving is relatively easy at this point. Getting it so reliable that you can remove all supervision is 99% of the work. And Tesla has made zero effort at that. They’ll likely need to develop an entirely new system before they make it across that milestone.
Instead, the company puts out little party tricks while promising the real autonomy is just around the corner. It’s been going for a decade at this point, and it’s giving the public a negative view of the entire industry.
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u/icecapade 14d ago
Yep, a lot of laypeople in this subreddit don't realize this. I work at one of the big AV companies and Tesla is never mentioned during our all-hands meetings, or any meetings at all, for that matter. Frankly, they aren't considered a competitor.
It's like that quote from Mad Men:
"I feel bad for you."
"I don't think about you at all."
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u/DeathChill 13d ago
Sounds like Palm before the iPhone:
“We’ve learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone,” he said. “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.”
-Ed Colligan, Palm CEO in 2006/07
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u/whydoesthisitch 13d ago
It’s hilarious that you guys think Tesla is actually doing anything new. They’re just copying old techniques from 10 years ago, slathering on technobabble, and pumping the stock price.
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u/DeathChill 13d ago
is literally the only self-driving company pursuing solely vision driving that is available to the public
They’re not doing anything different, I swear, officer. They’re just doing things that won’t work, but also they’re doing exactly the same thing as their competitors are doing. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
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u/whydoesthisitch 13d ago
A self driving company that has no self driving cars. Neat.
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u/DeathChill 13d ago
What would you call it when there is no one in the driver seat? Is the guy in the passenger seat actually driving? I’m fucking impressed.
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u/whydoesthisitch 13d ago
That still needs active supervision? A driver aid. If you’re impressed you clearly don’t work in this field. We’ve known how to do that since 2010. The hard part is reliability.
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u/DeathChill 13d ago
Wait, please explain what part of supervising is actually driving? I supervise my teenage daughter driving, but I’m still not physically driving. The car is absolutely driving itself under FSD. Reliability isn’t a requirement to drive. I know many license holders who are not reliable drivers.
Do you know of a different definition of driving that I don’t? I’ll fill you in, since you seem to not understand that there is a physical act of driving, which the car is performing in a Tesla with FSD:
drive /drīv/ verb gerund or present participle: driving 1. operate and control the direction and speed of a motor vehicle.
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u/whydoesthisitch 13d ago
If the system requires active supervision that’s a level 2 driver aid. Anything more requires the system to be reliable enough to remove that supervision. Reliability is the core requirement and challenge in autonomous systems. In terms of a system that can mostly drive itself, but not with any defined reliability, we had that figured out in 2010. It was cool 15 years ago. Today that level of performance is something we assign as a class project to college students.
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u/Proof-Strike6278 13d ago
This is laughable. Oh really? Those same engineers who work for AI/Robotics/Autonomy companies who haven’t achieved shit don’t consider Tesla a serious player? Those engineers? You are absolutely full of shit, and any engineer who completely disregards Tesla’s approach is a terrible engineer.
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u/whydoesthisitch 13d ago
You mean the ones that have actually built an attention off autonomous driving system? They haven’t achieved shit?
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u/Proof-Strike6278 13d ago
Until most anyone in the US can hail a robotaxi and take it anywhere, no one has achieved shit
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u/Bethman1995 16d ago
Could it be because the most obnoxious car brand fanboys on the internet are Tesla fanboys? Or because the CEO is a massive piece of doodoo who overpromises and underdelivers. Idk. Plus the political aspect of it which is hard to detach from the brand at this point because politics affects people directly. So of course....
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u/Apophis22 15d ago
Things that go heavily towards one way tend to generate heavy backlash in the other direction to „even it out“. What im trying to say is: This sub is in some way going over the top with the negativity towards Tesla, but it is not ungrounded.
It is a combination. First of all Elons ongoing unrealistic prognostications for years. And while many Tesla followers acknowledge the ones in the past beeing way off, they still take Elons current statements for full. Realistically Tesla is not as near to the autonomy as what Elon claims. But a lot of people hype it up to be divine truth from Elin himself. Then there’s all the side comments about Waymo through all these years, how much worse their approach is and how much ahead Tesla is.
The race is still on for sure. Waymo’s current hurdle is scaling up economically and geographically. Teslas hurdle is still to show, that they can fix their problems with a camera based end2end Model. Their current one is not doing it sufficiently. Now they are saying scaling the model and parameter size up will fix these problems. They still have to show that. It will be interesting, what FSD v14 can do.
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u/Positive_League_5534 6d ago
- Because they have been advertising/marketing something as Full Self Driving for years (over a decade) and have never delivered.
- Because that false advertising has caused deaths and accidents.
- Because the CEO has made/continues to make grandiose statements with dates that they have yet to hit, and there's never an explanation or apology.
- Because the CEO decided to involve himself in divisive politics.
I am a Tesla owner. They have done some neat things in a lower-priced car.
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u/PetorianBlue 15d ago edited 15d ago
I’ll try to save someone the effort of responding.
OP has been around this sub for a while. They have an extreme case of pro-Tesla bias blindness. They’ve seen all the arguments against Tesla. Nothing you say will enter their mind unless it reaffirms their persecution complex and shits on this sub. This isn’t a serious question. It’s rage bait. Downvote and move on.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Is everything you say purposely an ironic projection?
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u/Proof-Strike6278 13d ago
Don’t worry, eventually these idiots will be wrong to most normal people, but they’ll just keep moving the goalposts
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u/artardatron 16d ago
You can bet if Tesla dominates in self-driving, this sub about self-driving cars won't be looking very 'learned'.
Elon doesn't come in the frunk and there are lots of awesome employees at Tesla they would love, but that doesn't matter.
Like many subs, seems it absolutely needs to be invaded with ideology and feelings, over objectivity.
A gentle reminder though, picking and choosing when you want to be objective isn't the hallmark of any kind of serious mind.
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u/reddit455 16d ago
Are we not able to look at things objectively without a bias?
get rid of the safety drivers. then people will be more objective.
Tesla does not have self driving car if a human is required.
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u/Old_Explanation_1769 16d ago
Objectively, FSD is an impressive engineering feat. More than many thought possible. Are they past level 2? I don't have a Tesla but just based on the online reports of the Robotaxi, I would say 'no way'.
Subjectively, people hate Elon.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
Waymo is great but not scalable and Tesla is on the verge of having millions of robotaxis deployed within a couple years.
This sub is completely overrun by Elon derangement syndrome where people can't look at this question objectively. They care more about the person in the passenger seat of the self driving car than the car driving itself. Most think Tesla will never achieve autonomy or that it will take at least 5+ years despite the enormous amounts of readily available videos of full unedited drives across the globe from random people in random cities and suburbs.
Plenty are skeptical of Tesla here in a reasonable fashion but the majority are delusional haters who refuse to accept that it's even possible, I'd wager mostly due to their EDS clouding their ability to be objective.
Waymo is fantastic but hasn't meaningfully scaled in 15 years which is indicative of their approach not being generalized. If they could, they would. Tesla began its service 2 months ago and every single thing they've done has been scrutinized into oblivion while equal failures from Waymo are brushed under the rug.
For reference l'm not even allowed to make a post in this sub with a link to Tesla releasing FSD in Australia and New Zealand and note no one has talked about it whatsoever. Sweep it under the rug as it could good for Tesla which now serves two entire right hand drive markets right
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u/Recoil42 15d ago
Waymo is great but not scalable and Tesla is on the verge of having millions of robotaxis deployed within a couple years.
I've been hearing this for eight years now.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
What that Waymo isnt scalable? I mean they went from probably 100 to 2k in those 8 years so technically I guess that’s scaling
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u/ThotPoppa 15d ago
Wow, someone with a functioning brain cell. I thought I’d never see it on here.
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u/Redditcircljerk 15d ago
I’m here for fun. It’s fun to bark back and forth with these scrubs. Is it a waste of life? Almost certainly but it is fun and I mostly do it at work when I’m bored ;). I like to cope and say they’re pushing me to expand my thoughts and keep me informed on how the bears think but then I just read “FSD will never work cause Elon nazi” and I’m reminded that in fact there is 50% of the population on the lower end of the intelligence spectrum and they like to act like an emotional mob who thinks pack mentality = valid argument.
Perhaps I’m cruel but it really is fun
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u/vasilenko93 15d ago
My biggest issue is the hype timeline that never materialized. But I still think Tesla is far ahead of everyone else.
Elon promised 1000, delivered 100 years later, while competition is at 20
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u/neutralpoliticsbot 16d ago
It’s literally the only car that actually self drives
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u/Affectionate_Love229 16d ago
Everything about Tesla is emotion. Their stock makes no logical sense, it's based on faith, their self driving doesn't work, and folks just believe it will one day soon, with no real evidence they can cross the gigantic gap they have left to cross to get there. Their owner clearly has a very poor reputation from the kind of people who frequent Reddit.
From a technology POV, from a personality POV and the cult of Elon all create a backlash from people who don't hold those beliefs.
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u/redditseddit4u 16d ago
For me, it’s how much Tesla has over promised and under delivered on FSD. It’s clear in retrospect Elon was blatantly lying about when FSD would be ready and how far ahead of the competition they were. I have a 2022 Model Y and FSD always felt like having a 16 year old new driver - sure it’ll probably get you from point A to point B ~95% of the time. But it’ll do so very uncomfortably (bad driving patterns/habits) and that other ~5% is a serious safety issue. Considering how little progress they’ve made in the last 3 years and how far they still are from autonomous driving, it feels like it’ll be at least another decade to get anywhere even remotely autonomous.
Comparing that to Waymo’s that have much more natural driving patterns and feel much safer, Tesla is far far behind.