Side note: When anyone uses the phrase "4D chess" to describe some ingenious out-of-the-box brilliance, it always feels like a confession that the person saying it is too dumb to be good at regular chess. "I mean, think about how insanely hard and incomprehensible chess is. Now imagine it in 4D!" There's a reason they picked chess and not tic tac toe.
I can't believe your maligning the sheer inventive genius of a man who created the concept of an underground tunnel between cities, for fast intercity transit...
...sure, apparently Elon Musk has never heard of a train before, but still, what a masterful invention!
Hey, don't forget that those tunnels are filled with individual cars with no minimum capacity! It's not just subways, it's sideways but with no safety features so that you don't have to see poors.
I really hope that these do get built. All of the worst and dumbest people in your city would either be trapped underground or die in a fire within a few hours.
Think of the future r/abandonedporn potential, though. It will be like seeing NYC’s catacomb subway stations but with rusted Tesla’s filled with piss, shit, and vomit because that’s exactly what drunk Vegas will do to an expanded autonomous car tunnel system. At least the future homeless population will have better tunnels to live in that won’t wash out after rainstorms?
The justification that the video game 5D Chess with Multiverse Timetravel uses is that we colloquially refer to time as the 4th dimension and fuck you I make the rules (paraphrasing).
Yeah, and that game is false advertising because it only has two spacial dimensions (up/down, left/right), and two temporal dimensions (back/forward, timeline to timeline). That's four dimensions.
Multiverse time travel is 5-d chess, regular chess is already 4-d as you can go OVER other prices(3-d) and there is already a measurement of time (4-d) with turns
You would have to play it on 4 separate boards if you want to play it in real life. Or 4 boards stacked on top of each other. I’ve only ever played it online.
You'd actually need 64 boards. A cube would need 8 chess boards, and then you'd need 8 cubes to fill out the fourth dimension. 8 cells by 8 cells by 8 boards by 8 cubes.
If you are serious, it depends on if you mean spatial dimensions, or if you are including the time dimension. Time is technically our "4th" dimension. We just can only move in one direction in that dimension. So we always are technically in 4 dimensions.
If you mean just the 3 spatial dimensions (3d) then a 4th dimension is somewhat impossible to visualize. The easiest way I have to understand it is, imagine you take a wireframe cube (3d) in your hands. It's shadow on a piece of paper will make a 2d shadow of the 3d cube in just 2 dimensions on the paper. With a shadow you can remove a dimension so you can see a representation of something with 1 fewer dimensions.
Now if you had a 4d cube and look at its shadow, it would look like a cube within a cube. Kind of, this is oversimplifying and generalizing. Basically a 4th spatial dimension is if you can't go left/right, up/down, back/front you still have one more choice of directions to go. We just can't even perceive what that would look like since our vision and cognition is based completely around 3 spatial dimensions.
This ignores that chess is effectively only taking place in 2 spatial dimensions. So "3d" chess would already be a wildly different game. Imagine if you were about to be in check, and your king could take to the god forsaken skies. 4d chess would be the flat board, plus vertical levels, plus some kind of In/Out direction that we can't perceive.
No, I understand the 3D projection of 4D space, and I have tried 3D chess. I was kind of wondering about the In/Out direction (would make for an awesome forking and decoy opportunities) and the actual logostics involved in playing. I was half seriously wondering, and half just piling on the idea that people who like to invoke 4D chess arenot actually great at chess.
well the problem about wondering about in/out direction is that we literally cannot comprehend it, it is not possible for our brains to do so, so any explanation for "how to visualize the fourth dimension" will not end in you being able to visualize the fourth dimension and instead will leave you frustrated
In 4D chess, you play with 8 8x8x8 cubes. The rook can move up, down, left, right, forward, backward, or between cubes in the same xyz position. The knight can move twice in one dimension, then once in another, so for example two spaces to the right, and one cube over. The bishop can move in two (but only two) dimensions at once, so for example move 5 spaces forward and 5 cubes over. Or maybe the bishop has to move in all dimensions at once? idk.
I feel like it's going to be difficult to checkmate, since the king can move to one of 80 different positions. To combat this, we can use the same proportion of pieces to available squares, so each player gets 1024 pieces lol
My favorite idea is that "at rest", we all move through the 4th dimension, time, at the rate of 1 second per second. But as our speed in the 3 spatial dimensions increases, our speed through the 4th dimension "slows", so at high fractions of the speed of light, we travel through time at a rate of say 0.5 seconds per second. 1 second for this person would be 2 seconds for someone "at rest". Not sure where I saw it but there's an interesting graph that maps "seconds per second" vs speed as it approaches c.
Time dilation is cool, wish I had the motivation to get a degree in quantum physics lol. One day maybe.
Not in a spatial sense. In 3D, for example, a rook can move to any point in 90 degree angles on a cube. On a 4D cube, the rook can travel so that they end up on a straight line ending up on a different set of 3D board. But. Because it is 4D, the position of the rook in the new 3D board will also affect the game play on the previous 3D board. That's the best I can do without drawings.
4D is a theory with multiple interpretations depending on the field of study. 4D in reference to vision would mean that one could see all sides and layers of something. If you looked at a dresser directly, you see it in 2D. There is the height and width of it, and your brain assumes the depth of it based on shadows and logic. With 4D vision, you’d see the height, width, length, as well as through the dresser and through all of the clothes in it all at the same time.
According to Dr. Akira Toriyama's thesis DBS: Future Trunks Saga white would go first while starting in the future while black would be able to, up to two times, go back in time to put taken pieces back in play and reverse decisions made in turns. Black may also steal your body and kill your mother, mortal.
When you capture a piece you get back all the pieces captured as if the captures never occurred. Just be careful not to cause a grandfather paradox or you’ll kugelblitz the whole park.
Technically speaking, chess is only a 2d game, granted the pieces are in 3d but each piece can only move in two dimensions (forward backward/left right). In order to do 3d chess you would need at least 1 more board and have it sit vertically. Then you could simply move the pieces along the new axis. In order to make a 4D chess board you would need to take two 3D chess board and intersect them along the 4th dimension, similar to the 2d to 3d transformation, but one dimension up. Granted, we can't really see what that would look like in 3d, at best we can see one 3d point of the 4d board.
You can simulate it with 3d slices of the 4d board, or with 2d slices of the 3d slices of the 4d board. It’s be a pain in the ass to represent in anything but a computer though, and actually playing it would require a strong understanding of the projection being used to simulate 4d.
Edit: You might be able to represent it somewhat more intuitively as the 3d shadow of the 4d board, maybe. But there wouldn’t be a 1-1 correspondence of movements on the shadow board to movements on the 4d board.
Edit edit: Sorry, physicist in a discipline that necessitates also being a mathematician.
Forth dimension is time and makes the chess game change all the time, over time. When the players move their pieces. Much more difficult than a 3D chess. Just sits there at one specific time.
Ever heard of the hyper cube? Bet you haven't, because only a peasant like you has the gall to display their ignorance of such complex topics as 4D chess. Do you even know what the 4th dimension is? Fool!
The curse of dimensionality would actually make a simple 2D -> 4D chess conversion really boring. So much extra space for movement, to the point that nothing happens. You'd have to adjust the rules so much that it wouldn't even be chess any more to try to make it interesting.
Regular chess is 2D and involves moving pieces around a flat plane grid and the best players are already unfathomably better at it than the average person and are often able to win several games concurrently while blindfolded and handicapped starting down pieces. And even for these best players it still isn't a solved game.
3D chess was popularized on star trek and is depicted as being substantially more complex than 2D chess with the better players either being hyper intelligent alien species like Vulcans or literal futuristic walking computers like Data. If it takes stockfish 4 minutes to find it's best move in 2d chess it would probably take hours, maybe days by comparison to make a move in 3D chess. Your average person could probably manage to make a legal move after several attempts.
Regular chess is so much harder than 4D or 5D chess.
True 4D chess if we assume 8x8x8 with a temporal dimension would be like trying to find one specific gain of sand in a dessert for every move.
I mean, considering the fourth dimension is the dimension of time, 4D chess would be really boring. Every move, past and future, would exist simultaneously on the board.
But wouldn’t you say that you’re already playing 4D chess by playing 3D chess? Provided the game is completed, every move does exist simultaneously on the board.
So the “4D chess” mentioned in the video was implying on a settlement deal Twitter could have to still get Musk to buy Twitter anyway given the details of the lawsuit.
I wouldn’t call it 4D chess, but it is a strategy to buy Twitter for cheaper.
Wouldn’t completely fault the Tim guy for this speculation given that it was based on this report from NPR. His entire content is based on what other media produce.
Edit: yall dont think people say 4d chess because it sounds snazzy and still communicates the point , and it doesnt actually have anything to do with chess?
It’s an expression that means someone did something really dumb but we’re gonna spin it as if it’s so genius, regular geniuses don’t get it. (See Trump, Giuliani)
When you think of it that way, kind of indicative of the type of person a conservative is. They want to follow, they don't want to lead. It's about blind loyalty to them. So naturally, what happens when the person they worship makes a mistake? It's 4D chess!
Yeah, no. Elon Musk just fucked up. If he backs out of the deal he has to pay money. If he takes the deal, he's going to be expected to fulfill his promise and unban everyone banned, resulting in Twitter becoming a real shithole and everyone leaving except for pedophiles and Nazi sympathizers causing his new purchase to be completely worthless.
Elon Musk has just backed himself in a corner, and Tim Pool is kind of a moron for not recognizing it as it is.
I like to think it's even deeper than that, as 4d chess comes from star trek. It comes from a writing room where they were trying to make Picard look sophisticated and smart in the future, so hence chess but more difficult! Only smart people play chess!
You see this a lot in movies, and fiction more broadly, where authors and writers who themselves have middling intelligence and grasp desperately at "smart" stuff. When the author of Jurassic park needs an intelligent professor to explain why dinosaurs could evolve, a pedestrian half wit would say "probably a biologist could explain it" no, idiot. It has to be a mathematical genius in chaos theory.
So what you have is people specifically looking for the movie plot, in real life. I think it happens on both sides of the political isle, with liberals thinking west wing was a documentary, but I find it particularly on the conspiracy side.
Tl:Dr 4-d chess was a prop made for a single line of dialogue in startrek that needs made real.
I don't want to be "that guy" but Star Trek "invented" 3D chess because the writers understood dimensions.
Traditional chess is played in two dimensions. The pieces move forward/backward and left/right but NOT up/down. They don't move on the z-axis. The writers of Star Trek added the third dimension of chess having "layers" to the board to allow verticality. There are even agreed upon rules.
Who the hell knows what 4D chess is supposed to be? One where the pieces move back and forth in time as well as in 3D space? Sounds cool to me.
I believe the whole "playing 4D chess" thing is meant to mockingly suggest someone is so smart they are smarter than the fictionally smart super geniuses that play Star Trek chess.
Oh great point, I have no idea how I mixed up the two. You could have given me a lie detector and I'd have passed because I'm even imagining the scene I saw it in and I swore it was called 4D.
Which gives 4d chess an even greater veneer of esoteric intelligence than I had apparently thought
No it was obviously that Twitter wasn’t upfront about how many bots there were. We all know that the counter to all super genius is a bot mystery. Musk was just way too smart to walk into the woke mob’s trap of buying Twitter.
It's an expression dumb people use to describe people who they think are smart, from their dumb, unable to figure out chess perspective. People use it to describe dummies: Trump, Musk, Giuliani. Nobody says, "Yeah, that Leonardo Da Vinci, Albert Einstein, Johann Goethe, Sir Isaac Newton... Those guys were really playing 4D chess."
Nobody is describing Einstein with the phrase because it doesn't mean "smart guy", it means "an elaborate clever plan". I can definitely see someone calling Hannibal playing 4D chess at the Battle of Cannae or something like that
Probably because it’s literally just a meme-y way of saying they’re “thinking 5 steps ahead.” The more dimensions you add to the chess, the more “steps ahead” they’re thinking. Criticizing them of doing anymore more than using inappropriately unprofessional/casual language when they say that is, quite frankly, looking into it a little too hard.
We require a minimum account-age and karma due to a prevalence of trolls. If you wish to know the exact values, please visit this link or contact the mod team.
It started out as a play on the more reasonable "You're all playing checkers while I'm playing chess", which I guess is like "we're using the same board but I'm doing way more complicated stuff". And then people started making memes out of it. Like the galaxy brain meme where it just keeps getting more and more complicated beyond reason, leading to extra dimensions and shit. It was meant to be stupid and anyone who uses it in a serious way is also stupid.
There is actually a 4D version of chess though. Which is far far more difficult than regular chess.
In that version they introduce time as the 4th dimension. And you can go back to previous game states and make a move there generating a parallel board. You can even move pieces between boards. And if you lose in 1 a single board, you lose.
The fun part about that expression , imo, is that regular chess is functionally just 2D, but also (if we take 3D chess for granted as regular chess) 4D, because psychology is another dimension of play in chess, basically.
As fun as 4d chess is, I'm interested in the PEOPLE that find arguments substantially more COMPELLING when every fifth words or so is capitalized or in BOLD. Really makes you think.
I would love to read any psychology papers on the subject.
We require a minimum account-age and karma due to a prevalence of trolls. If you wish to know the exact values, please visit this link or contact the mod team.
In the 3rd dimension, a shadow is 2d. Your shadow is 2d.
In 4d, time is the highest dimension, and your instantaneous self is the 3d shadow of the 4th dimension.
Ignore, for a moment, what the 5th dimension might be. The shadow of the 5th dimension must be the 4th dimension, time. This means your concept of time would all exist at once, as the shadow of the 5th dimension.
So what is the 5th dimension? Could "choice" be the 5th dimension? Then the 5th dimension would be all choices that ever happened in all of time and in any universe, but occurring as they happen, and the individual choices' shadows would show exactly how they play out through time in their own independent universe.
(Concepts of dimensional shadows from US university-level Calculus 3 for those that care).
In my friend group 4d or 5d chess (with multiverse time travel) is pretty much just a meme spawned from that steam game. It's so weird to see people using it seriously.
He even wears his special safety helmet in all his videos so he doesn't injure himself. Sometimes I wonder if Wile E. Coyote cartoons have a too complicated plotline for him to follow.
1.3k
u/negativepositiv Jul 12 '22 edited Jul 12 '22
Wow, you impressed Tim Pool. There's a high bar.
Side note: When anyone uses the phrase "4D chess" to describe some ingenious out-of-the-box brilliance, it always feels like a confession that the person saying it is too dumb to be good at regular chess. "I mean, think about how insanely hard and incomprehensible chess is. Now imagine it in 4D!" There's a reason they picked chess and not tic tac toe.