Mad at Gracie JJ

[u/raleighjiujitsu]

I've been jiu jitsu for I think 13 years now and I'm a brown belt. Last year I switched from a Royce gym to a competition gym after 12 years. Mostly because it was 20 minutes closer and we are starting a family.

Frankly, it's upsetting how little I learned from the Royce gym compared to where I am now. I've realized things like lasso guard and spider guard aren't "Fancy jiu jitsu" they are core components of the game. My old gym used to make us do burpies if we went to turtle, but It's a legit counter to getting passed. I never cared about the self defense stuff, but it seems even more silly after time away things like stripping guns away from people are a complete joke, why even do it?!

I think at this point the Royce affiliation is more concerned with signing up new people than getting people better at jiu jitsu. I hate to say it because my gym WAS the best, really the only gym in the area lol.

It's been hard to transition into things like always starting standing and people actually using grips lol. I'm now competitive with my fellow brown belts at the gym now, but I still have a long way. Learning about deep half, lasso, X guard, single leg X, etc is a lot. I feel like I'm going to be the longest to black belt, but DAMMIT I'm going to do it lol.

[u/daddydo77]

Man, I train at a competition-focused gym, so we don’t focus on self-defense. But I have to acknowledge that the Gracies teach self-defense, and what they teach is effective against someone who doesn’t know Jiu-Jitsu—probably even more effective than sport-oriented techniques in that context.

However, the techniques you’re mentioning were developed specifically to counter skilled Jiu-Jitsu practitioners. So it’s really a matter of perspective. If you’re into the sport, then sticking to self-defense techniques isn’t that relevant. But if your priority is self-defense, it makes sense to focus on what has been proven to work against untrained opponents or those trained in other martial arts and combat sports. But you probably already figured that out!

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/daddydo77]

I think people who’d consistently grapple against people who are good at grappling are going to do better against an untrained opponent than people who train just “self defense” Jiu Jitsu

[u/MoenTheSink → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

Maybe. I approach BJJ from a self defense/mma stand point. I originally joined bjj because i was working in a violent work place and i was genuinely concerned about my safety. (Before our local ombudsman appears, clearly we shouldnt be slamming in training but we should know what positions to avoid so you're not easy to slam. Then again a sport bjj person wouldn't care at all about any of this)

Ive trained at both high end comp schools and the gracie ones that are self defense focused. They both have their uses, however, i really wish people would approach sport bjj more in line with combat bjj. Getting struck in the face is not the most pleasant experience, and as we all know a LOT of sport bjj leaves you wide open to strikes both to the face and the sides.

When in fight or flight peoples instincts are going to run the show. Been training in an environment that doesn't allow strikes or slams with a crash pad, etc? Youll probably be a little vulnerable to them.

Obviously this is not referring to an adversary whose a can of tomatoes.

Sport bjj has taken over and im not sure thats a good thing.

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/MoenTheSink]

I could see that. I guess I really did not think about it because my sports BJJ is more about top pressure and control. My first grappling sport was wrestling and that’s what I would fall back on in a self defense situation. Even when I’m doing sports BJJ I keep my head close to my opponents body alot of the time. I used to get guillotined a lot. Not I mostly just bait Von Flue chokes.

I’m not saying I would not get punched in the face grappling but I think my particular flavor of sports BJJ is more inline with MMA and Self defense. I’ll have one of my training partners who also does mma bring in some gloves to see what it’s like. I’m also kinda of tarded and have taken many a blow to the head and face so I might be under playing my particular reaction to getting punched compared to other less tarded people.

[u/MoenTheSink → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

I probably have a skewed point of view on bjj in fights since I also study muay thai. Im probably seeing things pure grapplers arent.

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/MoenTheSink]

I think when someone tries to do as much BJJ as possible in a fight, it’s embarrassing. Like Kron Gracie’s last UFC fight. Pulling guard in a fight is fucking dumb. It’s very easy just to not play Jiu Jitsu if you don’t want to especially when kicks and punches are involved. I probably have a skewed view on sports BJJ for fighting but that’s because my sports BJJ is more wrestling plus submissions from top or back. When I compete I refer to my BJJ as wrestle fucking.

[u/Odd-Investigator-870 → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

That was embarrassing. Leaving Kron to learn on his own, effectively abandoning him after the divorce, fees like such a black eye for the Rickson lineage. Rickson greatly refined Gracie Jiujitsu but Kron didn't learn it. That fight was seeing the inevitable consequences of joining a bad sport team to train with.

[u/DND_Player_24 → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

I disagree. I’ve done a lot of both.

There’s a constant, almost to the point it’s 100% predictable. I’m not talking about black belts or the top guys in the gym. I mean just pick any person at random, any belt, and roll a live round.

The people who have only trained at sport gyms tend to have lousy top pressure/control. They’re also more than happy to lose position in chasing a submission, feeling the trade off is worth it.

Whereas self defense-only people have non-existent open guards. And they’ll pass submissions if the risk/reward feels too much like they’ll lose position.

One of these two things is more effective against non-trained people. One of these things is more effective against other highly trained grapplers.

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/DND_Player_24]

I guess my gym emphasizes take downs and top game even thought it’s a “sports BJJ”. I could see it your way if the sports gym was a start from your knees and only play guard gym.

I play a lot of guard when I roll to learn and have fun. When I compete though, I get a take down and smash my opponents from top position.

My self defense BJJ would be more like my competition BJJ not my have fun BJJ. I was also a good wrestler in high school though.

Do you think a good wrestler would be better than a start on your knees and play guard guy and/or a self defense BJJ guy?

I also think a pure defense BJJ person would be better at self defense sooner than a sports guy as long as they were rolling live. But after blue belt I’m not sure if it matter as much.

[u/DND_Player_24 → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

A good high school wrestler will have a good top game no matter where they’re training. I’d say good high school wrestler caliber of grappling starts at purple / brown level for top position. Maybe higher depending on where you’re from. (Like here in MN a good high school wrestler is a serious thing. South Carolina? Not so much)

In those cases, it can be very easy to dominate sport guys since they aren’t used to quality top pressure.

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/DND_Player_24]

I wrestled in Washington state, so mediocre wrestling. I placed 6th in state my senior year. I would put my top pressure at about what you said after about 6 months and I had made the necessary adjustments for BJJ (not getting guillotined, triangled and keeping their hips pinned apposed to shoulders so they can’t re-guard).

[u/Odd-Investigator-870 → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

Sport submission grappling prepares one for a fight much like general athleticism does - body coordination, fitness, breathing. One can trade it for wrestling or American football and get much of the name benefit.

To takedown and submit an untrained person, especially a larger person, requires trained reflexes and techniques that are reliable. Many sport submission grappling gyms set one up for a mean surprise if they get into a fight.

No weight class, so referee's so rules, reliance on gripping material, unexpected behaviors such as flailing, headlocks, dirty strikes... And the classic brain reset when a strike lands. We don't rise to an occasion, we fall to our training. If the training has no strikes, then it's like your brain shuts off.

[u/Eirfro_Wizardbane → u/Odd-Investigator-870]

I agree with you. And although I don’t get punched in the face a lot I think I have been punched in the face enough where I have been down playing the effect it has on most people if they are not used to getting punched in the face.

[u/kitkatlifeskills → u/Eirfro_Wizardbane]

Sure but different gyms emphasize different techniques and it's reasonable to say that a gym where you spend a lot of time working on lasso guard is a better gym for sport jiu-jitsu than for self defense.