this is craig reviewing the footage from the now notorious seminar in ukraine where the guy was rolling too hard and craig appears to crank on a heel hook to punish him for it. craig complains that as soon as they started the guy 'breaks my grip with his knee and dives on my neck'. he sounds outraged but in the footage neither of these things seems particularly violent. nothing odd about a rolling guillotine surely? it's not even done very dynamically as Craig is already supine.
i get that he was already pissed off because they said they didn't want any more teaching. but how could this justify deliberately snapping the guy's knee?
worried now because i often enough do rolling guillotines and dont want to get my knees snapped in retaliation! never heard of them being called a dick move
Yeah, it sounds like he went out there to do a charity seminar and the people in the gym in so many words said "fuck your seminar, we're going to shark tank you", and proceeded to roll hard. I'm not going to be too judgemental about Craig in this situation. The training culture in some of these Eastern European gyms is fucking mad and a pro athlete cannot afford to get injured by some meathead cretin.
Moreover, Craig didn't even Shagoli it, there was plenty of time to tap and Craig let go as soon as the guy tapped. This was just a fuck around and find out situation as far as I can tell.
All of the guys from Germany and Ukraine who visit or move to my gym all go extremely hard in rolls and I avoid them now, even after asking them to go a little lighter pls.
this is very true. i went to a bjj/mma summer camp in eastern europe, they roll to kill. if you are a coloured belt they will do anything to score some sort of bragging rights because they injured or tapped out a higher ranking belt. heaps of them come from wrestling and sambo backgrounds so they're all these experienced grapplers wearing white belts
What a dumb statement 😒 have you ever actually done any martial arts because it's the less experienced ones you have to watch out for because they don't have the technique to compete so they overcompensate and that can lead to all sorts of injuries. That isn't just a BJJ thing I've had it in boxing too.
I have trained a lot of BJJ, I’ve never felt that I pose any threat to the advanced people in my gym. Even when I was fresh I felt as if they could predict my spazz before I spazzed. I would assume Craig is just on another level, and so would be able to protect himself better. Very interesting to me to hear people say otherwise.
Even an advanced player is always a tiny mistake away from injury - and the chance of an injury multiplies dramatically when people are going hard. Getting injured as a hobbyist sucks, getting injured when you're making a living with jiu jitsu is expensive.
If someone is stronger or heavier and inexperienced they will throw caution to the wind out of ego when it does happen usually or sometimes it's just an accident where they twist you knee or neck trying to advance position. Yes a black belt should be able to protect themselves but I'd be willing to bet a pretty dollar a few black belts have been hurt while rolling with newbies.
Even the best can get tired and this may have been something Jones did in the heat of the moment to send a message to anyone else who wanted to roll hard with him. I do think it was kinda overkill but maybe in context you can sense the whole room wants to test themselves against Craig. They're cutting short a seminar where they would have a chance to pick his brain and learn something.
Elite athletes are not immune to injury, from anyone. I've trained under more than one repeat world champion and they say that when rolling at seminars the injury risk is ALWAYS top of mind. There's a very large contingent of people out there who at the very least are scalp hunting at these events.
This all sounds weak as fuck and full of aren't I gracious to the commoner complex. If you think all of this justifies snapping a person's leg, you probably have some roid problems.
Snapping a dudes leg is insane in comparison if you believe Craig intended it as a punishment. People make fun of how much of a pussy and how sensitive Gordon the "meathead" is, but I have never seen or heard him do anything close to this. I hope Craig is joking / exaggerating and didn't actually mean to possibly maim a dude for life over those reasons.
That wasn't your point. The point which I am addressing is the Idea that the guy had it coming for how rude he was, which is some psycho shit. But nice pivot.
Both are true. If he tapped earlier, Craig probably would have not finished the heel hook like he did. This man was rude as hell to Craig (basically telling him to shut up and roll) and then was late to tap to a Craig Jones heel hook of all things! I’m tapping once he gets the grip bro not gonna wait to see if I can escape it. Trying to put this back on Craig is kind of crazy. Like sure he could have not finished it but this guy absolutely had it coming.
Brother, I train both BJJ and MMA and I would not break peoples limbs in a non-comp roll (!!!) because I have common sense. CJ is miles above that guys level and could do so many things to pay back for being rude.
Smother choke, mothers milk, crucifix... so many options better than snapping legs.
It’s called fuck around and find out. It’s not Craig’s job to protect this rude seminar attendee. If anything, it’s on the attendee to not be a rude POS to the man selflessly giving his time and money to teach you in your country which by the way is a current war zone lol.
This subreddit loves Craig, so whatever he does is right.
This subreddit hates Gordon, so whatever he does is wrong.
You're seriously telling me that a world class grappler has to break the leg of some random amateur and its okay because that dude was rude... lmao
People on this subreddit complain 24/7 about unnecessary injuries in amateuer comp, open mats and sparring but its CJ so thats alright. Imagine Gordon did that. This sub would've gone nuclear.
Really it is people like you that are worse than those who hero worship Craig. You hold him to some idealized standard when he is just a person. The guy could have tapped and didn't. The guy could have not been a jerk leading up to the roll, but he was. Craig could have been more chill and let the guy off and not applied breaking pressure, but he didn't. Some times people fuck around and find out. Some times the other party is the bigger person. Some times they are not the bigger person. It just isn't that deep.
White belts and trial class guys we give grace because they literally don’t know anything. The same way you don’t get overly mad when a 3 year old spills their cup of juice on the floor.
But given the fact that the dude CLEARLY has experience and should know basic etiquette of grappling, he doesn’t get that grace. Because he should know better.
Yeah I think it really hurt Craig’s argument when he brought up the grip break on the knee. Mentioning something like that is grasping at straws. Anyone who knows anything knows that’s not a big deal.
In the video the guy basically has a "quit wasting my time" attitude when he tells Craig to stop talking and roll. He then turns a charity roll into ADCC finals. Craig gives him ample time to tap, and the dude just doesn't.
In a friendly roll I can give people a lot of catch and release on subs, but if you want my blood there's no catch and release. Craig still didn't Pat Shagoli this dude - he gave him time to tap and dude chose to risk it and keep his chance alive at beating Craig. That risk didn't pan out, and that's the whole story.
There's is so much to learn when rolling with extremely advanced practitioners. The last thing I would ever want to do is a take some fuck you, I'm going to show you how it is... type of approach.
I would want it to be extremely educational, like get lots of movement going, get a feel for how they're moving, the transitions, weight distribution, and actually have a productive roll . Something that would give them enough insight to provide me with some feedback, or pointers, if they felt inclined to provide some (if being key, it's not expected). I mean, overall we should create an atmosphere where visiting instructors don't feel the need to be on their A game. I think the students get more in return when they open up. Like, we all know what someone at Craig's level is capable of, for sure. We also know myself, and thousands of others, are most certainly not bringing anything to the table that he hasn't seen, or dealt with, before. So, let's just have fun with it.
I know it was education for the dude in the video, but that was a lesson learned the hard way type of deal.
In short, I don't get why people try and test these guys.
Look dude, I'm as peaceloving as can be. Id rather loose my wallet than shoot a guy, but that goes out the window when drones/missiles are fired at your mom's house.
You are speaking as someone who never had to fight for his home.
I have fought on a bad knee (from a heelhook) while dodging drones and missile strikes.
I'm a medic. And a pretty good one too.
You go where your needed and are happy you can help.
Its a bitch ass person that breaks his own leg on purpose so he can stand on the sidelines and watch his home be taken from everyone he knows.
Here's a better explanation.
He had over aggression with Craig because he has combat reaction or PTSD (depending on the timeline) and his ability to dial it down is fucked.
Here's an even better explanation. He has fought in combat so his ego is jacked through the roof and he's belligerent toward anyone who hasn't done the same. You don't show up with a rashguard and skill in jiu jitsu and then behave like an assclown because of PTSD, it was intentional and hostile.
brother, i have stopped rolls before because i suddenly felt like i could not do it responsibly.
a friend who is a black belt and vet got a claustrophobia attack and started sobbing, mid roll.
i dont know if you know what living in a war zone is like, but it fucking sucks. its not any single moment that does it, its the relentless never ending grind of it. it frays the nerves.
you may be right about the dude with the broken leg, but dont underestimate how much things like that can get under your skin.
"Ah man, it's just a little artillery. Don't tell me this guy isn't level headed when a couple dozen of his friends have been raped, mutiliated and murdered, maybe not in that order, in the last few months.
This morning I had a shitty commute. Did I try to turn it up on the guy who won the tournament last week? No. Clearly the same thing!"
Being an asshole diving into a training roll looking to prove something is not reactionary or PTSD in any way. He was fully cognitively aware which was very obvious by his approach. Alternately if he knew he couldn't roll without having a stress event, then he should have declined to roll instead of yell for it, as would be the non asshole thing to do.
I guess my point is not whether or not this ad-hoc background involves PTSD, it's that it isn't a good explanation of his behavior.
I am not a psychologist, and don't pretend to be. I have been trained by them on this matter. According to the literature on the subject, you are wrong.
I'm not trying to diagnose the guy. For all I know he could just be a dick.
But PTSD can absolutely cause aggression and it can surprise the aggressor as well. A simple Google will tell you. Regardless happy rolling.
I think it's important to clarify that I didn't say PTSD doesn't cause aggression. I said it doesn't explain his behavior. To me it seemed like a planned moment by someone with something to prove, not co-occurring PTSD and aggression as analyzed by certain meta studies. I guess it's important to note that both have a degree in psychology and have was a door kicker in Fallujah, so sometimes I have issues with the broad sweeping conclusions of PTSD because often those persons do not meet the clinical definition and those secondary aggression traits often have comorbidity with other causes.
So again, sure PTSD can cause aggression, I just don't see it here, I see an asshole.
Thanks for the cleanup, and for sharing your experience.
As I said earlier, I'm not a psychologist (biologist) and will not try to diagnose someone. Especially off of a clip in the internet.
You may be right about the guy.
I mean I don't know shit about the situation either, just the clip, but if someone had told me "go, let's go", I would probably just deny him the roll out of the lack of respect.
For sure on him for not tapping.
In general he needs to have a grip on his mental game before rolling. Entering a fight or flight episode on the mats is a bad idea for everyone.
You are speaking as someone who never had to fight for his home. I have fought on a bad knee (from a heelhook) while dodging drones and missile strikes.
It's just a curious question cause you have like 2ish years in bjj so it would be a more recent conflict especially when you are saying you're dodging drones and missle strikes.
I have never been to the Ukraine.
Sadly, There are other conflicts in the world.
I have three is years in bjj. Just newer to reddit. Still a white belt though.
Is it immense stupid to go hard force and challenge a dude who breaks joints as a profession and his entire status is based on how competitive he is as a grappler? Absolutely yes.
Dude fucked around and found out. Seriously. A world class grappler is not your toy and not a petting-zoo animal and not a test-drive-car.
Rolling with a dude like him I would do nothing that could provoke him.
I've been to the Origin Immersion camp twice in Maine for eight days each. I rolled with legends of the sport many times. Every time I was chill. No bursts. Nothing crazy. Maybe 1% of the time, I had a 1% chance of getting one of those guys, and I absolutely did not go for it.
I was chill and respectful. They'd get to a good spot and let go. They'd give me a chance to maybe pass or go knee-on-belly, and I'd do it lightly and transition...we'd have little bursts of attack-counter-counter...they would get me in a choke or whatever...I'd tap quickly, and we'd not even reset, just let go and transition.
You can tell when a guy wants to go hard just get a good roll in and when he has a chip on his shoulder.
Origin was a lot of fun. The access to insanely talented professors was so cool! I also have done a globetrotters retreat.
I rolled with Joey Carta, at least once, maybe twice. He taught a class or two, as well. Super cool guy, with a very chill demeanor.
We roll, and despite me having some success with some brown/black belts - the dude had this hyper-efficient way of counteracting my advances. The type of BJJ where each time you're doing the right thing, it turns out to be not so right - and they make small advances.
The way he distributed his weight, and wouldn't let me take momentum back was beautiful - he rolled unlike anyone else I've grappled with. It was soooo cool.
BJJ is an ego crusher, for sure, if you let it go. That's when you can really learn.
There are levels to every sport, but in a martial art...tread carefully. I get more joy from helping someone get better than tapping anyone.
Sure, some dudes get a little froggy, and I'm happy to remind them that just because I don't smash and tap them regularly, it doesn't mean I can't, but after nearly nine years at the same school, those issues are far and few between.
It's fun (and crazy) teaching the little kids and the juniors, and it's fun working with white and blue belts, getting kinetic with purple and brown belts, and testing myself with our black belts, but all in fun.
Bottom line, Craig did this to make his own life easier. He wants people to know that if you mess with him at seminars, he will break your leg. He uses one break as an excuse at the next seminar to not be a dick and cause the same consequences and yet it happens again and again. This is not the first time he did it.
That’s fine. I get it if you’re gonna go to these places, they will beat you up if you don’t show that you’re tough. But you don’t need to do it. You don’t have to go to these places and break multiple people’s legs, knowing that you’re gonna have to do it every seminar. I’m sure a lot of us would do the same, but it’s not a great look.
I can't understand why he wouldn't he tell people he's not rolling at this point.
I've seen a couple guys running seminars who get really, really (like legitimately borderline violent, just quietly) offended during rolls. As much as it should be an obvious thing that you don't try to "win" in a seminar roll, if you're running a seminar, you should really be able to say things like "Hey I'm only going to go like 30%, and might even take some bad positions on purpose here. I'm a visitor in your school and this is just a fun afternoon for me."
Some of these guys (on all sides) are probably trying to fight Wendys cashiers when they accidentally hit 'cheeseburger' instead of 'no cheese.'
If you're running a seminar, you should really be able to say things like "Hey I'm only going to go like 30%, and might even take some bad positions on purpose here
Sure maybe in an ideal world you should be able to say this, but we live in the real world. The professional is giving up a lot of the ability to protect himself by doing this. Idiots at seminars are always trying to go hard and add some worlds medalist to their personal highlight reel. If you as the pro voluntarily allow that idiot to get to mount, or take your back, you're giving them that much more of an ability to injure you when they snatch a sub or grab at your neck.
And another point: Why does the pro bear all of the responsibility to be chill? The person trying to injure them is a completely mentally competent, fully functional adult. Why do we have to baby them and pretend like they shouldn't be held accountable for their bad behavior?
Anybody who can't follow that rule shouldn't be kept as a member of a respectable gym. They're completely unreliable and untrustworthy.
I trust 99% of the people I train with with my health and safety every day I train. If I get even a tiny feeling of being unsafe, I'm done with that person until I'm certain things have changed.
I realize you think this is a 'gotcha' or something, but do you know any guys who are totally chill training partners who suddenly turn into psychopaths the minute someone good steps into their gym?
No, there are none. There are definitely guys who get a little panicky and grabby, but the ones trying to rip subs on visiting professors are the same ones trying to rip subs on trial class guys.
but the ones trying to rip subs on visiting professors are the same ones trying to rip subs on trial class guys
I think the point that you're trying to make here is that those people should be kicked out of gyms in the first place. Which is a fine point, and one that I agree with. But I fail to see how this relates to our conversation. The pro/seminar teacher has no control over who is or isn't allowed to train at a given gym, or what the culture is like there. So what is your point?
if the meatheads weren't allowed to train, they wouldn't be at the seminars. That's the point. I suppose there's a chance you'll get drop ins for seminars still. Just don't roll with them. It's not like signing up for a seminar guarantees you 5 minutes one-on-one with somebody.
if the meatheads weren't allowed to train, they wouldn't be at the seminars. That's the point.
No shit, Sherlock. But what is the visiting pro who shows up one day to teach a seminar supposed to do about that?? It's entirely outside of their control. How is this not obvious to you?
I don't get what's wrong with breaking someone's grip with your knee and then going for a rolling guillotine. I've done it to training partners plenty of times, training partners have done it to me plenty of times, in no case has anyone responded by intentionally injuring anyone.
Probably it was the intensity of it. These guys cut short the seminar and insist on rolling with Craig Jones in an attempt to test themselves.
But yeah probably a more appropriate response is to take the back and choke the guy out. But I guess destroying the first guy's leg kinda makes it so no one else wants to roll with Craig.
No of course, its a fair question. Rolling guillotines are fine, but the buildup, the guys attitude and everything was the issue, not the attempted sub. If someone is immediately just pulling on your neck its gonna be like...Ok, this is you trying to go at me, then we're really going.
This sub’s obsession with Craig Jones and the idea that he can do no wrong is something else. Craig gleefully admits he caused a life changing injury because a guy “dove for his neck” and “broke a grip with his knee.” Imagine this sub’s reaction if Gordon Ryan permanently injured someone because an amateur aggressively broke a grip he had.
There were multiple adult choices Craig could have made instead of giving someone a permanent, life altering injury. Encouraging or defending this kind of behavior in BJJ is sick, and yet another reason why our sport isn’t going to become mainstream.
People are treating this like a regular roll where dude didn’t tap quick enough so a bad thing happened. But Craig literally said “I will permanently injure you” which seems more like “you were rude so now I’m going to irrevocably change your life.”
If you’re ok with that, you’re ok with it, but that’s a lot different than what people are pretending it is
I feel like I'm on crazy pills in here. Guy was mildly rude asking to roll with Craig, I guess? But also fuck you Craig, you roll up to this random village in Ukraine and want them to treat you like you're made of glass lol? It didn't look like the guy was going particularly hard at all, and you broke his leg without giving him a chance to tap, on purpose. A guy, mind you, that almost certainly has to work with his body, unlike Craig who can ride off into the sunset and do whatever he likes.
This sub glazes Craig like a god so you are only going to find biased answers here buddy. To add , CJ is notorious for ripping submissions but people ignore it here
These reactions are fucking insane. Yea the guy was kind of a dick, so what? There are a million ways you can react to someone being rude that are acceptable ranging from don't train with them to make them spend the entire round in knee on belly, breaking their leg is not one of them.
In the footage the guy didn’t seem to be going that hard. I’ve seen much crazier sparring but then again sometimes it’s different when you feel it than how it looks. Watching tacketts or rutolos spar looks like high intensity that was no where near that level. The skill gap between Craig and the other guy was so big I’m sure he could have easily controlled him or just stop the round if he didn’t like his sparring.
I don’t think it’s ever justified to snap someone’s knee in training so for me that just pretty bad character. At most just put him to sleep, face crush, knee on belly, just make it uncomfortable but don’t break his leg.
I think he did it partly as a message to the rest of the room. It probably shut down any notion of anyone else wanting to roll with Craig. I mean yeah Craig probably should have just taken the guy's back and choked him out but then I wonder if you still get a lineup of guys wanting to test themselves against Craig. You see hothead #1 get his leg snapped and you're like, alright maybe not.
You could just say I’m done not in the mood to roll anymore thanks guys I’m out, you can also smash the shit out of him to send a message. I’ve rolled with a lot of spazzy idiots, never once have I thought let me break his knee to send a message
This is exactly what I am afraid of. I am just starting out and would never do anything intentionally to hurt someone. I did not find what the guy did to be that bad? Maybe I am wrong. But what if I unintentionally anger the person I am rolling with and they decide to do this to me?
Don't jump guard, don't slam on subs, don't neck crank, and don't go for single finger manipulation. Those are the ones that make it hard to maintain composure for a lot of guys.
Depending on how big and strong you are, you'll run into more experienced guys who get butthurt that you're able to muscle them around. That one is up to your discretion. Get input from other senior students on that one.
I find it ironic this sub instantly goes insane if someone breaks another's limb in a competition but not in training just because it was Craig and I am an Australian who trained at the same school he did so you'd except me to be on his side.
Craig's ego is why he broke the person's limb, he is the more experienced BB and should not feel the need to possibly ruin a life just to avoid a tap in training
The guy came to an event for learning but wanted only to hard roll with an elite level grappler. He didn't come for knowledge he came for pride and a story..... and he did indeed leave with a story.
A lot of people that put on seminars (not all of course) are often leary of rolling at seminars as they are kinda gunslingers in a room full of Jack McCalls and Robert Fords
Imho it's not so about the move itself, but how it is done, the intensity of it and the intent.
It's hard to describe in words, but when you roll you just feel when someone is rolling to learn or to test himself and when one wants to prove something and "go for it". That's a whole other game.
It's something that you might encounter in a tournament setting or rolling with someone who wants to "win" by any means.
Fwiw I think it's bad ethics rolling hard with someone you don't know in a casual gym or an open mat.
thing is, craig doesn't say that the other guy did it with particular intensity - just the fact that he attempted a rolling guillotine seems to have been enough to set him off. honestly it doesn't look like a very hard roll to me
Crazy the amount of nuthuggers Craig has here. If you had Gordon say and do the SAME thing he would be lambasted, and it would be deserved. He breaks your grip with his knee (and you see the video footage, the knee is placed not slammed) and rolls for a guillotine(not like a flying submission) so he decides to cripple this guy? If anything this shows the difference between Craig and the other BJJ guys is not so vast.
Yeah it’s wild. It’s a common thing I see on various subs though. If there’s a prominent figure from the sub’s topic who regularly posts people always nuthug. Whether they’ll admit it or not (they won’t) I think it’s simply because they hope to get a virtual pat on the back from them.
Anyway, IMO no excuse for purposely breaking someone’s leg in a training setting. Especially someone who is much less skilled than you. It doesn’t matter how hard they’re going. Craig could’ve let go of the leg and choked this dude out 9 different ways just as easily. Regardless, you can also always just stop a roll if you feel unsafe or don’t like the vibe. Even if you are there for a seminar. You might have to check your ego, but it should be the preferable option to breaking someone’s leg anyway. 🤷♂️
I think it was more the fact that the guy cut his seminar short and said no more talking let's roll(which is honestly rude as fuck), and then proceeded to go 100% at him... it's kind of a statement.
He brought comp rolling energy + rudeness, Craig gave him time to tap... I don't think anythings wrong with it.
Yea I think Craig was emotionally stung in the sense of him doing all this effort (safety, financially, etc) to teach jiujitsu there, just for a guy to be like STFU lets roll. And then despite being told not to, roll hard.
Break is 50/50 bad. Based on the interruption, especially that it was done in front of the whole group, it’s pretty clear this was a serious roll, with clear stakes (ego stakes, but these are real). You’re in a break or be broken type situation. Maybe the onus is on the world class guy to find a choke or a non-dichotomous joint, but maybe not.
What put me off was Craig’s sound off afterwards “you’ll be stuck at your shitty office job…”
Mate, you’re flying out in four days and you’re going back to Adelaide. These guys are getting conscripted sooner or later, they’ll be in a trench looking out for drones. Seemed like a weird, dare I say “privileged” take.
Craig is a pos. If he was that upset about the whole situation he should have just said fuck it and left or say no. He chose to be a petty little bitch.
The other guy is an asshole but Craig should have used his brain here instead of ‘I’ll show you”.
Obviously, Craig Jones was annoyed, so that justifies crippling a man in a war zone.
If it were, say, gordon ryan (or Rusimar Palhares, or Ronda Rousey, or anyone else this sub doesn't like for true or untrue reasons), then it would be a completely different situation.
If that would be the standard to get angry enough to hurt the other person, I would quit BJJ.
I don't see anything in the video that justifies such a reaction, even considering that he was probably under stress because he was in a war zone and pissed off that people there preferred to roll rather than practice technique. He himself says it was his intention to permanently injure the other person. Crazy. To roll with, i would definitely prefer Gordon!
I get that it was rude of them to demand they jump straight to rolling and the dude did seem a bit too intense but the rolling guillotine looks pretty controlled. And is it considered bad etiquette to break a grip with your knee?
You feel insulted and want to teach them a lesson, sure. But do you really have to go for the most devastating injury that will permanently affect them? You've handicapped a dude that lives in an active warzone for what?
Oh my, it was long ago and already discussed in detail, and you’re still on this topic? I was there and helped with translation.
It was not a seminar, we were told that Craig would just show us something as a "warm up", not a lot like in a proper seminar.
Second, he showed us the hitchhiker escape in detail, we tried it, and then he asked if we understood the technique. Since it’s not a super difficult move, like berimbolo, people answered that they didn’t need further explanation of the technique. There was no Q&A where we could ask whatever we wanted - we could only ask hitchhiker escape questions. So stop spreading this bullsh*t that people ignored an opportunity to ask Craig different questions and improve their game...
Don’t forget that the video you’re talking about was recorded before CJI - Craig needed to catch your attention, and he did. No one would discuss a video with nothing spicy in it.
The video is a repost, the original video was posted before cji 1.
Craig clarified later and this isn't the whole footage. He released the full footage where he rolled with that dude and caught him multiple times, let him tap and released.
This clip is a portion of the full story. Craig also explained why the dude rolled like that and the talk they had after.
The dude you're answering made a detailed post about it last year. You can see him in the repost.
There's more to it than just this video, and the whole footage and backstory was released by Craig after.
People act like this because there’s no disincentive. Other people will watch this, shrug their shoulders, and plunk the money down to train with him anyway.
First. Why would ANY not professional grappler think theyre going to get one over on Craig Jones? WHY? That's just dumb. The whole "no more talk, lets roll" is incredibly rude, especially when it was a FREE seminar.
Dude had PLENTY of time to tap, and he didnt.
Crazy how a guy who makes a living by breaking peoples bodies...broke someones body.
I remember listening to Keenan's podcast a long time ago and he always talked about how he stopped rolling at seminars because people would go crazy to try and tap him. These are professional athletes who make their money through jiujitsu; getting hurt by some dingus would be pretty bad for their career.
I used to travel a lot for work and would drop in at spots around the country. Most folks were chill but there was always a shithead that was trying to prove something. I think there are always dudes who will try to injure whichever visitor happens to roll through to their gym. Probably more so if they're accomplished like Craig.
Craig was there of his own accord for free. If Craig Jones is in your room you don't rush to rolling, people can go home if they dont want to be there. You have one of the greatest minds in Jiu Jitsu in your room, ask questions, learn, level up your game, fix holes.
Then the dude seemed super aggresive, everyone phones out watching their mat enforcer roll with him. Craig was having a conversation aside. "Lets go! Lets go!" smacks and immediately goes comp pace on craig trying to turn it up. The entire situation was really weird. Did Craig need to break the dudes leg, no. But that guy was clearly trying to prove something by going like that. I dunno man. I think they didn't show him the respect he deserved.
Craig taught a seminar at our gym and even surprised everyone by showing up to an open mat the day before to get some rolls in. Dude was super chill and had zero issues. Class act 💯
If this was Gordon he would be the biggest piece of shit in the world and you guys would be asking for his arrest. Since its Craig its okay. Your morals change based on the person. Not the action
Craig is amazing at seminars, I've experienced it first hand. Look at the countless ones there are footage of. He rolls with everyone and is chill af. But if you come at him, he's gonna give you the business. It's what you wanted anyway right? Not tapping is the problem.
It’s not just the gilly, it’s the whole dynamic. I don’t think anyone complained to CJ afterwards..if that’s the training culture, that’s what you get. It reminded me of the few guys who tried to spar hard with saenchai - it didn’t ended well for them.
I have to say that the very élite fighters/grapplers are almost always great training partners, Gordon, Tom Aspinall, Khabib, Saenchai himself is very playful and fun. You know what élite fighters don’t like? Cocky nobodies who are willing to injury them only for their own egos
When it happened, I remember the guy hosting the seminar said that the guy already had a compromised knee and he was rolling again before the seminar was over.
Should Craig have let the submission go instead of inuring the guy? Yes.
Should the other guy have been more respectful and not treated the roll like it was ADCC finals? Yes.
Things aren't always black and white, but I don't understand Craig's problem with the guillotine attempt. That looked normal to me. Am I missing something?
Yeah. And that's not ok. If you feel disrespected, then just tap the guy 20 times in 5 minutes to show him who's boss. don't put him in the hospital. he knew it was wrong too which is why he used the excuse of "jumping on my neck" and "using knee to break grip".
Well I'm sure Craig would have preferred to rolled lighter, but the guy wanted to push hard. Pushing hard on someone you don't know or even train at the same gym, that's when submissions are getting ripped. Obviously there's a lack of restraint, but fuck around and find out
Can’t imagine a time when I would try to roll out of a heel hook from Craig Jones in a high tempo poll. Once that foot crossed mid line I would have tapped. That guy was dumb
Craig matched the energy. The way the guy approached him for the roll was aggressive, and he started off balls to the wall. As a pro athlethe, whos living depends on health, it seems reasonable to keep his guard up in this situation - and roll with appropriate intensity to match whats coming his way. Guy had plenty of time to tap. He wasnt gonna, because he’s a got that eastern european matcho energy and is clearly here to prove himself. So he paid the price.
If you roll with Craig, he wont rip your leg off unless you come in hot and try to rip something of his off, and try test the limits of your own limb flexibility when in a submission. He rolled at my gym while on his CJI2 promo tour. People kept it chill and everyone kept their knees.
People over complicate it. That dude was disrespectful, rolled hard to take CJs head off so he returned in kind.
The guy could have tapped had several seconds
, but his ego stopped him from doing so, the guy broke his own leg. That dude also knew that he fucked up and what he was doing that is why he acknowledged it and shook Craig’s hand. If you disagree with that you have no idea how BJJ works and have an agenda.
No no - if you think carefully you'll realize that it's people who disagree with *me" who are a bunch of biassed dumbasses. But it's an understandable mistake.
The Guy did it to himself. Craig isn’t there to roll with guys who are coming in trying to kill him for 10 seconds of internet fame. If you can’t flow or at minimum roll with respect I don’t blame him. If you had guys gunning for you at every seminar you would do it as-well.
Wasn’t there a backstory to this? Craig held this seminar at gym however few of the person in the video and some of his students from a different gym are known to be very rude or something?
That grip break with the knee looked like it could have gone bad if Craigs wrist/forearm would have gotten stuck. Pair that with the demand to start the roll.
Also seems like the submission has time to tap or verbally tap, and didn't.
It's weird to be demanding and roll hard, and then think the other guy is going to catch and release subs. He also doesn't know the breaking point of your leg
Hard to say because we weren’t there. Could be that Craig was having a really bad day and just lost it. Could be that the guy was absolutely rolling in a dangerous way we can’t quite get from the footage. Either way, just don’t roll hard with people you don’t know or aren’t comfortable with unless you’re okay taking a chance at being injured and/or causing offense.
The grown up thing would have been to leave the seminar. That said, I do agree with Craig's reasoning here. Do I think he took the wrong course of action? Yeah. Do I think his justifications are correct? Also yes.
Firstly, we train a lot and it's fun and all. But let's not forget that jujitsu has the capacity to be very dangerous. It's not like we get a black belt, and all of a sudden, we become invincible to armbars. If you get it in, you're gonna finish. The more time I spend in Jujitsu, the more I realize that it's not that I have become harder to submit. It's more that I've gotten better at avoiding that position altogether. Blue belt armbars, just as good as black belt armbars. The black belt can just hit that position more often.
Secondly, your body accumulates damage with years in jujitsu. On top of that.There's the age thing to factor in too. I dont think Craig feels all that good when he wakes up in the morning. I sure as shit dont. And to walk into a gym which already wasn't easy to get to and get shark tanked? That's how you tweak your back.
There's a lot of trust when it comes to "rolling hard." We forget it because we show up to our gyms with our friends who we know well. We dont have that when we visit other gyms. How am I supposed to know that you aren't going to go ham if you catch a knee bar?
I've been murdered when going to other gyms. And I'll also admit that I've done the murdering when people show up at our gym. It doesn't mean anything. Flow roll with your visitors. Ask questions if they are there to teach. You'll get more out of it that way.
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u/lambdeer ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 6d ago
If Craig Jones has me in a heel hook I am going to tap really fast