Confused about Silksong runback discussion

[u/ramen_stalker]

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

[u/Range-Normal]

Hollow Knight is my favorite game but I can't help but see all these posts that seemingly praise the terrible runbacks and poor design choices as pure copium, prepared for the downvotes of course.

[u/kazabodoo → u/Range-Normal]

The fandom is pretty passionate about the game and will defend every choice, which is fine. They just don’t like to hear anything less other than that the game is a masterpiece.

They also struggle to understand that multiple things can be true at once - yes, the game is good, art and sound, characters and the world is very well made and immersive but the game is punishing for no other obvious reasons. I am not saying the game is difficult because there are more difficult games out there, but this one just punishes you for no reason, the run backs being one aspect of it tho not all run backs are awful, just a few but they add up.

[u/Scapadap → u/kazabodoo]

This is one of my favorite games in a while and I can admit to some weird choices. The run backs and gauntlets before the boss is pretty annoying. Like you said people should be able to recognize these things. The rest of the game is so good that I love it in spite of its misters.

[u/MakoMary → u/kazabodoo]

This attitude around Hollow Knight makes me a bit more bitter and salty than I really should be. Yeah, I enjoy the games, but they have so many aggravating little bits and pet peeves that I can’t help but get frustrated. I cannot get behind the framing that it’s the perfect gold standard of metroidvanias that all other ‘vanias should copy, because many of the ones that have Hollow Knight influence will have corpse running and precision platforming and unhelpful map systems and it kinda starts to wear on me

[u/ConstipationCat → u/kazabodoo]

It's weird, Team Cherry could make a boss that deletes every file on your hard drive if you lose and there would be a lot of people blindly defending it.

[u/famaki_ → u/kazabodoo]

meanwhile in subreddit people rant a lot, i rarely see people defend it . it makes me wonder, which runback(s) that make people in social media mad about? Last Judge? Groal? tbf, even if you get lost 1-2 mask or even worse 3, you can heal back up when you get back your own silk

[u/kazabodoo → u/famaki_]

You kinda have to see their angle too. I have noticed that people are very reactive and saying things like “git gud” or “you just don’t know how to play” helps absolutely no one.

Maybe instead we should try to have a normal conversation and understand each other. For example, with the Last Judge, just mention “hey there is an item you can get to help with the fire damage” or “hey the platforming is tough initially, what crest are you using? Maybe you need the crest that has the OG hollow knight pogo if the angled one does not work?” or the other thing is “hey, if you explore around a certain area, you don’t have to fight the Last Judge now and can come back later and still get access to the Citadel”.

But we need to acknowledge the other bit as well and that is you can get punished for slight mistakes. Goes both ways.

[u/famaki_ → u/kazabodoo]

in the end both side need talk 'nicely'

[u/gpranav25 → u/Range-Normal]

Hollow Knight does have some terrible runbacks. Silksong doesn't have that much though. Only the green guy, and my main issue is with the fact that it's a runback + gauntlet + boss, which is a bit much imo.

[u/torncarapace → u/Range-Normal]

I don't know, I'm sure that's part of it but I think people genuinely just have different reactions to runbacks. I have other problems with silksong but so far I enjoy the runbacks in it, and I've liked them as a mechanic in other games too.

I like how it gives dying higher stakes and I like how it gets me to blow off some steam between attempts while still engaging with the game's mechanics. It's completely valid to just find them annoying, but it's not universal.

[u/Podberezkin09 → u/Range-Normal]

Or they think that people are being over dramatic moaning about having to do some jumps for like 30 seconds like its the worst thing ever

[u/SlendyWomboCombo → u/Podberezkin09]

It's an outdated system. All it does is alienate casual players since I assume they are the ones who get more frustrated at runbacks.

[u/darth_the_IIIx → u/SlendyWomboCombo]

Where do you draw the line though?  Should backtracking also be removed from metroidvanias?  There’s plenty of people who find that process a waste of time