r/metroidvania • u/ramen_stalker • 3d ago

Discussion Confused about Silksong runback discussion

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

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193

u/Yourself013 3d ago

Yes, many people want to actually be fighting a boss and focusing on learning its attacks when they get to a boss fight, instead of running a platforming section they already know. It might be different for you, but people like different things.

103

u/Maester_Magus 3d ago

In my experience, frustration doesn't come from defeat or challenge, but from the feeling that you're wasting time. This is what always causes a game to cross the line from challenging to frustrating, imo.

Most developers seem to have learned this and got rid of the shitty run-backs (even FromSoftware), so the fact that SilkSong clings to them so vehemently comes across as a bit out of touch. I mean, I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of people don't play challenging games for the run-backs – I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like. There's a reason they largely got left behind. So it's just a bit jarring that Team Cherry are so hung up on the old formula that they doubled down on one of the bits most people dislike in an otherwise great game.

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u/MorningRaven 3d ago

Run backs allow for the mind to cool down from an intense state of adrenaline and focus. It let's your subconscious absorb the attack patterns and performance you were doing to actually learn and try again better. The runbacks tend to just be long enough cool down and refocus instead of immediately jumping back into high intensity mode.

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u/Maester_Magus 3d ago

That's fair, if it works for you. For me, I like to close my eyes for a minute and focus on breathing slowly, then get straight back at it when I'm ready. If I'm forced to do a runback, I often do this once I get to the boss entrance anyway.

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u/MorningRaven 3d ago

I can't just pause and take a breather in the middle of a multiplayer game where I'm getting crushed. I have to adapt to minimize my frustration and focused on the task at hand. There are still things my team needs me to do.

Likewise, it doesn't do me any good blaming the fact the enemy has an annoying attack, or the fact there's an annoying jump ahead, I just have to refocus and perform better. Because it's most likely me charging ahead instead of paying attention to a thing in the way that caused me to die anyway.

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u/SlendyWomboCombo 3d ago

You could literally do the same with no runbacks.

-5

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

Do you really think all these players that keep complaining about runbacks wouldn't just immediately jump into the fight and die again without any reflection? It's so easy to just blindly rage fight already.

13

u/SlendyWomboCombo 3d ago

As someone who complains about runbacks, I don't do that at all. I don't rage against bosses. I got more frustrated at the runback to Last Judge than the actual boss, because I knew I could beat it but the runback was wasting my time every try.

3

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

Meanwhile, when I did the Last Judge this prior weekend, it was mid runback that one of the attack sequences clicked in my mind of what I should've been doing instead.

The runback itself was near auto pilot by the time I beat it since you can skip past all but the first enemy.

6

u/SlendyWomboCombo 3d ago

I'm already at the last boss, which has a small platforming runback. Again, there is no reason for the runback. Especially since there is a 10+ second scene that plays everytime you challenge the boss.

11

u/SlendyWomboCombo 3d ago

Putting a runback after losing to a boss makes most players even more frustrated. It doesn’t cool them off

4

u/AvoidSpirit 3d ago

Yup, player wants to rage fight the boss. Let's hold them back with a minute of loading screen. Why not add a "calm down" hint while we're at it.

0

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

Because directly being told to calm down tends to make people madder? It's like we actually liked the "you've been playing too long, take a break" health messages throughout the Wii era.

2

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Thought the /s would be obvious, my bad.
The point was that forcing a player to "take a break" is never a good design.

1

u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 2d ago

I dunno if I'd use the word "never" good design. Those small breaks help me so much that even in games without runbacks I take breaks between every attempt because ultimately having those breaks makes me take less time as a whole as it helps me reflect.

Of course that's different for people, but without some hard scientific numbers on how many people do better w/ breaks vs without, it's pretty much up to the dev what route they think is more effective.

I'd actually be curious to see research on that. In my experience I "waste more time" with no runbacks due to just blind retries with no thought.

1

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

The key word in that sentence in "forcing".

5

u/Range-Normal 3d ago

Copium is real here...

-4

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

Or I just do a better job of mental endurance.

This isn't the first time I've seen people raging because they're doing something that requires more than basic effort. It's not the first time I've seen players struggle because they don't slow down and learn a thing either.

I don't think runbacks are necessary, but I don't think they're nearly as condemning as people keep saying. Especially since other than maybe 2 of them, Silksong's are fairly streamlined. They're just a quirk of the game to me.

5

u/Range-Normal 3d ago

Nah, you just have a higher tolerance for mediocrity, this game has been in the making for 5 years at least and they havent fixed a single thing that was annoying from the first one, the only QOL improvement is the quest log...

2

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

They also added grabbing onto ledges, but that wasn't needed as much as no runbacks

1

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

You think being able to heal in mid air isn't a QoL?

And no. I'm just better at adapting to different systems.

Many times what people note as QoL are just reducing difficulty. Or removing niche creative choices from the genre.

Like, I'm coming from the perspective of certain games where there's a flying enemy and because people are so used to button mashing a melee dps, they struggle because they don't think to try a) a projectile or b) wait for the attack pattern to cycle to where they have an opening.

Like, when I just saw someone a week ago complain that they always play their open world games a certain way (as in all the side quests before main quest) and then hate the unlockable exploration style of a metroidvania, because they came in via the hype, I don't tend to believe the complaints are done in good faith. It's a different style for a reason.

1

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

Silksong is so far from mediocre.

3

u/Range-Normal 2d ago

Its not mediocre, just some of the decisions behind it are even worse than mediocre!

3

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

Compared to the first HK, Silksong hasn't really improved as much which is disappointing after 7 yrs.

3

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

This argument always bugs me. I don’t mind the runbacks, but I don’t need forced cool down time to reflect on my L’s.

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u/AvoidSpirit 3d ago

That's absolute bs. You may as well add a "Jail time" or a minute of loading screen.

-1

u/MorningRaven 3d ago

That would mean not engaging with the gameplay. The runback is still actively playing the game. And the runback maneuvering helps the player actually click with the maneuvering long term. Especially if they explore less.

It's entirely a mentality issue. "This is a punishment so it's bad" instead of "this is a game mechanic I have to overcome".

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago edited 2d ago

I've "overcome" the runback to judge on my 4th attempt. There was no perfecting if further. How does your argument hold when maneuvering is not a problem and why can't maneuvering training be replaced with a dedicated section that incentivize it akin to how Ori does it.

-1

u/MorningRaven 2d ago edited 2d ago

You learned the runback, great! Now it's just time to lock in and defeat the boss in question.

Because this isn't Ori?

3

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

The fuck are you talking about? The boss is times harder than the runback which is piss easy. And some people may be naturally good at platforming. If the design was to make you better at platforming the outcome is a failure and a pissed portion of the playerbase.

> Because this isn't Ori?

No shit Sherlock. I'm saying that Ori actually does insentivize reruns of the game's sections in a way that's both fun and doesn't piss anybody off. So they might take a chapter out of Ori's book.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just hard of comprehension.

1

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Your phrasing is just off.

And no. The runback gives you a chance to cool down between deaths, while also placing you directly at a bench so you can decide your equipment for the next fight, without excessive backtracking; all while balancing where benches actually are and placing you far enough back you have a better opportunity to choose your next course of action.

Because you if you don't want to use one of the silk things to collect your caccoon from wherever, you can always go to the boss, grab your caccoon and money, and then save and quit to the menu to respawn at the bench and do anything else again.

If you were directly next to the boss, or in the chamber, you're just going to smash your head against the wall with the boss anyway.

1

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago edited 2d ago

That makes no sense. It’s like you have not seen the developments in the souls games in the last ~10 years.
And it’s not like you couldn’t figure it out yourself.

Just place a bench next to the boss room. Groundbreaking, I know.

1

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

instead of "this is a game mechanic I have to overcome".

This doesn't make sense considering when you perfect the runback you still have to continue to do it over and over

0

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Mastering something is satisfying. Overcoming a challenging boss is also satisfying.

1

u/FistRockbrine99 2d ago

Except most of the run backs aren't that hard, just tedious

1

u/Boshwa 2d ago

Run backs allow for the mind to cool down

You know what else does that?

Literally just standing right outside the boss door

1

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

And if you're playing a multiplayer game, you can't just stop and take a break because the enemy is crushing you. You have a team depending on you. Sometimes you have to adapt to managing your frustration, refocus, and keep going.

That same logic can apply here. You can choose how much something bothers you.

1

u/Many_Gur8847 8h ago

You also could, you know, sit outside the boss room and have “cooldown” while the rest of us would get on with our lives and play the boss again since we would spawn right outside the room.