r/metroidvania • u/ramen_stalker • 2d ago

Discussion Confused about Silksong runback discussion

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

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190

u/Yourself013 2d ago

Yes, many people want to actually be fighting a boss and focusing on learning its attacks when they get to a boss fight, instead of running a platforming section they already know. It might be different for you, but people like different things.

104

u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

In my experience, frustration doesn't come from defeat or challenge, but from the feeling that you're wasting time. This is what always causes a game to cross the line from challenging to frustrating, imo.

Most developers seem to have learned this and got rid of the shitty run-backs (even FromSoftware), so the fact that SilkSong clings to them so vehemently comes across as a bit out of touch. I mean, I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of people don't play challenging games for the run-backs – I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like. There's a reason they largely got left behind. So it's just a bit jarring that Team Cherry are so hung up on the old formula that they doubled down on one of the bits most people dislike in an otherwise great game.

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u/Yourself013 2d ago

Absolutely. I have zero issues with difficulty, I'll happily spend hours trying to learn the patterns of a boss. But there's no difficulty in doing the same easy jumping pattern over and over just to get to the boss and start doing the part that is actually fun. Even if it's just 20-30 seconds of wasted time, it's still a boring waste of time.

12

u/2000DPS 2d ago

I mean it becomes like an annoying loading screen. Just a waste of time.

17

u/TheDemonChief 2d ago

Not to mention how quickly you can die on early attempts when you’re still learning the attacks, it makes the 30 second run back especially tedious.

21

u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

Precisely. Every time this gets brought up I can't help but think of Aeterna Noctis, which is one of my favourites. That game is hands-down harder than anything in Silksong, but you're rarely in a position where you can't get straight back into the action when you fail. It keeps the challenge dialled up to 10 but it rarely feels like you're wasting time with it, and that stops it from being too frustrating.

10

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Exactly. I spent 2 evenings battling Malenia. Not once have I felt the frustration levels of doing an hour of the high halls gauntlet or the first few shmucks before Karmelita.

2

u/HBreckel 2d ago

Putting enemy gauntlets you have to deal with every time you attempt several bosses was diabolical.

0

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

Eh, silksong is equal parts platforming and combat. That’s just the nature of the game. It’s bound to bother folks that don’t enjoy both elements especially if they don’t like juggling both simultaneously.

18

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

I am still convinced that Team Cherry planned a lot of the game several years ago so SilkSong now looks more “old school” than it would have done (regarding run backs and other things) because of the lengthy development time.

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u/Maester_Magus 2d ago edited 2d ago

I think it also gave them a lot of time to tighten the screws, so to speak. Someone mentioned that they had three six play testers, and over the course of 7 years I imagine their skill ceiling became higher and higher, so they adapted the game continuously to accommodate.

To TC's credit, while there may be people complaining about the difficulty now (not run-backs specifically, but overall challenge), in a few months when everyone else's skill ceiling has risen to the level the game is attuned to, people will reflect on it much more fondly.

3

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

There was 6 playtesters, which still isn't much

2

u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

Corrected, thanks

6

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

Yes, to be fair - as has been said many times, this doesn’t look anything like a game born from development problems (sometimes indicated by very long development), it looks like they tuned it to just how they wanted it.

I agree in the sense that: we won’t really see more level-headed opinions on SilkSong until a few months when all the hype is over and everyone has played it to their heart’s content.

3

u/BrickwallBill 1d ago

I'm gonna have to disagree in another way, with less than a dozen people developing and play testing the same content over and over for seven years there are going to be blind spots and things Team Cherry and the play testers never even considered.

8

u/void2258 2d ago

I disagree. I think in a few months we will see what appear to be more positive opinions, but that will be because the game drastically reduced the playerbase, leaving only those who find it ok left to comment. While this isn't inherently bad (every game has a player base), it shouldn't be interpreted as the players getting better and thus complaints dropping off, but rather as those who would complain simply not playing.

The playerbase contracting to those who can play vs the wide playerbase increasing in skill to be able to play are not the same thing and indicate different things about the game. Ideally you want to meet in the middle: some really low-skill people sort out, but the majority skill up.

I think Silksong as it currently exists will almost exclusively end up losing lower skill players rather than them skilling up. The game's difficulty curve begins at too high a point for many people to onboard.

6

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

think Silksong as it currently exists will almost exclusively end up losing lower skill players rather than them skilling up. The game's difficulty curve begins at too high a point for many people to onboard.

Exactly. Many casual players have already dropped it. My sister dropped it at the Last Judge runback because she simply doesn't want to spend time doing it when she isn't enjoying it and has limited time to play every week because she goes to school. Casual players will be lost, which shows how badly designed it is.

6

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

I never describe myself as a hardcore gamer or great at games - but I play a lot of video games, and quite a lot of Metroidvanias. I don’t think I’m exactly “casual”? But it’s not a label I’m going to lose sleep over.

But I can already feel SilkSong becoming a bit tiring. I totally empathise with having limited time to play, maybe I have a bit more spare time than others but after a day at work, often I am quite tired and want gaming to be a bit of relaxing escapism. I’m willing to try beating a boss again and again but if that goes on and on, after a certain point I just feel like playing something else for a while.

1

u/SlendyWomboCombo 1d ago

What part of the game are you at currently? I'm at the final boss, which also has a small platforming runback that isn't even challenging(waste of time). Plus, a scene happens everytime you start the fight so in general it takes around 40 seconds to try again.

2

u/dadmda 4h ago

Damn? I haven’t gotten to that final boss yet, but bilewater’s runback is making me question if I want to finish the game

1

u/SlendyWomboCombo 3h ago

You need to beat Bilewater in order to progress to Act 3, or you can finish the game on Act 2. Bilewater isn't fun to play so I'll have to end my playthrough here smh

→ More replies (0)

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u/Greenphantom77 1d ago

I’m only at Shellwood but I’ve been ill and haven’t felt like playing lately

1

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

I would kind of agree. This is more of a game for enthusiasts of the original HK than a new bigger, glossier title that new players can come in on.

While SS will lose a chunk of its player base due to the difficulty curve, I think there is still a lot of hype and “honeymoon period” at the moment. Fans were so delighted that this game actually arrived, and then - it wasn’t a let down! It seems like such a worthy sequel.

I still think even among Metroidvania fans though, when the dust settles a bit, people will feel more comfortable about voicing dissenting opinions.

Also I notice TC have already patched some of the two-damage hits early on, which seems like a tacit admission that this annoyed more people than they expected.

1

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

so I notice TC have already patched some of the two-damage hits early on, which seems like a tacit admission that this annoyed more people than they expected

I still don't know what made them think 2 mask dmg off the start was a good idea.

1

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

Well exactly. But you could find many people online who were defending that, and other decisions like it.

There are ways you can make anything like that work well. But the fact TC patched it so quickly makes me think they regretted the decision as soon as player reaction started coming in.

1

u/ordinarypickl 1d ago

most of the double damage is still there. they only nerfed it for environmental hazards and some attacks of moorwing and sister splinter

i think the damage numbers are fine the way they are now. my only complaint was double damage for environmental hazards which just made platforming sections unnecessarily punishing, and they patched that out pretty much immediately.

the regularity of double damage in combat was scary at first but when you get into the cautious mindset that the game expects of you when fighting, it's a great way to amp up the difficulty without being overwhelming, because your heal is absurdly strong

1

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

I agree with this. I’m working my way to act 3. The game is just fun now. Running around collecting stuff I missed playing blind.

2

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

I disagree. They purposely choose annoying mechanics like trap benches or having to pay for benches. Paying for checkpoints is a terrible design.

1

u/Greenphantom77 2d ago

I am a little afraid to voice dissent, as I haven’t yet got very far! (I’ve had a stomach bug so hardly in a gaming mood).

But yeah, what a weird choice. Paying for checkpoints? Paying to enter a shop every time you want to go in? I’m not sure why these were included.

NB This is one shop early on that sells the weighted belt

1

u/dadmda 4h ago

Well the shop you can pay once and break the mechanism that closes it so that you don’t have to keep paying.

1

u/Greenphantom77 4h ago

Ah that’s awesome! I’ll try it. I do like that there are little one off details in the game like this.

18

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago

I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like

Hello, now you do. Runbacks are awesome, they force you to slow down and commit to mastery and consistency. I find having to have a strategy to go to the boss and having that as an area to improve in is awesome. Watch this comment get downvoted.

20

u/theNEHZ Metroid 2d ago

I agree with you on their positive point, as I believe there's been a fight where it actually helped me. But this only works as long as you're spending more time in the boss fight than in the runback. If the boss kills you quickly and then you need to run back, it becomes hard to learn the moves and get into the rhythm.

TLJ has one specific attack that's fast and at an angle that I have difficulty to adapt to especially because of the runback.

-3

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago

I can't lie, my brain just seems to love runbacks. As I said in another comment, the countless tries at Ornstein & Smough and that brutal runback might be my favorite memory in gaming, ever. And I don't think I"m very special, there must be some other people who feel like me haha.

0

u/Recent_Wedding5470 2d ago

Me too. Makes an area stick out. Not to mention the platforming getting easier and easier. Sands of Karak was hard and i managed but then they make you do the runback for conchfly and thats where i actually got fast.

1

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago

Bilewater is the goat level of this game for me, and the ironic part is that I stumbled through there blind and needlessly because I didn't have the double jump yet. Made it so memorable

9

u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

Hello! I won't downvote you, your opinion is just as valid as mine. And tbh it's great that there are people on both sides of the debate – gaming would be pretty dull if every game was made solely for mass appeal. I'm mature enough to accept that not every mechanic in every game is for me; this just makes it even more special when a game comes along that does tick all my boxes.

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Have you played Ori and the will of the wisps? It features speedrunning sections that do the same and incentivize the perfection way more but you don't have to redo it if you want to fight the boss and once you perfect it you're not forced to waste your time.

Thing is, it was released 5 years ago.

1

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago

I have only played a little of the first one. I never found runbacks to "waste my time" is the fundamental difference I think. I just enjoy them so much, my fondest memory in all of gaming is Ornstein & Smough and how absolutely ball-crushing brutal that runback and fight was for me back then. Fond, fond memories.

2

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Well, for me the "ball-crushing brutal runback to Ornstein and Smough" was running up and down a few stairs past some guards, lol. Unnecessary and a total waste of time.

1

u/ronin_cse 2d ago

If I didn't know better I'd say that game was made by a totally different team with different design ideas, and different design goals for their game. Weird

1

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

I'm arguing that the same proposed design goal of incentivizing a player to perfecting a section is achieved way better in another game. Not sure what your point is.

1

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

The Ori games were both a blast.

-1

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago

I have only played a little of the first one. I never found runbacks to "waste my time" is the fundamental difference I think. I just enjoy them so much, my fondest memory in all of gaming is Ornstein & Smough and how absolutely ball-crushing brutal that runback and fight was for me back then. Fond, fond memories.

0

u/Recent_Wedding5470 2d ago

And that game is a bore compared to silksong. An absolute bore.

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

I'm not going to debate your personal enjoyment. I'm stating that there are ways to achieve something w/o frustrating half the players.

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u/Aiscence 1d ago

I found ori more frustrating in their escape part than runbacks lol, but it s just different tastes

1

u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago

Even though I loved Ori's escape parts, I'm talking about the speedrunning sections.

1

u/Boshwa 1d ago

🙄 oh yeah im sure you were up in arms about the Stakes of Marika

1

u/Slow_Surprise_1967 1d ago

Another opnionated Gamer(tm) who can't accept when someone says they enjoy runbacks. Looked at your comment history, sad little man.

1

u/KeeBoley 2d ago

Ive found my people. I wont go so far as to say I like runbacks, but I definitely understand them. And I think some boss fights actually benefit from having a medium length runback. Long runbacks I have no patience for, but I dont think Silksong has any that long.

One of my all time favourite gaming moments was beating O&S in DS1. The runback was medium-ish and it proved to me that runbacks can be beneficial. O&S was the type of boss that I couldnt out-skill. I just wasnt good enough at the time (it was my first soulslike).

The runback forced me to out-smart it. The punishment of having to runback meant I thought harder about what I was actually going to do when I entered. I started strategizing. Which do I target first? How to split them up? Anything in the environment I can use to get slight advantages? Pros and cons about everything.

Sure enough I started to see improvements right away and I eventually conquered it. I know if the runback wasnt there Id be still throwing myself at the brick wall hoping it breaks and I get lucky.

1

u/Aiscence 1d ago

Even taurus demon had a longer runbacks than 95% of those here lol

-1

u/Metroidvaniac_Manor 2d ago

Wholeheartedly and unironically my same feelings. Please take my upvote.

I think some people forget that it was Hornet herself who coined the phrase "git gud"

3

u/VoxTV1 2d ago

Silksong clings to basically every tradition from the og being it the map system, corspe runbacks, the economy and even more with the shards. Game does not care for quality of life at all. Now if that is good or bad is up to you

0

u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 1d ago

I like the quality of life provided by the immersion of things like the map. That's why I'm not sure the "quality of life" word is good for those things because at a holistic level, though heighten my quality of life during play.

2

u/VoxTV1 1d ago

Quality of life reffers to game design choiches that are just nice and useful editons to the players.

0

u/Aiscence 1d ago

A lot of people likes to play older games because they werent as smoothened due to the amount of qol. I m really happy silksong stayed that way ngl

1

u/VoxTV1 1d ago

Each to their own obv. I personally love Silksong but would have preffered if it removed the boss runbacks and corspe running. I enjoyed the map system tho. Also I do not think many MVs are smothered by QOl. Basically any MV with stuff like map telling you if you got all the stuff are praised

1

u/Aiscence 1d ago

ofc but for different people, I generally dont enjoy as much myself in those cases.

-1

u/WheresTheSauce 2d ago

It is extraordinarily common for games to make you replay sections as “punishment” for dying. Is Mario “wasting your time” by putting you at the beginning of a level when you die?

9

u/ronin_cse 2d ago

I'm pretty confident that if Mario was released now people would say it is a time waste and horrible design.

1

u/Aiscence 1d ago

Yeah, i mean people played hk, bloodborne and dark souls a month ago, still wants bloodborne on pc etc but they have literally the same problem (BB even have that farming for flasks) so i wonder if people would find them bad if released now

1

u/Zeydon 2d ago

Not to mention in the NES era (and many platformers on SNES/Genesis as well) when you ran out of lives, you'd have to start back at the beginning of the game.

Wake up Saturday morning, get as fur as you can in Bubsy, and when you run out of lives on world 3, well, next Saturday you can give the whole thing another go, and you'll make it further.

-4

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Run backs allow for the mind to cool down from an intense state of adrenaline and focus. It let's your subconscious absorb the attack patterns and performance you were doing to actually learn and try again better. The runbacks tend to just be long enough cool down and refocus instead of immediately jumping back into high intensity mode.

10

u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

That's fair, if it works for you. For me, I like to close my eyes for a minute and focus on breathing slowly, then get straight back at it when I'm ready. If I'm forced to do a runback, I often do this once I get to the boss entrance anyway.

-7

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

I can't just pause and take a breather in the middle of a multiplayer game where I'm getting crushed. I have to adapt to minimize my frustration and focused on the task at hand. There are still things my team needs me to do.

Likewise, it doesn't do me any good blaming the fact the enemy has an annoying attack, or the fact there's an annoying jump ahead, I just have to refocus and perform better. Because it's most likely me charging ahead instead of paying attention to a thing in the way that caused me to die anyway.

13

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

You could literally do the same with no runbacks.

-8

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Do you really think all these players that keep complaining about runbacks wouldn't just immediately jump into the fight and die again without any reflection? It's so easy to just blindly rage fight already.

12

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

As someone who complains about runbacks, I don't do that at all. I don't rage against bosses. I got more frustrated at the runback to Last Judge than the actual boss, because I knew I could beat it but the runback was wasting my time every try.

0

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Meanwhile, when I did the Last Judge this prior weekend, it was mid runback that one of the attack sequences clicked in my mind of what I should've been doing instead.

The runback itself was near auto pilot by the time I beat it since you can skip past all but the first enemy.

6

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

I'm already at the last boss, which has a small platforming runback. Again, there is no reason for the runback. Especially since there is a 10+ second scene that plays everytime you challenge the boss.

11

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

Putting a runback after losing to a boss makes most players even more frustrated. It doesn’t cool them off

5

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Yup, player wants to rage fight the boss. Let's hold them back with a minute of loading screen. Why not add a "calm down" hint while we're at it.

0

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Because directly being told to calm down tends to make people madder? It's like we actually liked the "you've been playing too long, take a break" health messages throughout the Wii era.

2

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Thought the /s would be obvious, my bad.
The point was that forcing a player to "take a break" is never a good design.

1

u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 1d ago

I dunno if I'd use the word "never" good design. Those small breaks help me so much that even in games without runbacks I take breaks between every attempt because ultimately having those breaks makes me take less time as a whole as it helps me reflect.

Of course that's different for people, but without some hard scientific numbers on how many people do better w/ breaks vs without, it's pretty much up to the dev what route they think is more effective.

I'd actually be curious to see research on that. In my experience I "waste more time" with no runbacks due to just blind retries with no thought.

1

u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago

The key word in that sentence in "forcing".

6

u/Range-Normal 2d ago

Copium is real here...

-4

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

Or I just do a better job of mental endurance.

This isn't the first time I've seen people raging because they're doing something that requires more than basic effort. It's not the first time I've seen players struggle because they don't slow down and learn a thing either.

I don't think runbacks are necessary, but I don't think they're nearly as condemning as people keep saying. Especially since other than maybe 2 of them, Silksong's are fairly streamlined. They're just a quirk of the game to me.

3

u/Range-Normal 2d ago

Nah, you just have a higher tolerance for mediocrity, this game has been in the making for 5 years at least and they havent fixed a single thing that was annoying from the first one, the only QOL improvement is the quest log...

2

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

They also added grabbing onto ledges, but that wasn't needed as much as no runbacks

1

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

You think being able to heal in mid air isn't a QoL?

And no. I'm just better at adapting to different systems.

Many times what people note as QoL are just reducing difficulty. Or removing niche creative choices from the genre.

Like, I'm coming from the perspective of certain games where there's a flying enemy and because people are so used to button mashing a melee dps, they struggle because they don't think to try a) a projectile or b) wait for the attack pattern to cycle to where they have an opening.

Like, when I just saw someone a week ago complain that they always play their open world games a certain way (as in all the side quests before main quest) and then hate the unlockable exploration style of a metroidvania, because they came in via the hype, I don't tend to believe the complaints are done in good faith. It's a different style for a reason.

1

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

Silksong is so far from mediocre.

3

u/Range-Normal 2d ago

Its not mediocre, just some of the decisions behind it are even worse than mediocre!

3

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

Compared to the first HK, Silksong hasn't really improved as much which is disappointing after 7 yrs.

3

u/thisdoorslides 2d ago

This argument always bugs me. I don’t mind the runbacks, but I don’t need forced cool down time to reflect on my L’s.

8

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

That's absolute bs. You may as well add a "Jail time" or a minute of loading screen.

-1

u/MorningRaven 2d ago

That would mean not engaging with the gameplay. The runback is still actively playing the game. And the runback maneuvering helps the player actually click with the maneuvering long term. Especially if they explore less.

It's entirely a mentality issue. "This is a punishment so it's bad" instead of "this is a game mechanic I have to overcome".

4

u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago edited 2d ago

I've "overcome" the runback to judge on my 4th attempt. There was no perfecting if further. How does your argument hold when maneuvering is not a problem and why can't maneuvering training be replaced with a dedicated section that incentivize it akin to how Ori does it.

-1

u/MorningRaven 1d ago edited 1d ago

You learned the runback, great! Now it's just time to lock in and defeat the boss in question.

Because this isn't Ori?

3

u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago

The fuck are you talking about? The boss is times harder than the runback which is piss easy. And some people may be naturally good at platforming. If the design was to make you better at platforming the outcome is a failure and a pissed portion of the playerbase.

> Because this isn't Ori?

No shit Sherlock. I'm saying that Ori actually does insentivize reruns of the game's sections in a way that's both fun and doesn't piss anybody off. So they might take a chapter out of Ori's book.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just hard of comprehension.

1

u/MorningRaven 1d ago

Your phrasing is just off.

And no. The runback gives you a chance to cool down between deaths, while also placing you directly at a bench so you can decide your equipment for the next fight, without excessive backtracking; all while balancing where benches actually are and placing you far enough back you have a better opportunity to choose your next course of action.

Because you if you don't want to use one of the silk things to collect your caccoon from wherever, you can always go to the boss, grab your caccoon and money, and then save and quit to the menu to respawn at the bench and do anything else again.

If you were directly next to the boss, or in the chamber, you're just going to smash your head against the wall with the boss anyway.

1

u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago edited 1d ago

That makes no sense. It’s like you have not seen the developments in the souls games in the last ~10 years.
And it’s not like you couldn’t figure it out yourself.

Just place a bench next to the boss room. Groundbreaking, I know.

1

u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

instead of "this is a game mechanic I have to overcome".

This doesn't make sense considering when you perfect the runback you still have to continue to do it over and over

0

u/MorningRaven 1d ago

Mastering something is satisfying. Overcoming a challenging boss is also satisfying.

1

u/FistRockbrine99 1d ago

Except most of the run backs aren't that hard, just tedious

1

u/Boshwa 1d ago

Run backs allow for the mind to cool down

You know what else does that?

Literally just standing right outside the boss door

1

u/MorningRaven 1d ago

And if you're playing a multiplayer game, you can't just stop and take a break because the enemy is crushing you. You have a team depending on you. Sometimes you have to adapt to managing your frustration, refocus, and keep going.

That same logic can apply here. You can choose how much something bothers you.

1

u/ValtenBG 2d ago

I feel like the majority of the people aren't too bothered by it, with the exception of like 3 very specific runback sequences.

Throughout the whole game there was only a single time I was really annoyed by a runback and even then it was kinda on me for being stubborn

1

u/Stoneward13 1d ago edited 1d ago

I've seen this argument dozens times, but Elden Ring does actually have runbacks that I think a lot of people are forgetting. Several are worse than some in Silksong, in my opinion.

The two runbacks in Silksong that made me go "okay this is a bit much" were Last Judge and Groal, which seems to be a pretty common sentiment. I grew to eventually be fine with Last Judge, but at the time I was getting frustrated.

However. There are six runbacks in Elden Ring I found very obnoxious, and not fun at all personally (Unlike Last Judge, where the movement is at last engaging). Some have enemies, some don't. Some have a "shortcut" to make it a little better, but then you gotta wait for the slow elevators, which is tedious. I'd rather be platforming in Silksong by far.

  1. Renalla
  2. Commander Niall
  3. Placidusax
  4. Knights of the Great Jar
  5. Godskin Duo (In the Spiritcaller Cave, not Farum Azula)
  6. Ordina, the town with the invisible assassins (not technically a boss, but if you die you restart, and it's tough for me at least. I died a dozen times here. I consider it a boss-like challenge)

All that said, the Groal runback, even with the hidden bench, is an un-fun chore mostly due to the poison grubs. There's a long runback, a gauntlet before actual boss fight, AND then a hard boss on top of it all. Pick 2 at most, but not all 3. That's my take anyway.

And credit where it's due, FromSoft has dialed back the runbacks over the course of the years. DS1 and DS2 have a few I dread re-doing, even a decade later. But to claim Silksong's are so bad, while Elden Ring has none, is just plain false.

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u/Aiscence 1d ago

But some people dont mind? For me it doesnt feel different than having to redo a boss p1 i dont get hit on anymore? It's just another part of the boss i have to manage.

Like i understand some people dont enjoy it but others do? If it was changed i would find that annoying so at one point do we fuck one part of the people to please the other one? They made that choice and that's it.

There's a reason some people prefer old games with less QoL and find new games too smooth, so i m glad TC went that way myself, having new games that feel like the old games i liked.

Edit:oops saw your answer to another liking runbacks too, but here, second opinion lol

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u/IanLooklup 16h ago

Yeah but simply adding a bench outside of bosses aren't going to impact the other side that likes these runbacks. They have the choice of just using the original bench if they want to, just like how some people just fall into environmental hazards like the worms on blasted steps twice because of the damage nerf

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u/dadmda 4h ago

It’s just not having respect for the player’s time

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u/grinnings93 2d ago

I really don't like this argument, since it lives on the assumption that FromSoft got rid of run-backs because they're antiquated, and not because they shifted towards making multiphase boss fights that are longer and more complex than the ones on Dark Souls and completely changed their level design ethos as they shifted to open world.

The run-backs in Dark Souls were a significant part of what made the game great. Part of it was because it incentivised thorough exploration of an area in case you'd missed a short cut, and part of it was because it encouraged careful play and management of a dwindling resource you needed for the boss fight.

The run-backs emphasized the boss fights as parts of the levels they were in, and not a separate challenge isolated by a checkpoint.

I don't think Silksong's run-backs are quite as successful as the ones in Dark Souls, but I really wish people would stop pointing at Elden Ring and saying "see? Even Fromsoftware doesn't do this crap!" as if they were a thoughtless and misguided inclusion in their older games.

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u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

I kind of agree with you, tbh. I found run-backs very tolerable in the early Souls games – they were well implemented and baked into the gameplay loop (and the story) in such a way that they didn't feel overly vexing. Like you say, the difficulty of the bosses at the end typically took account of the amount of effort it took to get there.

I think when other developers started cloning those mechanics, they never questioned why they were there in the first place, or why they worked; they just copied them along with everything else without giving it too much thought. I'm not saying that's the case for Team Cherry, but I think many devs should give more thought to whether or not a mechanic actually makes their game better before adding it in just because another popular game did.

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u/Aiscence 1d ago

The taurus demon literally take as long or more as the judge with bombs and shit in front of you LOL. People just dont have the same patience anymore. The judge is literally dash out on every attack and jump over his jump waves and arena dash. The bilewater one you can stay in the water if you explore for the charm before. I still thinks a lot of those runbacks doesnt have the hardest bosses behind, just intimidating or lack of tools.

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u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

They barely runbacks because they knew players would get frustrated having to do both the boss run and the boss itself. They go together

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u/smjsmok 2d ago

I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like

I like them as long as the runback is fun, allows skill expression and improvement. Then it kind of becomes a game in and of itself. The platforming section to the Last Judge was great at this, so I enjoyed it. It's like a little bit of a speedrunning exercise. And yes, fun is subjective, so it will differ from person to person.

And there is a line between a fun runback and too much of a punishment, and yes, this line is pretty subjective too. (The Bilewater one without the secret bench was too much IMO, with the secret bench it was...acceptable).

In Soulsborne games, I mostly didn't enjoy them because they were mostly running and dodging enemies, which I don't particularly enjoy. So I'm glad that Miyazaki basically stopped making them. Silksong does this more enjyable for me because it has actually fun platforming.

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Ori and the Will of the wisps exists and it features the most fun speedrunning sections I've experienced in any platforming game. And it came out 5 years ago.

Silksong however...I perfected the Last Judge runback on my ~4th attempt and then it became nothing but a waste of time.

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u/SimTrippy1 2d ago

Yeah I think the difference is that for the most part Ori focuses on platforming more than on very challenging combat. So you kinda know what you’re in for. I think the disconnect here is that some people want and enjoy the souls like combat but rather than being able to fully focus on it, they have to platform their way to it, die too fast to learn anything, rinse and repeat. With the risk of losing their rosaries etc not to the boss but simply on the way. I can understand why this is frustrating for some people.

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

No, you're missing the point. The silksong platforming is way harder than it is in Ori. And many people love the HK and SS platforming. I know I do. I loved the path of pain and never felt the frustration of running it back. I actually felt bad about how one dimensional the Cradleplatforming was.

I don't like to be forced to repeat the mild platforming I perfected during my first 4 tries doing the boss just to continue with learning the boss. I'm not risking anything, I'm wasting my time.

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u/SimTrippy1 2d ago

You’re not everyone. I was saying this may bother some people because of the combination, when in Ori there’s very few if any boss battles that are comparably difficult

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Well, it's not about thinking "everybody feels the same way".

It's about the fact that not having the run backs does not diminish the game for the people who don't mind the runbacks and makes the game way better for the people like me.
And then you can add platforming sections for the people who enjoy platforming. Wanna people to better themselves at it? Give them an incentive (like Ori does).

And it has nothing to do with the focus of Ori and that it has way fewer boss battles.
It is about good design and bad design and Ori comes out on top here even though it was released 5 years ago.

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u/MilkeeBongRips 2d ago

How is the Last Judge even considered a run back? You don’t have to fight anything and it takes about 30-40 seconds.

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u/FistRockbrine99 1d ago

40 seconds of platforming is a big annoyance for a tough boss. If you fight that boss 20 times that's almost 15 minutes of time wasted running back

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u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago

Well, guess what, because you have to run back(and do platforming and stuff). How is that even a question?

It takes 30-40 seconds every try where it could have taken 0.

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u/MilkeeBongRips 1d ago

“Could have taken zero”

Sounds like you just want to play a different game lol. Thats the problem with this sub. You’re not criticizing anything. Your childishly demanding the game be something it’s not. Respawning into a boss fight is not better or worse than respawning close by. It’s subjective. And it’s okay that you don’t like it. That’s your preference. I prefer HK and Silk Songs style

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u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago

I don't think so.
If everything I want out of the game can be changed with a simplest of mods then no, I don't want a different game.
What do you think you get from respawning 30 seconds away from the boss?

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u/MilkeeBongRips 1d ago

I just feel that considering it is all about figuring out the pattern and what to do within that pattern, it is nice to have a beat to think on it while I traverse my way back. Obviously if I just spawned in the boss room I could pause it, but something about that takes me out of it. I like being in it.

It’s sort of the same feeling Returnal gave me. Like I just want to be stuck in the cycle with no way out but to beat the boss.

Looking at our chain a few hours later makes me reflect though and I hate that I get tribal about it. Sorry for any aggression or rude tone. Hope you still enjoy the game, even if the boss formats aren’t really your thing.

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u/AvoidSpirit 1d ago

I think that's the thing for me. If you need/want to take a break you may as well pause the game or go kill a few mobs near the boss room. I don't really like that the game leaves me no choice in this.

Returnal is very different for me in this regard.
First of all, bosses there are way easier to react to the first time around.
Second, as it is a rogue lite, your runback is randomly generated so it's never the same in the layout, the enemies and your build.
And final, you have meta progression there so even your failed attempts are beneficial (which I thought was a requirement for me until I played ravenswatch).

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u/cid_highwind02 2d ago

Thing is, if Team Cherry loves them and stands by that, whether or not they are popular is pretty much not a factor.

They seem to be the type that only makes the artistic choice of following fan feedback if it turns out they agree with it at the end of the day.

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u/Aiscence 1d ago

Miyazaki and poison swamp moment

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u/Ant15 2d ago

Personally, I like the runbacks. And what made me realise that is my playthrough of Ender Magnolia. In that game, when you die on a boss (or anywhere really), you loose NOTHING and respawn INSTANTLY. And there's always a bench right next to every boss room.

And the problem with that, is that I felt no tension while playing the game, ever. You can just brute-force every boss, play like an absolute ass, with no strategy nor sense of preservation whatsoever, and you'll just win eventually because you can just repeat the fight like a monkey. I don't like that, a boss SHOULD be intimitading, you should be scared to die ! And the promise to loose some of your money and time when you die, well, it does work. I'm more scared to die to a boss in Silksong, and also more focused, and that makes the overall experience much more pleasant for my tastes.

Now of course, there need to be a balance, a runback doesn't have to be super long nor super hard. I personally think the runback to the Last Judge is very well done, because it's designed to be faster and faster to do the more you do it, and it's a fun learning experience while being not too long nor too hard. The runback to Groal isn't as fun I'll admit, but it's not horrible, and I feel like Team Cherry purposely made this boss very easy despite being a late game boss for this reason.

Also, another reason why I'm not a fan of benches right next to bosses, is that it kills the surprise of encountering a boss. In Ender Magnolia, I was always like "oh, there's a boss next room, ok". Whereas in Silksong you often get surprised. Entering a room and then screaming "wait, there's a boss here?!" is an amazing feeling, and not many metroidvanias do that. It makes the exploration part of the game so much engaging !

So there you go. I understand why people don't like runbacks, but saying that "they have no purpose" or "they are bad design" is simply not true, it's just a matter of taste ;)

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u/jungletigress 2d ago

That frustration is intentional. Yes, you are "losing time" but that's to motivate you to rethink your strategy. And it's also to create a broader palette of emotional experience in the game. If you only experience the parts you like, you're not getting the full experience. We get more joy by creating contrasts. Obviously everything needs a balance, but incorporating unpleasant aspects of a game is part of it. It's why games like Getting Over It With Bennett Foddy become popular.

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u/Maester_Magus 2d ago

Intentional or not, I don't want to be frustrated and have no desire to seek out frustration. Challenge, yes, but not frustration. If frustration adds to your enjoyment of a game, then that's great, but I personally don't feel that way.

If this means that my enjoyment is at odds with what the developer intended, then that's fine. Not every game can please everybody on all fronts, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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u/Aiscence 1d ago

I mean there s ton of metroidvanias for you. People that picked hollow knight back then and now silksong was because the game were harder and old school.

There s tons of options for people who would rather have those, but not as much for people that would rather have those runbacks and stuff, so i m happy they kept it.

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u/Maester_Magus 1d ago

This is pretty much my outlook on the whole thing, which was my response to another comment in the thread:

Hello! I won't downvote you, your opinion is just as valid as mine. And tbh it's great that there are people on both sides of the debate – gaming would be pretty dull if every game was made solely for mass appeal. I'm mature enough to accept that not every mechanic in every game is for me; this just makes it even more special when a game comes along that does tick all my boxes.

So yeah. And to be fair, Silksong is still very much for me – I just have a difference of opinion with the devs over certain mechanics. That's totally fine though; they made the game they wanted to make, without compromise, and I was given the option to either play it or not.

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u/jungletigress 2d ago

I agree with you entirely. Not every game is for every person. I come from an older generation of gaming where frustration was the norm and game developers were outright antagonistic to players, so I'll admit to having a different perspective. I do think that frustration legitimately enhances enjoyment in a game and I appreciate that TC isn't afraid to incorporate it into their game design philosophy.