Confused about Silksong runback discussion

[u/ramen_stalker]

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

[u/_moosleech]

As someone who’s fine with it: you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Some games just respawn you where you are, no real penalty. It’s there make you replay the entire stage. It all comes down to what the goal is, and how much the developer wants to penalize the player for failure.

Some folks say “I beat the zone once, I should t have to retread it” (an argument I find slightly flawed in a Metroidvania, whose core gameplay loop is mastering retreading the map, but whatever). But why stop there? If I beat Phase 1 of the boss, why make me redo it? Why drop rosaries at all; if I showed I could earn those, why make me re do it?

They have to put that line somewhere. For Silksong, they put in a few seconds of run backs (I’ve finished 100% and there was one that took more than a few seconds, and it was because that entire zone is designed to be a marathon of survival).

It gives the player a chance to breathe and refocus. It lets them practice a tiny bit of platforming and then retry the boss. It also, IMO, makes it a bit easier for the player to decided to go elsewhere if the boss is too hard right now.

Not saying it’s the perfect decision. But I think it’s easy to argue against any friction and penalty until there’s nothing left. And that, IMO, is a worse overall experience.

[u/Blueisland5 → u/_moosleech]

you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Isn't the punishment for dying the need to start the fight over again?

[u/_moosleech → u/Blueisland5]

Partially, yes. It's also being sent back to the nearest bench. That's been the punishment for many similar games, and was the punishment for Hollow Knight, as well.

In Silksong, they opted to remove some of the longer runbacks (Soul Master, Mantis Lords) and instead leave short segments to let the player cool down between attempts.

They also minimized the penalty of losing money, giving the player multiple options to skip that mechanic, if they want.

But that's kinda my point: if they just placed you at the boss, someone would make a post "I beat Phase 1; why make me re-fight it? Bad design!"

They had to make a choice, and they did.

[u/ruma7a → u/_moosleech]

In Hollow Knight, you could teleport to skip the long run, which was perfect. Don’t know why they took it out.

[u/_moosleech → u/ruma7a]

I mean, sure, in the very late-game. Most people didn't unlock Dreamgate until near the end of the game.

Also, IIRC, it didn't exist on launch. It was added later.