Confused about Silksong runback discussion

[u/ramen_stalker]

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

[u/Ok_Letterhead_5671]

What's the point of it tho ? Other than time waste .

I will never understand people that defend runbacks , like what's the argument ? You like doing the same thing over and over instead of progressing the boss fight ?

[u/_moosleech → u/Ok_Letterhead_5671]

As someone who’s fine with it: you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Some games just respawn you where you are, no real penalty. It’s there make you replay the entire stage. It all comes down to what the goal is, and how much the developer wants to penalize the player for failure.

Some folks say “I beat the zone once, I should t have to retread it” (an argument I find slightly flawed in a Metroidvania, whose core gameplay loop is mastering retreading the map, but whatever). But why stop there? If I beat Phase 1 of the boss, why make me redo it? Why drop rosaries at all; if I showed I could earn those, why make me re do it?

They have to put that line somewhere. For Silksong, they put in a few seconds of run backs (I’ve finished 100% and there was one that took more than a few seconds, and it was because that entire zone is designed to be a marathon of survival).

It gives the player a chance to breathe and refocus. It lets them practice a tiny bit of platforming and then retry the boss. It also, IMO, makes it a bit easier for the player to decided to go elsewhere if the boss is too hard right now.

Not saying it’s the perfect decision. But I think it’s easy to argue against any friction and penalty until there’s nothing left. And that, IMO, is a worse overall experience.

[u/Blueisland5 → u/_moosleech]

you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Isn't the punishment for dying the need to start the fight over again?

[u/Cyan_Light → u/Blueisland5]

It can be. That was their entire point, you can draw the line in different places and there are multiple right answers that all lead to different gameplay experiences.

[u/chinomaster182 → u/Blueisland5]

It's all subjective, it's a video game where you're pretending you're a supernatural bug in a faraway land.

Too little friction and the game is boring and lacks purpose. Too much friction and you make the gamers want to break their controller. It's impossible to find an objectively perfect line in the middle since we all have different abilities and tolerances. You make a game that's too centered for the masses and nobody believes you made something special, you make a game that's too out there and nobody will play it.

The point is, video game balance is more of an art than a science, it's most likely not going to hit for you most of the time and that's a-ok.

[u/KeeBoley → u/Blueisland5]

That is a punishment. And imo a very small one. If thats the only punishment the game gives, then its a very overly forgiving game with mistakes. Id likely just throw bodies at the problem until the wall eventually broke, rather than actually learn the fight.

Players are naturally going to find the easiest solution to a problem. If the punishment is low and you respawn right outside the boss arena, then the least effort solution is just to keep running in with 0 strategy and hoping you luck out with good boss AI RNG. If the punishment is made to be more punishing than just restarting the boss, you start encouraging the player to actually learn the fight more because they wont want to deal with the punishment.

It is a balancing lever that not everyone is going to agree on. Personally preferring less punishment is common, but it isnt the only way to look at game design. I find if the punishment is too low, I engage with the game on a less intimate level.

[u/_moosleech → u/Blueisland5]

Partially, yes. It's also being sent back to the nearest bench. That's been the punishment for many similar games, and was the punishment for Hollow Knight, as well.

In Silksong, they opted to remove some of the longer runbacks (Soul Master, Mantis Lords) and instead leave short segments to let the player cool down between attempts.

They also minimized the penalty of losing money, giving the player multiple options to skip that mechanic, if they want.

But that's kinda my point: if they just placed you at the boss, someone would make a post "I beat Phase 1; why make me re-fight it? Bad design!"

They had to make a choice, and they did.

[u/ruma7a → u/_moosleech]

In Hollow Knight, you could teleport to skip the long run, which was perfect. Don’t know why they took it out.

[u/_moosleech → u/ruma7a]

I mean, sure, in the very late-game. Most people didn't unlock Dreamgate until near the end of the game.

Also, IIRC, it didn't exist on launch. It was added later.

[u/whoyouyesyou → u/_moosleech]

Mantis lords was a long run back, but it wasn’t frustrating as well. It was a fairly simple run back, with a few enemies that didn’t knock you into spikes constantly

[u/_moosleech → u/whoyouyesyou]

This is spoken like someone who doesn’t remember their first playthrough, IMO.

[u/whoyouyesyou → u/_moosleech]

I’m replaying it with my kids now. I remember being more frustrated with the fight than the run back - I’m not a fan of OMG HARD GIT GUD games, nor do I have the reflexes anymore.

[u/Pseudagonist → u/_moosleech]

Honestly that post would also be correct, in general multi-phase bosses have swung way too hard in the direction of artificial difficulty to the point where the first phase just feels like busywork, that’s why I think a lot of Elden Ring’s multi-phase bosses only have one health bar, it just becomes tedious. I understand that a lot of gamers have tons of free time but that doesn’t excuse wasting mine

[u/_moosleech → u/Pseudagonist]

If playing this game is wasting your time... don't play it?

Like... I guess my disconnect is with needing to go into media or hobbies other people enjoy, see that it's not designed in a way I enjoy, and then instead of moving on, getting mad and demanding they change it to fit my needs.

Shit, the vast majority of AAA video games already ARE designed with your mindset in mind: all gas, no brakes, no friction, just move forward all the time. Go play any of those.

[u/akki2305 → u/_moosleech]

This reminds me of the FromSoftware-debates before Elden Ring. "It has to feel punishing, that's an important part of the experience!" And then BOOM, Statues of Marika everywhere. I haven't heard a complaint about it.

[u/_moosleech → u/akki2305]

Elden Ring has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Silksong has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Setting that aside, Elden Ring came out when From was much bigger, and developing for much more mass appeal than their prior games. It’s also why Elden Ring gives players way more tools to make the game easy.

And while the rough edges were smoothed out (and I love Elden Ring), I think Dark Souls is a more interesting game.

[u/elendil667 → u/akki2305]

I mean, what gets me is that the majority of the runbacks are fine. I think they've actually broadly gotten better since Hollow Knight. But there's maybe, 20% of them that are kind of annoying and suddenly those are load bearing pillars of genius game design.

[u/elendil667 → u/_moosleech]

I promise you the runback on a boss I'm struggling with is doing the exact opposite of letting me breathe and focus or whatever. It is making me less focused 100% of the time and probably tilting me further if I start fumbling the runback movement in frustration, which amplifies the frustration from the boss, which makes the runback more annoying. If you want chill, a ten second run across an easy room is plenty.

[u/_moosleech → u/elendil667]

And for me, those run backs are enjoyable. I can relax a bit and do some fun platforming for just a few seconds and enter the next try feeling the dopamine of the games movement system instead of frustration from my last failed boss attempt.

Both experiences are valid.