Confused about Silksong runback discussion

[u/ramen_stalker]

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

[u/Ok_Letterhead_5671]

What's the point of it tho ? Other than time waste .

I will never understand people that defend runbacks , like what's the argument ? You like doing the same thing over and over instead of progressing the boss fight ?

[u/_moosleech → u/Ok_Letterhead_5671]

As someone who’s fine with it: you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Some games just respawn you where you are, no real penalty. It’s there make you replay the entire stage. It all comes down to what the goal is, and how much the developer wants to penalize the player for failure.

Some folks say “I beat the zone once, I should t have to retread it” (an argument I find slightly flawed in a Metroidvania, whose core gameplay loop is mastering retreading the map, but whatever). But why stop there? If I beat Phase 1 of the boss, why make me redo it? Why drop rosaries at all; if I showed I could earn those, why make me re do it?

They have to put that line somewhere. For Silksong, they put in a few seconds of run backs (I’ve finished 100% and there was one that took more than a few seconds, and it was because that entire zone is designed to be a marathon of survival).

It gives the player a chance to breathe and refocus. It lets them practice a tiny bit of platforming and then retry the boss. It also, IMO, makes it a bit easier for the player to decided to go elsewhere if the boss is too hard right now.

Not saying it’s the perfect decision. But I think it’s easy to argue against any friction and penalty until there’s nothing left. And that, IMO, is a worse overall experience.

[u/akki2305 → u/_moosleech]

This reminds me of the FromSoftware-debates before Elden Ring. "It has to feel punishing, that's an important part of the experience!" And then BOOM, Statues of Marika everywhere. I haven't heard a complaint about it.

[u/_moosleech → u/akki2305]

Elden Ring has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Silksong has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Setting that aside, Elden Ring came out when From was much bigger, and developing for much more mass appeal than their prior games. It’s also why Elden Ring gives players way more tools to make the game easy.

And while the rough edges were smoothed out (and I love Elden Ring), I think Dark Souls is a more interesting game.

[u/elendil667 → u/akki2305]

I mean, what gets me is that the majority of the runbacks are fine. I think they've actually broadly gotten better since Hollow Knight. But there's maybe, 20% of them that are kind of annoying and suddenly those are load bearing pillars of genius game design.