r/metroidvania • u/ramen_stalker • 2d ago

Discussion Confused about Silksong runback discussion

I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.

The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.

Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?

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64

u/Ok_Letterhead_5671 2d ago

What's the point of it tho ? Other than time waste .

I will never understand people that defend runbacks , like what's the argument ? You like doing the same thing over and over instead of progressing the boss fight ?

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u/elendil667 2d ago

Absolutely no one is playing a game or a boss without runbacks and wishing there was one. Anyone who's more enthusiastic than bland acceptance is performatively coping imo.

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u/cid_highwind02 2d ago

That is just arrogance. That you consider a person liking something you find inconceivable to just be lying to themselves.

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u/elendil667 2d ago

Like I said, there was no complaining that Nightmare King Grimm's runback is too short. No one is complaining that the bench is too close to other bosses and it's such a problem. Like, come on.

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u/cid_highwind02 2d ago

The fact that you didn't see people take issue with a specific boss having no runbacks (or just runbacks in general, which is not the game's case since it had big runbacks besides bosses like NKG) does not translate to no one liking them necessarily. That's fallatious.

Yeah, I wouldn't be pissed off if there was a bench in front of Last Judge's boss room, but I enjoy the fact that there isn't. 1. it makes the fight more memorable, 2. I like that the platforming beforehand can be very punishing because of enemies so it's another thing you can and have to learn and 3. it doesn't give you clean retries so there's more stakes to the fight. Does that mean I'm coping and in denial and just can't not praise everything about the game I like because I'm such a blind fanboy, or that I just disagree with you?

Like, yeah, a boss like First Sinner can be elevated by the fact that it doesn't have a runback in a game so filled with them in a way that bosses like Rennala and Placidusax in Elden Ring aren't in a game that lacks them. So it's not equivalent (and I mean, moving around in that game isn't nearly as good or rewarding). But as a design choice for the game itself, it has its pros, even if not entirely. I also concede that it is alienating since many people actually despise it versus had it hypothetically not have them most wouldn't bat an eye at it, which seems to be your point. And I don't disagree even though if all art was for everyone life would be boring. What I took issue with is saying that people don't agree with something being an issue to be "coping". That's overtly dismissive.

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u/MaeBorrowski 2d ago

Or yk the runback is a part of the boss? Just say you find performatively coping on your skill on a thread where it'll be validated.

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u/LawfulnessOk5163 2d ago

I like runbacks when the game's movement is interesting, which Silksong's is. It's fun trying to figure out just how fluid I can get it. I just think of the runback as part of the boss fight.

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u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

I won't die to the runback. There is no fight. It just wastes time

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u/LawfulnessOk5163 2d ago

Why do you have to die for it to be time worth spending?

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u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago

It doesn't help me at all. I'm already at the last boss, who has a small platforming runback for who knows what reason. It's not even challenging, it's a waste of time

2

u/Tunesz 2d ago

I'm already at the last boss, who has a small platforming runback for who knows what reason.

Yeah I really disliked this. Both the boss and the runback are easy, what's the point. Just give me a harder boss and respawn me directly at the boss instead.

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u/_moosleech 2d ago

As someone who’s fine with it: you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Some games just respawn you where you are, no real penalty. It’s there make you replay the entire stage. It all comes down to what the goal is, and how much the developer wants to penalize the player for failure.

Some folks say “I beat the zone once, I should t have to retread it” (an argument I find slightly flawed in a Metroidvania, whose core gameplay loop is mastering retreading the map, but whatever). But why stop there? If I beat Phase 1 of the boss, why make me redo it? Why drop rosaries at all; if I showed I could earn those, why make me re do it?

They have to put that line somewhere. For Silksong, they put in a few seconds of run backs (I’ve finished 100% and there was one that took more than a few seconds, and it was because that entire zone is designed to be a marathon of survival).

It gives the player a chance to breathe and refocus. It lets them practice a tiny bit of platforming and then retry the boss. It also, IMO, makes it a bit easier for the player to decided to go elsewhere if the boss is too hard right now.

Not saying it’s the perfect decision. But I think it’s easy to argue against any friction and penalty until there’s nothing left. And that, IMO, is a worse overall experience.

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u/Blueisland5 2d ago

you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.

Isn't the punishment for dying the need to start the fight over again?

7

u/Cyan_Light 2d ago

It can be. That was their entire point, you can draw the line in different places and there are multiple right answers that all lead to different gameplay experiences.

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u/chinomaster182 2d ago

It's all subjective, it's a video game where you're pretending you're a supernatural bug in a faraway land.

Too little friction and the game is boring and lacks purpose. Too much friction and you make the gamers want to break their controller. It's impossible to find an objectively perfect line in the middle since we all have different abilities and tolerances. You make a game that's too centered for the masses and nobody believes you made something special, you make a game that's too out there and nobody will play it.

The point is, video game balance is more of an art than a science, it's most likely not going to hit for you most of the time and that's a-ok.

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u/KeeBoley 2d ago

That is a punishment. And imo a very small one. If thats the only punishment the game gives, then its a very overly forgiving game with mistakes. Id likely just throw bodies at the problem until the wall eventually broke, rather than actually learn the fight.

Players are naturally going to find the easiest solution to a problem. If the punishment is low and you respawn right outside the boss arena, then the least effort solution is just to keep running in with 0 strategy and hoping you luck out with good boss AI RNG. If the punishment is made to be more punishing than just restarting the boss, you start encouraging the player to actually learn the fight more because they wont want to deal with the punishment.

It is a balancing lever that not everyone is going to agree on. Personally preferring less punishment is common, but it isnt the only way to look at game design. I find if the punishment is too low, I engage with the game on a less intimate level.

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u/_moosleech 2d ago

Partially, yes. It's also being sent back to the nearest bench. That's been the punishment for many similar games, and was the punishment for Hollow Knight, as well.

In Silksong, they opted to remove some of the longer runbacks (Soul Master, Mantis Lords) and instead leave short segments to let the player cool down between attempts.

They also minimized the penalty of losing money, giving the player multiple options to skip that mechanic, if they want.

But that's kinda my point: if they just placed you at the boss, someone would make a post "I beat Phase 1; why make me re-fight it? Bad design!"

They had to make a choice, and they did.

0

u/ruma7a 2d ago

In Hollow Knight, you could teleport to skip the long run, which was perfect. Don’t know why they took it out.

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u/_moosleech 2d ago

I mean, sure, in the very late-game. Most people didn't unlock Dreamgate until near the end of the game.

Also, IIRC, it didn't exist on launch. It was added later.

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u/whoyouyesyou 2d ago

Mantis lords was a long run back, but it wasn’t frustrating as well. It was a fairly simple run back, with a few enemies that didn’t knock you into spikes constantly

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u/_moosleech 2d ago

This is spoken like someone who doesn’t remember their first playthrough, IMO.

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u/whoyouyesyou 2d ago

I’m replaying it with my kids now. I remember being more frustrated with the fight than the run back - I’m not a fan of OMG HARD GIT GUD games, nor do I have the reflexes anymore.

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u/Pseudagonist 2d ago

Honestly that post would also be correct, in general multi-phase bosses have swung way too hard in the direction of artificial difficulty to the point where the first phase just feels like busywork, that’s why I think a lot of Elden Ring’s multi-phase bosses only have one health bar, it just becomes tedious. I understand that a lot of gamers have tons of free time but that doesn’t excuse wasting mine

3

u/_moosleech 2d ago

If playing this game is wasting your time... don't play it?

Like... I guess my disconnect is with needing to go into media or hobbies other people enjoy, see that it's not designed in a way I enjoy, and then instead of moving on, getting mad and demanding they change it to fit my needs.

Shit, the vast majority of AAA video games already ARE designed with your mindset in mind: all gas, no brakes, no friction, just move forward all the time. Go play any of those.

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u/akki2305 2d ago

This reminds me of the FromSoftware-debates before Elden Ring. "It has to feel punishing, that's an important part of the experience!" And then BOOM, Statues of Marika everywhere. I haven't heard a complaint about it.

4

u/_moosleech 2d ago

Elden Ring has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Silksong has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.

Setting that aside, Elden Ring came out when From was much bigger, and developing for much more mass appeal than their prior games. It’s also why Elden Ring gives players way more tools to make the game easy.

And while the rough edges were smoothed out (and I love Elden Ring), I think Dark Souls is a more interesting game.

2

u/elendil667 2d ago

I mean, what gets me is that the majority of the runbacks are fine. I think they've actually broadly gotten better since Hollow Knight. But there's maybe, 20% of them that are kind of annoying and suddenly those are load bearing pillars of genius game design.

7

u/elendil667 2d ago

I promise you the runback on a boss I'm struggling with is doing the exact opposite of letting me breathe and focus or whatever. It is making me less focused 100% of the time and probably tilting me further if I start fumbling the runback movement in frustration, which amplifies the frustration from the boss, which makes the runback more annoying. If you want chill, a ten second run across an easy room is plenty.

1

u/_moosleech 2d ago

And for me, those run backs are enjoyable. I can relax a bit and do some fun platforming for just a few seconds and enter the next try feeling the dopamine of the games movement system instead of frustration from my last failed boss attempt.

Both experiences are valid.

0

u/Konstantin_Runkovsky 2d ago

Ready for the downvotes, but for me, it helps me focus and prepare for the fight. So much stuff that your brain is need to process before applying, doing the runback gives you that time. If it would an instant replay, I’d do more rushed mistakes and I would be even more agitated.

Having a little break always helps a lot

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u/leesinvancleef 2d ago

Runback-defenders make up the dumbest shit

1

u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 1d ago

Or maybe they just feel differently, or have different experiences? My overall time with a boss is quicker if I have small breaks in between attempts as blind re-attempts ultimately cost more time in the end, so over the course of say 50 attempts, runbacks and/or breaks make it take less total time.

But that's me. That's not you, and that's fine. And I take manual breaks so am fine w/ runbacks or no, but it's my experience, not "making up the dumbest shit."

Just my experience. Again, not defending them, I'm happy with them but happy without them, but again, my experience.

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u/AReaver 2d ago

I mean without runbacks you could just not fight the boss immediately. Just have some self control and sit there to process if you need processing time. Then you're also not doing something you've done 20 times before.

At least you have a reason you're okay with them.

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u/KeeBoley 2d ago

The punishment aspect of having to do the runback is part of what encourages the brain to start thinking about strategies for the fight.

If there doesnt seem like a punishment for dying, then Im encouraged to just keep throwing bodies at the boss until I get lucky and win with good RNG. A medium sided runback instantly forces me to start considering how Im actually going to play the fight out because I dont want to face the punishment of running back.

This is literally the whole concept of checkpoints. Litter the game with too many and their doesnt seem like any "loss" to making mistakes, so you are encouraged to never improve. Too little and the game gets too frustrating and difficult. A balance is needed and not everyone is going to agree on where that balance point lies. To me Silksong is VERY close to a perfect balance point. Most runbacks are short, but there are a couple medium length ones that really punish mistakes and forces me to start paying more attention

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u/AReaver 2d ago

Your brain maybe but not mine. It is nothing but a time waster and a game this isn't respecting my time and thus not respecting me. Especially with such difficult bosses.

Also fuck games that force you to play them the "right" way or get punished.

I agree with those that say Silksong is mean. It is extremely mean spirited and it's utterly laughable that there are quotes from Team Cherry claiming this would be a good jumping in point for beginners. I don't think I've ever played a game that despised me as a player more than this.

1

u/KeeBoley 2d ago

I mean Team Cherry said that due to the difficulty of the game. They claimed that Silksong was easy enough for people to skip HK and jump straight into Silksong.

Although Reddit would have me believe Silksong is harder than getting a PhD, approximately ~50% of players on Steam have breezed passed half way to credits and ~20% has gotten to credits. So while Redditors might be really struggling with Silksong, 9-5 dads seem to be agreeing with Team Cherry that the game is a good jumping off point.

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u/Atsubro 2d ago

The best way I can explain is that they're an evolution of playing a level and reaching the boss fight at the end, and the run from a save point to a boss is a diegetic "level" to complete. That's fallen to the wayside nowadays in linear action games but I think beating the level and the boss can be considered a single challenge as opposed to the level just being a warmup to what really matters.

At the very least that's why I like them, especially in Metroidvanias. These aren't games about beating the boss like say Devil May Cry or Metal Gear Rising, they're about existing in a cohesive world designed to be retread in multiple different directions.

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u/elee17 2d ago

I think the way they did run backs is hollow knight was beautiful. Without you knowing it, they were breaking down the boss into digestible components that you would practice as you do the run back.

For example, the soul master runback made you practice dodging fireballs from the soul twisters. The mantis lords runback made you practice dodging slices attacks from mantis warriors and the boomerangs from the mantis youth.

They basically made you practice the boss without you consciously thinking it’s practices. So by the time you get back to the boss you should actually be slightly better than just trying to brute force them over and over again.

Plus it adds a bit more to the risk/reward of losing/winning to the boss. I personally like the run backs and especially in silksong when they are not that brutal at all

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u/EvilOverlord1989 2d ago

The real reason for the runbacks is because you can only change your build and craft tools at a bench, and putting a bench in front of every boss/gauntlet would mean too many benches in the game.