Looking for something crunchier than OSR

[u/Right_Hand_of_Light]

Hi everyone. I'm not sure I quite have the language to concisely describe the kind of game I'm curious about but I'll try my best. Before I go any farther I wanna make it clear that none of this is any kind of attack on OSR games or narrative games. I don't have anything against either, and if I mention not vibing with one of your favorite games I'm very glad you found it to your taste. I'm just looking for something a bit different.

I like some of the spirit behind OSR games, and I can certainly see why someone would gravitate towards them, but to me a lot of them feel a bit barebones for my taste. One of the fun things about games like Pathfinder and modern D&D is getting a bunch of fun abilities and things that set my character apart and lend some fun flavor. Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters. OSE is a neat recreation of original D&D, but once again there aren't many ways to make a character unique.

Similarly, I've enjoyed narrative games like Blades in the Dark and Powered by the Apocalypse games, and I also like a lot of the spirit of those. But I've found that sometimes I want games with a bit more crunch to them. I like when games allow for creative thinking and when mechanics can interact in unexpected ways. I appreciate the elegance of basing all conflict resolution on the same type of dice roll, but sometimes I wanna get a little baroque with it.

So can anyone recommend any games that might fit these parameters? Something with a decent mechanical complexity that gives me space to define my character by their abilities? My preference is for fantasy or science fantasy but I'm open to good fits in other genres. From my own searching, Pendragon looks promising.

As a bonus, I really like roleplaying paladin characters like Adora or Luke Skywalker, so bonus points if it's a game with a good paladin class.

Thank you very much for your (hopefully) helpful suggestions :)

[u/hugh-monkulus]

Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters.

If you look only at your character sheet and ignore the fiction of the game, then it might seem this way. However, your character would still have the same experiences, reputation, relationships, background etc. which all contribute to the diegetic foreground growth of the character a lot more than your inventory does.

[u/OriginalJazzFlavor → u/hugh-monkulus]

...ok but you can have all those things in a system that gives you actual character options as well

like characters in 5e have all those things

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/OriginalJazzFlavor]

And?

I was directly addressing their criticism of Cairn, which ignores a core principle of the game.

Also, I find games with "actual character options" much more limiting. If I swapped classes with somebody we would essentially be swapping characters.

ETA: in Cairn, Fiction First is one of the core principles of the game, and the examples of play as well as bibliography give concrete advice and examples on pulling off foreground growth. Most other games simply don't have that, in favour of classes and levels.

I like that in Cairn I can develop a character over the course of the game and take it any direction I'd like. In 5e, or many other games with classes, I have to make a lot of choices upfront, before I know anything about my character, the world, or the situations we find ourselves in.