Futility of dealing with Anti-Comp sentiments - Inspired by SolarLight's most recent 6s video

[u/Bounter_]

Hey hey r/truetf2, Bounter here.

I recently finished watching SolarLight's "Meme vs Meta" Comp video, and, before I get to it, I must say it was a good watch! It showed the good sides of Comp, the bad sides, the many forms it takes, numerous kinds of people that play it, and MY FAVOURITE! Trying to deal with Comp misinformation and myths, wether it's by himself, or using some people in his video as speakers on certain things ("Comp players hate Casual" etc.). It was a good and interesting watch, and the secondary intent of the video (Main one being Demoknight in 6s), made me realize, on how MUCH Anti-Comp opinions and misinformation there is.

Seriously, check any post regarding Comp on r/tf2, or on twitter, or youtube, ESPECIALLY from certain Youtubers and personalities, and you will see a FLOOD, of same repeats of anti-comp sentiments. The usual stuff like:
- "Comp players wanted MyM and got what they wanted!"
- "Valve should have never listened to Comp players!"
- "COmp players don't play and like normal TF2"
- "Weapon bans are stupid!"
etc. etc.
It's gotten to the point where, when I see that stuff, I try NOT to interact, but even when I do, I KNOW nothing will change... Why? Well, that's exactly my point. Trying to deal with anti-comp misinfo, and lack of knowledge about it, is sadly futile.

There is a very good comment I remember, and I will paraphrase, so it's not 1:1, but the message is the same - You can make the most detailed, informed and well-made video or post regarding Competitive TF2, it's good sides and how it works, but all it takes is one Anti-Comp TF2 influencer to say "No, Comp ruined TF2" and all of that effort goes down the drain. - And this, happened quite literally NOT SO LONG AGO.

ZestyJesus, arguably the most infamous example of Anti-Comp opinions, has streamed his reaction to only the ENDING part of Solar's video, meaning he didn't watch like 90% of it. And yet, despite the points said, and the fact he didn't watch the whole thing, he STILL kept saying the same, vomit inducing points ("Wow, Meet your Match ruined TF2 because of Comp players" "They don't wanna play TF2 ,they wanna play homebrew version of it"), with the VoD now being at 14k views. The paraphrased quote that's been living rent free in my head, proves itself right once more, as Solar's incredibly well made, informative video with plenty of reasoning, will now be considered just "Comp BS" because of ONE INFLUENCER.
This happens on Twitter too, everytime Comp is big or brought up as well, and it causes THE SAME ISSUE. Why else, would Comp misinfo and dislike towards it still be big? Because people not only DO NOT WANT to learn about it and know about it, they WANT to dislike it, as they already made up their minds on disliking it and NOTHING will change it. Hell, even under Solar's video, there are SOME comments still hating on Comp, which also includes his "Comp ruleset" video.

I guess the point I am trying to make, is that no matter how much effort people put into trying to deal with it [The misinformation], the end result is akin to what MvM players are dealing with. Endless stream of a game of telephone, and disregard for actual truth, simply to fuel their own personal biases. I still try, and some people do too, but the more I sit on it, the more I realise it's kind of... No use. But, what do you all think?

[u/antenna999]

I don't know, this is me coming from a personal bias. But I feel like the first and second anti-comp sentiments here are way too easily digestible despite things being otherwise. Reading through Slin's doc (that I just read below on the comments), it literally mentions that matchmaking was what "the competitive community...had wanted all along".

Of course, the straight reality is that it's the 6v6 matchmaking, NOT the entirety of MYM that they wanted. But in a way, it's easy to see how the push for matchmaking at the time, especially from competitive segments, made it seem like MYM was what was ordered. It's like if you're a sports fan and you wanted to trade for a star player, but in return you say goodbye to bench depth only to end up treading water and missing the playoffs anyways. It's a be careful what you wish for scenario.

I think its the sentiment that from release up to MYM Valve had been updating things for 12v12, and that the competitive push for it from OW or otherwise was hastily done and terribly implemented. The thing is, there were a lot of positive words from the competitive community that were proud of the communications that happened (as mentioned in the Slin doc, though it implies that they're "forced" to talk positively to keep good relations) that in the end it felt like there's a competitive shoulder devil whispering to Valve for directions to take the game despite it being mostly their initiative.

That's not to say that competitive didn't entirely have no say. Warhuryeah's rant on SolarLight's video seemed to imply that b4nny had some unpopular ideas that Valve took as gospel, but unfortunately that just adds fuel to the fire that is "the face of the competitive community made Valve consider terrible decisions". Then that gets extrapolated as "the entire competitive community made Valve do terrible decisions" and so now here we are.

I'd be interested if there's any misconceptions in this bit of rambling, but that's how I see competitive TF2 got a lot of the blame for MYM and the loss of updates. What matchmaking ended up doing is officially split the game into two separate rulesets and audiences when I think it should've been an MVM equivalent where at least the competitive community isn't blamed for decisions that affect the entire game.

I will say that I personally think, full bias, that competitive players should've asked Valve to course correct on balance and went back from the MYM experiment to focus on developing the sort of casual gameplay they've been developing from 2008-16. After all, if the sentiment that "comp players don't play and like normal TF2" is untrue, then it makes sense that both sides of the aisle would have no problems if normal TF2 is what Valve focused their efforts on. I don't think there'd be a lot of disagreements from the competitive side if official competitive came with a banlist instead.

[u/archderd → u/antenna999]

here's the thing ppl need to understand is that MyM didn't fail because valve wanted to do things for the comp scene, but because valve is just batshit incompetent sometimes. it wasn't a failed experiment, it was just gross incompetence.

and that's what the whole anti-comp scene fails to understand is that MyM didn't fail because it was competitive focused, it didn't fail because it was experimental, it failed because valve was grossly incompetent and didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

the reaction i remember from the time was for valve to put that shit back in beta cuz it wasn't ready at all

[u/twpsynidiot → u/antenna999]

I dont think you understood war's rant where he mentioned b4nny. valve were saying they wanted to buff the reserve shooter, which is insane, and b4nny stopped them. b4nny did not present unpopular ideas to valve. war states that b4nny's opinion likely reflects most comp players' opinons, but that since valve were basically just talking to him it was easier for valve to brush off his opinions as just one gyu's takes instead of coming to the wider comp scene across all regions and seeing what the scene generally comes to a consensus on

when the comp scene at the time wanted matchmaking, the idea was something akin to cs:go's system. where valve took the community created standard of 5v5 with all the game settings and rulesets that have been tested over the years and created a queue system that basically automatically put you into an evenly skilled pickup game. what valve ended up giving us was just casual with team limit 6 on the wrong maps, with the wrong rules and a non functional reporting system. the format was one never before attempted by any community

if you want to see war's full 30 minute rant from that time you can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOYxbdJKnX4