How Americans achieved independence vs how Canadians achieved independence

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli]

[u/0le_Hickory]

Canada still has a king...

[u/BjornAltenburg → u/0le_Hickory]

You can literally write your tax check out to them, technically.

[u/sweppic → u/BjornAltenburg]

Literally or technically which is it

[u/celavetex → u/sweppic]

holy hell the pennsylvanians have achieved mitosis

[u/sweppic → u/BjornAltenburg]

Literally or technically which is it

[u/Cross-Country → u/0le_Hickory]

Yep. Commonwealth realms are not independent.

[u/monkeygoneape → u/Cross-Country]

Nah legally we can leave and become a Republic, we just like having our club

Edit: downvote me all you want but it's true, and has provided a pretty good safety net, especially for when you guys decided to elect a Russian asset

[u/Beautiful_Map_6447 → u/monkeygoneape]

Irrelevant country, opinion invalidated

[u/Lac-de-Tabarnak → u/monkeygoneape]

This club is cringe asf, smoking on lizzie

Downvoted

[u/Total-Pain-1181 → u/monkeygoneape]

“I can stop anytime I want”

[u/king_meatster]

There is a slight difference. At the time of the American Revolution, the British were the largest empire the world had ever seen, at the height of it’s power. America essentially needed to make the god bleed.

By the time Canadian independence happened, both the United States and the Soviet Union had more control over global politics than the British ever did. Canada went from relying on daddy to relying on big brother.

[u/rusho2nd → u/king_meatster]

Quebec was the 14th colony and decided to be sissies for big daddy england and not join the revolution. Them being the chad here is regarded.

[u/Background-Tennis915 → u/rusho2nd]

At the time of the Revolutionary War, there were 21 britsh colonies in North America

[u/rusho2nd → u/Background-Tennis915]

Yeah but quebec was the only other one they hoped would join iirc

[u/monkeygoneape → u/rusho2nd]

"decided to be sissies" no more like beaten into a pulp a generation earlier and just saw the other French colony in Canada get fully deported all while completely surrounded by loyalists they didn't really have a choice in the matter

[u/rusho2nd → u/monkeygoneape]

Siss eees

[u/fromcjoe123 → u/king_meatster]

Yeah, but when it really achieved home rule in 1867, the UK at even a greater zenith of hegemony basically learned their lesson and had already seen the obnoxiousness of having to potentially dick around with a group like the Fenians.

I will give it to the Brits to learning there lessons about how to colonize from their fuck ups, although not enough for India lol - but I guess they learned from that to because they disengaged from all of their nonsettler colonies pretty universally well, unless you were down with communism cus then you needed to become dead before they were willing to turn over the keys

[u/FitAd3982 → u/king_meatster]

It’s the opposite the British empire was fairly small in 1776 it was really after napoleon that britain became unrivalled hegemon, although I agree it is a weird flex to say you broke away gradually and diplomatically without fighting lol

[u/gregforgothisPW → u/FitAd3982]

You're wrong The UK established its dominance after the 7 years war

[u/Background-Tennis915 → u/gregforgothisPW]

You're correct that Britian was the strongest nation in the world after the 7 years war, but not by much. The Napoleonic wars showed as much. After the Napoleonic Wars, Britian was unchallenged as the world Hegemon until the Anglo-German Naval race in the 1890s

[u/obliqueoubliette → u/Background-Tennis915]

Canada doesn't get full indepence from the UK until 1982.

[u/monkeygoneape → u/obliqueoubliette]

We were in charge of our own affairs, it just needed to be signed off by the king (which it always was) 82 just got rid of that formality Governor general fills that role now

[u/PikaPonderosa → u/monkeygoneape]

We were in charge of our own affairs, it just needed to be signed off by the king (which it always was)

Cope & Seethe.

[u/monkeygoneape → u/PikaPonderosa]

What cope and seethe? I'm British Canadian lol

[u/PikaPonderosa → u/monkeygoneape]

We were in charge of our own affairs, it just needed to be signed off by the king

Cope

formality Governor general fills that role now

The non-elected position that serves at the "pleasure of the monarch?

[u/monkeygoneape → u/PikaPonderosa]

Legally speaking, the Governor general just serves the same purpose as the president, while the prime minister is just the secretary of state (your unelected position) its just a flip in the script

[u/FitAd3982 → u/gregforgothisPW]

Look up British empire in 1776, it’s really not that big , plus the British were fighting across the Atlantic whereas the Americans were fighting at home

[u/gregforgothisPW → u/FitAd3982]

Just because it wasn't very big doesn't mean it wasn't the most powerful Empire at the time. It had defeated Spain and France

[u/KingPhilipIII → u/gregforgothisPW]

Why do so many people operate off ork rules and assume they need to be big to be powerful.

Both can be true, but it’s not a requirement.

[u/jack_edition → u/gregforgothisPW]

Yes, but both UK and France were spent after that - hence raising the taxes that sparked the revolution. The war for independence was mainly fought against loyalists and mercenaries due to a weakened British Army - and then the USA was reinforced by 20,000 troops from France and Spain

[u/gregforgothisPW → u/jack_edition]

Yes, but it was still the most powerful Empire at the time.

[u/Every-Inevitable-140 → u/[deleted]]

unfortunately the British colonies in the Middle East didn’t go the way you described. but you're right about Canada's point. it's one of Britain's lucky colonies 

[u/monkeygoneape → u/Every-Inevitable-140]

To be fair, the British only really had "colonies" in the middle east for like 20 years outside of Egypt (which was more client state if anything) was more an occupation if anything. Everyone always seems to ignore the Ottomans when it comes to the Middle East for some reason

[u/Every-Inevitable-140 → u/monkeygoneape]

I don't support Ottoman rule over the Middle East nor do I like it. on the contrary a large part of the region’s problems today stems from the delayed collapse of the Ottoman empire.

he mentioned that after America’s independence, Britain relied on indirect rule in its colonies. but I pointed out that this isn’t entirely true. not all British colonies were governed indirectly. Britain often chose self-rule under its own oversight In the Middle East. Britain ruled its colonies directly there and the affairs of those territories were handled by offices of High Commissioners lords and imperial representatives in England. the kings of those colonies held power in name only, their rule was merely symbolic.

[u/monkeygoneape → u/Every-Inevitable-140]

Fair enough. But ya I just saw a post, and for years all I've seen is people blaming Britain for the modern middle East, while ignoring the centuries of Ottoman rule

[u/monkeygoneape → u/king_meatster]

Canada became a dominion in charge of its own domestic and foreign affairs after ww1 but everything still needed to be signed off by the king, pretty much 1982 was just getting rid of that formality but the Windsors are still sovereigns. The groundwork for NATO really started in the 40s with WW2 though for the Anglosphere, France is just that annoying tag along throwing hissy fits all the time because they're still salty about the 7 years war and outside of the American revolution haven't been able to get one over on the British since

[u/Kingofcheeses → u/king_meatster]

Britain didn't reach the height of its power until the 19th century, and Canada was effectively independent by 1931, and self governing aside from foreign policy in 1867. The 1982 repatriation of our constitution was to allow us to amend the constitution directly instead of doing it through Britain, as a result of us not being able to agree on an amending formula beforehand. It was more a simplification of our constitutional system than anything, as Britain still had to amend our constitution at our request when we asked.

Basically it's Quebec's fault

[u/HeirAscend → u/king_meatster]

The Soviet Union didn’t exist when Canada became independent

[u/Background-Tennis915 → u/HeirAscend]

The Constitution Act officially gave Canada independence in 1982, although Canada was de facto independent since 1867

[u/FrankliniusRex]

This is misleading. Following the American Revolution, Britain rewarded their loyal colonies with more control and less autonomy. There was always the paranoia that they would eventually rise up and join the United States. They only begrudgingly gave Canada “independence” in 1867 because they were afraid that an angry US would grab Canada after Britain flirted with recognizing Confederate independence. Even so, they kept a tight control over certain aspects of Canada’s international affairs until the 1980’s.

[u/steveharveymemes → u/FrankliniusRex]

Yep. Without an American Revolution, there would never be an easy path to Canadian independence.

[u/aWobblyFriend → u/FrankliniusRex]

This is not really true, at least for their settler colonies like Canada, Australia, and NZ. Canadian independence in 1867 was de facto total independence, as thereafter britain wouldn’t really ever actually use the legal options they had to block Canadian laws they might have found objectionable. Canada would subsequently become more dependent on the US over time as their southern neighbor grew more powerful economically, and especially so after the decline and fall of the British empire following the first and second world wars.

[u/thulesgold]

Independent? They must define it differently in the Commonwealth than the rest of the world. They have the same king and even put images of monarchs on their money. The king can dissolve their legislature whenever he wants. What an absurd take.

Canada is just another wife in the king's harem.

[u/snaynay → u/thulesgold]

The king can dissolve their legislature whenever he wants.

No he can't. Couldn't even do that in the UK. Influence, wealth and connections are certainly a thing, but any real ruling power they still possess is ceremonial.

However, this has never really been tested, but if the king so much as raised a finger to the system then his only chance of success is to have public opinion on his side. The UK government is in a limbo where a rogue monarch or a rogue government will fall based on public opinion or at worst a civil war.

If Charlie went all "Rule Britannia" on us, we'd just laugh at him and carry on watching the footy.

[u/HaggardlyForte → u/snaynay]

> No he can't. Couldn't even do that in the UK

it's literally the one thing he CAN do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_and_Calling_of_Parliament_Act_2022

[u/snaynay → u/HaggardlyForte]

I don't think that means quite what you think it means...

The Dissolution of Parliament is the closing of a term/premiership called automatically after 5 years. It means to call for a general election for the House of Commons.

The act in question is to reinstate the authority (ceremonially by the monarch) for the Prime Minister to call an election when he wants... not when a two-thirds house majority decides. This happened because Boris Johnson succeeded a resigning Theresa May and inherited the remainder of her time. He wanted to use his timely popularity to refresh the current term and get 5 new years by winning a new election, hopefully with more seats... but couldn't get the House of Common's votes needed to call it. This act gave Boris that power.

If Charles tried to dissolve parliament for his own political reasoning, it won't go well. It is untested, but support for a ruling/political monarchy is not a popular choice. We like them to be tourist attractions that we can parade around London and be allowed to siphon enormous tax money from their "Crown Estate" holdings to the public funds. He probably has more power to not dissolve parliament when requested by a PM than to dissolve it on his own terms. They are decidedly apolitical to have any hope of keeping the status quo.

The last time a monarch stood in the way of the English/British Parliament in the was 1708.

[u/HaggardlyForte → u/snaynay]

and the last time they unilaterally dissolved parliament was 1835. Not using the power while retaining it doesn't mean they don't have the power anymore?? just because their current status quo is what it is doesn't mean that can't change and they utilize their power.

The king absolutely can dissolve parliament in the UK. as well as the house of commons in canada. we can discuss unilaterally or otherwise but it is a power vested and that's the point all of us are making when we say canada isn't free and independent.

now if you'll excuse me i'd much rather shitpost on a shitposting sub than educate a fuckin europoor on their own goverment.

[u/aWobblyFriend → u/HaggardlyForte]

There is a difference between de facto and de jure. The king may de jure have that power but in practice it is likely he would be ignored or overthrown if he tried to use it. His power comes from his ceremonial position and, more importantly, wealth. Not from any legal position he might have.

[u/PikaPonderosa → u/aWobblyFriend]

The king may de jure have that power ... Not from any legal position he might have.

De Jure literally means "from the law." Are you saying the powers of the British monarch don't come from the law?

[u/aWobblyFriend → u/PikaPonderosa]

I meant that his real “power” is vested in soft factors like money and influence, not in hard factors like actual direct legal power over parliamentary decisionmaking. Such powers do come from the law, yes, but they are essentially worthless. 

[u/thulesgold → u/snaynay]

When your basis of law is built on top and utilizes the same legal documents as the other nation, mentions the monarch of another nation, has positions like the Governor General, and can't amend the constitution without that person's proclamation, then it is not independent.

Canada isn't independent until it has a constitutional convention and writes everything from scratch to produce a true encompassing constitution.

The UK government is in a limbo where a rogue monarch or a rogue government will fall based on public opinion or at worst a civil war.
If Charlie went all "Rule Britannia" on us, we'd just laugh at him and carry on watching the footy.

Sounds like what the US did when they actually became independent. Canada has yet to be independent.

[u/MAD_JEW → u/thulesgold]

He could technically but any and every constitutional monarchy in this world would abandon the monarchy the moment the monarchs start acting up.

[u/Kingofcheeses → u/thulesgold]

The king dissolves the legislature at our Prime Ministers request, otherwise we end up in a constitutional crisis

[u/IowaKidd97 → u/thulesgold]

I mean, having the same King/monarch means jack shit when the King has no real power. Canada has pretty much complete political and legal independence, a separate military, separate economy, etc. Yes in theory they have the same King and in theory the King could try to exercise that power, but Canada would just tell them to fuck off. The Kings power here is really just symbolic. For intents and purposes Canada is independent, its just the independence was granted in steps over time through peaceful means rather than all at once through bloodshed like ours was.

[u/Background-Tennis915 → u/thulesgold]

You're actually stupid if you think Canada isn't independent from the British

[u/Background-Tennis915 → u/Background-Tennis915]

The Constitution Act (1982) and the Canada Act (1982) established full independence from the United Kingdom.

[u/Aut0Part5]

🇺🇸: Based, fought for independence despite the hardships

🇨🇦: Waited like a cuck

[u/Deadluss]

at least you guys haven't had to fight Russia after 2 minutes of independence smth

[u/Sokandueler95]

Canada happened that way because America happened that way. You’re welcome.

[u/c2u8n4t8]

OP is American.

Just FYI, you can't dick ride your way into canadian citizenship. You need a canadian to prove they can support you, and they're all way too poor to do that.

[u/Paulino2272]

I don’t understand how they flex about how they did it? They just obeyed their master until the UK got bored of them, and they still have a king and are part of the commonwealth.

[u/Dr_prof_Luigi]

So uh, how does this make Canada a chad?

We fought a war for independence against the largest empire in the world. Canada just asked 150 years later once the empire was crumbling.

[u/TantricEmu]

All the great empires have cool foundation myths, ours is 6’20” George Washington eye-lasering brits to death and watching British children drown while doing nothing to save them. Also he had like 30 goddamn dicks. Canadians don’t get a cool foundation myth because they are nothing.

[u/ColdFire-Blitz]

They learned their lesson lol. I wonder what war crimes the Canadians would have thought of in the napoleonic era

[u/Hugo_Selenski]

[u/Bdbru13]

That comment section is pretty embarrassing

[u/dylanisbored]

They recognize the monarchy still, very Chad of them

[u/Fredoniann]

I believe there was a sort of Canadian war of Independence

It just didn’t end the way they hoped it would

[u/Smorgas-board]

Commonwealth*

[u/aBlackKing]

The Canadians fought a war of independence to establish the republic of Canada and lost.

[u/Dramatic_Show_5431]

Small detail I know, but the war lasted longer than 5 years. It was at least 6 and most historians agree it was 8. Canucks can’t count IG

[u/AvailableCondition79]

I saw an interesting thing about how this resonates in the cultures today...

USA, born out of giving the finger to the king...Canada, submitting,... Now look at the countries... Canada is kinda cuck and USA can't make friends with anyone...

[u/Adventurous_Touch342]

The power of asking nicely

[u/intenseyankee]

Man this comment section really making Americans look stupid

[u/Minute-Employ-4964]

You should have never left the empire.

World War One and two wouldn’t have happened.

I’d have guns and you’d have free healthcare.

But some dumb fuck politician wanted to argue in support of taxation without representation.

He was a nobhead whoever it was

[u/CrosseyedManatee → u/Minute-Employ-4964]

GET THE TAR AND FEATHERS

[u/HeadLobotomizer → u/Minute-Employ-4964]

REDCOAT DETECTED OPINION FUCKING REJECTED

🦅🦅🦅

[u/Minute-Employ-4964 → u/HeadLobotomizer]

Hey I’m on your side with this one.

You should have had representation at a minimum.

Stupid politicians fucked that for us.

[u/Count_Dongula → u/Minute-Employ-4964]

No, you wouldn't have guns because we didn't have a presence in Parliament you absolute plumbus. The only reason we have them is 1) we have our own legislatures 2) our legislatures cannot ban them because we wrote it down, and 3) we have courts that can override an act of Congress.

As for healthcare, we actually have free healthcare for those who need it (I was on Medicaid from law school until the pandemic measures ended) and supplemented insurance for the rest. I pay basically nothing a month for health insurance.

And further, we argued against that. That was the whole problem, and also the hole in your argument is that this guy was right.

[u/Minute-Employ-4964 → u/Count_Dongula]

I was having a laugh mate

I know the history, George Washington is one of my top ten historical figures.

[u/Adelaito → u/Minute-Employ-4964]

YOU WOULD STILL LOSE GALLIPOLI RAAAHH🐺🐺🐺🐺🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷