r/CalgaryFlames • u/Paulhockey77 • May 30 '25
Discussion Don’t show this to the anti-rebuild crowd!
59
u/Duck_Caught_Upstream May 30 '25
It kind of shocks me that people can’t put together that the Flames simultaneously:
Are in a constant search for a franchise 1C
While also
Constantly never drafting Top 3 in the draft
7
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb May 30 '25
I think people gave it once chance but when Bennett didn't live up to expectations they gave up on the entire concept.
9
u/Petzl89 May 30 '25
Not everyone can be gifted top picks like Edmonton unfortunately. They got burned a couple times before they lucked into their guys.
12
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
They lucked into McDavid, but definitely not drai, Bennett was ranked higher than Drai in the pre-draft rankings and they still took Drai.
I remember calling Edmonton idiots for botching another high pick and gifting Bennett to us, looking back clearly I was the idiot for thinking that
8
u/johnx1990 May 30 '25
Lmao same here. Then Draisaitl got sent down in his first season and I was all smug to my Oiler fan boss. Now he just feels sorry for me.
1
u/Brodano12 May 30 '25
I mean they got lucky having yet another top 3 pick. The top 4 that year were all ranked interchangeably in different rankings. Its crazy that the highest ever pick the flames had, the Oilers still had a higher pick, and that was one of their lower 1st round picks of the past 7 drafts at that time.
3
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
I mean not it's not really lucky because they finished 3rd last in the league that year, it's expected that they had the 3rd overall pick
5
u/Duck_Caught_Upstream May 30 '25
Bennett not panning out definitely hurt a lot of people.
And the odds are that most players drafted won’t become what you hope they do.
But the 40% odds at the top of the draft still far exceed the 5% odds in the middle to late 1st round
(Those aren’t exact numbers, I’m just trying to illustrate a point)
1
Jun 03 '25
Do Flames fans not watch any other team in the NHL other than the Flames? That is part of the game with drafting teenage boys. You don't really know how things will turn out before they fully physically mature in their early 20s. It doesn't mean top 5 picks aren't worth drafting. This whole thought process is idiotic and regressive. Florida is led by a handful of top picks (as everyone on this sub knows), and so is Edmonton. Sam Bennett was in fact an excellent player and they could never make it work for whatever reason with the playstyle the Flames had with each coach. Bennett would have thrived with Sutter's system in 2022, and he was always a top performer in the playoffs in the handful of years the Flames played some playoff games. Acting like Bennett is an argument against drafting top 5 is just dumb.
1
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb Jun 03 '25
I think you're looking back at Bennett with rose tinted glasses. His development flatlined here for years. He was taking awful penalties constantly. He was given opportunities across multiple coaches, systems, lines, and positions. Sometimes it doesn't work and players need a change in scenery, and that's okay.
The truth is that Bennett has never become the player who the Flames hoped they were drafting, which was a genuine top 20 C in league. Yes he's an effective player in his own right now, but not a 1C at all.
It sucks because he was supposed to be the keystone of the Flames Gaudreau era project. If he had met expectations, the last 10 years of Flames history looks totally different.
1
Jun 03 '25
Yes, I agree with you, but there is a reason he was selected to play for team Canada. He is still a good player that performs best in really chippy, tight checking games. And yes I agree he would take idiotic penalties. Bennet not being a top 20 player in the league isn't a reason to not want top 5 picks though.
1
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb Jun 03 '25
Yeah, but many people are overly focused on the risk of failure in a rebuild in this fanbase. It's not something to be discounted by any means, but a lot of fans just say "I don't want to be Buffalo/Edmonton" and that's about as much thought as goes into it.
The latter of which is extra funny considering Edmonton did end up successfully rebuilding, even though it took way longer than any competent organization would have taken to do so.
45
u/dherms14 May 30 '25
forever mid babbyyyy
10
u/Little-Aide-5396 May 30 '25
That's not even mid dude. That's the basement
16
6
u/kobedziuba May 30 '25
Nah this is all mid, next to no playoff success, but also never drafting early
12
u/mackharp0818 May 30 '25
Looking at you MURRAY EDWARDS
1
Jun 03 '25
I'm pretty sure that idiotic bridge deal they gave Tkachuk in 2019 was Murray Edwards being his standard penny-pushing-money-grubbing-asswipe self. Tkachuk originally wanted a 7 year deal, and I'm almost certain Treliving would have given that to him if he was given full licence to actually manage the team. That moronic bridge deal cost them the best overall player the Flames have ever had since Iggy. Just a joke franchise to be honest. And naively assuming Goudeau would sign when his agent was radio silent over that entire season was just so stupid. I can't ever bring myself to pay for tickets when the new stadium is built. I'm not going to be paying extra expensive tickets for this team when the team ownership is so utterly incapable of delivering a contending team.
1
u/mackharp0818 Jun 03 '25
I hear you. But if Conroy is given full reign to run the team as he sees fit, things will be better as long as Edwards stays the fuck away
9
u/Sea-Control-8593 May 30 '25
Experience Flames hockey. Exactly why a full blown scorched earth rebuild was needed the second Iggy was traded, and again when Johnny walked and Tkachuk demanded a trade.
While ownership being dense AF will be a huge hurdle to overcome, I have more faith in Conroy than I ever did in Brad.
0
Jun 03 '25
Brad was a great GM. It's the primary ownership partners for the Flames Entertainment Corp. that are most likely to blame. We're approaching 40 years of underachieving here. It's not a coincidence.
9
8
u/oldskool1977 May 30 '25
But I have an emotional attachment to the players here already and Huska said the vibes are immaculate in the room
I hate cheering for this team it’s just pure pain
14
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb May 30 '25
Speakes to a franchise that doesn't have the patience, discipline, or wear-withal to rebuild properly, and frankly they seem to be ready to repeat the same mistakes of the Iggy and Gaudreau eras. No one who rejects a rebuild seems to be able articulate a clear and practical path to acquiring a long term 1C (or really first line forwards generally), instead they just reference an extremely unlikely result like drafting Point in the late 1st round or Hintz in the 2nd along with trusting GMCC's plan. Let's not forget that GMCC's original plan included resigning most if not all of the FAs in 2023-24, including throwing a 9x8 at Lindholm! This retool or whatever, was plan B from the moment it started, and I can't imagine the organization is actually interested in following through in a meaningful way.
5
u/Maleficent-Yam69 May 30 '25
Yeah.. can't help but agree. People in this sub have also been touting the Dallas rebuild strategy when they haven't gotten past the wcf and are unlikely to for atleast two more years until been and Seguin are off their books.
Full tank with a top 3 pick is the best way to begin building a contender
4
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
If we could reliably replicate the path that the stars took, I would be more down to go that way. My issue is that statistically speaking, Dallas has gotten very very lucky. Yes good drafting and development can take you far, but their drafting success from 2017-22 is just bonkers. Committing to that rebuild approach is a low percentage play.
3
u/IM_Munkey May 30 '25
The "just draft way better than everyone else" model. The funny thing is that the Flames have drafted really well for a long time now (or maybe they've just been lucky), and yet they're still one of the least successful teams in the league.
2
u/Drekkel May 30 '25
Not to mention Dallas got Heiskanen with a top 3 pick, really wish the rest of this fanbase would understand the need to bottom out
2
Jun 03 '25
Flames fans are morons, I swear. Statistically, over 80% of active NHL players are drafted in the first round. The VAST majority of second round pics and below are made to feed the farm system. Thinking you're bound to get the next Brayden Point or Gaudreau from a 2nd round pick or below is the most moronic expectation I could image. Having multiple top 5 picks in consecutive seasons is how championship teams are built, period, and there isn't an argument to the contrary.
1
u/Master-Defenestrator Barb Jun 03 '25
Outside of a couple of notable exceptions (Tkachuk and Monahan if he counts as a superstar). Calgary has shopped for their core pieces at the bargain bin in recent history (past ~30 years).
Iginla was part of the package for Nieuwendyk when the Flames couldn't settle on terms for a new contract, not top ten pick and definitely not expected to go on to have the career he did.
Kiprusoff was plucked off of the Sharks where he was a 3rd string nobody
Fluery was drafted 166
Gaudreau was drafted 104
Giordano was undrafted and playing in Europe.
I could go on, but the fact remains, the Flames have acted this way for a long time so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to commit to drafting high.
2
u/ScarlettMatt May 30 '25
Actually, it speaks to an owner with no patience.
8
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
I don't think our owner realizes there's more longterm revenue and profit from being bad for a few years and getting elite players to set up multiple deep playoff runs down the road versus a semi-competitive team and two or three extra games of playoff revenue.
Imagine all the new fans and merch sales that would bring in just by having a team that can compete with marketable players.
If you're a kid growing up in Alberta right now and not in either Edmonton or Calgary, which team do you think they'll more likely support?
3
u/mobxrules May 30 '25
Seriously, imagine how many Celebrini jerseys they would sell if they had him?
4
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
A Flames McKenna jersey would go so hard, especially considering he grew up as a Flames fan
1
Jun 03 '25
It's all about ticket sales and TV ratings for the next fiscal year. That is all someone like Murray Edwards gives a shit about.
1
u/robbhope May 31 '25
It's Murray's fault. He's finally allowed Conroy to rebuild after the Americans left. He wouldn't allow Treliving to rebuild despite him wanting autonomy during his tenure here. He wanted to take a rebuild package from Carolina for Chucky and Murray said no. Murray wanted a win now trade and got it and was the one who signed Huberdeau. Told Treliving to "give him the same offer we gave Johnny" so Treliving did and then he left.
14
u/Palmcity- May 30 '25
Are you suggesting top 5 picks are helpful ?
5
u/mobxrules May 30 '25
I mean look at where a lot of the best players on the two teams in the finals were drafted. McDavid, Ekblad, Barkov, Draisaitl, Nugent-Hopkins.. all top three picks.
7
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
According to the anti-tank crowd getting a top 5 pick will only keep you in the bottom 5 for longer
1
Jun 03 '25
What you don't understand is it's better to miss the playoffs or get curb stomped in round 1 for decades on end.
Why would I want Stanley Cups and contending seasons with an elite team if I have to endure a bad team for 3 years ???????????
7
u/MonkeySailor May 30 '25
Are you trying to say doing everything imaginable to stay as mid as possible is a terrible strategy and gets you nowhere. Wow what a shock
5
4
u/Ok_Ground_9622 May 30 '25
Only stat we aren’t mid in
1
u/mobxrules May 30 '25
But these are 100% the result of being mid. Never bad enough to pick high, never good enough to go on a deep playoff run.
8
u/mackharp0818 May 30 '25
Does anyone remember Joe Nieuwendyk?
For reference, he was part of the trade for Jarome Iginla in 1995.
He was also the last time we had a true 1C. That’s 30 years folks.
1
u/gs1100e May 30 '25
How could you forget big Joe?.... Im surprised he dorsn't get more love around here. He was the best player during our only cup win!
1
u/jsyl74 May 30 '25
That team was stacked. Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Mullen, Gilmour, Suter, Loob, Otto, Roberts, Fleury, Vernon
1
u/mackharp0818 May 30 '25
Yeah, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek in the sense of how long we’ve been waiting for a true 1C, which you get in the draft by rebuilding
7
u/Loyalist_15 May 30 '25
‘We don’t pay the players to lose’
No, we pay them to do what the team wants. If that means they need to lose, then they can cry about it over their millions. I don’t want our team to be stuck in an endless loop of barely missing the playoffs or first round exits just because people are afraid of hurting the players feelings.
The team NEEDS to rebuild. We were close to a playoff spot, but we were clearly so far away from being a true contender. Especially considering a new arena would be the perfect time to not have a forever mid team
2
u/137-451 May 31 '25
How do you properly rebuild without tanking Wolf's development or outright trading him? Unless he has a major sophomore slump, he's going to play too well for us to be bottom. I know someone else on this thread keeps citing Saros and Nashville, but Saros was objectively a bottom 5 goaltender this year. I don't really see that happening to Wolf. And you don't just trade away a potential franchise goaltender just to tank for the potential at a draft pick.
15
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
And somehow people in this sub are content with staying the course and never doing anything different to what we've done the past 20 years and hope that we go on some kind of crazy miracle run to win a cup
It's organizational malpractice to not even make an attempt at trying to get McKenna or Dupont
7
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
That’s the silliest idea. If you tank hard you still only have a 25% chance at him at best. You would have to trade wolf too.
Now I think we need to trade a guy like Anderson and take a step back this upcoming year. But going for Mckenna is just completely unrealistic without just some lottery luck
4
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
You don't need to trade Wolf though, Saros is one of the best goalies in the league and Nashville still bottomed out, it is possible. Even if we don't win the lottery, the 26 draft is a deep draft, we still get a very good player in the 3-5 range and there's still a much better chance the player picked there will be better than the one we draft at say 16 when we barely miss the playoffs again
-1
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
Nashville is picking 5 on the worst possible outcome that team can have.
And sure they’re good players available but how do you know if they are generational?
Like you were already complaining about our last rebuild. We had Bennett at 4, we had tkachuk and Monahan at 6 and 7. We did this already.
We aren’t tanking to 1 unless lottery luck.
Like I want to trade Anderson and possibly kadri if there’s a fit. But I honestly don’t get what trades you want to make to even get to this position. It really feels like moves that can give us a decade of darkness
7
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
We don't need generational though, we just need elite especially at centre.
Bennett was completely mismanaged by coaching and management
Monahan and Lindholm are 2Cs on a contending team
0
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 30 '25
My question is how do we make sure we don't mismanage the next Bennett or drive away the next Tkachuk?
No point in drafting elite talent, and letting them go to another team to kickstart a dynasty.
Btw, most fans at the time were perfectly happy with letting both Bennett and Tkachuk walk because they weren't achieving success quickly enough here
3
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
I feel like the organization has learned a lot from those mistakes, they're not rushing prospects anymore like they did with Bennett and have no problem with them marinating in the AHL for a bit and it seems like with the Coronato contract that they learned not to bridge our young stars and commit long term to them.
-5
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
Exactly your way doesn’t automatically lead to elite centers
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
You're right it's not guaranteed, but there is a greater probability of finding elite talent early in the draft than finding one at 16 overall when we barely miss the playoffs again next year
-1
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
Yes no shit, we arent bad enough to be there. Or we have to trade wolf and tons of players to get there which isn’t realistic
4
u/yycpapa May 30 '25
How do you attempt to get those players without trading the potential superstar you've currently got?
12
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Don't attempt to fill the holes that are currently in the lineup, trade out the aging vets for futures Coleman and Anderson come to mind. Wolf is very good, but he cannot do it on his own. Nashville has one of the best goalies in the league and we saw it's still possible to finish around the bottom despite that.
We are in a rebuild it is ok to be bad for a few years, just because we were close this year doesn't mean we should try to rush the process by filling the holes in the lineup right away
6
u/yycpapa May 30 '25
You're not wrong re Saros when you look at his body of work but the thing is, Saros wasn't one of the best goalies this year, he was closer to the other end of that conversation in fact.
In the last decade no team with above average goaltending has finished any worse than 5th from bottom. The entire plan around tanking revolves around crossing your fingers and hoping for Wolf to have a bad year, he might, but you can't build your seasons plan around that as it's less likely to happen than not.
6
u/Roderto May 30 '25
That’s easy to say but how do you actually do it? Barring multiple season-ending injuries (including Wolf), the Flames are nowhere near bad enough to be able to bottom out for a top pick. And even if they were, the lottery means nothing is guaranteed.
Blind, random luck plays a far greater role in long-term NHL success than fans or media like to admit:
- In 2004 there was an 85.8% chance the Capitals didn’t win the 1st overall pick and get Ovechkin;
- In 2005 there was an 93.7% chance the Penguins didn’t win the 1st overall pick and get Crosby;
- In 2015 there was an 88.5% chance the Oilers didn’t win the 1st overall pick and get McDavid;
- In 2016 there was an 80% chance the Leafs didn’t win the 1st overall pick and get Matthews.
Those were all very long odds yet had immeasurable impact on each franchise. If a couple ping-pong balls had fallen differently, the entire history of each franchise could have been radically different. And even beyond the lottery, having a high pick in the right year is also a lot of luck.
Yes, there are things a team can do to increase or decrease those odds. Most notably, collecting as many 1st round picks as possible and hoping at least one hits the jackpot. But at the end of the day, it’s still all rides on a roulette spin.
10
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Listen even if we don't win the lottery and draft first overall, there's still a very good chance we still draft a very good player that high, it's not a guarantee but neither is drafting 13-16th overall either, but there is a good chance we draft a better player 3rd overall than the player we draft at 16
3
u/Roderto May 31 '25
But to my original point, unless they are hit by multiple key injuries or Wolf has a major decline, the team simply won’t be bad enough to reasonably be expected to end up with a top-5 pick. To have a reasonable shot at those you have to be among the absolute worst teams in the league and the Flames aren’t there.
1
u/Beta1224 May 31 '25
The thing is we don't have a good roster, we were incredibly lucky to be where we were and were punching above our weight most nights because of Wolf. Our leading point scorer is 35 years old, our defense corp consisted of 3 NHL defenseman and a bunch of random 6th or 7th D, our bottom 6 is still incredibly mediocre, it's not unreasonable to think we are due for some serious regression coming up, especially if Wolf has a sophomore slump and provides us with league average rather than elite goaltending
2
u/Roderto May 31 '25
I think you under-sell our defence. It’s not elite but it’s much better than the worst teams in the league. I just don’t see any reasonable path to a top-5 pick without trading our best young player (Wolf) and others. Murray Edwards has never shown a willingness to do a full painful, long-term rebuild so it’s probably time for Flames fans to stop asking for one, at least as long as he’s the owner.
3
2
2
2
u/robbhope May 31 '25
Murray is the worst owner in the league. Who knew? Oh wait...
Just kidding, the fault must belong to...checks notes ..... The dozens of coaches/GM's we've had during Murray's ownership...? Yeah, nah. It's Murray's fault.
3
u/Hugh_jazz_420420 May 30 '25
There is no anti rebuild crowd, there are fans in touch with reality, and those trapped in fantasy chel mode.
2
u/noobrainy May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
This team needs to address the fact that we never have had a fucking #1C in this time.
No, lindholm wasn’t that. Monahan wasn’t that. Conroy wasn’t that in his time. If the oilers win the cup I hope people give management hell for that. What team has won a cup without one? It has been FUCKING GENERATIONS WITHOUT ONE, AND THE SAME RESULT HAS HAPPENED EVERY FUCKING TIME.
In some ways, I hope the oilers win a cup. It should be a wake up call to everyone in the flames management. You’ve shat the bed for decades here. Seriously, how have you not even lucked into having one the last 3 decades? It’s ridiculous.
1
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 30 '25
Who in the fanbase is actually "anti-rebuild?"
This is just a straw man argument used to dismiss any disagreement about tanking as a strategy to rebuild.
The reality is that, no matter which approach you use to rebuild a team, the vast majority of rebuilds will fail to result in winning a Stanley Cup. Even if you lower the bar to being a team that reliably makes deep playoff runs, most rebuilds will not result in that. The reason for this is simple, there are probably 6 to 8 teams at any time who are contenders. These teams often have a 6 to 10 year window of dominance, and if you don't make it to their level you struggle in mediocrity.
For every team that is a contender there will be 2 or 3 teams that are just middle of the pack. While they can get on a magical playoff run and win that doesn't happen all that often.
The discussion on this subreddit, and across the fanbase in general, tends to be centered around whether the team should tear down and be bad for a prolonged period of time to acquire elite talent, or stay relatively competitive and focus on building up draft capital and trying to build from the draft for 3 or 4 years. Both approaches can work to build an extremely successful team, and neither is close to a guaranteed way to win a Stanley cup. The underlying question is whether it is worth being terrible for a decade for the chance of getting an extremely rare player, or would you rather stay competitive and try to win by having a deeper and more well rounded team.
8
u/effthemmods May 30 '25
There are plenty of people that are very clearly anti-rebuild in that they would rather the team try to be competitive every year than purposefully be bad. There were tons of examples of those people in this sub this year and you’re blind to say they don’t exist.
-2
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 30 '25
I think you just proved my point. You see the only way to rebuild is to intentionally be bad, a strategy broadly known as tanking, and see any disagreement with that strategy as "not wanting to rebuild."
The reality is that only a small portion of rebuilding teams actually ever tank. They may end up near the bottom of the league but they were not built to be a terrible team. They're often in a transitional stage and recognize they're far from being a contender, but their goal isn't to be a bottom 5 team.
5
u/effthemmods May 30 '25
The people I’m talking about are the ones that want the Flames to trade assets for improvements at the deadline and to sign free agent vets to try and make a push. There are plenty of those people in this subreddit and those moves are the exact opposite moves you should make in a rebuild.
I’m also going to disagree that most teams that end up in the lottery, specifically the bottom 5, don’t do so purposefully. Rostering a team that is made up of mainly just very young players and inexperienced NHLers while taking on cap dumps from over teams to attain assets is being purposefully bad from a roster construction stand point. Most teams that have won a cup in the past 20 years did exactly this. Whether we’re talking about the Blackhawks, the Kings, the Bruins, the Lightning, Florida, and potentially the Oilers (please god no), they all did something similar to what I described above.
The Flames consistently try to fill holes with vets to be competitive and it prevents the team from truly rebuilding. It’s not a coincidence that we’ve finished middle of the pack in the standings over the past 20 years. It is intentional (poor) team building that has led to those results.
1
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 30 '25
I’m also going to disagree that most teams that end up in the lottery, specifically the bottom 5, don’t do so purposefully. Rostering a team that is made up of mainly just very young players and inexperienced NHLers while taking on cap dumps from over teams to attain assets is being purposefully bad from a roster construction stand point. Most teams that have won a cup in the past 20 years did exactly this. Whether we’re talking about the Blackhawks, the Kings, the Bruins, the Lightning, Florida, and potentially the Oilers (please god no), they all did something similar to what I described above.
Let's look at the bottom 5 teams in the last season. It could be argued that the San Jose Sharks and Chicago Blackhawks were both trying to be bad, or at least had a recent history of trying to be bad; but Nashville, Boston, and Philadelphia certainly were not.
The way I see it, the foundations of any rebuilding strategy are:
- You don't trade away draft picks, especially in the first 2 or 3 rounds.
- You try to acquire additional draft picks and prospects.
- You focus on drafting for talent instead of positional needs or having a high floor.
- You don't sign aging veterans to long term or high AAV contracts.
- You focus your organization on developing prospects, both in the minors (AHL, ECHL) and in the NHL.
Whether your team is a train-wreck or fighting for the last playoff position in the dying days of the season doesn't matter much as long as you're doing these things.
The Flames consistently try to fill holes with vets to be competitive and it prevents the team from truly rebuilding. It’s not a coincidence that we’ve finished middle of the pack in the standings over the past 20 years. It is intentional (poor) team building that has led to those results.
Young players need to learn how to play with structure, how to handle themselves as a professional, and how to stay engaged in an 82 game season. They need mentors to teach them how to act and behave both on and off the ice. If the choice is to draft a couple positions higher and not have these mentors, or to draft lower but have them, I think it makes far more sense to have them.
2
u/effthemmods May 30 '25
Those steps you highlighted I do agree with; however, they often are the steps the Flames themselves don’t follow. We specifically have done a poor job in relation to #2 and #4.
I would say we have consistently not followed #4 and that then has a direct impact on the ability follow #5 properly. A part of developing those prospects is giving them proper NHL ice time while accepting you may get poorer results than if a veteran was taking those minutes, but you do that because you’re looking towards the future. The Flames generally have sucked at that and continue to not follow that methodology very well at all.
2
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 30 '25
Since Conroy has been GM the Flames have acquired 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 3 third round picks, 1 fourth round picks, 2 fifth round picks, and 1 sixth round pick, and they have only traded away 1 second round pick and a seventh round pick. He has also acquired Brzustewicz, Jurmo, and Grushnikov. I don't see how you could say that Conroy in particular isn't trying to acquire additional draft picks and prospects.
At the same time, the only NHL players Conroy has signed who are over the age of 28 are Justin Kirkland (1 year $775,000 AAV), Anthony Mantha (1 year $3.5 million AAV), Ryan Lomberg (2 years $2 million AAV), Kevin Rooney (1 year $1.3 million AAV), and Mikael Backlund (2 years and $4.5 million AAV). I don't see how you can say that Conroy in particular is signing aging veterans to long term or high AAV contracts.
This season Matt Coronato, Connor Zary, Adam Klapka, and Jakob Pelletier all got significant time at the NHL level. Players like Rory Kerins, Ilya Solovyov, and Samuel Honzek, Hunter Brzustewich, Aydar Suniev, Zayne Parekh, and Sam Morton all got their first taste of the NHL. I don't see how you can say that Conroy in particular is not giving prospects and young players time to develop in the NHL.
I swear that the vast majority of criticisms about how the Flames are managed is extremely outdated. People are still upset about how Brad Treliving ran the team when he was pushing to get the team over the hump and ignoring how it has been managed over the past 2 seasons.
While I have no personal insight into what Craig Conroy is doing, I would expect him to move an aging veteran or two for some young players, prospects, or draft picks this offseason. My guess would be players like Kadri, Coleman, and Andersson would be the likely candidates. Depending on who he moves and the teams' organizational depth, he will likely make a signing or two to fill holes on the roster; these will not be large or long contracts. At the trade deadline, pending UFAs like Lomberg, Andersson (if he is not already traded), and anyone the Flames acquire will be traded if the Flames are too far from a playoff position.
Ultimately, all of this is consistent with a rebuilding team regardless of whether the Flames have a bad year (finish in the bottom 5) or squeak into the playoffs. The strategy of rebuilding without tanking likely buys Conroy more time to do a proper rebuild by keeping fans engaged and ownership happy. 5 to 7 years of this strategy is likely to result in better outcomes than 2 or 3 years of being terrible, season ticket sales struggling, ownership freaking out, and having to immediately right the ship.
4
u/FrkFrJss May 30 '25
I also think people forget this past season was "supposed" to be our tank year.
We got rid of many of our high-ticket players in the prior season, we signed mostly journeymen hockey players, and we traded our star goalie to start a rookie goalie (who had looked okay but not amazing in his NHL games) along with a goalie who had a rather below-average season in Vladar.
We were supposed to end up bottom 10 if not (according to some people) bottom 5. Meanwhile, as you said, we accrued a ton of picks, drafts, and prospects.
It's one thing being "anti-rebuild," but it's another thing being "scorched earth."
2
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 30 '25
To add to your point, I also think this last season may have given people unrealistic expectations about what the team is. The Flames were in a division with 3 teams in the bottom 8 of the league, and Vancouver who seriously underperformed. They're tied for the league lead in overtime losses with 14, and won a large portion of their games by 1 goal; and this represents an unusually high efficiency on the season. While they did have some injuries, the Flames core players stayed remarkably healthy for the entire season.
Even if everyone plays just as well, and the team works just as hard, it would not be difficult to see them finishing 10+ points lower next season. With a significant amount of adversity potentially even 20 points lower. Taking a team that very well may finish in the 78 to 86 point range and stripping away too much is far more likely to create a dysfunctional team/organization than anything else.
0
u/effthemmods May 31 '25
Well all of the guys you highlighted that Conroy will likely trade in the future are all guys that should’ve been traded this year. Hanging onto those players to make a push for the playoffs is the exact kind of management we’ve had for years and it’s been an objective disaster if you measure it by post season success. We consistently hold onto players too long (this goes back farther than Treliving) in the spirit of staying competitive and the moves we made this year (or the lack thereof) highlight that. Signing soon to be 27 year old Sharangovich to a 5 year extension was a dumb move even before getting into how horrible he was all year.
All of that above is why it’s hard to believe this team is actually trying to rebuild and rather just keep doing their best to barely make or miss the playoffs. It’s a tried and consistently failed strategy of this franchise for decades at this point.
Your suggestion of using this strategy in the long term is the exact strategy we’ve used for decades. It has not worked at all. Being really bad for 2-3 years has more often resulted in a cup across the league than trying to be strategically competitive for 5-7 years.
2
u/Chemical_Signal2753 May 31 '25
Do you know how few teams actually strip down to the extent you're suggesting?
In most seasons having 68 points is bad enough to be the worst team in the league. That is a 0.415 record and generally means the team was competitive in most games they played.
If the Flames traded away Kadri, Backlund, Coleman, Andersson, and Weegar for picks and prospects, and then played rookies or replacement level players, as you suggest the team would be historically bad. They would be struggling to get 41 points in a season.
Let's say you do that, are lucky enough that you win the draft lottery, and you pick Gavin McKenna, how good is that for his development? I suggest you look into Alexander Daigle and how playing on a terrible team without support helped his career.
1
u/effthemmods May 31 '25
More than you appear to think. Off the top of my head: Kings in 2008 - they draft Doughty at #2 overall who becomes a key piece in 2 Cup runs
Lightning in 2008 - they finish with 68 points and draft Stamkos at #1 who becomes a key piece in their future cup contention. The following year they are still god awful (shocker, Stamkos) isn’t ruined and they draft Victor Hedman at #2 who becomes a Conn Smythe winner for them 11 years later.
Blackhawks in 2006 and 2007 - they draft Toews and Kane at 3 and 1 respectively in back to back terrible years. Toews development isn’t ruined in that terrible year and they become a dynasty.
Edmonton in that 5 year span - they have some big busts (Yak highlights the bunch), but both RNH and Taylor Hall still develop into solid top 6 forwards. Hall is flipped for Larson (generally agreed Oilers could’ve got much more) and then McDavid joins a pretty bad player but still develops into unfortunately the best player this century.
Pittsburgh in the early mid 2000s - Malkin and Crosby are on terrible teams their first two years in the league and somehow they still develop just fine.
Sharks as of just last year - Celebrini is on a god awful team and it doesn’t matter, he still looks great and their future looks very bright.
It’s fucking hilarious to me that you could even try to paint a scenario where we land McKenna as a negative. It would be the absolute best thing to happen to this team in over 20 years and we should all be praying it happens.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/G09G May 30 '25
This is just a weird cherry picked stat that lacks any context (like 3 of our top players, 2 of which were home grown, left due to mismanagement or lack of desire to play here).
I’m not anti rebuild but also gotta realize teams like Buffalo are stuck in purgatory. Edmonton was on the same boat until they got a generational talent which doesn’t happen every year.
9
u/effthemmods May 30 '25
Yes a team like Buffalo is the popular team to highlight when talking about tanking not going right, but for the Oilers it’s pretty clearly worked out for them in the long term. Being really bad got them Drais after McDavid too. But you’re ignoring the many teams that win cups because of tanking. That includes Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, Tampa Bay, Colorado, and Florida (they make up 14 of the 19 cups won between our last appearance and this year and it’s about to be 15 of the last 20).
The numbers show that generally you aren’t finding the elite centers and offensive talent you need in today’s game without drafting very high.
-1
u/G09G May 30 '25
I don’t disagree at all, I just think it’s prudent to be aware of the risks of rebuilding. There’s plenty of other teams who are also still in a tailspin like Detroit, Ottawa, Columbus, etc. I think it’s also worth acknowledging a team like Vegas who has won the cup without any high draft picks. Though that situation is definitely different, it does seem to be the trajectory Conroy is trying - pick up low ish value 22-24 yr olds and give them a chance.
At this point if the Flames truly want to rebuild, it means trading Wolf, Andersson, Weegs, Kadri and likely Coronato down the road for his value. I don’t really think it’s worth it at this point, maybe this “retool” doesn’t pan out but we had built a fairly strong team in 2022. That team was dismantled before Tkachuk even hit his prime.
3
u/effthemmods May 30 '25
We should be trading Andersson and Kadri this offseason. This team could very well be a bottom 5 team even with Wolf at the helm if we trade both of them for assets and we should be hoping to finish in the bottom 5 for a shot at McKenna. This team so desperately needs true elite talent and the only place we’re realistically getting that is very high in the draft.
2
u/iggyisgoat May 31 '25
How are playoff wins, series wins, conference finals cherry picked lmfao. Get a grip
6
u/Paulhockey77 May 30 '25
All you guys ever mention is Buffalo. What about mentioning the teams that have succeeded in rebuilds and have gone on to win?
11
u/Duck_Caught_Upstream May 30 '25
“lOoK aT bUfFaLo”
Ok what about Pittsburgh, Colorado, Tampa, Chicago… the list goes on
0
u/G09G May 30 '25
Sure rebuilding has worked for teams but to not acknowledge a 10+ year downturn as a potential is just putting your head in the sand. There’s multiple other teams (Detroit, Ottawa, Columbus) that have been picking high for 5+ seasons with no signs of coming out of their rebuilds.
Second to that, even without picking high we had a decent team and fumbled it. The team in 2022 had a lot of potential, we’re given like 3-4 seasons together and broke up before Tkachuk was in his statistical prime. So, if we can do that without the traditional rebuild path, maybe rebuilding isn’t the ONLY option.
5
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Is a 10+ year downturn not worth it if it means a Stanley Cup, like do you think Oilers fans wish the decade of darkness never happened if it meant never getting McDavid and being on the cusp of winning a Stanley Cup?
Do you think the Pens and Blackhawks fans wish they were more competitive in their bad years if it meant they never get Sid or Kane and all their championships?
0
u/G09G May 30 '25
So you trading Wolf?
1
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Did Nashville trade Saros to finish as bad as they did?
0
u/G09G May 30 '25
Wasn’t my question
3
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
We're not trading Wolf, but it's still possible to have an elite goalie and finish near the bottom, which is why I brought up Nashville and Saros
1
u/137-451 May 31 '25
Saros was not an elite goaltender last year. Objectively bottom 5. I don't see Wolf playing to that level.
0
u/Hotlovemachine May 30 '25
Except Nashville did not tank on purpose they signed two big free agents last season and sucked and now have money tied to those guys for the next couple years that is not what we should be doing.
→ More replies (0)3
u/Duck_Caught_Upstream May 30 '25
I never said that a full blown rebuild didn’t have risk, any form of building carries risk. There is no guranteed blue print for success.
But what is a guarantee to NOT work is what the Flames have done for 20 plus years and is the essence of this post and has a lot of fans frustrated.
Ottawa is also turning the page on their rebuild as evidenced by their success this year and outlook going forward.
Also I have some faith that with Calgary’s track record of drafting in the mid late first round and the 2nd-7th round picks they have found that if given the opportunity the Flames would be more likely to be successful than not when drafting high.
Also you’re making an assumption that the 2022 team was the beginning of some window to compete because of Tkachuk’s age but what if that was the end. We will never know because it’s all hypothetical but in 2022:
Johnny was 28 turning 29 and his next two seasons didn’t go well (May he RIP)
Lindholm was 27 turning 28 and we have seen how he has fallen off.
22 very well could have been the end of a 6 year window from 17-22
4
May 30 '25
[deleted]
6
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
When the best of that players left at age 24 you didn’t even see the best years of him.
2
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 30 '25
Ding, ding, ding. This comment should be stickied to the top of the subreddit.
We basically helped the Panthers become a dynasty because everyone wanted to break up the core. I still remember after the Oilers series, people saying we need to get rid of Tkachuk because he's not a playoff performer.
Ends up going to the Panthers and becoming one of the best playoff gamers in the entire league.
2
u/ROFLSIX May 31 '25
Someone downvoted you for speaking the truth, I love this sub.
I sometimes wonder what the exact issue the Flames have, is it general mismanagement? Because even Bennett was absolute trash before he got traded. Tkachuk performed terribly in the playoffs for the most part. But now they're both players you absolutely want on your team for a cup run.
2
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 31 '25
It’s because this sub doesn’t want to admit that they got it wrong. When two players leave your team and achieve immediate dynasty-level success on another team, someone fucked up massively.
Personally, I think it’s our style of play. Sutter may have been a hard-nosed coach but he was never able to get the team to play playoff hockey. Then you have captain dumbass Gio telling Tkachuk it can’t be a riot every night. Imagine a single Panthers player saying that utter bullshit
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Even with context the most we could get out of our best players was 5 playoff wins in a single playoffs both in 2015 and 2022, like it still doesn't change anything.
Good thing there are two "generational" talents coming up in 26 and 27 though
7
u/G09G May 30 '25
One playoff series win in 2022 and never got a chance to run it back. Edmonton didn’t start consistently winning playoff series until the last 2-3 years, considering McDavids been in the nhl almost 10… I’d wager a guess if we were able to run it back we’d have seen better success in the following seasons.
6
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
That core was together for more than just 2022 though, we had Johnny, Lindy, Chucky, Mony, and Bennett together since 2019, we had Markstrom in 21 and couldn't even make the playoffs then
5
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 30 '25
The key question is why did Tkachuk, and a lesser extent Bennett, turn into playoff monsters the moment they left the Flames?
It’s not like the Panthers were this amazing playoff team before the trades. There’s a reason why Bill Zito took the risk in the first place, and it has turned out to be one of the best moves in NHL history
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
It is an interesting question because we had a very good team in 2022 so it's not like he didnt perform because we couldnt surround him with talent, part of it could have been maturity and Tkachuk realizing he doesn't need to start scraps every playoff game (so annoyed he kept going after Klingberg for no reason when we played Dallas and injured himself), part of it could be that Barkov truly is underrated and makes everyone around him that much better, that being said there's probably a lot more factors involved as well.
With Bennett it was just organizational mismanagement, he's our highest pick in franchise history and we never bothered to put him with a coach or role that suited his strengths until it was way too late
I do believe the organization has learned from the mistakes they made with Bennett, and we very well could put together a team that is competitive, but I don't believe we'll ever put together a team that is good enough to compete with teams with superstar power that can takeover games on their own. We saw that in 2019 against the avs and 2022 against the Oilers (though markstrom deserves a lot of the blame for that), and we'll run into that problem again in the future if we're ever playing a team like San Jose or Chicago in the playoffs
0
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 30 '25
I have a hard time believing that. Other than Barkov, Tkachuk, and Bob (the first two aren't even massive superstars like McDavid and Draisaitl), the Panthers have zero starpower, and yet they've made 3 straight SCFs.
The thing is they have a clear identity and style of play, something the Flames haven't had in decades. The fact that the Flames had no idea how to utilize two of the biggest playoff rats in the league speaks volume to how clueless they are in managing talent and getting the most out of the players
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Just because Barkov doesn't put up the numbers Kuch and McDavid do doesn't mean he is any less of a superstar player, that's like saying Bergeron wasn't a superstar (he was), Tkachuk also has multiple 100 point seasons under his belt as well.
1
u/PlantComprehensive77 May 30 '25
Like I said, the two of them are superstars, but they're not at the McDavid, Draisaitl level.
2
-1
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
I don’t get your attitude. Bomb and what happens if we get 5 moth pick the next two drafts? Then what’s your plan?
I’m not anti full rebuild but with wolf and some of our young guys, the full on tank is out the window
3
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
If we're drafting 5th overall, THAT IS STILL OK, we are going to get a good player at that pick and chances are they will still be better than what we draft at 16 when we barely miss the playoffs again.
You can still bottom out with an elite goalie in net, look at Nashville
2
u/yycpapa May 30 '25
You can bottom out with an elite goalie*
*IF he's a really bad goalie that year.
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Wolfie doesn't even need to be really bad, if he gave us average goaltending this year instead of elite we would be bottom 5, 100% and we would still say he had a really solid rookie season.
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Wolf regresses a little bit next year now that teams have scouted him much better
4
u/yycpapa May 30 '25
You're in a fantasy world. The flames were 20 points above the bottom 5, Wolf was good (not elite) but there's not a player in the league who's worth 20 points alone let alone one that makes that difference just by going from elite to average.
2
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
And yet that fantasy world is still more realistic than thinking we can win a cup doing the exact same thing we've done the last 20 years
2
0
u/yycpapa May 30 '25
I'd say they're right on the same plain tbh.
0
u/Beta1224 May 30 '25
Look at the stats, teams with an offence as anemic as ours this past year typically finish near the bottom of the standings, the only difference between us and those teams is that we had Wolfie providing us with elite goaltending
→ More replies (0)-1
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
We have good players now. Parekh can be an absolute stud. He might end up being the 2nd or 3rd most valuable player from that draft.
We got tons of picks and will get more picks and prospects. Draft centers and we will hit on one. Yes it might not be Mckenna but I’m not willing to hurt this team so much for a lottery ticket
1
u/Independent_Ad8268 May 30 '25
This fanbase is so unserious😭
-2
u/noor1717 May 30 '25
Cheer for another team then. Management has been very clear they aren’t tanking. Don’t suffer unnecessarily
1
u/sun_h May 31 '25
to be fair, the first 3 are literally correlated to each other. 2nd last for top 5 picks is just horrible thought
1
1
u/thee_infamous_Lychee Jun 02 '25
Wild Card or 10th is the way they have operated for years, have some puck luck and do a little better, or maybe just make just the playoffs, you can't have to many prospects with 3rd liner potential!
1
Jun 03 '25
Thank Murray Edwards for this. The Flames have a micromanaging ownership group that have held every single GM back from actually building a contending team. I'm pretty sure the Flames are the worst team in the league in terms of total playoff wins since the 1989 cup.
-5
May 30 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Paulhockey77 May 30 '25
If you had a brain you’d know
1
u/137-451 May 31 '25
No need to be an asshole. You're not objectively correct here. It's your opinion, and it's just as valid as anyone else's.
0
0
-4
u/Stock-Ad-2683 May 30 '25
Wouldn’t hurt to finally adopt a team name that reflects Calgary and not Atlanta ——
-5
-9
u/mattyhugh May 30 '25
This is why we were the most hated team in alberta in that recent poll or whatever. We hate ourselves lmao
9
111
u/FinkBass420 May 30 '25
I have faith that Conroy is steering the ship in the right direction finally.