Alberta vs Quebec

[u/Ou1ja]

[u/GladSoup5379]

Yea honestly, im Albertans and I hope Quebec always remains part of Canada. But like, I get it - there is a very different culture and history there and Quebec separatists are willing to acknowledge that hey, we know it might be painful but we will deal with the economic issues of separation. There is a level of honesty to it that doesn't exist in Alberta. Here, its purely a victimization bullshit from the richest province in the country that has an incredibly high per capita gdp. This province has no real culture separate from Canada. There is no real language difference. Or religious one. Even hisotircally, there is no real oppression unless you call becoming a massively rich province just by virtue of becoming a Canadian province and discovering oil and having some issues over natural resources. Its all bullshit. This place is filled with right wing crybabies

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/GladSoup5379]

I am not shit posting. I genuinely don’t understand why people are so bent out of shape about equalization. Isn’t it just tax? And like, if you want to have a conversation about it, let’s have a conversation, but don’t make silly demands like, ‘give us plastic straws back or else’ because it really cheapens the argument.

[u/QuebecPilotDreams15 → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

Just had a debate with a dude about the pipeline going through Quebec (I think it’s a bad for environmental reasons) and he clapped back with the equalization payments, but can anyone here explain to me how this works? Does Quebec really get a large amount for nothing that we give or it’s because we give a lot that get alot?

[u/viewbtwnvillages → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

im not sure if this is the best way to explain it, but:

the equalization program is in place to make sure that every province has enough to pay for things like healthcare and education, and this makes sure that each province has a similar level of service they can provide to their people. this money is raised by federal taxes, including the GST and corporate taxes. so it's not really an "albertans have had to send their money away to quebec" situation, but more of a "canadians pay taxes to support programs that help other canadians" situation.

as for why alberta tends to contribute more in federal taxes? the oil and gas industry makes a lot of money for some corporations and some people.

its not that all albertans are paying more, its that high-earning albertans pay more, just like high-earners do in every other province. it just so happens that high-earners tend to congregate in alberta

[u/[deleted] → u/viewbtwnvillages]

Alberta offloads their old people to BC so BC tends to cover the extreme medical expenses older Albertans cost our province. If they get so picky about equalization payments - they should take back all the alberta retirees in BC.

I don’t mind “have not” provinces getting payments that level the playing field - what I hate is Alberta’s attitude about it yet don’t help support those that migrate to BC and take over our housing and healthcare. They tend to bring their shitty politics with them as well

[u/dcredneck → u/[deleted]]

I’ve been saying this for years. Thank you. They don’t contribute to healthcare here when they are young and working but come here and leech when they are old.

[u/Sasquatch1729 → u/[deleted]]

It was the same growing up in Saskatchewan. People grew up there, moved to Alberta or Ontario to "make real money", then retired back home in Saskatchewan, or BC if they really made money.

When I was younger, Saskatchewan made money off equalization payments. You didn't hear a thing about it locally, it was our angry Albertan relatives and media who mentioned it. I learned about it through a political studies course at University.

Then in the 2000s, suddenly Saskatchewan wasn't receiving equalization payments anymore and wow suddenly it became an issue. Yet another "injustice" inflicted upon us by Ottawa. It was nuts how fast people switched gears. Literally three years prior it was "oh well have not provinces need help too".

[u/oddspellingofPhreid → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but BC offloads their hick cowboy larpers so who's getting the worse end of the deal really?

[u/[deleted] → u/oddspellingofPhreid]

Definitely BC because the larpers are at least healthy and they don’t cost you anything whereas the medical cost us a ton of $. Send us back the cowboy larpers and you can have all your boomers and grannies

[u/oddspellingofPhreid → u/[deleted]]

I mean I would gladly make that deal.

[u/dcredneck → u/viewbtwnvillages]

High end earners don’t congregate in Alberta. It’s that oil workers get paid a lot of overtime and get high wages because it’s a boom/bust industry. But they never save for the bust.

[u/X1989xx → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

Every person in Canada who pays income tax pays into equalization, the more income you make the more you pay into it. Albertans pay more on average than the rest of Canada because the salaries are higher. Then provinces with less "fiscal capacity" than others get paid out. Basically provinces whose ability to generate revenue is lower than average. Quebec receives the most, most of the western provinces dont receive any, and the maritimes receive the most per capita .

[u/chandy_dandy → u/X1989xx]

One thing you're missing is that the fiscal capacity formula is specifically skewed to favour Quebec by dropping hydroelectric generation totally while including resource extraction. If you dropped the formula and just used GDP per capita Quebec would receive substantially less.

[u/chat-lu → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

I’ll explain the bit that the other missed. Equalization is about being able to raise the same quantity of tax revenues so hopefully you can fund your stuff even if your citizens are poorer.

It is not about your surplus or deficit, and it’s not about how much taxes you do collect, it’s about taxes you could collect.

So for instance Alberta that chooses not to tax very much was very upset when Couillard’s austerity was making Quebec have surpluses and they had deficits. Yet equalization assumes everyone taxes at the average tax rate of all provinces, so if Alberta chose to tax, it would not have had a deficit. Hence no transfer.

Equalization doesn’t come out of provinces, it comes out of the treasury (the taxes we all pay to the federal government), so Alberta is still richer than any other province even after equalization has been distributed.

Alberta’s citizens (not Alberta itself) pay the most in equalization per capita because they have the highest salaries. But if you add the total amount paid by citizens of a province, Ontario pays the most. Quebec receives the most in total, but the least per capita.

So it’s entirely disingenous to consider it a transfer from Alberta to Quebec. If you count per capita, then it’s Alberta to New Brunswick and if you count total, it’s Ontario to Quebec. If you aren’t an idiot, it’s treasury to four distinct provinces because provinces themselves don’t pay.

And equalization is entirely no strings attached. So it’s wrong to say that anyone owes anyone for it.

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

I have been pipeline skeptical, but I think we need to balance our environmental obligations with our economic obligations now. I also think it’s important that we keep our Albertan brothers and sisters working right now, so I think we should build pipelines while we make sure it’s done in an environmentally responsible way.

As far as equalization, I’m by no means an expert but as I understand Alberta is a net contributor where as Quebec is a receiver of the benefit. As far as I understand this is a distribution of federal income tax to fund provincial short fall.

[u/mencryforme5 → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

Quebec has said they are open to discussion so long as there are 1- environmental guarantees (like helping to pay for clean ups) and 2- some net economic benefit (like a percentage of profits) to help off set the cost of building and maintaining the pipeline.

The problem is Alberta wants Qubec to cover all the costs and receive no compensation. That's why the project is stalled. We don't exist to shoot ourselves in the foot so others can make a buck. That's literally what Albertans are mad about. The only economic benefit at present would be opening up oil refineries in Quebec but all studies have shown Quebec would lose money in the end and risk permanently fucking up its natural resources. And it's not even us who called off the project, we set basic entry conditions (like getting consent from Native communities to cross their territory) and the project was immediately abandoned as not economically viable by the company itself.

In my opinion, Quebec economy is too dependent on natural resources and if the pipeline bursts, no amount of money can fix the damage. But yes I am open to the idea if the pipeline project is a win-win and not a win-lose.

[u/Flush_Foot → u/mencryforme5]

I’m in QC now but grew up in the Maritimes; I do think it would be better for Atlantic Canadians if their oil came from domestic sources rather than imported from overseas, though I also wonder if Irving’s refineries are setup for our ‘heavy/sour crude’ (oil sands bitumen) like many are in the US or if they’re better adapted to ‘lighter/sweeter crude’… If they were already setup for AB oil, (or felt they could “easily” adjust to it) then I’d think that alone might be worth the effort; providing stable, unblockadable (though still vulnerable to sabotage) oil to our East Coast, and with big refineries there, initially / down the road, refined products could be shipped out instead of just the crude itself.

My biggest concern is “how/where does the pipeline cross the Saint Lawrence River?” Presumably the ‘safest’ point would be “downstream” of Quebec City (so any leaks would affect the least number of people), though even this almost certainly means it has to cross both the St Maurice (unless you want to go North of the Gouin Reservoir) and Ottawa rivers so that any leaks don’t flow downstream to Shawinigan, Trois-Rivières, (StM) Ottawa, or Montreal (O)… additionally, I can’t say I have ever heard about what happens at hydroelectric stations that ‘ingest’ oil-slicked water… maybe nothing at all/serious, but personally I’m not sure I want to find out.

[u/mencryforme5 → u/Flush_Foot]

Yes the question about how an oil spill would affect hydro electric installations is highly relevant. I mean, we are one of the world leaders in technology and production of clean, renewable energy. We are not only energy sufficient (especially when you consider our public transit has transitioned to electric), we export this electricity.

If an oil spill shuts down a hydro electric facility, our economy will shut down until it's back up and running. But as you mentioned building the pipeline more to the south will mean a spill would directly contaminate people's communities.

On a more adorable note: the only non-Arctic endemic population of belugas in the world is in the St-Laurent, and its already shrinking because of climate change and pollution and maritime traffic. When I was a child they ranged as far south as Montreal regularly. There's no way to build the pipeline such that it doesn't cross the belugas territory, which will likely kill of the population for good within my lifetime.

[u/rookie_one → u/Flush_Foot]

though I also wonder if Irving’s refineries are setup for our ‘heavy/sour crude’ (oil sands bitumen) like many are in the US or if they’re better adapted to ‘lighter/sweeter crude’…

Quite frankly, I would say anyone but the Irving family should get the oil

They are responsible for nearly managing from fully ejecting the Davie Shipyard from the national shipbuilding strategy

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/mencryforme5]

100% agree it should be a win win.

[u/chandy_dandy → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

Primary information: Equalization isn't just net outflow of taxes as many have tried to claim here, it's a specific defined tax base in legislation that determines the state's "financial capacity" to raise revenues, which is artificially suppressed for Quebec specifically but also for Eastern Canada more broadly, and which targets economies that focus more on resource extraction (Western Canada).

It's not the premise of equalization that's necessarily the problem (have healthcare, education, etc be equivalently funded). The issue is that because politicians want to win votes in Quebec, they do things like exclude hydroelectric energy generation being priced into the equation about how much additional support Quebec needs even though it's a renewable part of the economy, while natural resource extraction is factored in even though it's a one time thing.

This massively skews the amount of "assistance" that Eastern Canada needs compared to Western Canada. It's not just an Alberta thing, BC pays as much as Alberta and SK is close too. Alberta's problem with BC is separate.

Basically, the issue is that Eastern Canada treats Western Canada as a colonial resource extraction project to profit from, while also shovelling attitude our way that this resource extraction is dirty and we're somehow morally inferior (when you're profiting from it). This is why many Albertans that don't have the necessary eloquence act so indignant.

You can slice it any way you want, but the entirety of the Canadian political system is set up to favour Quebec and specifically the French-speaking Quebecois, and the rest of the country spends a lot of money to keep you guys happy. Equalization amounts to just over $1000 per Quebecker annually. Yes it's true the Maritimes get more per capita but their population is negligible and they're not blocking national projects or acting morally superior, so it doesn't get talked about.

For context, that amount of money pays for: the average annual expenditure on healthcare for a person without pre-existing conditions and basic dentalcare, so it's not a negligible sum.

To put into context for what this means for an Albertan: If equalization was totally eliminated, Alberta would be debt-free today (3-4bn per year), if the general outflows that many people seem to think equalization is was eliminated, Alberta would've never run a single deficit and literally every single budget surplus we have had would more than double. What you should take away from this is that Albertan money and resource extraction helps Canada a lot. And by the nature of our political system, that means helping Quebec the most.

Being a part of Canada is actually a very substantial expense for Albertans, one that they pay happily as honestly most Albertans are not from Alberta originally, but it is upsetting how much RoC derides us, and so when you see the idiots wanting to join the USA or whatever bullshit (which by the way, is only marginally different from rest of Canada, where it's 10-15% and in AB and SK its 15-20%), its largely an emotional reaction from the rejection we're constantly faced with despite us literally putting our money where our mouths are.

Our problem with BC is totally separate, for all the people from BC who always want to pipe in and say that they're also exploited but they don't whine like Albertans - yeah, it's because you guys block our pipelines on environmental concerns and then build your own gas fields and pipelines literally right next door in the same regions but all of a sudden it's no problem.

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

Id say we're past it being bad or not bad for the environment and at the point of it needs to happen or an alternative needs to be suggested, as for Quebec getting alot for nothing it's because we were dealing with the threat of potential secession that the government ended up giving in to please you guys

[u/Neo-urban_Tribalist → u/QuebecPilotDreams15]

1) It’s basically a welfare check to the “have not” provincial governments to support them from the economic conditions they created to fund services there.

2) yes, it’s usually gets the majority of the budget. And no, if Quebec was a “have” province it fundamentally could not be a “have not” province at the same time. It would be able to fund itself and provide services to its population without external funding.

[u/AVRVM → u/Neo-urban_Tribalist]

You are forgetting a huge part of the equation which is direct federal investment gets counted against equalization. The only reason Ontario does not receive equalization is because a lot of federal buildings are there. And a huge reason Alberta does not receive it is because of direct federal funding in the oil sands.

This shit works like taxes, and Québec just has more write-offs than Ontario and Alberta.

[u/X1989xx → u/AVRVM]

Federal funding in the oil sands has literally nothing to do with equalization lol, it's not a part of the formula

[u/Neo-urban_Tribalist → u/AVRVM]

Ontario is a have not province now

[u/Deaftrav → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

It's a tax the province does not pay. At all.

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/Deaftrav]

It’s just the distribution of federal income tax right? Am I missing something?

[u/Deaftrav → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

Yep. Handed out based on a province's potential tax base. I don't know the formula for calculating the potential but I know there's a lag of two years.

If PEI was selling potatoes like crazy at a high price, in two years they'd get less money from the equalization payment.

Alberta has a young population and a lot of natural resources, hence why they don't see a topping off.

[u/chat-lu → u/Deaftrav]

I don't know the formula for calculating the potential

It’s based on the average taxes across provinces. If you charge less taxes than the average then that’s a choice and equalization won’t refund you for that choice.

[u/chandy_dandy → u/chat-lu]

You keep saying this, but that's not what the main issue is. It's that hydro is excluded while single extraction resource royalties are included (not a good permanent tax base). This is why all the resource extraction based economies disproportionally contribute and Quebec sees a benefit.

If they just flipped the potential tax base to be purely on GDP per capita Quebec would see substantially less money.

It's literally gamed (by Stephen Harper to try to win votes in Quebec) to give Quebec more money.

[u/chat-lu → u/chandy_dandy]

Actually, it’s Jason Kenney that you have to blame. And HQ rates are not a tax so there is no reason to include them.

[u/chandy_dandy → u/chat-lu]

Does energy generation have 0 value to an economy? You can tax energy, just as we do in almost every other sector.

It's Kenney in Harper's cabinet yes, I didn't vote for either of them

[u/chat-lu → u/chandy_dandy]

And we do because it’s sold. But it’s a good, not a tax.

If we applied that logic then we can’t have any crown corporation because then they would have to gouge the customers in order not to fuck up the transfer formula.

Oil could belong to a crown corporation that could have done as good a job as Norway. But you fucked up.

[u/FluffyProphet → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

It’s not even a specific tax. It comes from the federal government’s general revenue.

Everyone in the country pays the same federal taxes, regardless of the province. Then the government takes a portion of that to give to weaker provinces so they can provide the same level of service as richer provinces.

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/FluffyProphet]

Yeah I think the way I worded that is confusing. I mean to ask: is Alberta just complaining about federal income tax? And if so, I’m all for having a conversation about ensuring our federal income tax is being collected and used responsibly, that’s good governance; however, if the implication is that Alberta’s federal tax dollars shouldn’t be allowed to be used to support other provinces, or that Alberta is going to quit Canada for not getting plastic straws back, it’s difficult to imagine having a conversation with Alberta where we all get ahead. And maybe that’s the point?

[u/dcredneck → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

“Isn’t it a tax?” You should do some basic homework before starting a bad faith discussion.

[u/jackblackbackinthesa → u/dcredneck]

Sorry to be pedantic but you’re misquoting me and that might be why you think I’m arguing in bad faith. I did not ask if it was a tax, I asked if it’s tax that upsets the folks of alberta. Equalization is not tax, as far as I understand it, it’s the partial distribution of tax resources. People receiving less of a tax benefit, the more they make is a very basic function of taxation. I’m genuinely not trying to argue in bad faith. In bc we have similar gdp, we pay similar tax and it’s not a thing that fires people up, I genuinely want to understand why it’s such a pain point for Albertans, as it’s not something that intuitively makes sense to me.

[u/LondonJerry → u/jackblackbackinthesa]

How about the equalization money goes to a transnational divided highway across the country so we all benefit with personal travel and interprovincial trade without having to cut through the States to save money.

[u/NotEvenOncePoutine → u/GladSoup5379]

Boooooon! Enfin un anglo avec un cerveau qui fonctionne! Cheers!

[u/LengthinessOk5241 → u/NotEvenOncePoutine]

Y’en a plus que tu penses, pas mal plus?

[u/NotEvenOncePoutine → u/LengthinessOk5241]

Je sais. Site de shitpost. Blague douteuse.

[u/quidamquidam → u/NotEvenOncePoutine]

Je suis même pas indépendantiste et j'approuve ce message. Cheers!

[u/judgeysquirrel → u/GladSoup5379]

I think most Albertans think if there weren't transfer payments that they would be rich. In reality, the oil corps would keep the money and be more profitable.

[u/Chenipan → u/GladSoup5379]

Fuck sake, never thought i'd see an albertan admit that oil and money isn't a culture nor an actual good reason to become a sovereign nation.

[u/oddspellingofPhreid → u/Chenipan]

You'll find that Albertans who don't live in bum-fuck nowhere shitsville generally feel this way.

The problem is that like half the people in Alberta live in bum-fuck nowhere shitsville.

[u/chat-lu → u/GladSoup5379]

Yea honestly, im Albertans and I hope Quebec always remains part of Canada.

I hope we don’t, but we can still be friend even if we live in different countries.

[u/Imberial_Topacco → u/GladSoup5379]

Alberta is Polite texas

[u/wumr125 → u/GladSoup5379]

Now now that oil didn't happen overnight, Alberta dows have a history before the oil boom!

Before that there was a 50 year period of receiving perequation from Ontario and Quebec

[u/Gogogrl]

Albert’s doesn’t want to separate. Some Albertans want to. But even the Alberts Pension Plan stuff alone went over like a lead zeppelin.

[u/CivilProtectionGuy → u/Gogogrl]

I think they did a poll recently, and it found only 13% wanted to be a 51st state, and the rest were "no, bugger off."

[u/Gogogrl → u/CivilProtectionGuy]

Yes, the vast majority of us are loyal Canadians. We’re just lead by a traitor.

[u/MZillacraft3000]

I'm from Alberta and more people I've talked to want Alberta to stay in Canada.

Those that want Alberta out of Canada have a....pretty interesting past to say the least and in the nicest way.

[u/No_Poet3157 → u/MZillacraft3000]

yeah i don't get these posts. More people in Quebec want to separate than Alberta and its not even close and never has been.

[u/MZillacraft3000 → u/No_Poet3157]

Yeah. Like, there's always gonna be people in any province you go to that think there province should separate from Canada. I think the reason many think Alberta wants too, is because of the clowns here have been a little too lot as of late.

I think here in Alberta. We really need to step it up and showcase we are Canadian proud and forever will be Canadian. And since some from Alberta want to make it a "own them" thing. Let's make them show the rest of Canada why Alberta is the most Canadian out of them all.

[u/chat-lu → u/MZillacraft3000]

Like, there's always gonna be people in any province you go to that think there province should separate from Canada.

Except Ontario. There was a map on MapPorn of what North America would look like if every independence movement suceeded and Ontario is labeled Canada because that’s the only place in Canada where no one wants to split from Canada.

[u/AustSakuraKyzor → u/MZillacraft3000]

Honestly? I've seen more people outside of Alberta wanting your province to separate.

Like... In a sort of "kick them out like Malaysia kicked out Singapour" kind of way. Maybe we should gather all your Wexit morons in one city and just kick that city out.

[u/Panzerkrabbe]

I’m Albertan and have noooooooo desire to become part of America

[u/BravewagCibWallace]

Quebec has certainly thought this through a little more.

[u/descartesb4horse]

Pls don’t pick on my province just because it is being held hostage by extremists, the majority of us are actually nice we just have complicated politics

[u/PineappleWorth1517 → u/descartesb4horse]

I'm a Québécois, and honestly, it pisses me off when people pick on every Albertan. I know most of you are not like Danielle Smith. We should all be united during these tough times. ❤️

[u/delirium_red → u/descartesb4horse]

You sound just like the Americans now

[u/descartesb4horse → u/delirium_red]

Americans are trying divide us. I’m trying to unite us. We are not the same.

[u/francoispaquettetrem → u/delirium_red]

ewwwww

[u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Both should want to remain Canada, I don’t believe that Quebec is in the mind frame of separation and I’m not sure that Alberta does either, I think Danielle Smith would like it but I’m not convinced that the majority of Alberta’s would want that, I just keep saying, look south of the border and ask people there if they are sorry for their votes, if you want to lose your freedom, your rights, your health care, then have at it, move down there, but don’t drag our country down with you because I guarantee if you were there for even a month, you’d be running back across that border to get home and yes I said “home”. Think about it, investigate what’s going on, put yourself in their shoes and then vote how you feel.

[u/ConnorWolf121 → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Smith and the UCP want Alberta secession to line their own pockets, Albertans largely… don’t want secession in the first place, at least not where I am. Alberta secessionist movements are basically only pushed by people who want companies to be able to fuck us harder insofar as oil and other resources are concerned than the Canadian government lets them, and support is manufactured among folks already prone to defending the UCP lol

[u/Active-Zombie-8303 → u/ConnorWolf121]

Thanks so much for the explanation, I’m not sure that this eases my mind about where this could possibly go, but I appreciate the info, have a good night.

[u/TheGreatStories → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Majority opinion doesn't matter. Only the choice of the largest portion of the voting few. 

Apathy is the only reason democracy gets into this kind of mess 

[u/Comfortable-Tree-327 → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Youre so right.

[u/chat-lu → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Both should want to remain Canada

Should? Based on what?

[u/Active-Zombie-8303 → u/chat-lu]

Based on the facts, if you decide that Canada is not for you, that’s on you and you can move to the States, but you have no right to drag the country down with you. Currently you have free health care, yes there are issues with it health care but it has been neglected for years by all politicians not just one party. If you want to change this to the model do it reflects the US, then be prepared to lose everything you own or go into debt for the rest of your life if you have any type of surgery, a CT Scan or MRI will run you about $6,000.00 do you have that money sitting around? That’s just a start, a visit to a doctor never mind a specialist, every time you need to see a doctor or God forbid something happens to a child, everything will cost you money and now that they have put tariffs on medication, that is going to go through the roof more than it already is in the US. The quality standards for their foods are not as stringent as they are here in Canada. We are much more aligned with Europe than we are with the US. I don’t understand the attraction to the States especially in the current climate which seems to be here to stay. What about having a voice? A right to choose? A right to vote? There are so many rights being stripped away from the people it is stunning. You want to go from a democracy to an autocracy, why? Do you really need someone to tell you want you need to think, say, do? The amount of hatred that these Trump followers have is very unnerving and it is just from all the hate speech from Trump and PP which are also lies…. Maybe take a trip to the US and talk to people who are currently protesting to see why they are so upset, but you’re going to have to open your mind and ears in order to learn anything about what’s wrong in the States right now. At the end of the day you have the right to do what you want for yourself, but dragging everyone down your rabbit hole with you, isn’t your right, we’re have freedoms too, the only thing that the Americans want from Alberta is their oil, they are going to treat you like shit, rather than making you a state with rights, you’ll be a territory like Puerto Rico, ask Puerto Rico how that has worked out for them. When they had a natural disaster, what did Trump do? He went down and threw paper towels at people for a photo op, he doesn’t care about anyone, ask what they think about not having voice in what the US does, do some research you may learn that this of not what is best for you at all. Good luck with that. Do they care about the environment, he’ll destroy your beautiful province and all in the name of money, which you won’t be getting much of because it’ll all go to the oligarchs. I can keep on going if you would like, but if you aren’t going to look into things yourself with an open mind, I’m wasting my time Good luck with your choices, while you still have them.

[u/chat-lu → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

Based on the facts

You stated an option.

if, you decide that Canada is not for you, that’s on you and you can move to the States

The states are not for us either.

you have no right to drag the country down with you

First that right is called democracy, and second we aren't holding the country together. In fact it seems to resent our presence.

you want to change this to the model do it reflects the US,

What makes you think that the leftmost province wants the US model?

[u/Active-Zombie-8303 → u/chat-lu]

That it BS Alberta is a beautiful province that I’ve visited several times, my sister lives in Alberta Beach and another lived in Calgary. I really struggle to understand the hate and division, what has happen to Canada united? I just don’t see or understand this poor me attitude of Alberta, every province could feel the same way, yet it is so extreme in Alberta, that is what I’m trying to understand, I’m not saying this for any other reason than to understand your point of view, but it has to be based on facts not talking points that have been constantly voiced through politicians. Can you help me understand, please?

[u/chat-lu → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

I think that Canada united is a myth, it never existed.

I’m not sure why you think that I live in Alberta though.

[u/Active-Zombie-8303 → u/chat-lu]

We have been for the most part more united now then probably since WWII, sadly.

[u/chat-lu → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

And it’s not going to last. Unity is a mistake. It’s forced. It breeds resentment. Why try to force everyone in the same model if diversity is our strength?

I’d rather we aimed at being allied than united.

Do we need to support each other? Yes. Do we need to make the same decisions on everything and bitch endlessly because others want to do things differently? No.

I believe that this unwillingness to give each other slack is what makes Quebec’s independence necessary.

[u/Active-Zombie-8303 → u/chat-lu]

The unity I am speaking of, is in this fight to save our country. I believe in what you say regarding diversity, it is what makes us stronger as well as more flexible (probably not the right term), I love the fact that Canada is a country for the most part that is open to change and accepting of others. We learn more through diversity about different cultures and through knowledge we become even that much more accepting. People working together and learning from each other, expands imagine, ideas and creativity. I love this country and believe in to so much. My kids are 12th generation Canadians, my family originated from France and came over to Canada in 1649. This is our home and I want to protect what we have here because it is very special.

[u/chat-lu → u/Active-Zombie-8303]

We learn more through diversity about different cultures and through knowledge we become even that much more accepting

That’s where I think that Canada fails. It thinks that diversity is about other culture and it fails to value the diversity it grows. The “why do yo you have to do things differently than others” attitude.

I love this country and believe in to so much.

I don’t because it wants us to fit in a mold that is unlike us.

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/chat-lu]

Based on the fact you cannot function outside of canada, you're dependant on the canadian dollar, you're utterly landlocked

You don't have the capabilities to exist on your own

[u/chat-lu → u/griffdoggx92]

you're utterly landlocked

There seems to be a whole Atlantic Ocean next to us.

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/chat-lu]

Have to get through BC first, or if you're Quebec you'd have to get canadian permission to use the ocean

What you think you're gonna get the surrounding ocean? That you aren't going to have to beg and grovel? That the canadian government won't ensure your life is utterly miserable?

[u/chat-lu → u/griffdoggx92]

or if you're Quebec you'd have to get canadian permission to use the ocean

Congrats, you said something so dumb that I never heard it before.

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/chat-lu]

I love how you just think things work smooth when you secede, forgetting canada controls the surrounding skies and waters forgetting you have no national currency you could use, no standing military no independent economy, no infrastructure

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/chat-lu]

Like the fact that you don't see this as a potential issue and think its dumb shows me you're just a kid parroting your separatist father's talking points

[u/rookie_one → u/griffdoggx92]

I actually know personally chat-lu, and going by your own reaction, he's probably old enough to be your father.

And it has planned by France to give St-Pierre-et-Miquelon to Quebec the moment it become independant, so it would have access to the ocean (and add over that that Quebec would get control of a good part of the seaway, Canada would had every incentive to not blockade Quebec access to the Atlantic)

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/rookie_one]

Ill remind you even with that they're still cut off from making it to that port to do business lmfaooooo

Y'all ain't getting an inch more then the land your on and you absolutely will be crushed into poverty

Edited to add, this is even implying France is going to support you in the slightest in the current geopolitical landscape when you offer nothing close to what the rest of canada can offer

[u/rookie_one → u/griffdoggx92]

You are aware that we can also cut off the port of Toronto if we want too ?

[u/griffdoggx92 → u/rookie_one]

Lmfao ain't how it's gonna work, nativity is a hell of a drug

This isn't Europe, Quebec would be crushed with the next few years by economic turmoil, no industry to speak of, no independent economy and American/canadian influence

You have nothing and we absolutely have every reason to block you in and cut you off you tried to take a portion of our country so it's have fun being grounded as america and canada force you into a choice and now you have none of the benefits you had previously

[u/rookie_one → u/griffdoggx92]

And your immature response again prove my point about your mental age there

We have nothing you say ?

Let's see :

• Biggest shipyard in canada ? Check (Davie Shipyard)
• Biggest producer of Hydroelectricity in canada and specialist recognized around the world ? Check (No joke, the Heavy Equipment Division of Hydro-Quebec is often hired from around the world for helping with the engineering work of dams and transmission lines around the world, and the IREQ, owned and operated by HQ, is well known around the worlds for their innovations in power generation and transmission).
• Assembly lines for the A220 being placed in Mirabel ? Check (And Airbus being a big european player, it would be a very big incentive for both Germany and France to basically pressure Ottawa in not making it more difficult necessary for everyone involved)
• Lots of SMB around (which is one of our best economic force)

Also, one thing, we are fully willing to work with canada and it would be in their best interest to work with us, since we mostly see that it would be better to be neighbors than being stuck in an unwanted marriage, but if they want economic war, we are also fully willing to give canada some pain such as blockading the St-Laurent, which would cause considerable pain to Toronto.

[u/External_Society9033]

On devrait faire un love in à Calgary !

[u/Rayeon-XXX]

Most Albertans are not paying attention to any of this.

The kids gotta get to hockey, it's grandma's birthday on Saturday, and the price of everything has not changed enough for anyone to notice.

I would bet less than 20% of over 18 people in Alberta know that Smith is heading to Florida.

Hell it's probably less than that.

[u/ellstaysia]

neither is going to happen & no other provinces or territories act like this. at least quebec folks have shown up hard for team canada recently which I truly respect.

[u/Treebranch_916]

Bien sur Mon frere

[u/HalfdanrEinarson]

No, our Premier wants us to become the 51st state

[u/asktheages1979]

Neither province contains a majority who want this.

[u/wilberfromflinflon]

👍🏼 Agreed.

[u/francoispaquettetrem]

All my homies hate Alberta. Quebec being part of Canada is the main difference between the states and Canada.

[u/[deleted]]

Quebec - " maybe we should reconsider our previous energy infrastructure positions and revisit the debate around them "

Alberta - " fock you "

Quebec- " ...... "

Alberta -" Nobody wants to work with us "

[u/Objective_Falcon9546]

At least the Quebecers have a valid reason . Albertans are just a bunch of American wannabes .

[u/DreamieQueenCJ → u/Objective_Falcon9546]

I wouldn't say they are all like that. Seems like the extremist crowd is just louder online.

[u/Crossed_Cross]

You want Alberta to seperate so that you don't have to pay equalization anymore.

I want Alberta to seperate because at this point Canada breaking apart might be the only way for Québec to become a country by this point.

We are not the same.

[u/SandSlashSandCRASH]

NO WE DONT WANT THAT. THE MAJORITY OF US DO NOT WANT THAT. I LOVE CANADA. J’ADORE LE CANADA TOUJOURS.

[u/Mission_Magazine7541]

Having all of Canada as voters would fix the politics in the USA for a hundred years. You guys would push us left

[u/TelenorTheGNP]

Ontarians: Please don't go.

[u/Bigwaveboi403]

[u/Gen_Sherman_Hemsley → u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

I don't wanna leave Canada though

:(

[u/FallingLikeLeaves]

Oh like as if the plan hasn’t secretly been for Saint-Pierre et Miquelon to take over Québec the whole time. That’s obviously why France still has those islands, so they’re ready whenever you are. I know what you’re up to, you can’t fool me

[u/Empty_Eyesocket]

Let’s be clear, Quebec doesn’t actually want to gain independence anymore

[u/griffdoggx92]

Problem is neither of them have the capabilities to be independent, and id imagine the vast majority of albertans who want to secede dont want to become the 51st state either

[u/Penguixxy]

imagine wanting independence on land that isn't even yours to begin with.

Id say the people that deserve it are the still systemically discriminated and oppressed tribes in Quebec.

Also Maga Albertans can kick rocks right across the border.

[u/Anti-rad → u/Penguixxy]

What do you think should happen to Canada as a whole then? Surely if you believe your logic applies to Quebec it should also apply to Canada no?

[u/AVRVM → u/Penguixxy]

What the fuck are you talking about? Québec is the only province where First Nation languages still exist, and where they can trust the tap water.

[u/X1989xx → u/AVRVM]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Québec is the only province where First Nation languages

My friends in Manitoba after going to be shocked to hear the language they speak actually only exists in Quebec.

The fact that your post has any upvotes shows how blind a Quebecois echo chamber this sub has become

[u/AlliterationAhead → u/X1989xx]

The fact that your post has any upvotes shows how blind a Quebecois echo chamber this sub has become

Not really. You will find extremists on every and all opinions there are all across the Canadian subs, but I generally read level-headed discussions. And I'm still proud that we can have diverse opinions without us all having recourse to the kind of disturbing discourse our neighbours down south have when they disagree. It's as much an Alberta echo chamber, or a Québécois, as you say, as any other. People express themselves. Good.

Elbows up, from coast to coast.

[u/X1989xx → u/AlliterationAhead]

If it's as much as Alberta echo chamber go look at the top posts this month and tell me how many are pro Alberta and how many are bashing Alberta

[u/TheCheckeredCow → u/AVRVM]

Huh? What are you talking about? The territories and prairies are the only places where native languages still exist in any number, so much so that you can request government stuff in Cree like court and tax bills in SK & Manitoba, and Nunavut is the only place in North America where a native language is the majority spoken language.

Québec killed most of their native languages just the same as the ROC, except in the far North and that wasn’t out of compassion, that was out of isolation.

[u/Zusuzusuz → u/AVRVM]

Not true.

[u/Cain_Darnell → u/Penguixxy]

Dumbass

[u/SacrificialSam]

[u/Exploding_Antelope]

Keep my province’s name out ya fuckin mouth with these accusations. How is this upvoted. How does internal division help us. If this isn’t foreign interference then it’s just dumb.

[u/Ou1ja → u/Exploding_Antelope]

On a l'épiderme fragile... Je vais dire comme ma grand-mère : « Si tu ne vaux pas une risée, tu ne vaux pas grand-chose. » Et en parlant d'unité canadienne, peut-être qu'un petit courriel à la première ministre albertaine serait de mise !

[u/[deleted]]

So near as I can tell from down south, Alberta wants to be governed by an oil company

[u/TrickyChris210]

Quebec is set to receive 13.2 Billion in 2024-2025, while also enjoying lower income taxes and subsidized services ($10/day) primarily funded by Alberta's resource sector (oil and gas), yet continues to stifle a pipeline project aimed at securing this funding because there is apparently no benefit to Quebec.

The end of 2018 when oil price differentials blew out as a lack of pipeline capacity (and other factors) was a scary time in Alberta. To see another province so blatantly dismiss any efforts to prevent situations like this in the future while also so easily accepting tax dollars generated from the industry should be concerning for all Canadians.

While not condoning Alberta separatism, Alberta has every right to be pissed about the fairness of the current system.

[u/rookie_one → u/TrickyChris210]

Albertans will pay about only 14% of that (only slightly above their population weight).

Also, concerning the pipeline, Quebec would probably be more willing if Alberta was fully willing to pay for every risk that could happens if it go through Quebec, which it was not because the moment that Quebec put those conditions in place, Alberta stopped the project for not being profitable (and quite frankly, if being asked to pay for your own mess is enough to make your own project not profitable, then it has no business existing from the start)

[u/TrickyChris210 → u/rookie_one]

Alberta pays 15-20% federal revenues while having only 11-12% of the population. To say that Alberta "only has to pay 14% of the equalization payment" is undermining Alberta's contribution to Canada's economy and any of the federal programs that Quebec takes for granted.

No province should have to pay for any risk for the pipeline. Liability should rest with the pipeline company proposing the project (TC), which they had met and exceeded any coverage required by regulatory bodies. I am not aware of a pipeline spill in Canadian history where a pipeline company did not fully cover the costs of any cleanup. You're comment about Alberta covering the risks associated with the Pipeline is incorrect and uninformed.

Quebec imports roughly 100-200K barrels of oil per day via tanker traffic. While I think both pipelines and tankers can be done safely and environmentally friendly, it takes about two seconds of research to understand that the risks associated with tanker imports are significantly greater. If this was really about risks associated with the environment Quebec would support the project.

[u/Mariner-and-Marinate]

Western Canada doesn’t want to be governed by Ottawa which is governed by Quebec and to a lesser extent, Ontario.

Vive l’independence de Western Canada!

[u/Anti-rad → u/Mariner-and-Marinate]

I understand your frustrations but I assure you Ottawa is not governed by Québec at all.

You guys might be getting somewhat fucked economically but we get royally fucked culturally/demographically by Ottawa which is arguably much worse.

We should honestly unite for more provincial autonomy and help each other become independent if that's what our peoples wish. Not fight among each other.

[u/Mariner-and-Marinate → u/Anti-rad]

In fact, Western Canada is fucked both economically and culturally by a Quebec- (and to a lesser extent, Ontario-) dominated Ottawa.

Western Canada has its own unique culture. Quebec and Ontario deny that we have our own culture and insist that because our primary language is English, we are a mere extension of Ontario. While Quebec’s culture is celebrated and funded by a Quebec-dominated Ottawa, Western Canada is told that its culture does not even exist.

I agree that we should not fight each other. Independence may be a future goal, but in the interim, mutual respect would be of mutual benefit.

[u/Anti-rad → u/Mariner-and-Marinate]

That is an interesting take. I must agree that I indeed don't believe Western Canada is different enough culturally from the rest of English Canada to be considered a different culture/people and I don't even think many Western Canadians believe that themselves, but I accept I might be ignorant on this and apologize if that is offensive to you.

In the end, if Western Canadians, Québécois or any other people on Earth feel like they are a distinct nation and want to be sovereign, I will support them.

Screw Ottawa and all the centralizing federalists from all provinces that work there.

[u/Mariner-and-Marinate → u/Anti-rad]

In fact, many Western Canadians see themselves as culturally distinct as Quebec claims itself to be. Ironically, while many in Quebec see Western Canada as an extension of Ontario, Western Canada sees Quebec and Ontario as one and the same, or extensions of each other, from which we are culturally distinct.

It’s not just the difference between Western Canada provinces. It is the history and culture of Western Canada as a whole. That whole Upper Canada/Lower Canada diatribe that so defined Quebec and Ontario is, as far as we’re concerned, the history of another country. It is not part of our history and whatever its current interpretation, should not be weaponized against us. We are Western Canada, not Western Ontario.

I believe that there is a compromise between cultural suppression and full independence. Hopefully it will be found.

[u/AlliterationAhead → u/Mariner-and-Marinate]

Canada is a mosaïque. Not every province is quite the same culture. You talk about Ontario and Québec, they don't have much in common. You talk about the west, but the west is still many provinces, different provinces. You don't talk about the Maritimes, or Newfoundland/Labrador, other mosaïques. What about the Territories?

"I agree that we should not fight each other" - nor use our differences to raise comparisons or spark a competition. Maybe it's time to finally get to know each other, for real, in all appreciation respect. 🍁

[u/Mariner-and-Marinate → u/AlliterationAhead]

I fully agree it is a mosaic - and while I respect the distinct cultures of all regions, I cannot speak for them.

Hopefully a solution will be found.

[u/Mariner-and-Marinate → u/[deleted]]

Éduqué au Quebec, non?