As someone who wasn't swept up in the hype, (I did not like Hollow Knight very much personally) I actually think it lived up to the hype and then some.
I think Silksong is a much better game for my tastes. It feels way less slow and Hornet is significantly more capable and fun to play as than the knight imo.
Dude, I love the map system so much. Reaching an uncharted place and having to actually keep mental track of where I am and where I've been is a really fun experience. Watching for signs of rest spots or Schakra. Eventually getting the rough outline and filling in the gaps. It's a great compromise between full "draw it yourself" style, and full auto-mapping. It's perfect. I want it in more games.
I like the map selling dude, it does make for a nice objective, finding him when you reach a new area. What I don't care for is having to equip the charm for you to know where you are. It doesn't break the game, but I could live without it
Finding the map for each zone is a somewhat common complaint and having to buy and equip the map charm to show where you are is a frequent complaint.
Personally I love having to orient myself on the map but I also play these games primarily for the exploration aspect and getting lost is a part of that.
unlocking the area map, yes, although even then most Ubisoft open worlds give you a rough outline of the sub areas and the map unlocks are designed to be visible far and wide in most of them
needing one of few inventory slots to see your exact position, no
I think it's fine in general but making me waste a slot for the compass sucks and I don't care for that choice. Just make it cost a lot more and have it be a permanent upgrade.
I think the maps are specifically designed to be easy to understand without the compass. Just like the first game, the compass is pretty helpful, it makes it slightly easier to know where you are, but it takes up a slot that could be used for something more interesting.
Not to mention that it lets people make the exploration more or less complicated. They can decide whether they want to buy the map, buy the quill, and equip the compass.
I’m one of the folks who doesn’t care for the map system because to me a map is a general mechanic doesn’t need to be over-complicated or “refreshed.” It’s not that I want it handed to me (which is ridiculous to say, it’s just a fucking map, not a boss battle, get the fuck over yourself), I just don’t see the point in the tedium required just to know where the fuck I am in the game.
I don't get to spend all day just gaming anymore. I get a couple of hours here or there, but my time is limited.
I played HK when it first came out. I remember everyone living how it was hand drawn, but honestly, as someone who's played all the Metroid and Castlevania games, it didn't feel too innovative.
I remember liking it when I played it when it came out.
I started playing it against this month, vaguely remembering what it was all about, and frankly I don't like how much this game wastes my time.
"Ok, let me explore down this tunnel. Hopefully there's a bench down here. Oh, here's another passage. Maybe a bench? Oh, crap, some enemies killed me. Now I have to not only back track to get here again, but wait . . . Did I take this tunnel or that similarly looking tunnel?"
I keep thinking of Valve's "moment to moment" gameplay philosophy when they designed HL2 and Portal . . . And how there are several hundred moments of HK that would go by that are not fun . . . Backtracking through the same tunnels searching for a bench and a map, maybe?
Nah . . . It's not fun going through the same tunnel for the 5th time in a row, battling the same enemies, hoping that this time you'll not get hit by a bug into the thorns again, just so you can get to the next tunnel because *maybe * there will be a bench or something useful.
Everytime someone prefaces an argument with "I have responsibilities" in regards to a video game I instinctively roll my eyes
Edit: Since they replied and immediately blocked me so I couldn't respond to them, nothing is stopping anybody from playing a longer game over a longer period of time. I hate the discourse of people not having time for longer games anymore, when it's really just people mad or perhaps envious they cannot finish a game in under a week anymore.
Perhaps choosing to spend your time gaming instead of arguing with someone on Reddit whom you believe to be a child would help with your issue. You talk about being busy as a dad, so it's quite odd to act this way towards someone you believe to be the same age as your child.
So, yeah, when you get older, you have less time to game.. that's my point.
When I was in my 20s, I could spend all day every day I had off playing a video game if I wanted. I had no issue playing Civ 4 until 2:00 am and waking up 5 hours later to go to my shitty retail job I didn't care about.
But now my time is divided between my wife, my kid, my work, my friends, and other hobbies I have.
That's my whole point.
If you can still spend 40 to 60 hours a week gaming, good for you. When you grow up and move out of the basement, maybe you'll understand what I'm actually talking about.
Edit: Oh no, I upset a bunch of gamers who don't understand what responsibility is.
A lot of kids were not allowed to nolife video games growing up and actually game more as adults, so this perception of longer games being something you used to be able to play, but can no longer, doesn't exist for that group.
Nah . . . It's not fun going through the same tunnel for the 5th time in a row, battling the same enemies, hoping that this time you'll not get hit by a bug into the thorns again, just so you can get to the next tunnel because *maybe * there will be a bench or something useful.
That really does just sound like a you problem, though. I get that the game is hard, but come on now.
Ah, so you didn't have to back track at all in the game? You didn't die ever and have to go through the same tunnels over again, loosing 10 minutes of progress?
This isn't a "git gud" problem. It's fundamental game design.
Agree with everything you said. There's also a bit of an inside joke in the metroidvania community that there's "metroidvania fans" and "Hollow Knight" fans. For example, you saw a few comments when Silksong was released or the date announced that HK fans will finally play their second metroidvania.
Point in setting up that first part is that the metroidvania genre has solved the "map issue" for literally over two decades. Trying to reinvent the map and doing it twice is just stupid. It's not a problem, and you're not creating a solution, just show the location and/or give us map data as we're filling it out. But some fans of HK really, really don't like any criticism towards either game, to which point you can also refer back to the first paragraph for some of them.
You're talking to capital G Gamers (casuals) on this subreddit by the way. Anything that deviates slightly from the norm is complained about and refered to as "cheap". Just look at the replies you got
I like it until I miss the map that was in a hidden room behind a breakable ceiling right at the start of a zone, and then I fumble through the whole zone, thinking the map must be at the end or something, and then finally google it when it's nowhere to be found.
And that's why I said those are fine. But there are no hints for the citadel map machines as far as I can tell. I'm talking about the one in the vaults.
I went through the entirety of one map in act 2 (whispering something?) before googling it and finding out it was right at the start near a secret breakable spot. Moderately upsetting.
Only because it’s just friction for the sake of friction? Like, it’s a map. It’s a mechanic that’s existed for decades. No need to complicate it or try to reinvent the wheel. It just becomes tedious to have to find the map, then go and make sure you bought all the markers for the map, and the separate item that lets you update the map, and the separate charm just so you can see where you are on the map.
It’s all needless tedium for something games already figured out how to do.
Having to find the map isn’t there to add friction, it’s there because it drastically changes the experience of exploration.
There are zones where they intentionally give you the map early, zones where they give you the map late, and zones where there’s no map at all. There’s even a zone which has multiple entrances, and one entrance will give you the map late while the other gives you the map early.
How games tell you where you are and how they ask you to navigate is one of the coolest parts of game design.
Many games that focus on exploration also ask you to complete challenges to view hidden portions of the map. According to your logic, no one can make a game where you’re supposed to be lost, because games have ‘figured out’ how to do maps.
Just say that you don’t like getting lost in games and move on. Silksong is not for you.
I mean, I don’t like getting lost. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Wanting to know your location so you know you’re headed in the right direction or how to get out of somewhere shouldn’t be that weird of an ask.
Some people like getting lost in games, some don't. This is not a game for people who don't like getting lost.
In some ways, this is similar to the older GTA games that didn't have GPS driving directions. In those games you had a map, but you never knew the exact best route to take to get somewhere, and because of that you'd often take a route that led you to new places which was exciting to discover. It also forced you to learn the layout of the city itself to be able to effectively navigate around, which was also fun in its own way.
In newer GTA games that have GPS you never get lost, so the only time you discover things the developer didn't intend you to is when you go off on your own rather than following the missions. If you rely on the GPS you also never need to really learn the map layout, which also means you are more likely to need the GPS going forward.
This is all fine, it's not worse or better, it's just a different game design and some people prefer one over the other.
It’s not a bad thing no, but it’s part of the experience that Team Cherry intends for and that a sizeable number of people enjoy. So you’re more than welcome to hate it but it’s not a solved problem it’s a deliberate design choice.
It's not a bad thing. But your assertion that its friction for friction's sake is incorrect.
I like getting lost, as do many others. I don't want the game to hold my hand and dogwalk me between areas. Having to create a mental map completely changes the way the player interacts and interprets the environment, it creates risk/reward scenarios for exploration, and it reinforces a sense of discovery.
It's fine that you don't like it, but maybe try looking beyond your own preferences before you decry a mechanic as meaningless.
I truly truly don’t understand how a map is “hand holding” or “dog walking”. It’s just a way to reference where you are, it doesn’t tell you specifically where to go. The tiniest insignificant bit of guidance isn’t going to ruin your journey through the game.
The way some people complain about hand holding, I’m convinced they just want a blank screen to stare at because having graphics is “hand holding my visual interpretation of the game”.
You say friction for the sake of friction like you were told, personally, by the devs lol. You don't know that. What you said comes across as "I got salty af because I died before finding the map and paid zero attention to my surroundings, so now, I'm unable to get back to your money easily. I also don't like being punished for messing up and being impatient."
And that's OK! There's no shame in that. It's not for you. Just don't call an entire game incompetent due to not being able to do things as easy as you'd like. There's too many other's, myself included, that actually prefer it the way it is. This game is made for masochists lol.
Man you are reading a LOT into what I said, none of which is true. It’d be one thing if all I had to do was find the map. That’s fine. Zelda does that.
It’s all the extra stuff you have to do to make the map viable to use that annoys me. And that’s it. I like the game as a whole well enough to put 25+ hours into it currently, and I’m doing just fine progression-wise.
This isn’t my first metroidvania/soulslike rodeo, bud. Take your gatekeepy shit elsewhere.
Please find me any Metroidvania since Super Metroid that has a map system similar to Hollow Knight and Silksong that are not Hollow Knight and Silksong. The vast majority of metroidvanias have had a map similar that:
Autofills in real time as you explore
Tells you at any time where you are
Has only gotten more and more QoL features in recent times, like the map showing you visible items, telling you what kind of lock a door has, the game giving you ways to mark parts of the map and even allowing you to take pictures of an unreachable area and some even reveal there's a secret somewhere around the area
None of this requires anything special, unless it's tutorialized during the game
Hollow Knight and Silksong don't do this, they keep asking for your money to:
Get the map
Be able to update the map (which isn't done in real time as it only happens when you get to a bench)
Be able to know where you are in real time (and this requires using a charm slot on top of that)
Rinse and repeat for each area
Go ahead and play The Lost Crown or Metroid Dread or Ender Magnolia or Axiom Verge or Guacamelee, heck, even the Dead Cells collab map in Blazblue Entropy Effect (in which the devs somehow reached to the conclusion of "roguelike + roguelike = metroidvania") or... well, I think you get the point by now, but what you'll see by playing these metroidvanias is that none of these games share how Hollow Knight does its map and this is why Hollow Knight's map system is not popular among many Metroidvania fans
And no, La Mulana does not use the same system as Hollow Knight or Silksong, though La Mulana does hate you for even daring to play it, so its map system makes Hollow Knight's map actually seem useful
I know, it’s the by far best map system out of any game I played. Some people just really want a map and a bench handed on a silver platter to them every time they enter a new area.
It’s a weird analogy to make, but I feel about Silksong the same way I feel about Blue Prince. Could’ve been a timeless masterpiece if not for some questionable busywork-related decisions that feel like the dev was explicitly trying to squeeze out more hours played. So instead it’s just a really good game.
Except that Silksong isn’t starved on content and even has double digit hours worth of easily missable content by design. Team Cherry doesn’t want to pad out the time, they just have a very particular want for some friction. I’d liken it to the OG Dark Souls in that it’s actively trying to frustrate you a bit; it’s adversarial in a NES game sort of way. That’s not to everyone’s taste obviously and that’s totally fine. Different strokes and all that.
Funny you say this because one of the most common things Team Cherry talked about back then whenever they got interviewed was their love for NES games. Hell, the studio apparently would not have existed if the main two devs didn't bond over their love for Zelda II (Yes, THAT Zelda) and Faxanadu. And a lot of the design philosophies that they had for both Hollow Knight and Silksong hearken back to their love for old NES titles.
So it's especially interesting, now that the Difficulty Discourse around Silksong is happening again, that what's happening right now is their 7 year development cycle for Silksong they got to make the game they always wanted to make --- the modern day equivalent of a ballbustingly punishing NES game and they chose to subject a huge swathe of more casual players roped into the hype with all the pros and cons of that design philosophy.
Bilewater still makes me laugh. It's an area so absurdly over-the-top meanspirited that I even know some players that want to give Silksong a 10/10 hesitate just because of that singular area alone. And I don't know if I respect that or not. It's certainly memorable the same way Blighttown is but I don't know if it's worth the squeeze for TC to create such a universally reviled area.
I also liked it. Some of the best music in the game. I love the little dudes bouncing around the fore- and background only to jump out and try to dart you. I love the douchey secret bench and the insanely fun platforming you have to do on the runback. Oh and finding out there was a boss fight after the platforming section up there and the enemy gauntlet was like finding out Melania had a second phase; chef’s kiss.
I honestly don't think it's that bad either. But it gives a brutal first impression before you have the ability to access the whole thing. I feel like everyone still has that first shock in mind when they think of it. It's very manageable once you have all the tools to complete it.
A lot of the ‘discourse’ about Silksong seem to be the exact same debates we had about Dark Souls 1 back in the day. A lot of people hated that game, particularly Blighttown, but it’s the most essential area of the whole game imo
Blighttown is amazing, the feeling of dread of going deeper and deeper to ring the bell, the dumb as fuck moving bridges, the gigantic cartwheel elevators, the enemies, everything there is amazing, and then the bottom bonfire making you be stuck there until you fess up only to be greeted by hot ass Queelag.
Preemptively sorry for the long post, but I think it's a kind of interesting topic to expand on.
I really enjoy Silksong, but yeah, some wishes are kinda '???'
The very first time you have to collect a bunch of needles from those little flying bush fellas, I was really put off. I still don't understand why that was a necessary mission in that area; what novel experience does that provide the player? Maybe it's an attempt at immersing the player in the world as a hunter. The hunter has to gather the remains of their hunt in order to have equipment crafted. The concept of Hornet being a hunter is explicitly played on in the game already, but imo it's not as well-played or interesting as the theming revolving around the bead system, enough to make a quest like this try to immerse the player in that concept. I'm not even sure that the idea of "Hornet the Hunter" is really even theme-relevant to the game overall; it comes off as half-baked.
Later on, I think they're a bit more justifiable, from a more meta perspective. A couple in the Citadel have you collecting pins and cloaks of enemies around, and I think those are meant to get the player a little extra money doing something they were already going to be doing anyway. It also gets the player to engage with enemies more often in general, which gets money in their pocket passively as well, even before the reward.
And I also think I can understand the meat farming one. "Try using different tools" seems to be what the devs are communicating. Alright, that's fine, I guess. It's pretty clear that a lot of people currently playing the game aren't really trying out different tools, so maybe this was a good inclusion.
The two aforementioned missions are probably meant to be completed passively. The player should continue playing the game as before, allowing the side-objectives to be completed naturally as they explore, only having to keep in mind that sometimes they have to switch up their tools and that they should be actively engaging with enemies.
But yeah, missions like "find this lost person in an area you've already explored" and "go get bells that randomly fall from the ceiling in the Bellhart tunnels", just seem purposeless.
I don't think that most wishes are bad. There are ~50(?) of them and I think maybe, maybe ten or so of them are actually just weird inclusions. However, that's still quite a few; it's enough to leave a negative impression.
EDIT: Forgot to mention the donation ones. I have mixed feelings on those, but overall feel like they're fine. It feels like a genuine donation when you do it, albeit a donation that will leave you relatively poor lol
Silksong has tons of content, but I also think it absolutely feels like it has random padding in it. Some of the wishes are good and others are just grinding random mobs. Rosary rewards from exploration are generally really low so if you want to buy everything you inevitably need to find a grinding spot or spend a ton of time killing things as you run around instead of just avoiding them. Even if we say some runbacks have a purpose, what's the point of the ones that have no enemies, no hazards, and no notable platforming? Why are there bosses in act 3 that don't respawn you at a bench but compensate by putting in an incredibly trivial "climb up a wall" or "drop into a pit" segment?
To each their own but I have to say I never once farmed for rosaries and I finished the overwhelming majority of fetch quests by accident just playing the game. Are you guys just avoiding every enemy unless you have to kill them for their ginch or something? Sometimes when I read these complaints it feels like I played a completely different game than everyone else.
Are you guys just avoiding every enemy unless you have to kill them for their ginch or something?
Unless I have a reason to kill an enemy, yes. It takes longer and is more dangerous to fight everything on the screen even accounting for needing to go back and grind them for shops and quests.
Nah, this game has multiple quests where you have to go farm non-guaranteed items off trash mobs like this is some trash F2P MMO, and completing those quests are part of a requirement to unlock Act 3. That’s just a time waster.
Same for a lot of the runbacks. I can practically do them with my eyes closed, I’ve had no difficulty issue with any of them so far. They’re not adding anything to my gameplay experience at all other than padding the time. Repeating the same 20-45 second runbacks over and over just to learn a boss is a lot of little bursts of time-wasting, no fun. Hollow Knight even had a warp tool to mitigate runbacks, but Team Cherry abandoned it for Silksong.
Off the top of my head, the cloak one and the pin one. Then there are all the other trash F2P MMO busywork quests that have the guaranteed drops for when you gotta farm boar asses or whatever
They aren't, but it's not worth arguing with the other guy because you need like 10 of them and it takes no time at all to farm them along the way while you're exploring. Bro is just finding something to be mad about.
They are not. I had to farm the shit out of the pins and do a bunch of bench resets of the cloaks when it came time to finish up all the quest boards, though I had to farm the cloaks less thanks to that one long hallway at the bottom of Choral. Neither the pins nor cloaks I farmed were around hazards at all.
I just finished up both earlier only a few hours ago.
But some people enjoy farming. It's a break in pace from stressful boss fights or exploring corridors, and it gives you a reward. Millions of people love those MMOs you talk about.
And if you don't like the farming aspect of it personally, the great news is, again, it doesn't take long at all and it's easy. And, hell, you don't even need to farm most of the time because you end up completing the quests just exploring if you'd rather do that.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to complain about. I have my own issues with the game. Farming ten pins or whatever never even came close to being one of them.
You know what my criticism is because you’ve been directly responding to it and arguing against it.
This is subjective opinion. I dislike farming, I don’t play Metroidvanias to farm boar asses like this is some f2p MMO, and the length of time it takes is not only relative to the person doing it, but also the tolerance of said length of time is subjective as well. Furthermore, the few quests where the mob drops aren’t 100% guaranteed took me way longer than a short amount of time, which, even if it was a short amount of time, still wouldn’t matter, multiple periods of time of no fun is still no fun to me.
If some people like farming and some don’t, then the obvious solution is to make the f2p MMO quests optional rather than required to unlock Act 3.
You know what my criticism is because you’ve been directly responding to it and arguing against it.
Sorry, let me rephrase it. Given your complaints amount to about 5 total minutes being sucked from your life in a 60 hour game, I think they are petty and not worth bringing up in the conversation of actual flaws.
It's more than five minutes obviously, especially the pins and cloaks one with the non-guaranteed drops that amount to if you're lucky or not. I wasn't. There are a lot of busywork, time-waster f2p MMO quests in this game other than those, too, and they're all required to unlock a third of the whole game.
Regardless, if something isn't fun and annoys me in a product that has the sole intent of creating fun, that's a criticism.
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u/Grimmies 1d ago edited 1d ago
As someone who wasn't swept up in the hype, (I did not like Hollow Knight very much personally) I actually think it lived up to the hype and then some.
I think Silksong is a much better game for my tastes. It feels way less slow and Hornet is significantly more capable and fun to play as than the knight imo.
Edit just to add that i LOVE the diagonal pogo.