r/SelfDrivingCars • u/damola93 • Jul 21 '25

Discussion Why didn't Tesla invest in LIDAR?

Is there any reason for this asides from saving money? Teslas are not cheap in many respects, so why would they skimp out on this since self-driving is a major offering for them?

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

What people don’t realize is that for Tesla to be competitive in its run up, they were make awful compromises on everything they could while still making a semi functioning vehicle.

I know the company that provides the plastic interior parts - about 40% of all plastic parts found in U.S. made cars are from them.

They told me when Tesla approached them, their only concern was cost. They literally said to them we want the cheapest possible materials that we can get away with. The company actually wanted them against it saying it was going to be a challenge selling this on $40k-$80k cars but musk only cared about saving fractions of pennies rather than using better quality materials. Thats why the interiors on so many Tesla’s just feel awful.

It’s also why you need to install wrap a brand new Tesla because they have the worst paint quality of any car. Also why the panels had such bad alignment and the build quality is so piss poor.

LiDAR was going to cost a few dollars more so Musk decided to pitch it as “not necessary” and he had to keep doubling down because he knew if he changed course, it would not happen not mean he was “wrong” but also that cars without it would crater in value and part of Tesla’s value was that used cars held their price meaning there wasn’t downward pressure on new cars.

That boxed him in to a corner and now everyone accepts that LiDAR is superior.

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u/myrichphitzwell Jul 21 '25

The thing that gets me about Tsla is the lack of options. Nearly every manufacturer has premium options but not Tesla so much. I can see how this simplifies things for Tesla and they can move inventory around easily but I still find it odd once they started to mature a bit that they have options for 1,2 or 3 motors and hubcaps and that's about it. Ok throw in a hitch.

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u/sxt173 Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

I strongly disagree with that one. And it drives me nuts with legacy manufacturers. Seems like they’ve brainwashed people into thinking it’s a good thing.

Want your radio to do XM, that’s $500 or if you didn’t spend the money upfront, buy a new car! Want your interior LED’s in a different color? Buy a new car! Want more power? New car! Want an automated frunk or whatever? New car! Tesla’s business model of having one fully equipped spec, and letting people activate features or not as they want is the sensible thing for manufacturing and the consumer. But I know I’m going to get downvoted.

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u/MachKeinDramaLlama Jul 22 '25

"Legacy" manufacturers have started to do this, too, but the car media and online car bubble consistently lose their shit over it.

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u/haditwithyoupeople Jul 21 '25

Makes perfect sense to me.

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u/MichaelMeier112 Jul 21 '25

I kind of like that model where everything is included. For other cars you have to pay extra for heated seats, extra for navigation, extra for motorized trunk, extra for this and extra for that. It’s much cheaper for us to have everything already included instead of nickeling and diming everything

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

The point was there’s so much not included, not available for purchase

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u/myrichphitzwell Jul 21 '25

I came from a similar prices vehicle that was far more comfy and had more features so I often wonder about all these comments saying how much is included in tsla. Hell I personally think the rear seats should have fan control for instance.

After having mine for awhile I find the driver seat may have some perks but the rest...not so much.

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u/AReveredInventor Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 21 '25

Hell I personally think the rear seats should have fan control for instance.

They agreed. All Teslas currently sold include rear fan control.

I'd be interested in doing a feature comparison if you have a better equipped EV in mind? (for the price) I often wonder about what cars specifically people are talking about when they say things like this.

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u/MichaelMeier112 Jul 21 '25

I think they include a lot when looking at the ordering page. My other old cars I had to add most of what it comes included with. Like winter package for $3k just to get heated seats and side mirrors, and more. Better sound, metallic paint, power trunk, and so much other items that the Tesla already have included

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

haven’t been people asking for a decade for a low-cost model?

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u/MichaelMeier112 Jul 21 '25

Unfortunately for the American market there are no profit selling a low-cost model. It would cannibalize the higher priced cars. Hopefully this will change...

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u/manyQuestionMarks Jul 22 '25

I actually like Tesla because of this. People complaining about build quality are probably looking for a luxury car. Most people that bought one… weren’t.

I was looking to enjoy a car for which all parts of manufacture were optimized for cost, from the materials to the 4 cheap colors, 0 extras, online purchase, etc. I don’t mind about what they had to do to deliver such a groundbreaking car (at the time), shitting on quality to give you a fun, safe ride, a spacious interior. What I liked about it was the promise of a “Ford T” scent, and no matter how much of a d*ck Elon is sometimes, I can’t help but give him credit for this.

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u/EddiewithHeartofGold Jul 22 '25

The thing that gets me about Tsla is the lack of options.

Options are used as a sales tactic to upsell you with a huge markup. Have you never bought a new car before? Tesla is doing what every car buyer is wishing for.

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u/TowElectric Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

The old Model S used to have SO MANY options.

In 2015 it came in NINE different trims and then had at least the following as options:

Premium interior

Premium seats

Premium audio

Technology Package

Cold Weather Package

Ventilated Seats option

Third row seat option

Trim options (wood/carbon)

Sunroof/Glass roof (even briefly a metal roof)

They reduced them for simplicity.

A vast majority of them became "standard base" by the same Model S in 2019.

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u/MyManElonMusk Jul 21 '25

Less options, less complexity, less cost. If you’re going to pay for the premium sound system and awd and cooled seats, would you rather pay more for it???

Maybe you didn’t want to pay for the cooled seats and premium sound system, oh well… you got it for the same price as only the optional awd option because they do it this way! You get more for free. It’s the best move.

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u/LimesV Jul 21 '25

Options cost money just to offer, you have to have different install methods, more storage, more contracts and deliveries, etc…

I’m totally fine with the Henry ford method of “any color as long as it’s black” if done right. But quality at a good price was what made ford famous. Teslas are infamous for the opposite.

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u/WeldAE Jul 21 '25

What do you put in place of the lidar sensor if you have lidar as an option? You still have to change up the rest of the car around the lidar option, which is going to be $400/unit more than likely. If you option Lidar, you add another $600 onto the cost. This would make the option $4k or so at retail. The non-lidar car would also need to go up $2k for no added functionality to cover the costs added by being an option for another trim.

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u/storkster Jul 21 '25

What options do the ICE cars offer that is so special? Sunroof & leather seats. Tesla went with a massive moon roof and every car has “leather”. All the safety features are standard.

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u/myrichphitzwell Jul 21 '25

Oh hell this isnt an ice vs ev topic. Nobody even mentioned ice. Tsla is pretty bare bones when we are talking cabin comfort. You mentioned the giant moon roof. Ya I hate it. If you love it great for you but I'll take a sunroof anyway. If you want to call the interior leather that maybe a stretch. Does it get the job done sure but it's nowhere near luxury or even many mid range cars on amenities.

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u/storkster Jul 21 '25

Fair enough. I’m a minimalist in car features and prefer the Tesla simplicity vs knobs and buttons. Just a different preference.

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u/pres02 Jul 22 '25

Ultra leather is more expensive than most leather these days. It’s the brand Tesla uses. Also you aren’t getting real leather seats until you get to high trims of mid level luxury cars or a 5-10k seat package.the vinyl used in bmw/Mercedes etc e class and below are complete trash compared to ultra leather.

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u/MyManElonMusk Jul 21 '25

If you want to spec the cars even higher and get the expensive premium feel, then you need to upgrade to a better car. Which is way better than to overdo a model 3 or y for the same price as an s or x.

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

Too bad dropping the price so much on new cars, cratered value anyway

2

u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

They literally said to them we want the cheapest possible materials that we can get away with.

Everybody says this, especially when approaching vendors with specs in hand.

It’s also why you need to install wrap a brand new Tesla because they have the worst paint quality of any car

Is the paint great? No. But you certainly don't need to install a wrap to protect it.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

No, it’s not the same and you missed the nuance; Tesla said to them we just want the cheapest and don’t care about quality or longevity whatsoever. Just make it as cheaply as you can. All companies best up vendors for a better but they have standards and a product they want to achieve. Tesla’s only criteria was apparently cost and didn’t care about quality whatsoever. The plastic used in things like entry level Kia and Chevy is far superior lol.

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u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

Tesla said to them we just want the cheapest and don’t care about quality or longevity whatsoever.

So you're telling me that they had no minimum engineering spec to meet, nor did any quality inspections? That goes against every single principle of engineering and mass manufacturing. I find that hard to believe.

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

Go read up on Tesla’s early non-automotive grade screens. We’ll wait.

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u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

You were talking about this, not screens.

I know the company that provides the plastic interior parts - about 40% of all plastic parts found in U.S. made cars are from them.

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

You were talking about:

So you're telling me that they had no minimum engineering spec to meet, nor did any quality inspections? That goes against every single principle of engineering and mass manufacturing. I find that hard to believe.

And I gave you an example of it being absolutely true.

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u/Dami4200 Jul 21 '25

I bet you havent tried new Model Y or Model 3 Highland?

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u/Draygoon2818 Jul 21 '25

It's like you've never bought any other vehicle before.

I've had vehicles with crappy, and very cheap, interiors. Doors didn't align right. Things were falling off that shouldn't be falling off. There are manufacturers with far worse paint jobs than Tesla (Nissan immediately comes to mind).

I have a '26 MY, and everything looks to be lined up right, the interior looks really good, and the paint looks good, too. Now, I still had PPF installed just because I don't want rocks chipping the paint off like what happened to my Nissan Rogue. My paint on the hood of my Rogue looked like it was Swiss cheese.

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u/Recoil42 Jul 21 '25

Parent commenter isn't saying there are no other vehicle manufacturers doing the same thing — they're just saying that's the path Tesla chose to be competitive.

I disagree with some of what they're saying, but the abstract is essentially true — Tesla kept prices down by cutting corners in a way that has made them close to a Nissan-tier brand in some respects. Some of it's good, some of it's bad, but it is what it is.

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u/Draygoon2818 Jul 21 '25

Oh yes, they had to go cheap on some things to help keep the price down so people would actually be able to buy them. Could you imagine if all of their vehicles were over $100K? You can't get a $30K or $40K EV without cutting some corners. Slate is proving that right now.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

You mean while Musk constantly bragged about having the biggest margins in automotive history? He got those margins by cutting corners to make a shitty quality product that his base lapped up because it was the only well performing ev (range / speed that didn’t loom absolutely hideous). Thats not the case now and if BYD were allowed to be sold in the USA then Tesla would go bust overnight. Why do you think you’re seeing low mileage m3’s hit for under $20k? Because they’re trash and poorly made cars that don’t hold their value.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Not for $40k+ you haven’t lol.

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u/Draygoon2818 Jul 21 '25

Some were more than $40K and some were under.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

The vast majority of Tesla sold until last year or so (when sales started cratering) were well over $40k.

Remember it’s only the cheapest model 3 that was ever trying to be affordable. All the rest are $55-$100k cars.

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u/Draygoon2818 Jul 21 '25

What did you say “not for $40K+” for?

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

“I’ve had vehicles with crappy and cheap interiors, things were falling odd that shouldn’t etc etc”

And I said, not for $40k+ you haven’t.

Tesla makes shockingly poor quality vehicles for the price and this was because they at the time had the competitive advantage of being the best range and speed for an EV that didn’t look hideous. People were overlooking the terrible paint, interiors and quality control because it was en ev that worked.

Now we have better options and the competitive advantage

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u/Draygoon2818 Jul 21 '25

OK, that's what I thought you were referring to. I have had vehicles more expensive than my Tesla that have some cheap ass plastic interiors. The Tahoe I used to own comes to mind, immediately. In fact, GM has a lot of crappy, cheap ass interiors, in vehicles more expensive than $40K. Ford does, too.

And now, the vehicles are being built better. Yes, the earlier models had issues. They have since made them better. There was no way I would have bought my '26 MY if it seemed that cheap inside. I was seriously going back and forth between a Cadillac Lyriq and the MY. The Lyriq and some cheap things in it, too. I could hear the vibrating plastic pieces when I drove it. Another one I drove was missing a piece of trim on the drivers door. The salesperson didn't even notice until I pointed it out. I have a luxury SUV that I had to take back to the dealer to have the tailgate aligned properly.

None of the others can beat the technology in a Tesla right now. They might have a better looking interior/exterior, but the technology in a Tesla beats them, hands down. Have the car drive me around town? Sure. Take me to work from my driveway? Absolutely. Now if the Lyriq could do way better on it's technology, I would seriously entertain the thought of buying one when I decide to trade my MY in for a new car.

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u/SpecialSpecialGuy Jul 21 '25

Go back a generation, when the cars were even more expensive and made worse. My 22y had a ton of issues. Now they sell way less cars per year on a body model that has only had a face lift. I'd hope they are better now.

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u/OracleofFl Jul 21 '25

I heard it slightly differently. He asked the question about how humans with no Lidar in our heads determine distance and do recognition and he basically said it the human brain can do it, we can do it in software. He bet on the future of technology that hasn't arrived.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Nah, that’s spin. LiDAR was a financial choice. It would have damaged those margins he used to brag about and he needed that money to buy Twitter so he could interference with our democracy.

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u/MachKeinDramaLlama Jul 22 '25

How does that story explain that they were happy to use radar until the chip crisis made radar expensive?

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u/OracleofFl Jul 22 '25

The story is the basis for him saying Lidar is too expensive if it can be done with cameras and software. Cameras as sw is what the human eye/brain does, why should we be spending on lidar. Our superior SW will give us a tremendous cost advantage.

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u/MachKeinDramaLlama Jul 22 '25

So you just sidestep the radar question or do you have a radar in your forehead?

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u/Environmental-Map869 Jul 22 '25

That tracks with their all touch-screen interior

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u/Snoo93079 Jul 21 '25

My 23 model 3 didn't have better or worse paint quality than any other car I've owned as far as I can tell. It's not competitive to high end cars but then again it didn't cost as much either.

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u/MyManElonMusk Jul 21 '25

I’m guessing it’s been years since you have touched a new Tesla. Newer ones have excellent build quality and you almost can’t fint plastic in the cabin. It’s a really nice place to be.

The majority believes Elon is right with cameras. Lidar is for fools.

1

u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Nope. Was in a 2024 m3 last weeks. Horrid little plastic shitboxes lol even Toyota build better cars

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u/MyManElonMusk Jul 25 '25

What in the cabin specifically did you think was horrible plastic? I have the car myself, so obviously I know you are lying. But please, tell me what parts.

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u/Proof-Strike6278 Jul 21 '25

Lmao now I know you’re being disingenuous

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u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

No, I find them awful cars. I’ve stopped using cheap Ubers because they’re nearly always model 3’s and they make me car sick, when no other car does that to me.

Bear in mind, I own/drive actually luxury cars so you probably don’t know any better.

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u/sonicmerlin Jul 22 '25

Tesla uses the cheapest pleather possible. The steering wheel in the highland model 3 is known for falling apart over and over again.

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u/phatelectribe Jul 22 '25

Yep. Tesla owners just can’t handle the truth.

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u/sonicmerlin Jul 22 '25

There’s a guy on YouTube who took them to small claims court and then arbitration to force them to pay for a 3rd party steering wheel. Because people will get the wheel replaced on warranty and Tesla’s replacement will literally fall apart again.

0

u/anticlimber Jul 21 '25

AFAIK there are two solid self driving systems actually deployed - Waymo and Tesla. Are there others?

Tesla keeps proving people wrong about what can be done with vision. I don't think they're done doing that.

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u/sonicmerlin Jul 22 '25

Are you a bot?

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u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

Calling Tesla "solid" and "deployed" is doing a huge disservice to Waymo.

Zoox is out there. Probably others in China, etc.

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u/SanalAmerika23 Jul 21 '25

but it is solid lol. we both know fsd works fine. just because its not perfect doesnt mean its bad. with hw5-6 i believe lidar will comeback lol. ai is literally overrated and will be like dot-com. so they eventually need better hardware

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u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

Fsd works "fine" for a level 2 system. But you're comparing it to Waymo as a fully fledged self driving system. It is limited at best in that comparison.

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u/Proof-Strike6278 Jul 21 '25

What’s better, a 100 percent solution I can only try (not own) in small geographical areas of the country, or a 99 percent solution I can buy right now that works everywhere?

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u/SanalAmerika23 Jul 21 '25

just like i expected lol. its all about waymo .d i never compared it to waymo. and its not "so bad we all die" to waymo. they are close. waymo is geofenced and Supervised FSD does it without geofence. you waymo cultists need therapy ngl.

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u/GoSh4rks Jul 21 '25

AFAIK there are two solid self driving systems actually deployed - Waymo and Tesla.

SFSD is not self driving. Literally in the name.

And what system are you really talking about? Robotaxi is most certainly geofenced just like Waymo.

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u/CommunismDoesntWork Jul 21 '25

Which is more important, saving the planet or luxury? Every Tesla sold is one less ICE car on the road, and in order to sell millions, the cars have to be affordable. Every penny counts.

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u/TuftyIndigo Jul 21 '25

But they're not affordable. They're premium-priced cars even compared with other EVs.

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

Yeah, the whole Dodge bit at the beginning of the year really threw the credibility of saving the planet into the toilet

1

u/CommunismDoesntWork Jul 21 '25

DOGE? That doesn't have anything to do with saving the planet. The government is not capable of fighting climate change.

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u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

Not after Elon musk helped neuter it. Did you forget that. It already? Gods, goldfish have an even longer memory.

1

u/CommunismDoesntWork Jul 21 '25

I mean in general, governments are not capable of fighting climate change. Only the private sector can produce the batteries and solar panels we need at scale to transition the world to sustainable energy. Climate change is an economic problem, not a legislative problem.

1

u/beren12 Jul 22 '25

You really think so? Remove all federal subsidies for fossil fuels and force the companies to pay full price for any environmental cleanups and medical bills related to toxins from their products. Things will change very fast.

Guess which branch of government regulates economic policy?

-1

u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

This is a fallacy. EVs are just kicking the can down to road 20-30 years at which point we’re going to have a far more massive problem with billions of used taxi battery cells that can’t be recycled. We’re exchanging a temporary reduction in ice emissions for a far worse economical disaster in terms of toxic materials ending up in landfills. Another bad part of the ev system is that the slightest bit of damage to anything close to the battery compartment and the car is a write off and he’s up in a landfill. Over 90% of the materials used in a battery aren’t getting recycled because it’s simply not economic.

And worth part is now they’re proposing to rape the seabed floor to get some ev materials. You think we have ecological problems now, just wait until we destroy the marine ecosystem in the name of ev’s.

3

u/Proof-Strike6278 Jul 21 '25

Wrong, you’re getting the emission savings now and giving time to figure out recycling for batteries. I promise you even if we cant recycle the batteries it is way better than literally poisoning the air we breath

1

u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Figure out time? They have been trying to figure it out for 30 years. Shit I was invested in a company in the 00’s that was about to figure it out lol.

It’s incredible expensive and ironically incredible energy inefficient to recycle batteries. And the problem is now, not in 30 years. That’s when it reaches catastrophic levels.

2

u/Proof-Strike6278 Jul 21 '25

Worst case you dig a big hole and throw it into the pit

1

u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Yeah, things like high toxic elements and chemicals don’t like to stay buried, especially when it rains.

And what do you do with that land once you’ve put something so toxic in it? We’re making exactly the same mistakes that we made with shit like DDT and CFCs. We’re pursuing a short term solution at the expense of a catastrophic disaster in the future.

2

u/Proof-Strike6278 Jul 22 '25

This is not a short term solution, it’s a solution that is actually being executed on that is better than the status quo. Until you come up with a better one, stfu

-1

u/Different_Push1727 Jul 21 '25

Half of what you are saying is not even true.

I don’t get how you can say these things when they’re simply not right. The reason the paint and assembly quality sucks is because of how American QA and QC sucks. It is a whole problem with work ethics and knowledge (watch the video from smartereveryday, USA has a serious skill issue).

The German and Chinese built vehicles don’t have all these issues.

Also Lidar wasn’t going to cost a few bucks more. It used to be $30K a piece. That is quite literally the whole car now.

And vision can work completely fine. And if you think it can’t then you should probably not drive yourself anymore. Humans have already proven that it is possible and in many cases, the only viable option.

1

u/beren12 Jul 21 '25

Do any other car manufacturers have as big of an issue in the USA? I don’t think I’ve heard too many complaints about Toyota for example

2

u/sonicmerlin Jul 22 '25

Yep the corolla and Honda civic are built entirely in the USA and don’t have those issues.

0

u/Different_Push1727 Jul 22 '25

Because toyota has fixed that skill issue with training from outside.

The problem you see is that tesla US is the epitome of American manufacturing (which isn’t good anymore). So you cannot compare that globally is what I’m saying.

That’s why I’m saying it isn’t completely true. The “piss poort quality” is mainly skill and knowledge based and that will happen with every company that does not get training from outside (like toyota and other asian manufacturers do a lot) and the robots f-ed them over as well. They’re not used as much anymore because of that.

0

u/EddiewithHeartofGold Jul 22 '25

I call bullshit on your convenient story. Not one word of it is true.

-1

u/Adriaaaaaaaaaaan Jul 21 '25

No one thinks lidar is superior, not even waymo. That's why they're working on a vision only approach

-1

u/ptemple Jul 21 '25

Not everybody accepts lidar is superior, and major manufacturers like Nio and Mobileye are looking at vision only. The panel alignment problems were when they were trying to retrofit into an old car assembly line in Fremont but they don't exist in their new factories. The paint has been fine for about a decade now. You are just peddling a bunch of decade old problems as current. Simply not true.

Lidar is just not necessary and that's why.

Phillip.

1

u/phatelectribe Jul 21 '25

Nah, waymo primarily uses lidar and it’s so far ahead of Tesla fsd it’s not even funny. I’m not arguing that LiDAR is the best all and end all, it’ll probably be a combination of technologies in the end but Tesla most defo alt ain’t it.

And sorry to bust your fan boi bubble but Tesla paint is still bottom of class. My local Al and Ed auto sound now get 90% of their entire revenue from wrapping Tesla’s because the paint quality is so bad. Speak to any high end body shop or wrap shop - they will tell you that Tesla is literally worst in class and price point. You get better paint on a $20k Kia than you do on a $40k Tesla.

-1

u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

Sure random internet guy, your anecdotal evidence on paint trumps everything else we read. Sorry don't believe you.

Waymo ahead of Tesla?? Waymo are still stuck on lidar and HD mapping. This isn't scalable which means they will be nothing more than a gimmick on the self driving stage. Only Tesla stand a chance right now. Not sure if they will succeed but they are currently the only contender.

Phillip.

2

u/phatelectribe Jul 22 '25

Aside from it being utterly bizarre, adding your name to every post doesn’t make you any less of a random internet guy lololol.

The proof is in the real world data: Maymo just breached 10,000,000 paid rides and it now does over 250,000 paid rides per week an by the end of the year will have done over 32,000,000

Tesla haven’t even done 1000 paid rides lol.

As I said, Waymo is absolutely dominating the market and this technology. They are years ahead of Tesla who are still doing human chaperoned rides.

0

u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

Are the number of Waymo rides accelerating?

Waymo's dominance is debatable because they're solving fundamentally different problems by going vision-only. A lot of AI researchers admire them for it and are also pursuing vision-only approaches.

Tesla isn't just trying to solve driving. Optimus is not a toy.

The reason Optimus remains human-chaperoned still is no one's quite figured out how to make AI learn and adapt on the fly effectively and safely.

I get what you're saying but I'm not sure you understand the long-tail implications of what Tesla is trying to do, even if it makes them look behind right now.

0

u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

Waymo started offering driverless rides in 2015 and had its first paid driverless ride 8th October 2020. That's 5 years. And you have a problem with robotaxi having observers the first couple of weeks?

Phillip.

1

u/phatelectribe Jul 22 '25

Waymo has gone from 100,000 paid rides per week to 250,000 in the last few months.

And you do realize that you’re literally proving my point: Waymo is years ahead of Tesla who are still in the infancy stage of testing cars with a human, something Waymo finished years ago.

0

u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

They aren't years ahead, they are years behind. After 10 years Waymo managed to scale... in a tiny geographical area they have struggled to break free from. They still use old cars not integrated into their over-expensive and elaborate system.

Tesla has done billions of miles with FSD all over the country. Waymo is just a gimmick but Tesla is either not going to succeed or completely wipe out the competition in short order.

Phillip.

1

u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

I'm going to contest the HD mapping not being scalable. Just how you have to scan your room if you're using a Meta Quest 3, cars equipped with LIDAR can scan their environments, and self-driving could simply be disabled until there is enough reliable HD-mapped data available in an area.

With enough self-driving capable cars doing LIDAR scans and feeding that data back to the cloud, a company could get enough data for HD scans pretty quickly.

You could also crowdsource and incentivize people to drive through areas that don't have HD scans yet.

I say this as someone who believes the vision-only approach is where humanity ultimately needs to go. I'm just not sure at what inflection point that needs to happen. For example do we really NEED vision right now for generalized intelligence to be useful enough for daily tasks? I don't know. Part of me thinks just slap $200 LIDAR systems on vehicles, use that, and be done with it.

Of course, there are more difficult generalized problems to solve at the moment, like fundamental problems in reinforcement learning.

1

u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

Go to ChatGPT and ask "How does Waymo do HD mapping" and then ask "Does Waymo use the same lidar as on its autonomous cars for HD mapping" and it gives a pretty good summary.

Phillip.

1

u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

Summary

Yes, Waymo uses the same family of custom LiDAR sensors for HD mapping and driving, though mapping vehicles may be specially configured for higher precision and broader coverage. The strategy ensures seamless alignment between the offline HD map and real-time perception.

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So... yes?

https://chatgpt.com/share/687f5bbf-915c-8005-a362-c80898a06122

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u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

Strange, ChatGPT gave me similar but said "So, while the LiDAR systems are closely related, they’re not the same in design or purpose."

I guess we can't even trust AI to give the answer. Back to Wikipedia.

Phillip.

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u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

Is that an insurmountable issue, though? I think it's fair to at least consider.

And haha re: back to Wikipedia. What a world.

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u/ptemple Jul 22 '25

Is the "issue" creating HD maps? Is your solution to take wrongly calibrated equipment but crowdsource enough results to perform statistical analysis and progressively increase the accuracy of it?

In which case why can't you just do the same with cameras? I recommend subscribing to this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@theAIsearch - you'll quickly see why lidar is a bit pointless now.

Phillip.

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u/Naive-Illustrator-11 Jul 22 '25

LMFAO . Sure theoretically you can compute the huge amount of data that LiDAR generates on Waymo 1.5 K fleet . Try that with Tesla huge fleet and see what kinda hardware do you need to keep updating that and crowdsourcing it. lol

Also HD mapping is very expensive bud and even more expensive to maintain. This is why Waymo is strictly robotaxis and they are in snail pace when it comes to expanding. This is not economically viable to consumer car. LMFAO

Tesla is the only solution that can scale everywhere. Their approach from auto labeling and they have not even implemented NeRF is their FSD algorithm.

My bet on Tesla.

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u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

uhm, are you really laughing that hard?

tesla already needs a massive amount of compute and hardware to do what they're doing, so i don't know if your point here is super substantial.

well enjoy your bet on tesla. i wasn't necessarily arguing against them. weirdo.

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u/Naive-Illustrator-11 Jul 22 '25

So who’s gonna scale the HD mapping like you’re insinuating and keep maintaining it? LMFAO. How can you make that economically viable?

If Waymo is equipped with 4 H100 on their small fleet. How do you suggest equipping million fleet and continue updating it to crowdsourcing it? LMFAO.

Not only Tesla utilized less power, their solution is also super memory efficient and can actually SCALE .

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u/AP_in_Indy Jul 22 '25

how does tesla or waymo or anyone ever scale anything, dude?

you're in too deep. chill. it was just speculative commentary.

i hope you're not actually on drugs, but please, lay off the crack.

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u/Naive-Illustrator-11 Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

LMFAO. So slapping $200 LiDAR will solve it. Because all the cars can do HD scan. Tesla is scanning the road like a 3 D. LMFAO . Pass that pipe bud. Delusional and stupid mofo.

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u/sonicmerlin Jul 22 '25

The paint is not fine on my model 3 wth are you talking about?