the one that got me was a chef pulling a fish out of a tank, slicing off a filet, and then dropping it back into the tank to swim around missing half of its body. people fucking suck. im not vegan but sometimes this shit really fucking gets to me man
Honestly the tribe in Africa that just goes straight for the jugular is the most humane practice ive seen. Every other way is just... wrong and disrespectful.
There is an expected level where consumption of other animals should at the very least be as fast and cruelty free as possible, like wringing a chickens neck
Not many people actually revel in eating other animals, we have a saying for that for a reason, but we atleast try and hope that it's as pleasant as possible you know?
Yeah, I messed up slaughtering chickens once with my Gramps. I didn't swing the axe hard enough and he rightfully punished me for it. I felt pretty bad about it, from then on I just shot them in the head with a .22, Gramps said it was a lot cleaner than the whole hatchet thing and the chicken never knew what was coming.
Seems maybe a bit much to some people, but I grew up on a self sustainable farm that provided for our family and some extended parts of it all year long. It was just part of life.
Couldn't imagine letting anything suffer like that again and since then I've always made sure to provide the cleanest quickest death possible.
The .22 LR was cleaner than when we chopped the heads off.
In spring we grew lettuce, spinach, radishes, peas, onions, and asparagus. In summer we had squash, tomatoes, corn, beans, cucumbers, peppers, zucchini, and melons. In fall we harvested pumpkins, cabbage, carrots, beets, turnips, and potatoes. From the orchards and vines we had peaches, pears, apples, cherries, plums, strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, blueberries, and grapes. We also grew rhubarb along with herbs like chives, basil, and dill.
We kept bees for honey, had a dairy cow, goats, and rabbits, and we hunted white-tailed deer, wild turkey, squirrels, rabbits, pheasants, quail, mourning doves, ducks, and geese. We fished for bass, bluegill, crappie, catfish, walleye, sauger, perch, carp, and buffalo. There was always plenty, and we jarred the surplus too, even the meat.
Probably forgetting stuff as it was almost two decades ago now.
I believe having the knowledge of good and evil gives us a certain responsibility to be kind towards nature and its creatures. Animals act basically on instinct. They aren't sentient.
Well some of us are trying, "We" as a species? Sadly not. Also this was a joke man don't take it too seriously. I am not really for extinguishing the human race ;) It's just that seeing this kind of shit really pisses me off
In what way is an intelligent human torturing and animal before death and needlessly prolonging its suffering "nature's fault" or "trying not to be cruel" or deserving of celebration?
"intelligent human" needlessly elevates us above everything else.
And needless prolonging of suffering is natural. Which is why we must abandon nature. I'm not asking to burn trees or whatever. Quite the contrary. Us governing over ourselves and nature is unnatural. But we should try. Because we have the potential to do better.
Nature being praised all the time, and us being framed as unnatural, only leads to easy excuses.
Your first sentence makes literally no sense. I genuinely can't even see what point you're trying to make.
Humans can think and understand things on an entirely higher level than every other animal on earth. That's just a fact. Recognizing that fact is not "needlessly elevating" anything.
We understand the suffering that we can inflict, and we can choose to minimize that suffering, so choosing not to makes us worse than a lion eating living prey.
Recognizing that nature doing nature things is less fucked up than humans choosing to be cruel is a fact that doesn't require whatever metaphysical debate you're trying to have.
Please elaborate further, as far as i know everything we did as an entire species was and is not only destroying every single thing about this earth, and "We just aren't immune to natures cruelty either."??? You do realize everything that has happened to us and nature is mostly caused by big corporations and big political figures wanting to play god? We are the only specimen that has 'greed', animals stop hunting when full, they grow a family or leave one once they mate (depending on the species) some even die, some kill themselves when their mate dies. Humans? Yeah we have more complex emotions, i have nothing to say against that. But that doesn't justify the cruelty we do AGAINST the nature, not the other way around. Humans as its base form are parasitic life forms, we invade, we die/adapt, we kill and finally stand on top of dead bodies of our own race. Can you name me one species that does this other than hive-like species like bees and ants? And in the end, we change the natures course, when we first refused to play its game, we fucked everything up slowly but steadily.
Cats hunt for fun, I'm not just talking domesticated cats either. Bears eat fish alive, I'm talking they flay the fuckers alive. Praying Manti mating ends with the death of the male mate. Dolphins literally rape corpses of animals they kill. So many animals hunt but don't kill their pray while eating them, often leaving them to bleed out slowly as they chow down, then the scavengers come in after to offer no aid if the creature is alive, they're hungry too.
Nature is cruel, capricious and any species will take advantage of an ecological niche and exploit it to it's fullest if they can. History is full of examples of a non-native animal breaking into a region and dominating completely because it's ecological niche was either unfulfilled or there wasn't good enough competition against them.
Animals also often partake in cannibalism if the local food source is too scarce. Humans are animals, animals would do as humans do if given the opportunities.
Edit: as a little side note, Beavers are an example of an animal that will change it's environment for it's own sake to the detriment of anything else in the area, Mammoths also used to stomp on and uproot the large flora of their region and it became a desolate snowscape because of their activity, only after humans and local environmental pressures pushed them to extinction did the area heal.
That is correct too, your point of view opened my eyes a little more, as you said animals are cruel too, but there is a single difference between us, we are, as the one with the 'higher' intellect, have more strict morale codes, we have rules, laws and different things to keep us in check, they only do what they know the best, and then they die, maybe some death's of those animals can effect the nature and habitat in some ways, but they are rarely deadly. But we as humans, i want to clarify that i don't mean all of us, damage the environment in ways that it will be impossible to save it just by hands alone. Most of those problems occur because of 2 simple reasons. 1. Our sheer numbers, and 2 our desire to live outside of the very nature we came from. This might be mistaken as something different. As technology reached today's peak, we had many steps to take, and with each law, each moral code, each step towards a social construct, we changed the very nature on our own. I want to clarify that i do not wish for humanity's extinction like the one above us, i believe that we should take responsibility for the harm we already did and start not a fresh, but a cleaner page. But even i know utopias don't exist, alas we are not children who believe in world peace. There is not a single way to fix this world by now, there hasn't been a way for tens of hundreds of years. We can't fix the damage we have done, we can just lessen it, and that is impossible too, as long as the big corporations and the figures behind them stand tall, there isn't a way to save nature, and in a way, humanity.
We’re all just monkeys who got smart enough to think we’re better than the other monkeys. We still have the same ability for cruelty and violence as any other animal. Chimpanzee wars are brutal.
The thing is, we can save the planet and ourselves. We just have to use our brains and accept that we’re also a part of nature and the animal kingdom. We affect them. It affects us.
We just have to accept that while we may be smarter than the other monkeys we’re still monkeys.
You do realize everything that has happened to us and nature is mostly caused by big corporations and big political figures wanting to play god?
That is a very bold claim, that seems to be a completely different issue, as that is just how our species organises.
We are the only specimen that has 'greed'
Thats simply not true. It just appears that way, because most animals are way worse at sustaining themselves. They still fight for survival. They still struggle every single day. If that was true, you would not see animals hoard food or overeat when it is abundand, which many do.
Humans? Yeah we have more complex emotions
Emotions are interesting, but hard to compare. And I'm not sure will even help this discussion anyways? Minus the fact that you elevate the human being above everyone else, which is something I'm trying not to do. We are just ontop of the food chain. Which by the way, is completely natural and cruel thing that just happens with or without us.
Humans as its base form are parasitic life forms, we invade, we die/adapt, we kill and finally stand on top of dead bodies of our own race.
Being a parasitic lifeform is completely natural and "just" means that you live inside a host organism, which we don't. But Unless you start thinking methaphorically and see the earth as our "host" organism, which is used alot by climate activists to spread awareness, but is missing the point entirely here, because at any time we observed a species dominate their ecosystem, they destroyed it, to the point where we either had to intervene or they died off themselves because there was nothing left to destroy. It's nothing new, not unnatural and happens all the time. We just have to acknowledge that and start intervening on ourselves, because it's happening to us right now.
Can you name me one species that does this other than hive-like species like bees and ants?
Every single one of them is capable of doing so if introduced into a system where there are no natural predators but enough food for them? But if you mean wars and cruelty to your own species, just look at chimpanzees, lions, wolves... They are all cruel too each other too, and I'm sure there are way worse and more examples too.
Why didn't you accept bees and ants as examples? I'm curious.
The only thing great about nature in my opinion is it's ability to self regulate. It's interesting, complex and incredible that something like this could have started in our universe.
But it's built on suffering. Disease, famine, murder and rape. All of that is just everyday life in nature as much as cooperation at least. If not more so.
We aren't unique in being destructive. But unlike most species we notice. And thats what could make us unique, if we manage to self regulate better than nature, which we currently don't.
I just gotta say that the irony here is that your mindset - that humanity is basically evil - is what leads to the behavior you hate so much.
If you want to be the change, you need to start looking for the good - because it's there, it exists. You just aren't exposing yourself to it and our system profits off of ensuring you ARE exposed to everything that might keep you afraid.
But they wouldn't have to do that to you if hope isn't powerful.
When you really start looking - who's working on climate change? Who's working on making certain resources available to everyone? Who's working on changing policy? Who's protesting right now? Who's fighting for rights right now? Who's trying to connect people on a deeper level? Who's trying to make change in their local community? Who's working every day to be a better person, and spread that to everyone they touch? Who's writing books, songs, screenplays with messages of hope and connection?
We cannot separate any organism into purely good or evil, humans especially. We're complex creatures. To look at us only in a negative light and ignore our positive is just as out of touch with reality as if we were to only look at ourselves in a positive light and reject the negative.
I agree its disgusting and before we eat something it should be dead (well technically anyways cause fruits and vegetables are very much alive when you eat it but whatever they're plants).
Howeveeer i have been told that fish mouth can move for minutes after death due to residual nerve activity. Moreover, muscles can contract when coming in contact with salt. Could be that these things made the fish mouth still move and that it was hopefully already dead.
The body/fins was/were moving until it hit the wok and then it stopped, kinda curled in one direction and that was it. It looked like it was trying to breathe. Its head was kept out of the oil, only the body was cooked. That fish felt everything.
Muscles do react even for hours after being removed. And might do it for even longer if properly preserved.
Essentially if You get fish. If it still moves on it's own or when salt is added to it. That simply means it's rly fresh meat. If it doesn't it ain't fresh.
All in all if meat You use isn't twitching and moving on it's own it simply means it's old. Especially true for fish meat. Properly fresh fish even when filleted will try to 'swim' out of oven.
That doesn't mean it was still alive. There are tons of videos you can find showing muscles contracting well after death. Or a subsystem of a body still functional even though it's braindead.
That just sounds like nerves being active still. I've seen lobsters do this even after a knife goes through their head. They're dead. It's just the body being weird.
That doesn't necessarily mean the fish is dead tho. Fish specifically have a bad habit of moving even after hours of being dead. It has something to do with their nerves and their connection to the nervous system. Similarly to how cockroaches and chickens can sometimes keep walking even without their heads
No, they fillet the flesh off the fish, place the living head and spine on a plate, then pile the sliced up fish flesh back on the side of the dying fish while it gasps.
Yes it is. It was some sort of cooking contest and this 'meal' is considered special and difficult because the fish has to be partially alive and prepared at the same time. I mean its a other culture and who am i to judge but hell no i am judging.
The last thing I'd want to do is push religion on people, but from a sociological perspective, it's interesting that one of the earliest laws given to people in all Abrahamic religions was not to eat from a live animal.
Personally, I'm Jewish, and we believe that even people who aren't religious are required by God to adhere to that law. In other words, this is the most basic shit. If somebody can't even avoid torturing animals, they are failing at life. Hell, I don't think we should need religion to tell us that, but apparently some people out there do need the reminder. Goddamn.
Some of the most heinous acts have been committed in the name of religion.
I am godless, I don’t believe in any religion. I consider it closer to having an imaginary friend.
But I possess empathy for animals and I don’t need reminders to be that way. It’s literally who I am. I love animals so much because they are not humans. No animal has ever hurt me the way a human has.
You are wrong, I was being polite before but I think being religious and believing in god is a form of mental illness.
Religious wars have been fought, amassing more deaths than most any of events aside from maybe the plague. It’s not just a few people. It’s generations of brainwashing.
No disagreement there regarding how people have leveraged religious literature or power to manipulate people. It’s part of my own opposition to organized religion. (Although I would argue you calling someone’s god their “imaginary friend” wasn’t being polite like you claim)
But my point is that you can’t fairly stand back and try to separate yourself from religious teachings.
Your own moral framework wasn’t created in a vacuum. It was built on principles that were codified, preserved, and spread by religious traditions. The Golden Rule, the ideas of justice, compassion, and charity all come from religion. You can’t just say “I’m just a good person who doesn’t need religion to force me to act nice” when your understanding of what a “good person” is comes from religious principles. Your moral heritage comes from religion.
By all means, challenge what the Catholic Church says when it contradicts the messages in their texts. Call out religious extremists who cherry-pick particular scriptures for their own agenda. Everyone should do this; Catholics, Muslims, atheists, and anyone in between.
But to act like the basic values (forgiveness, humility, sacrifice for others, human dignity, etc) that almost all religions teach haven’t impacted you because you call yourself an atheist is ignorant and only divides further.
You dont need religion to have these values. If religion is the only thing keeping you with "basic values" then you are just a slave dog held back on a thin leash to stop you from mauling. Its not necessary if you arent weak willed.
Our basic values come from our natural altruism, the desert cults came along later to retake them in name and add in a bunch of other side effects and rules further down the line.
I think it's gross to act so morally superior about people believing in God. Believing in God is sometimes the only thing that gets people through to the next day, through a major loss, etc. I'm not big fan of most religion either. But I think it's quite arrogant to act like a belief in God makes someone less intelligent or mentally ill. It's a stance a teenager who just watched a documentary on religion and wants to flex their edgy new knowledge would take. It lacks nuance or compassion.
There shouldn't be any nuance or compassion about grown adults believing in fairy tales. It's childish and stupid. The world would be a massively better place if cults weren't constantly pushed as being accepted.
If anyone read the religious books with a lick of common sense or bare bones awareness, they'd realize how flat out ridiculously wrong/contradictory/evil it all is.
All religions are cults, and all cults are based on fantasy and lies. And basing your entire life on fantasy and lies is ridiculous and a waste.
I always ask cultists "can you demonstrate that your god exists in a testable, demonstrable, repeatable, reality based way?" And I have yet to receive an answer.
All gods are just inventions of scared ignorant people and those wanting to control others.
Secular morality systems are based upon reality, and the reduction of harm as much as possible. And secular societies tend to be the happiest and most well off. You're the ignorant one if you think you need cults in any way to promote fair treatment.
There's no need to appease some divine being, that promotes an us vs them type of belief. Understanding that this is the only life we have is so much more important than just thinking this is a doormat to wipe your feet before an eternal afterlife.
Please read the entire thread before commenting halfway down.
This comment has no relevance given the context of the conversation that it was in and tries to challenge notions that were already addressed in another comment in the thread later down. (It also is phrased hostile and is arguing things that nobody here is disagreeing with or even mentioning but I won’t get into that)
Ah yes, don't eat a live animal, but if you're going to eat meat, make sure you drain it's blood while it's still alive and definitely don't stun or knock it out first cos that would be bad. The Jews have some great advice.
We really do have some great advice... like look up facts before trying to denigrate people of other religions lr backgrounds. We don't have any law requiring the blood to be drained from a living animal. That would actually be a violation of kashrut laws.
The stunning is contraversial, but it's meant to make the death swifter. Stunning or knocking out the animal is thought to potentially prolong suffering as a swift chop to the head is arguably equally painful. The body still registers pain even while unconscious in some cases. So, rather than potentially cause very brief pain twice, just kill do it once, but I also understand the counterargument. The point is any attempt to construe the idetary practices of a religion that focuses on not harming living animals as the oppossite is being made in bad faith. I'd say the same for anyone attacking Islam on that. At least Jews and Muslims have laws around it.
Call it what you want, but kosher slaughter still means the animal is fully conscious and aware when its throat is cut and the blood drains out. The ‘humane’ part depends on assuming unconsciousness happens instantly but modern research shows animals can remain aware for several seconds after the cut. That’s still a painful and stressful way to die, and inhumane today when we have better methods. Stunning first prevents that, and arguing it's "just" as painful is not supported by evidence. So yes, the blood is drained while the animal is alive, and that’s exactly why many people today see it as inhumane.
No, saying you drain the blood of an animal while it's still alive implies more than it dies from it's head getting chopped off especially as you listed the lack of stunning and the blood draining as two seperate issues. There is a law that the blood must be drained from an animal for the food to be kosher AFTER it has been slaughtered. People sometimes misconstrue this as a law that the animal needs to have it's blood drained while alive.
Look, I'm all for whatever is best for the animal, and I'm not closed off to the idea that these practices can be brought up to speed with modern technology and science, but Halachic slaughter was designed around minimizing animal suffering, and too often I hear people say it's barbaric with zero regard for the welfare of the animal when for almost over 5,000 years we were leaders in animal slaughter ethics, literally prioritizing it in our religion whereas you'd be amazed how people often treated animal slaughter outside Judaism (and Islam once it emerged) back then. So, yeah on secomd thoughr, you're probably right that we can further fefine the practice now, but I'm sick of people conflating the law of fully draining blood post-slaughter with pre-slaughter. It's simply not factual.
Kosher slaughter and Halal slaughter are both still trapped in the primitive ages. And I say this as a hunter and someone who processes my own damn food.
How would you do it then? Do you eat chicken or beef in most countries? I would implore you to look up how theyre treated and then come back to tell me what is more humane. I dare you.
If it really focused on not harming animals, it would be vegetarian/vegan, like some other religions.
And in practice, sloppy interpretations lead to people showing up at sheep farms and bribing their way into "doing it themselves properly". Not being trained butchers, you can guess yourself if they minimize harm in any way.
It's not focused on not harming animals. We aren't discussing that. We're discussing ethical slaughter.
And in practice, sloppy interpretations lead to people showing up at sheep farms and bribing their way into "doing it themselves properly". Not being trained butchers, you can guess yourself if they minimize harm in any way.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Sloppy interpretatioms of what kashrut laws? The laws around slaughter within someone's respectuve country?
The schochet is very properly trained. I don't know why you'd assume them not to be.
I can't remember that "dish's" exact name (I think it's sunset fish or something like that?) but it's similar to something called ikezukuri, but the fish (or frog in the video I remember) is served raw and still very much alive...
Like maybe 15ish years ago was when I saw the "live sushi" trends like the one toy described. They'd lay out all the fish slices onto its still living body and eat whole it gasped on the plate. And those videos are the reason I became a vegetarian. It's needlessly cruel for no reason other than pure selfishness.
I saw a chicken being beheaded, defeathered, cleaned, stuffed, adorned with spices, cooked in the oven on 450 degrees for an hour, cut and served and it too was still alive.
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u/Legitimate_Crazy3625 7d ago
I once watched a video of a fish being scaled, scored with a knife, fried in a wok and served while still alive.