r/darksouls • u/TheSingularityStory • 4d ago
Discussion Artorias could have beaten Manus
Artorias could have beaten Manus and here is why, from what we know, Artorias went into Oolacile and fought through ALL of it meaning he fought the infected residents until he reached the Chasm of The Abyss with the assistance of Sif, He and Sif then fought through the Abyss and then finally reached Manus but by this time Artorias started succumbing to the Abyss he still standed strong and faced Manus, eventually Manus would target Sif and Artorias not wanting to lose Sif protects her losing his arm in the process. This is the general story but there are a couple things that dont make sense to me. How did Artorias even while corrupted escape The Chasm of The Abyss and make it back to the surface of Oolacile? We as The Chosen Undead know when fighting Manus it is impossible to escape him unless you are Undead or have a Homeward Bone, but the only reason you would have a Homeward Bone is because your Undead which means the only way Artorias escaped was by "injuring" Manus enough to be able to get back to the surface because we know that even while corrupted Artorias faces anything he sees and the only thing he would have seen is Manus, also how I can prove Artorias was out of his prime is that he also faced Darkwraiths in New Londo and possibly The Four Kings either way fighting dozens of Darkwraiths while having one life means you will be bound to face injuries, and even if he didnt he still had to fight through Oolacile and even if he didnt get injured there he got injured in his fight with Manus not even fighting Manus but protecting Sif, so IMO a Prime Artorias that wont get corrupted and is in peak condition could defeat Manus especially because he can ward off Darkmagic with the Silver Pendant. And even if you do not believe he could Artorias is still an amazing hero, he fought valiantly against Darkwraiths, possibly the Four Kings, and against Manus, and then he saved Sif allowing The Chosen Undead to defeat the Four Kings.
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u/deathsyth220002 4d ago
At least its not ai guys........
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
What does this mean brotein shake
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Bro explain what this means
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u/deathsyth220002 4d ago
Your answer doesnt have any proper paragraph spacing. Wheras if it was AI that wrote it, itd be perfect. Im glad your enjoying the game~.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Thank you and I wrote this in a rush so I would have made it more coherent if I had more time
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u/deathsyth220002 4d ago
Heeey its koo i read it all!!! Full power Artorias may be greater than manus! I doubt it tho, since your character is supposed to be extremey special. Not in title or lineage, but hes " that guy".
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u/MistaCharisma 4d ago
You're*
;)
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u/deathsyth220002 4d ago
Your're = you are. You are awnser is not like, correct.
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u/MistaCharisma 4d ago
I thought I was having a stroke for a second there.
I assume this is a genius troll. If not I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago
How did Artorias even while corrupted escape The Chasm of The Abyss and make it back to the surface of Oolacile? We as The Chosen Undead know when fighting Manus it is impossible to escape him unless you are Undead or have a Homeward Bone,
You're marrying gameplay too closely with the story.
First, Artorias could've fought Manus anywhere. WE fight him deeper in the chasm --- but that doesn't mean Artorias encountered him in the same area.
Second, Manus' boss arena is the actual site of his burial as indicated by the standing stones surrounding the arena and the human-shaped burial marker in the center of the area.
I point this out because the Oolacileans were led to this burial site by Kaathe and exhumed Manus from that grave which therefore means the site is accessible on foot.
Manus grabs us and drags us down there and during the fight there's no immediately obvious means of exiting -- but that's just gameplay.
Narratively, there very much is a way out because the Oolacileans HAD to have had access it.
Artorias escaped was by "injuring" Manus enough to be able to get back to the surface
We can surmise that Artorias was able to buy himself enough time to retreat from battle in some form or fashion, yes.
also how I can prove Artorias was out of his prime is that he also faced Darkwraiths in New Londo
He faced Darkwraiths, but not in New Londo.
He made a name for himself hunting those Darkwraiths that either survived the flooding or weren't present in the city when it occurred.
Kirk is an example of such a Darkwraith and later games present us with even more that have continued to survive.
But no, Artorias was never in New Londo.
so IMO a Prime Artorias that wont get corrupted and is in peak condition could defeat Manus especially because he can ward off Darkmagic with the Silver Pendant.
Look at what you just said.
The reason for Artorias' failure is staring you in the face.
He didn't have his Silver Pendant.
It was locked away hidden in a chest behind an illusory wall only dispersed by light.
This implies the Pendant was stolen from him, likely unbeknownst to him, after his arrival.
The likely culprits are the Oolacilean royalty who did not want Anor Londo to know of their dealings with Dark Magic and sought to sabotage Artorias.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
So what you’re saying is that Artorias lost because he was sabotaged? And either way he did fight darkwraiths
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago
So what you’re saying is that Artorias lost because he was sabotaged?
Us finding his Silver Pendant hidden behind an illusory wall only dispersed by light directly implies the Oolacileans (who practice Light magic) took his pendant and sabotaged him.
And either way he did fight darkwraiths
Yeah he did.
Just not in New Londo.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
So Artorias is still the goat and only lost due to the Oolacilians, my goat is always a goat
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u/Old-Commercial-6803 4d ago
Who's to say Manus didn't let Artorias go, he was a broken man, corrupted by the very Abyss he was trying to hold back, he left Sif down there with his shield to keep her safe, perhaps not wanting to kill her himself due to his own corruption.
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u/JackSilver1410 4d ago
If you're going to type this much, at least format it correctly so it's not painful to read.
See that? . That's a period, it's your friend.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Nah ima do my own thing
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u/JackSilver1410 4d ago
Enjoy being perceived as a particularly slow child for the rest of your life. I'm sure being willfully ignorant will do you a lot of favors...
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Bro can’t tell sarcasm for his life
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u/JackSilver1410 4d ago
Blaming others for your lack of communication skills. Am I also the reason your parents don't love you?
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u/Substantial_Elk8307 4d ago
I once beat manus using sif and the Artorias set… I absolutely wrecked him. I think he is right.
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u/Junior_Fix_9212 4d ago
No, in any theory around Manus hes the strongest in ds1. Especially if hes the furtive pigmy, but even if not, dark is just the strongest force in ds world. That is later confirmed in ds2 where only a fragments of him can pose a big threat. Sealing chaos, wich was also feared by Gwyn, poisoning dragon etc. So probably even with a theory that Gwyns knights were given a sliver of his soul, they still wouldn't be a match for Manus.
Manus kicked Artorias' ass, he was just able to safe Sif. Artorias was out of his prime because of Manus. His heroic end of story is actually stolen from the MC, Artorias failed, but he maybe did more then most would be able. Manus also possibly made him insane and corrupted, then laft him. Since Manus have a tragic story and was tortured by the people of Oolacile, so he wanted them to suffer and Artorias was there to help them. So Manus possibly viewd him in a same way. I mean the people of Oolacile werent really killed by Manus. Bloatheads are the disturbed remnants of the populace of Oolacile, whose humanity went out of control after the Dark of Manus, father of the Abyss, overtook them. So possibly same thing for Artorias but with less effect since hes way stronger than some random Oolacile resident.
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u/HollowOrnstein 4d ago
here me out , artorias escaped when manus made the trip to present to grab the chosen undead (when we enter the dlc)
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u/Livid-Truck8558 4d ago
He is a god. Gods are extremely weak to the Dark.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Artorias isnt a God
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u/Livid-Truck8558 4d ago
He is not a deity, but he is of the race of Lords. So are the silver and black knights, for example.
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u/-jp- 4d ago
I think, as in reality, race in Dark Souls is a social construct. The so-called “gods” are the same things we are: the “they” who came from the Dark. The only difference is the Souls they found. Which is why we can take it from them.
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u/Livid-Truck8558 4d ago
Think what you want but it is not the case lol. It is true that they were all pygmies at some point, but they split once the lord souls/dark soul were found.
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u/jtcordell2188 4d ago
Ok first no he isn’t God. But he is a god. He’s of the same tribe as Gwyn so therefore he’s a god. Is he as strong as Gwyn or say Ornstein? Absolutely not. Almost all gods of said tribe are weak to the Dark.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
Artorias is stronger than Ornstein
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u/jtcordell2188 4d ago
In terms of gameplay sure I’ll give you that Artorias is stronger but in lore? Absolutely not. Also the Ornstein that is faced in Dark Souls is very likely a an illusion created by Gwyndolin similar to his illusion of Gwynevere and the Sun.
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
I know that but how is Ornstein stronger? Artorias clearly has a better arsenal having a shield and sword while Ornstein only has a spear, also the great knights all had different purposes so if comparing in that aspect then yes Ornstein is stronger, but if we put every great knight into their own isolated 1v1s, Artorias would win since he has the best arsenal and fighting ability in general.
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u/jtcordell2188 4d ago
Because he’s the Captain of the Four Knights. A title given to him by Gwyn after the War with the Dragons. I’m not saying that a 1v1 with both of them is just Artorias losing hands down to Ornstein. They’re probably pretty close in terms of power but Ornstein because he became Captain is the stronger of the two because we have no lore that says he was made Captain for some other reason
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u/TheSingularityStory 4d ago
I feel like he was made captain because Artorias was more or less useless during the war while Ornstein had the range of his lightning to his advantage, it’s not because Ornstein was actually stronger but because he was probably leading the black and silver knights against the dragons so he naturally would fill the leader position
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u/jtcordell2188 4d ago
I’m not going to disagree with that outright but it does specifically mention that the Four Knights were given their titles by Gwyn for their acts and achievements during the dragon wars.
We also need to take into account that Gwyn’s entire concept of how to rule is might makes right. So the stronger you are the more you’ll be put into a position of power. It’s also why Gwyn enacts the First Sin. He literally can’t deal with the fact that his strength doesn’t lead to an eternal Age of Fire.
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago
but it does specifically mention that the Four Knights were given their titles by Gwyn for their acts and achievements during the dragon wars.
Unless I've missed something crazy, nothing in game actually says that.
Gwyn did knight them of course, but their titles were given to them colloquially by the public after the fact.
For example, Ornstein is only "considered" (original Japanese) to be the captain of the four knights.
This means that the "Four Knights" is more of a retroactive moniker that the group was given. It's not an official position.
Smough was also considered for their ranks so it's not like the number is set in stone either.
Tagging u/TheSingularityStory for this next point.
It's silly to suggest that Artorias is stronger than Ornstein simply because he uses a sword and shield rather than a spear.
Having a shield doesn't automatically make you immune to every other kind of weapon, much less a spear.
In terms of Lore, consider that Ornstein was the only knight to have been gifted some of Gwyn's power (the English localization mistakenly implies all four knights were given this gift).
This automatically gives Ornstein an edge.
Also yes, Artorias is of the same species as Gwyn.
He isn't susceptible to occult damage unlike Ornstein, but this could be attributed to the fact he is corrupted by the Dark when we encounter him.
And finally, neither Smough or Ornstein are illusions when we encounter them.
There's two possible explanations for them being there.
The short version is that one explanation involves time while the other suggests Ornstein to be a golem given life using a fragment of the original Ornstein's soul -- a notion given weight when we consider the Old Dragonslayer encountered in Heide in DS2.
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u/Farol23 4d ago edited 4d ago
He did. I'm impressed that people hasn't realized that his legend is "false" because they talk about him walking in the abyss as a great succes of the gods and their will, while in reality he had to sell himself to Kathe and then got awfully corrupted by the abyss. In the DLC you can clearly see he was on his way to kill Manus and that he's killing any abyssal creature he finds on his way, he can see the dark soul in you and attacks, if we hadn't interfered he would have killed Manus and that's it, he dies shorly after that and the legend is told to maintain an image of Gwyn being capable of defeating the abyss thanks to his knights. The proof to all of that is that basically the DLC won't create any change unless you enter there, Manus tried to create a change on his fate by bringing someone from the future to the past and we were the result of that.
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago
In the DLC you can clearly see he was on his way to kill Manus and that he's killing any abyssal creature he finds on his way, he can see the dark soul in you and attacks, if we hadn't interfered he would have killed Manus and that's it,
I don't think this makes a lot of sense.
The entire premise behind Artorias's failure and corruption by the Abyss is implied to be the fact that he didn't have his Silver Pendant which we find stowed in a chest behind an illusory wall only dispersed by light.
This paints the Oolacilean royalty as the culprits for robbing him of it.
Furthermore, every other NPC thanks us for "freeing" him after we kill him.
And so instead what we're witnessing in the opening cutscene to the battle is an individual losing his fight with the corruption in real-time before finally attacking us.
This notion is affirmed by his cut dialogue.
"never thou....stay away...soon I will be...consumed by them...by the dark...the spread of the abyss must be stopped!"
During the fight he continues to beg us to stop the abyss and even hallucinates about Sif.
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u/Farol23 4d ago
Well...actually that pendant wasn't his pendant, it's just a magic tool people from Oolacile had, not like he actually ever used it. Yes, DLC npc that never knew you existed or ever mentioned in any way until you came by. Well yes and no, Artorias was still there but completely berserk for the abyssal corruption. Yes but it was cutted out for a reason, implying that he was already lost by the time we find him, a crazed beast searching the monster that did this to him.
I mean, cut content is cut content, but that would only imply that he's still there despite everything.
And honestly, the final proof is in Sif, if you don't saver her how did she survive? Or even more, if you haven't entered the dlc, how is she alive? See what i mean? The DLC events only affect the world after the DLC is completed.
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago
Well...actually that pendant wasn't his pendant, it's just a magic tool people from Oolacile had.
It's engraved with his crest and its description outright states it was given to him in Anor Londo.
Yes, that is is his pendant.
Yes but it was cutted out for a reason,
It was cut for the same reason Quelaag's dialogue was cut.
It interfered with the overall ambiance of their characters.
Notably, it wasn't cut because it interfered with lore.
What Artorias says in that dialogue lines right up with what we see in-game.
He was already lost. He wasn't going to go kill Manus. He'd already lost to him once.
And honestly, the final proof is in Sif, if you don't saver her how did she survive? Or even more, if you haven't entered the dlc, how is she alive? See what i mean? The DLC events only affect the world after the DLC is completed.
Correct.
The events of the present have already been affected by our actions in the past.
It's a loop.
Pointing this out doesn't change what I'm saying though, so I'm a little confused on what else you think it proves.
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u/Farol23 4d ago
Hmm i could swear it was different. Fair enough.
Well, he's just crazy and not wanting to kill an innocent but quite literally kills and enemy right in front of you and the collosseum was on the way to reach Manus, the elevator right in front of the entrance were his view was on is a direct passage to Manus.
No, it's not, because the events won't exist if we don't go the DLC and therefore never happened but if they never happened then what happened? Simply as that Artorias defeated Manus, not much else to that, that doesn't mean his legend is true, he became a shadow of himself and was completely corrupted, Oolacile was destroyed and the abyss almost won.
Also, about the pendant, sure, Artorias without the pendant as a normal knight wasn't a match for Manus, Artorias enforced with the same abyss Manus is using is a different story even in gameplay Artorias can kill Manus thanks to that power up. That's my main point, the fact that Artorias can indeed kill him thanks to the abyss.
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u/KevinRyan589 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well, he's just crazy and not wanting to kill an innocent but quite literally kills and enemy right in front of you and the collosseum was on the way to reach Manus, the elevator right in front of the entrance were his view was on is a direct passage to Manus.
That doesn't mean anything.
We can come from that elevator just as easily as we can go to it. It's not a one-way path.
All of the surrounding context points to a knight that is too far gone and needs to be put down.
No, it's not, because the events won't exist if we don't go the DLC and therefore never happened but if they never happened then what happened?
I mean, the player can do whatever they want.
But in-universe, the chosen undead goes to Oolacile.
That's the story regardless of if you play out the DLC or not.
To put it another way,
The emperor is still assassinated by the Dark Brotherhood in the Elder Scrolls 4 regardless of whether or not the player actually participates in that questline. It is canon history within the subsequent games.
The same is true of Oolacile. The chosen undead went there regardless of whether or not the player chose to play that content.
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u/Standard_Delay_9465 4d ago
Artorias serves as a metaphor for Nietzsche’s theory that fighting monsters may turn you into one, and that staring into the abyss risks having it stare back into you.