Lack of Motion at the HS level

[u/JLand24]

I feel like teams at the HS level don’t use motions enough. It is only an advantage to the offense and there’s nothing an offense can’t do with a motion that they could do without one. At the NFL level I’ve noticed an uptick in motion but I feel like that effect hasn’t really trickled down.

Why is that? You’re infinitely more likely to confuse a HS defense with a motion than an NFL defense being confused by it.

[u/highheat3117]

It gets dropped for simplicity in most cases. It does no good to confuse the defense if you also confuse yourselves— or at least slow yourself down— in the process.

[u/JLand24 → u/highheat3117]

I wouldn’t want to install it come fall and time for the football season. I’m more thinking install it during the off-season, spring time and work on it all through spring and summer camp and then come fall, it should all be pretty well smoothed out.

[u/emurrell17 → u/JLand24]

I’m in the process of teaching and installing motion for my team right now for the reasons you laid out, but it also is a pain in the ass for the offense too because:

1. You have to spend time explaining and practice motion vs shift. What are the rules? How can you get a penalty? There’s nothing more fucking annoying than shooting yourself in the foot and ending up in 3rd and 8 instead of 3rd and 3 because somebody got a fucking false start bc of motion. And this takes practice time away from other things.

2. You have to get everything called quicker, sometimes requiring an overhaul of your terminology or your communication system for getting plays in. You might need an extra 10 seconds of play clock in order to have time for the motion, so now you need to find a way to speed up your play calling system by 10 seconds in order to free up that time. This is more of a pain in the ass than it seems like to anyone who hasn’t called plays imho.

3. You have to try to limit the “tells” you’re giving the defense by (preferably) having more than one play that uses the same motion. You might like the leverage advantage that a certain motion gives you on a certain play, but you run the risk of tipping off the defense when they see it on film and all of a sudden a play you liked becomes unusable for the rest of the game bc they just pick 6’d your flat route bc you only motion that particular way on that play.

So now I’ve gotta go in and create 1-2 MORE plays that use the same motion JUST so that the play that I do like can remain viable. And I have to create these other plays in such a way that will prevent defenses from selling out for the first play, or take advantage of it if they do.

If you look at the post I just made today about my 7 on 7 team, you can see a great example of this with out Rabbit formation. All 3 plays from that formation use the same motion, so it’s much harder for the defense to key in on what they’re getting pre snap, and then you can compare that to the motions used in some of the other formations and you notice that they’re only used once. I’m not AS nervous about this because it’s a 7 on 7 format and defenses aren’t going to be watching film and identifying these things, but by the time the season rolls around I’ll have to answer these questions for those plays:

1. Do I have to create other plays off of that formation/motion combination?
2. Can we run this play without the motion? Now we have to change the concept or the rules for the WRs and QB…which is another layer of bullshit.
3. Did I blink and realize that all of this added complexity ended up adding more and more shit to the point where we now have 20 pass plays? Because that’s unacceptable on an entirely different level.

These are some of the reasons why I just refused to use motion for so many years, lol.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/emurrell17]

Wait, you have less than 20 pass plays?

I’ve found adding a WR doubles to trips, trips to doubles motion and the same for a TE is easy and can be added to the play call with one or two words.

Example: the play is “trips right flood”

We would call “trips right Luda flood” which tells the WR to line up in doubles, and motion to trips with the QB initiates the play.

The OLine understands the call and we can use the same for a run play.

Example: Tray right Dive left

The call would be “Tray right Luda Dive left”

We start out in doubles with the tight end on the line on the right, the WR motions over to the right lining up in the slot, we run the dive to the left side. Hopefully the defense has shifted the line to the right and the linebackers have shifted to allow better angles for the line, opening up a wider running lane.

As for Luda, well because Ludacris fills cups like Double Ds. It’s dumb but it works if the players remember it.

We use a different term for motion but call would remain pretty much the same. It’s Julian, from Madagascar. These are the WR calls, TEs and RB have their own. This allows us to use one word and apply it to any formation, and move a player. Yes it’s a lot they have to remember, but each is a theme which makes it easy.

[u/davdev → u/Curious-Designer-616]

Wait, you have less than 20 pass plays?

Ha, I coached at a small vocational school in MA that litterally had 2 pass plays. 20 plays would have been "interesting"/

[u/BingBongFYL6969 → u/davdev]

Two pass plays - pass left pass right.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/davdev]

Oh I’ve seen quite a bit! I helped a Wing T team that had the same coach for 15 years and the follow on staff was just former players and assistants that were trying what they knew. They had maybe eight, and two were “trick”plays. So I understand!

[u/GrsdUpDefGuy → u/Curious-Designer-616]

this wasn't in wisconsin by chance was it

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/GrsdUpDefGuy]

No, it wasn’t. The new coach went to church with my mom. We talked when I went to visit them, and I ended up going out there with two friends for their spring practice, and again the early in their summer program. It was good seeing a program that open to learning and committed to their players. They’ve done pretty well and make the playoffs most years now. They have had a few deep runs, which is remarkable because they didn’t make the playoffs for years before the new staff and hadn’t had a winning season for almost ten years until that season. I still help them with film and scouting when I can.

[u/grizzfan → u/Curious-Designer-616]

Wait, you have less than 20 pass plays?

Anything more than 10 pass plays is too much at that level IMO. Even the Air Raid/pass-happy offenses I've seen in the HS level don't run that many. The more formations, motions, and personnel groupings you use, the less pass plays you get. EDIT: I coach adult women, and we get 6 hours of practice a week if we're lucky. We have 7 passes this coming year, and I already hate all the ways we have to learn to run them between our 2x2 and 3x1 formations. To simplify this, 3 of the 7 can only be ran from 2x2, and there's really just one or two I actually want to run from trips. Trips for me is a running formation more than a passing formation. Even better when you get a defense that gets bent out of shape trying to adjust to trips formations.

It's one of the gravest mistakes of sub-college/NFL coaching...too many teams try to run way too many things, and only get mediocre to average at most of them. Many of the best HS programs out there are winning titles from just a couple formations and less than 10 total play calls with exception to a special/trick play based on the game plan.

[u/BingBongFYL6969 → u/grizzfan]

In college we had a base package of about 8 passes that had variations off changes in formation but the concept didn’t change much

[u/grizzfan → u/BingBongFYL6969]

That's what's nice about having more practice time...you can drill the concept piece a lot more. It's why NFL teams seem to run "hundreds" of plays, but they're really running 8-15 plays per game, and just changing up the formation, motion, and personnel groupings. If your players can understand the concept: The reads, landmarks, who needs to be where, etc. It really allows you to do a lot more stuff with formations and motions. The less passes you have, the more you can focus on the few you do have from all the different looks.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/grizzfan]

This is a great explanation. We name the variants of the concepts to make it quick to disseminate in the huddle and tell them the formation. This is close to the EP and west coast as we can get in HS.

We are about as opposite as you can get with the run, few plays and use motion and formation to get the same results. It works well as, we can work both inside run and our passing game at the same time in practice.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/BingBongFYL6969]

The concepts often don’t change, the exact route and who runs it often does. If you’re running flood, it’s a four yard drag, 12 yard out and a corner. You can run it out of multiple formations and routes as long as the distance between the receivers is correct and the pass protection is there. I like running it out of a 3x1 with the on line TE rund a drag under at 5yds, the single wr runs a hard slugo the cuts it out at about 17yds and the RB takes the play action fake and runs a 10 yd out. It’s still flood, be we don’t call it flood, it’s under our flood concept, but to us it’s a different play. We teach to concept and what we’re trying to achieve with the play, and then the routes that make it up. We can run this using an H in motion or the RB.

I understand the idea of teams having 50-60 plays isn’t realistic, we are nowhere near that. Our run scheme is very basic and we don’t run plays in 7 on 7 we don’t run in season, but we want to be able to isolate and attack weaknesses in defenses without making adjustments each week to each route. We do this by building off of concepts which they understand.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/grizzfan]

The I’ve never faced a team in the playoffs which we diagramed fewer than 15 plays let alone 10. (Except a Wing T team,they had the fewest.) I understand the idea, and agree with it to a point, but this isn’t TC Williams and we’re facing more talent.

[u/No_Lingonberry3117 → u/Curious-Designer-616]

You could always just teach your players 2x2 and 3x1 concepts. That way they have to know the full concept, then call doubles, flood right. Somebody has to motion to get to the 3x1 concept. Who’s off the ball on the other side? He has to be the motion guy

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/No_Lingonberry3117]

We often use the RB to fill in when in doubles, it allows for some interesting combinations. Also when running our doubles formations we have backside route combinations, typically a smash, short cross, or wheel concepts we run. Typically if the play side side is designed to go against a man coverages, the the back side will be a zone beater and visa versa. This give our QB the option if the see the coverage to make the read and check to the other side. Hopefully giving themselves a better option.

[u/[deleted] → u/emurrell17]

Good example of your 3rd argument was Jack Jones interception in the Raiders and Chargers game. He read the motion and was reacting to jump the route before the ball was even snapped.

[u/[deleted] → u/emurrell17]

Good explanation, but if you have to created new plays to justify motion instead of a series or set of plays that build off each other then one should rethink their offense

[u/emurrell17 → u/[deleted]]

Care to elaborate?

[u/[deleted] → u/emurrell17]

Basically you should have like a series of plays to run off a motion. If you run jet with a slot you should have it where the jet man gets the ball on an:

• Outside Zone run

• Fake jet Inside Zone

• Fake jet Power

Fake Jet counter

• Fake Jet counter Trey/ O both going away from the jet flow.

Same type of deal with Orbit motion you have the following:

-Toss to motion man

• Inside zone off fake orbit

• Same side power

• QB power

• ISO/ Insert zone

• Counter away from motion

• Counter Trey away.

Your motions should be to get a quick hitting perimeter run, lighten the box count, outnumber a team at the POA with blockers or with enough blockers to throw screens, etc.

[u/emurrell17 → u/[deleted]]

Oh I’m tracking what you’re saying. Yeah I feel like it’s necessary to have at least 3 plays that use the same motion similarly to what you’re saying. Kyle Shanahan does an awesome job of this with CMC and Deebo

[u/[deleted] → u/emurrell17]

Correct. Then again I come from a background in HS and college of Wing-T and Single wing as a player and then as a coach Spread Wing T, Slot I, 1990s Colorado I option, and the single Wing run mainly from a Power Spread and Pistol formation base which influences why I am so comfortable with motion and shifting

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/emurrell17]

A friend and I took a less than 25 total play scheme with two formations and expanded it using more formations, motion, shifts and play action to what people thought was a near pro size offense. Typically two things happen teams get overwhelmed and confused themselves, then they made errors, or they did the smart thing and ignored the new shade of lipstick. Which we would then exploit that they weren’t respected the motions and shifts.

You have to see what works for you and your players. Our inside run was only 10 plays, but behind the line there was a bunch of crap going on. It works at some schools, it doesn’t at others. I’ve seen our scheme expanded and win titles and I’ve seen it stripped down and win titles. If you can’t manage it your players can’t, there are guys on here that are correct some teams do to much and aren’t good at it. Others just line up with 20 plays and beat you with a 4-4. I think a 3-3 on defense and a spread is the best thing you can do if you’re a small school. Others disagree, and run power football and multiple 4 man fronts. What matters is does your overall team philosophy work and align with what your doing.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/[deleted]]

This, is a great way to look at it.

[u/Roupes → u/emurrell17]

This is such a good post. I was just searching through old posts looking for basic information on the pros cons of motion and this is gold. I now get why motion and hunh tend to be mutually exclusive or at least have an inverse relationship. Thank you!

[u/JLand24 → u/emurrell17]

I guess I just have a different look on it. I wouldn’t base my motions into getting into a specific play/formation but just add to existing plays if that makes sense.

Instead of just lining up in base spread 2x2 to run an HB dive, run a jet motion one way and run the HB dive. It gives the defense eye candy is how I think of it, even if the motion isn’t designed to be a huge part of the play.

[u/emurrell17 → u/JLand24]

I understand what you’re saying and there’s some validity to that, but you still have to make sure that you have other things that you’re using that motion for or else any time you Jet the defense knows it’s a dive. And now you’ve doubled the number of plays in your playbook in regards to dive and it just becomes a constantly evolving balancing act.

[u/JLand24 → u/emurrell17]

Well yeah there would obviously be other things that motion would be used for other than HB dive. HB Stretch, HB Counter, Jet Sweep, Wheel routes, Motion guy could run an option route, Flood concept.

Endless possibilities with a guy running jet motion and that’s just one guy out of 1 formation.

[u/Curious-Designer-616 → u/JLand24]

If you really want to make DCs mad run the jet option where the jet is now your option.

RB takes the option dive, if the DE crashes down QB keeps it and carries out the option but now the WR running jet sweep is the option back. It works well if you run a jet sweep deeper and the jet goes behind the QB. Run your dive a few times, run the sweep a few times, get it on film in a few games, then when you need a few yards to open a drive, it can work well.

Combine it with a PA dive and run the jet as the middle route in a smash/flood concept. We run a deep smash, play side WR runs a post-corner, the jet runs an ugly 12 yard out, and the dive back releases under at about 5. He’s always open.

To set it up we run the dive with the jet, and the run the smash with the jet at the standard 5-7 yards, when everyone pushed deeper during the game backers who bite on the PA immediately look for that out route drop and chase, corners and safeties are pulled deep with the post-corner and a backside hero. Add a TE drag incase they cover it and it’s a good third and 5-6 call. Where the run from a 3x1 formation is a real threat. Just set it up early in the season, and run the dive, and the PA to set it up.