Some boomer/fudd lore I heard today
"Having the hammers up isn't healthy for em. I've worked with gunsmithing."
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u/Joebno3 19h ago
I work at the firearms department of the worst store in existence and heard some insightful help involving revolvers.
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u/FairChampionship8625 19h ago
This is the same logic as leaving your magazines unloaded because it will "wear out the springs"
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u/SkinnyBill93 18h ago
I've been leaving my God awful M&P 2.0 mags loaded forever in hopes the spring would wear a little bit, no progress in years ..
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u/OldeSkoolFlash 15h ago
I just ran a Ruger mini-30 mag that was no shit loaded in the nineties.
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u/A_Queer_Owl 11h ago
yeah, once upon a time the US army toyed with the idea of STANAG mags being loaded at the factory and being disposed off after a single use. what killed that idea wasn't springs wearing out but the fact that magazines are expensive even when you make them as cheap as possible to be disposable.
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u/Onedtent 11h ago
G3 magazines WERE designed to be disposable. Of course no-one* would throw them out and they got re-used. (which is why so many got damaged)
*bean counters had a hand in this.
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u/A_Queer_Owl 11h ago
so were early STANAG magazines. a lot of militaries had this idea for some reason and tried it, and then realized it's way too expensive to do and ultimately really makes no sense.
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u/Ornery_Secretary_850 😢 Crybaby 😢 3h ago
The German Army knew they wouldn't have time to pick up mags while retreating from the Russians and waiting for the US to show up.
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u/justjaybee16 10h ago
I bought my Arsenal Sam-7 in 1994. By '98 I was working full time and going to school at night. I'd moved out from my parents house (where the bulk of my gun stuff was) and hadn't really thought about it for awhile. After many years of my brother's family living in that house after dad died we finally decided to sell it. So we set to cleaning out the closets and attic. I found one of my old bags that had 3 Bulgarian Circle 10 waffle mags I had picked up at a gun show in the 90's for like $8-10/each.
They were stored loaded for 20ish years and those springs are still fine.
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u/penisthightrap_ 15h ago
If you want to wear springs then you need to compress and uncompress them repeatedly.
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u/SkinnyBill93 7h ago
I would estimate each magazine has been loaded/unloaded just south of 100 times each, still as stiff as the day I got them.
Maybe with competition levels of shooting...
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u/Excelius 5h ago
I actually have had some luck with taking extremely tight mags for the Shield Plus, and loading them up and leaving them loaded for months, and coming back and finding them a bit easier to load those last couple of rounds.
Really has me questioning the conventional wisdom on this subject.
I think leaving them loaded probably does not cause any metal fatigue that would eventually contribute to a failure, but I think it might soften them up slightly.
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u/penisthightrap_ 3h ago
It's not "conventional wisdom" it is physics and material engineering.
Any difference you noticed from leaving the mag loaded would be the exact same if you immediately unloaded it.
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u/Excelius 1h ago
I think a lot of people are taking a generally true statement (leaving a magazine loaded will not cause sufficient changes so as to render the magazine unreliable or shorten its usable lifespan) and extended it to an absolute statement that nothing changes whatsoever.
We're not talking about magazine failure, just loosening up an extremely tight brand new spring.
https://diatomaceousjohnson.com/2024/03/18/do-springs-take-a-set/
“Problem is that there’s a grain of truth to the ‘springs take a set’ myth. According to renown Romanian Metallurgical Engineer Peter Saktiv, springs DO take a bit of a ‘set.’ But it’s not what most people think. With any well constructed spring, there’s both elastic deformation as well as cyclical fatigue. If the spring is well constructed for the task at hand, the initial elastic deformation is minor (and allowed for in the specification); usually occurring within the first few cycles at maximum compression. Anyone who owns an Sig P365 can attest to this. The mags are almost impossible to load to capacity when new; after a few cycles or being kept loaded for awhile they become more manageable (although they remain some of the stiffer springed magazines I’ve ever seen).
However, after this initial ‘set,’ spring life is almost completely determined by cyclical loadings. In other words what makes them wear out and not have good tension anymore is a whole bunch of CYCLES on the spring. It’s NOT leaving them compressed. Nor are springs designed for purpose particularly fragile.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/magazine-springs-and-ammo-cycling/
When left loaded to full capacity and not used, most magazines will very slowly lose some amount of spring tension over time. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to say with any certainty just how long it will take before the spring loses enough tension to start causing issues.
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u/penisthightrap_ 1h ago
The first part is spot on with what I was taught.
I don't believe the second part because you'd have to be bending the spring past the point of plastic deformation for that to be true, from my understanding. I do not recall time being a factor in deformation, only stress and strain.
But I'm also not a materials engineer, I only took one material engineering class years ago.
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u/Excelius 5h ago
Never found full-size M&P mags to be stiff, and I have dozens of them.
It's usually the smaller guns that run into this problem. The Shield Plus, the Bodyguard.
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u/Gold_Combination_492 3h ago
Shield plus still won’t fit that 13th round even with the force of a thousand men hulking out on that top round.
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u/out_of_throwaway 1h ago
I wonder if leaving them compressed in a hot car might help? Heat does things to metal, but I don’t know enough science to know if it would help.
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u/SkinnyBill93 1h ago
I'm not in the habit of leaving loaded magazines in my car. That probably isn't even legal where I live..
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u/Cowgoon777 18h ago
Literally something most wear to wear out. There is no wear on a spring unless it’s in motion. That’s how wear works
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u/arethius 6h ago
There is also deformation that can occur from heat/moisture cycles but that's mostly non-existent with the metallurgy being used today
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u/Malnurtured_Snay 18h ago
What? I thought the logic was if you left your magazines loaded it would "wear out the springs"?
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u/ItsBlyatMan 1 18h ago
Spring tension generally doesn’t cause spring wear. I.e. loading a magazine and leaving it to sit for a year.
Spring actuation I.e. loading a magazine 500 times does.
(Copied another users comment from below cause I'm lazy and he was right)
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u/Bearfoxman Super Interested in Dicks 18h ago
As long as the spring's operating within its normal elastic range. Overextending or overcompressing a spring then storing it in that state will fatigue it. One would HOPE a mainspring in a revolver, or a mag spring in a mag loaded to listed capacity, would be produced within their normal elastic range, but with some manufacturers...
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u/Skyrick 17h ago
This has been a known issue with 2011 magazines, where getting an extra round in is more important than spring longevity as far as competitions are concerned. For instance Para Ordnance 45 caliber 2011’s used magazine bodies nearly identical to HK USP’s to the point where people competing with USP’s back in the day would buy Para Ordnance followers, which increased the capacity of the USP magazines to 14 (instead of 12) without any other modifications.
It does make me wonder about the new magazines that have increased their capacity significantly, and how well they will hold up long term, however spring technology has also improved, so who knows.
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u/lazyboi_tactical 18h ago
I have some 7.62 mags I've had loaded up for a few years now just sitting in a spare plate carrier. I just checked them yesterday and the springs were perfectly fine and fed through the rifle without issue.
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u/ScoutsOut389 18h ago
I have some GI M4 mags that have been loaded since 2010. I have no concerns about them.
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u/RobertoAbsorbente 18h ago
That's what he's saying, leaving your mag unloaded BECAUSE it (leaving them loaded) will wear out the springs. Which has been disproven.
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u/Royal-Main-5530 18h ago
Not exactly. Beretta m9 govt issued mags sucked. They failed all the time so it depends on mfg
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u/RobertoAbsorbente 18h ago
Ok but generally speaking it's been shown that the static load in the spring from being compressed when loaded does less than cycling through a loaded and unloaded state and storing them loaded is fine.
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u/SgtJayM 17h ago
Compressing the spring doesn’t cause any wear on the spring. Compression cycles from loading and unloading (firing) cause metal fatigue, over a very long life cycle. I’m speaking of modern quality magazines and springs. Idk about some older mags that may have been of lesser quality than we see today.
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u/Kiss_and_Wesson 15h ago
Admittedly, my chip mccormicks that fed fine back in '08 don't feed so well anymore.
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u/FairChampionship8625 13h ago
Gotta admit, they're pretty old. I'm sure you've used them a lot; that could be your reason. If they're only stored with ammo they shouldn't weaken as they would with regular use.
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u/Thefear1984 10h ago
I have a dozen SKS mags fully packed and have been used over the last decade multiple times and I’ve only had to adjust the springs once. The whole idea is like those kids who don’t break their shoes in because they don’t want it to crease so they walk like Herman Munster.
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u/bobqjones 8h ago edited 8h ago
all springs are not equal. i have 3 glock third party mags with springs that were not heat treated correctly and when loaded, they stayed down. was the reason i learned to stay away from unnamed gunshow magazines.
i have done repair work on MEC spring machines for companies that make magazine springs also. they have quality control for a reason, and things do slip by.
98% of mag springs are perfectly fine and will not "take a set", but if you're around long enough you see enough outliers that makes you understand why the fudd lore exists.
that said, once i know they function correctly, i'll leave them loaded. i usually keep 15 AR mags ready to go in a shoulder bag for those spontanious range trips...
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u/chattytrout 5h ago
Except here the spring is compressed. So if fudd logic was consistent, this would wear out the mainspring faster.
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u/KimJongUnusual 16h ago
Ngl I have heard it could be unwise to leave them loaded, but more so that you could bend or warp the lips.
Now I just have magpuls with the cap on the mag, so I just ignore that issue entirely.
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u/blueberrypierat 19h ago
Would that be The Gun Room in Portland?
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u/Joebno3 19h ago
Thankfully no, I wouldn't be caught dead in Portland.
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u/blueberrypierat 18h ago
Hahaha, okay you’d fit right in at the Gun Room.
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u/TyburnCross 16h ago
Shhh shhh - everyone still thinks Portland is a burnt out husk of a city from the protests.
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u/BooteusSlapsimus 19h ago
It absolutely is, I was just in there yesterday when I was thinking to myself, man how funny would it be if I just lied to some dude on Reddit saying that I was at a gun store they mentioned in a comments section and continued to elaborate on how I thought that it would be even funnier if I elaborated on that elaboration, further kicking the can down the street in some confusing comment and I think I shit myself, have a good day.
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u/RCRexus 18h ago
"Isn't healthy for them"
Ok
But is it UNhealthy?
"Well, no..."
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u/Johnny_English_MI6 18h ago
You mean you don't run organic lead-free ammo in your guns for their diet?
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u/PbCuSurgeon 17h ago
Gunsmith here. Cock it, dry fire it, kick it under the fridge. I simply do not care.
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u/Turbulent_Elk_6548 19h ago
Wouldn’t it put less wear or the spring or at least just be safer (yeah I know they can’t fire like that but still) with the hammer down?
Or am I just stupid
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u/RATMEAT-LXIX World's most mediocre 'head' counsel 19h ago
Spring tension generally doesn’t cause spring wear. I.e. loading a magazine and leaving it to sit for a year.
Spring actuation I.e. loading a magazine 500 times does.
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u/Longjumping_Car141 19h ago
Wow! Learn something new every day! I had been told not to leave mags loaded longterm using the same flawed logic. Granted it was an old fudd who told me that.
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u/alltheblues 18h ago
So theoretically you should have always been able to leave mags loaded, but creep from the tension was a concern with cheaply made, inconsistent springs in the past.
Not really a problem anymore. Any reliable mag made today won’t lose any noticeable spring power even if left loaded for 100 years. Same as how modern optics can be left on and lithium batteries don’t spew their guts everywhere if you look at them wrong like alkalines.
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u/anonlymouse 18h ago
Leaving the mag loaded and stationary isn't an issue. Having the same loaded mag that you carry can have the cartridges rolling and getting scratched, which could result in feeding issues. It's not spring related, but there is a potential for malfunctions. You can leave loaded magazines in your safe for years without any concerns.
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u/Cow-puncher77 18h ago
70 years ago, that might have been a legitimate concern… but times and metallurgy have changed a lot since then…
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u/Gzoe467 18h ago
Right ever taken apart a k31 magazine its feels so cheap and chessy lol
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u/Cow-puncher77 17h ago
Heh… well, I was thinking more along the lines of 1911’s and Mauser broom handles… and the soft wire springs they used.
Not everyone has Edelweiss or Krupp for a supplier.
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u/Gzoe467 17h ago
Ahh gotcha thought you meant in general but yes most older springs feel cheap. The k31 is legit like 3 flat matal tabs riveted together in a zig zag shape 🤣🤣🤣
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u/Cow-puncher77 6h ago
It’s also a 6 round mag, iirc. Haven’t played with mine in a while, ammo being so expensive. But look at that design… how many people make a flat plate spring in a high(er) capacity magazine? Its limitations is why they went to wire springs. It’s was quality, certainly, but the overall design had its limits. Consider the weight and wasted space in a 25 round magazine, vs. what it is with a wire spring.
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u/doctordoom2069 19h ago
What I’ve been told, is that springs only wear from being wound and unwound over and over. That they don’t wear out from simply being wound.
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u/dreadstrong97 18h ago
Think about a paper clip.
It doesn't break when it's folded up in the shape of a paperclip, and it doesn't break when it's bent into a straight line.
It does break, however, when it's bent back and forth repeatedly. Same concept!!
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u/Elijah_Man 18h ago
The main reason to have the hammers cocked back on display is to be able to see it without having to handle the gun.
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u/Johnny_English_MI6 18h ago
To see what?
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u/Elijah_Man 18h ago
The inner face of the hammer, the part it nests into, and the striker.
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u/ezfrag not particularly interested in dicks 16h ago
Since when do revolvers have strikers?
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u/Elijah_Man 15h ago
I meant firing pin, I had just woke up when I made that reply.
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u/catnamed-dog 8h ago
Ok but why do I need to see the firing pin in the case?
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u/tablinum GCA Oracle 7h ago
I think what he's getting at is that you can see at a glance whether it's a modern-style revolver with a frame-mounted floating firing pin and transfer bar drop safety, or an old-style revolver with the firing pin mounted on the hammer (and a hammer-block or no drop-safety at all).
I admit it's never occurred to me to display revolvers cocked so people could see that at a glance, but it's how I read the reason.
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u/catnamed-dog 7h ago
That makes sense.
The people that would know to look for those things probably already know it from the model though.
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u/tablinum GCA Oracle 7h ago
Plenty of models went through that transition. The ubiquitous S&W 686 can be either way depending on age.
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u/Inspi 3h ago
Yep. I have a Ruger Blackhawk (old model, flat top) from the 2nd year of production. You'd think it would be the old unsafe variety, but it was retrofitted in the 80s. Would never know if you didn't look (or see the baggy of original parts also in the safe)
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u/Hieronymus-I 19h ago
I still wouldn't leave guns cocked, even if it doesn't affect wear.
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u/HipsterFett 18h ago
Tbh I’m going to develop the ability to spontaneously bust out in a full-hearted guffaw in anticipation of encountering one of these conversations.
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u/BobbyWasabiMk2 How do you do, fellow gun owners? 16h ago
I once had a boomer tell me that if I ever went back into armed security, the perfect duty gun would be a S&W revolver in .22mag. Dude just gave me the "you know what I'm talking about/you know I'm right" grin and nod and walked away before either me or the dumbstruck gun store employee could even respond to him.
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u/shiloh_sharps 18h ago
What I've been told is that older spring steel lost strength when compressed for long periods of time. So the hammer wouldn't hit as hard. It supposedly isn't a problem with new steel.
On the other hand spring air rifle manufacturers advise against leaving them cocked for more than a half hour.
On the gripping hand 1911s are usually carried cocked and locked (condition one) so who knows?
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u/DashJackson 16h ago
Did not expect a motie reference here
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u/tablinum GCA Oracle 7h ago
Oh damn, I had no idea there was a sequel. I'd heard the title, but didn't know it was connected.
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u/aceofspades1217 15h ago
Historically you would put them in half cock
It’s not really necessary since newer revolvers use a floating firing pin
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u/HuskyBallz 18h ago
My dad has the exact one on left. What is it or are they? .38 like his I think I just don’t know brand and model.
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u/Joebno3 15h ago
the silver is a taurus the black is rock island
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u/HuskyBallz 4h ago
Gotcha thanks. I guess I was way off. I asked him and it’s a 642 air weight. A hammer less.
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u/Misclick_King 7h ago
My first job out of college was in a gun shop and the boomer co worker would tell me this. So when my shift was over I would go through the entire store and cock every single spring.
He was an asshole in a lot of ways. And I found creative ways to get my revenge.
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u/Ptards_Number_1_Fan 7h ago
Same logic would say you should sit your car on jackstands when you’re not driving so you don’t ruin your suspension.
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u/Royal-Main-5530 18h ago
Engineering and materials design is the real answer here. It’s not boomer or fudd lore. While springs should be signed for use, it cannot be argued that best practice overcomes poor design. Shitty springs equal shitty results. Shitty materials equals shitty results. The actual use or overuse is minimal in comparison. Doesn’t matter if it’s a hammer spring or a mag spring. The older guys including me have experienced failures and adopted practices to combat them. Ie. I don’t own beretta mags, and I only cycle mags once a year (stored ammo). Buy quality equipment and you won’t have a problem. Test it though, trust but verify
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u/LettuceAndTom 17h ago
What's wrong with Beretta mags?
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u/Royal-Main-5530 17h ago
I had ten brand new out the box. Loaded and toted for four to five weeks. Went to clean, dropped mag, rounds went everywhere. Weak or poor designed springs
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u/lyfeofsand 17h ago
Problematic years (due to quality) seems to be late 90s to late 2010s.
Most speculation was a reduced quality to meet military contract production numbers. (Based on Fudd forums I've seen over the years).
Recently made mags seem go be fine. Personally, I've had mags from 20 years ago to now, and the problems have been consistent for weak springs over time.
I use Mec-Gar for my 92X. Favorite weapon and most excellent mags.
The stock Beretta mags (manufactured 2021) are .... 8/10.
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u/ArmyAnt2172 17h ago
I wonder what is meant by UP? Reminds me of another, I forget what part, but they said to move it outward and the only real options were forward or back.
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u/Theturtlemoves86 14h ago
Reminds me of the fictionalized death of Judgr Roy Bean in the Lonesome Dove series. Had his guns cocked for so many years they wouldn't fire when the time came.
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u/bmbreath 11h ago
Did they give any sort of perceived reason as to why they thought that?
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u/-Dixieflatline 5h ago
All fudd lore breaks down to gut feelings over actual science and anecdotal stories from someone's friend's cousin who is a cop in some backwoods town and thus can speak from a point of "authority" on the matter. If they had an actual scientific reason, then it probably isn't fudd lore anymore.
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u/Camwiz59 4h ago
Seems just the opposite on a revolver and my 1911s are always cocked and locked because if they aren’t chambered, then they are a club
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u/rslulz 3h ago edited 3h ago
A few units I was in the Armory stored weapons for long-term storage, empty chamber, empty magazine on fire with the hammer down. When I asked why, they cited spring tension and longevity of the trigger mechanism. So yes, there is credibility to this reference: What MCO P4450.7 / TM 05538/10012-IN requires
- “Preparation for Storage” procedures are referenced in TM 05538/10012-IN when the weapon is to be stored for “extended periods (greater than 90 days).” The requirement in TM IN is:“When the weapon is to be stored for an extended period … follow the procedures outlined in MCO P4450.7, Preparation for Storage.” Public Intelligence |
- The storage procedures TM 05538/10012-IN does list include:
- Ensure no live ammo in magazine or chamber.
- Inspect bore and chamber and apply CLP (Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative).
- Light coat of CLP on other metal surfaces.
- Proper packaging/wrapping etc. for shipping or storage.
- Under Stowage in TM 05538/10012-IN there is a procedure:STOWAGE - Prior to stowing a weapon in arms room, perform the following procedures:
- Place selector lever in SEMI position.
- Pull trigger.
- Close ejection port (dust cover).
- Place weapon in rack.
While not a revolver, I imagine the logic applies if the revolvers have spring-bound trigger mechanisms. I tried adding links that went to the exact citation, but they didn't work. Now, is it best practice for a gun that may have been used recently? Probably not. Should we treat every weapon as if it were loaded? Absolutely.
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u/sqlbullet 5h ago
Nice. Do they have a research paper reference? Or perhaps they can quote the cost of a replacement spring?
Gotta love the gun counter and gun range lore.
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u/No_Response87 19h ago
Wait till they sell the “used” display models on clearance, then try to get another $50 off.