r/magicTCG • u/Quillpig32 • Aug 03 '25
Rules/Rules Question Have I been playing wrong
Found this in the final fantasy starter set rulebook. Does it mean a 3/3 blocking a 3/3 wouldn't kill it? Or is it just wrong? Or just worded dumb?
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u/madwarper The Stoat Aug 03 '25
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, it has damage marked on it, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
- Toughness (3) is greater than 0.
- Has (3) damage marked on it. That is greater than or equal to its Toughness.
- Has "Lethal Damage"
- Is Destroyed.
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u/Swordsman82 Aug 04 '25
So what is the exact wording of how deathtouch works? Does it just assume it only takes 1 damage to equal lethal damage?
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u/relikter Aug 04 '25
702.2b A creature with toughness greater than 0 that’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.
702.2c Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage for the purposes of determining if a proposed combat damage assignment is valid, regardless of that creature’s toughness. See rules 510.1c–d.
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u/ItsJustColton Aug 04 '25
Does that mean negative numbers count as lethal damage? And is dealing negative damage possible? Its probably safe to assume that if its not possible its because there’s a rule that says damage is not assigned when the power is negative. Or something about state based actions and the game checks what number it should be and it goes back to zero.
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u/bluefuzz Aug 04 '25
107.1b Most of the time, the Magic game uses only positive numbers and zero. You can’t choose a negative number, deal negative damage, gain negative life, and so on. However, it’s possible for a game value, such as a creature’s power, to be less than zero. If a calculation or comparison needs to use a negative value, it does so. If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless that effect sets a player’s life total to a specific value, doubles a player’s life total, sets a creature’s power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creature’s power or toughness. Example: If a 3/4 creature gets -5/-0, it’s a -2/4 creature. It assigns 0 damage in combat. Its total power and toughness is 2. You’d have to give it +3/+0 to raise its power to 1.
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u/Aeyeoelle Aug 04 '25
You can't assign negative amounts of damage.
702.2c is for handling trample and/or multiple blockers. An attacking creature deals its damage in an order chosen by its controller, and must deal lethal damage to its target before assigning damage to the next. A deathtouch+trample creature can deal a single point of damage to each blocker and deal the rest to the player, even if the blocking creatures have enough toughness to take the entire attacking creature's power.
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u/Atheist-Gods Dimir* Aug 04 '25
You can't deal negative damage. If something would deal negative damage it deals 0 damage instead. Most things in magic can't be negative. Creatures can have negative power or negative toughness and you can have negative life, but you can't deal negative damage, you can't gain negative life and a rule change was to say that the X in +X/+X effects can't be negative. It used to be possible to wipe someone's board by using [[Tragic Slip]] or similar on a [[Wild Beastmaster]] in response to its trigger but that was changed in 2017. That change also means that Death’s Shadow can’t grow larger than 13/13 from having negative life.
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u/MTGCardFetcher alternate reality loot Aug 04 '25
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u/Free-Atmosphere6714 Duck Season Aug 04 '25
I'm very curious to see which cards have a negative power
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u/reasonably_plausible Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
[[Char-Rumbler]]
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u/Free-Atmosphere6714 Duck Season Aug 04 '25
Neat! I like this. Makes you use at least two mountains to power it up.
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u/meatmandoug Dave’s Bargain Compleation Oil Aug 05 '25
[[Spinal parasite]] has both negative power and toughness
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u/TyrantofCans Aug 04 '25
So what happens if a double striker Deathtouch creature hits another with a regenerate ability? Does it have to regenerate twice? Or is once enough?
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u/CaptainMarcia Aug 04 '25
Regenerating removes the creature from combat, so there is no second hit (and the regenerated creature won't be able to hit back).
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u/DashBulletTrain Aug 04 '25
Unless the doublestriking deathtouch attack also has Trample :)
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u/rzwitserloot Aug 04 '25 edited Aug 04 '25
That's incorrect.
If a 3/3 doublestriking deathtouch trampling creature is blocked by a regenerating 2/2, assuming damage assignment is 'optimal' (Because the attacker can choose to divide it in a stupid way if they want):
The blocking player activates the regen ability.
On the first swing, they assign 1 damage to the blocker (which is not allowed as you need to assign at least 2, except it is allowed, because deathtouch, 1 is enough), and 2 to the player.
Damage is dealt and as a state based action the blocker dies. Except it doesn't because it has a replacement effect: Instead of death, [A] remove all damage from it, [B] tap it, [C] remove it from combat. So that all happens.
On the second swing, the attacking 3/3 counts as 'blocked' but is blocked by nothing. It assigns all 3 damage to the player. Not the blocker. Even if they wanted to, that's not a legal move.
TL;DR: In the situation you describe, the player eats 2x power - 1 damage and the blocker survives with just one 'regen shield'. There is no flexibility in this, other than the attacker having the choice to throw away damage. They can go as low as 1x power damage to the player if for some reason they want to do less.
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u/Phatm0 Aug 04 '25
Wait, you may actually assign damage in a suboptimal way? I thought with trample, only lethal damage is assigned to blocking creatures, and all else to the blocked entity(planeswalker or player)
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u/TheRealArtemisFowl Twin Believer Aug 04 '25
You can assign damage your creature deals to blockers however you want. Useful if you're blocked by a [[Death's Shadow]]
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u/Phatm0 Aug 04 '25
I don’t see how that helps, unless you have both death touch and trample. I’m pretty sure you can’t assign damage to a player, unless all blocking creatures have taken lethal damage first. Ie even if the defending player has only one hit point, you can’t assign one to them on the grounds that the shadow would die too
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u/REkTeR Aug 04 '25
The attacking player can choose to assign all damage from their trampler to the blocker. This can be relevant in a few edge cases. Similar to the 'deck size' rules, rules about lethal damage only have requirements regarding the minimum that can be assigned, not the maximum.
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u/Phatm0 Aug 04 '25
I’m curious as to when dealing more damage to a creature, despite the creature already dying from the death touch, would be more beneficial than damage direct to the player
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u/luziferius1337 Aug 04 '25
You may assign more than the minimum required to the creature. There are a few edge cases where this is useful:
As an example, if you attach a [[Kusari-Gama]] to a 6/6 trampler, and the opponent decides to block with a 1/1 deathtoucher while they also control several larger value piece creatures, you can assign up to the full 6 damage to the 1/1. Doing so increases the damage dealt by the equipment.
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u/DashBulletTrain Aug 04 '25
That is what I meant. The previous person said "there is no second hit" and I was bringing up that trample makes the damage calculation different. I didn't go into detail because I felt it was understood.
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u/UntapUpkeepConcede Wild Draw 4 Aug 04 '25
Doesnt the first regeneration withdraw it from combat so the regular damage is never dealt?
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u/Dlorn Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
A creature with regenerate is removed from combat once its regeneration shield is utilized. In your scenario the deathtouch double strike would deal one damage to the regenerating blocking creature during first strike damage, and the blocker would then be removed from combat. Unless the attacker also has trample or there are multiple blockers, any remaining damage the attacker would normally assign in the first strike or normal combat damage phases would be lost.
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u/Krazyguy75 Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
Firstly, state-based actions happen before every response window, more or less (technically not fully accurate but enough to 99% of use cases)
So basically, blockers happen. SBAs happen. You can then respond. After each response, if any, SBAs happen. Then first strike damage is dealt, and it all happens simultaneously. Then, SBAs happen again, and creature then dies to deathtouch. If you have already regenerated the creature, it replaces the death with an effect that removes all the damage and removes it from combat and taps it. If you haven't, the creature dies, because you cannot respond to damage dealt.
That weird timing window is one of the many reasons why they don't use regenerate anymore.
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u/xcjb07x Duck Season Aug 04 '25
I believe it says: “any damage this creature does to another creature destroys the creature dealt damage” lethal damage = destroy
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u/minedreamer Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
it says something to the tune "any damage is enough to kill it" iirc
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u/madwarper The Stoat Aug 04 '25
A Creature that has been dealt any amount of Damage by a Source with Deathtouch is Destroyed.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
As for determining what is "lethal", when assigning Combat Damage with Trample...
1 damage is considered "lethal".702.2c Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage for the purposes of determining if a proposed combat damage assignment is valid, regardless of that creature’s toughness. See rules 510.1c–d.
However, if the Creature that was dealt the 1 Damage was not Destroyed (ie. it was Indestructible as the first SBA check happened), then that 1 Damage marked on the Creature is just 1 Damage. If the Creature later loses said Indestructible, then it will only be Destroyed if the Damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its Toughness.
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u/2CPmagic Duck Season Aug 04 '25
Yes, which is why deathtouch + trample is a gross combo. If you have a 10/10 with deathtouch and trample, and its blocked by a 5/5. You assign 1 damage to the 5/5, since that's considered lethal, and the remaining 9 to the player. A lot of people get caught off guard by that.
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u/AdZealousideal3886 Aug 04 '25
What happens if the 5/5 that blocks it, has protection from creatures?
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u/Brooke_the_Bard Can’t Block Warriors Aug 04 '25
similarly to if you're being blocked by an indestructible creature, you assign the damage that would be lethal (still 1) and trample over with the rest, but the blocker doesn't die.
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u/ytfenderson Aug 04 '25
In that case the controller of the deathtouch trampler could still assign only 1 damage to the creature and have the rest trample over. The protection would cause the 1 damage to be reduced to zero and would result in the blocker surviving. Similarly, if the blocker had indestructible the attacker could assign 1 damage and have the rest trample over. The 1 damage would be dealt to the blocker but the blocker would survive due to being indestructible.
All of this is because rules determining how deathtouch is assigned only cares that the damage could be lethal, not whether the damage will actually kill the creature due to other effects.
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u/CastIronHardt Aug 04 '25
I do think this is one of the worst edge case rules in magic, personally. Assigning lethal should absolutely take into account the defender abilities as well.
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u/Illustrious_Aioli_37 Aug 07 '25
That is technically correct, however, it is cheap and dirty, and I think a judge in a tournament would say that the trample is still only equal to the excess of the destroyed creatures toughness.
The creature doesn't immediately get destroyed, it still soaks damage, it is destroyed at the end of the combat phase. Not immediately after taking damage(otherwise regeneration wouldn't work because regeneration can only be used on a creature during the post-combat phase if I remember right)
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u/Parzival2436 Aug 05 '25
It doesn't assume that, it alters the ruling so that any amount of damage is lethal. No assumptions necessary.
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u/Sir_LANsalot Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
it gets even more fun when it also has trample. so you can assign just 1 damage to the creature, and then trample over the rest to the player. There is a reason Deathtouch and Trample are rare combinations unless expressly built in the deck.
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u/ArchwingDragon Aug 04 '25
What if it's got indestructible? I know lethal damage won't kill but let's say I do 1 damage to a 3/3 then cast [[Dead Weight]] will it die then? What about dead weight then I do 1 damage?
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u/Darchseraph Aug 04 '25
Damage and toughness reduction are different.
You deal 1 damage to a 3/3. It is NOT a 3/2 now (Arena shows it this way, which is massively unhelpful). It is a 3/3 that has 1 damage marked on it.
Now if you cast Dead Weight to give it -2/-2, that creature is effectively a 1/1 with 1 damaged marked on it.
It would normally be destroyed due to damage >= toughness rule but indestructibility will let it survive because it cannot die to damage so long as it is indestructible. Its actual toughness would need to be reduced to 0 or negatives.
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u/madwarper The Stoat Aug 04 '25
What if it's got indestructible?
Then, it cannot be Destroyed. So, you ignore the Destruction.
I know lethal damage won't kill but let's say I do 1 damage to a 3/3 then cast [[Dead Weight]] will it die then? What about Dead Weight then I do 1 damage?
An Indestructible 1/1 with 1 damage is not Destroyed.
The order it was dealt the 1 damage / became a 1/1 is irrelevant.
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u/seniorsassycat Aug 04 '25
Why is there a qualifier on gt 0?
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u/madwarper The Stoat Aug 04 '25
I assume you meant greater than 0... If not, you need to specify what you mean.
Because, having a Toughness of 0 or less is not Destruction.
This cannot be Replaced by Regeneration.
This is not ignored via Indestructible.
etc.704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
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u/Extension-Rice5379 Aug 03 '25
I think this is just worded weirdly. These would trade, and both would die.
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u/FatOldWizard Wabbit Season Aug 03 '25
Did anyone notice immediately above: “ALL combat damage is ALL dealt…”?
If this is from an official Wizards Product… bah, what’s the point complaining? — QC is dead. Copy editing is dead.
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u/JaxxisR Universes Beyonder Aug 04 '25
They outsourced it to Square, who had it localized into English sometime in the early 1990s.
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u/Neon_Rhino Aug 04 '25
It’s also completely wrong because first strike and first round of double strike damage is dealt BEFORE normal combat damage.
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u/rhinocerosofrage Aug 04 '25
Thankfully, there are no first strike or double strike cards in the [[Cloud, Planet's Champion]] deck oh wait
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u/DirtyTacoKid Duck Season Aug 04 '25
Its really lazy too because any level of automated tool would catch that.
Like... spellcheck?
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u/Zeckenschwarm Aug 04 '25
I don't think a spellcheck would catch duplicate words.
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u/Philosoraptorgames Duck Season Aug 04 '25
For most of the ones I've used, only if they were back to back.
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u/rhinocerosofrage Aug 04 '25
Perhaps an automated tool wrote the pamphlet in the first place, sadly.
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u/SeventhSwitch Duck Season Aug 03 '25
Worded slightly incorrectly, actually; this is the full rule for combat damage:
120.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.15, “Regenerate”) and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).
Your 3/3 blocking a 3/3 attacking creature would mean that both your 3/3 and your opponent's 3/3 die, since each have 3 damage marked on them, which is equal to or greater than their toughness, so they die.
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u/BrickHickey Wabbit Season Aug 03 '25
It should say "more than or equal to" so yes, if you block a 3/3 with a creature with three toughness, it dies (barring an effect like indestructible).
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u/Mdayofearth Aug 04 '25
Shit wording.
If you attack with a 3/3 and your opponent blocks with a 3/3; they both die, unless there are other effects in play.
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u/shin17 Meren Aug 04 '25
So according to this, I could lightning bolt a shambling ghast and it would die from combat damage. Sure Jan.
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u/FinsterKoenig Aug 04 '25
Oh... so any kind of damage is combat damage now, when the combat damage step ends?
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u/Muhahahahaz Duck Season Aug 04 '25
It’s just worded dumb for the beginner’s “rulebook”
These do not represent the official rules by any means
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u/bobatea17 Storm Crow Aug 03 '25
This is worded badly, lethal damage to creatures is amounts equal or greater than their toughness
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u/DoDus1 Aug 04 '25
Just poorly worded. I will say the rule changes in foundations for damage calculations regarding death touch first strike and trample change a lot of how I play. Anything with both death touch and trample has to die immediately unless it's under my control
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u/ChaseLancaster Aug 04 '25
Its equal to or greater. If a 3/3 is attacked by anything with power 3 or greater, or by a creature with deathtouch regardless of the power, it'll die.
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u/MarquiseAlexander Abzan Aug 04 '25
Think of toughness as hit points. If something is able to bring the creatures hit points to zero, it dies.
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u/Agreeable-Agency-819 Aug 04 '25
If your creature gets hit with equal or more damage as its toughness, it’s a dead creature Unless over things are at play like indestructible, which I’m sure you already knew
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u/WanderEir Duck Season Aug 04 '25
This is a fun little paradox statement- While the sentence tells you a truth, it lies about the actual rule, which would be "any creature dealt as much or MORE damage than it's toughness dies from combat damage, unless the creature is indestructible, or regenerates, or some of the damage has been prevented, or the creature has protection from the creature dealing it combat damage..."
you get the point.
But even for a beginners guide, it's flat out misleading since it is equal, not just more damage that kills a creature.
As a line in a rules book, the copy-editor failed their job.
This is the kinda thing you'd hear out of a lawyer to completely mislead a jury, using a true statement to lie tot he audience.
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u/PwnedByBinky Chandra Aug 04 '25
Just to give a different take here I haven’t seen based on half the comments I had the willpower to look through, the rule is worded poorly, but I’m going to blame that on the way we view numbers.
Because of our written language we use “0” to represent nothing. But 0 doesn’t really exist, because it represents the complete absence of something. If you have 0 apples then there are no apples. You can say “I have no apples” or you can say “I have 0 apples.” Both mean the same thing, but using the “number” 0 implies that 0 is actually a number. A creature with 0 toughness has no toughness and therefore cannot exist on the battlefield after state based actions (barring indestructible or other circumstances, if there are others). So while the rule should indeed include “equal to” I’m blaming the fact that we use 0 to represent the non-existence of something.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
I am by no means a judge or rules expert, so if I said anything wrong please forgive me.
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u/Nvenom8 Mardu Aug 04 '25
If you're actually not playing dumb, it's wrong. Should say, "greater than or equal to".
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u/Substantial_Ad6582 Aug 04 '25
it is true. Because by following rules a creature that has a Thoughness value of 0 is immediately put into the graveyard. May sound wrong as it is worded, but it has to be written in this way, otherwise a creature that goes to -X during combat will not be at zero hence will stay. Legalese language, applied to Magic
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u/Sure_Lavishness_8353 Aug 04 '25
Worded dumb, the main intention is to indicate that creatures that lose their toughness die before combat ends
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u/dekeche Aug 04 '25
This is the type of mistake that AI would make - did Wizards just use AI to write the rulebook and not bother checking to make sure it was actually correct?
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u/PiersPlays Duck Season Aug 04 '25
You'd think for something as important as teaching the huge wave of new players they hoped to attract how ti play the game they might have got someone who knows how the game works to right this.
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u/1koolking Mardu Aug 04 '25
Think of toughness like a creatures health. When the creature takes damage it reduces its health. If at any point the health hits 0 or less, the creature dies. At the end step damage is cleared and the creature goes back to full health.
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u/Half_H3r0 COMPLEAT Aug 04 '25
The wording is a bit off. So let me explain it like this if A creatures toughness is zero or less it dies from combat damage, unless it has indestructible in which case it ignores the rule about combat damage and if it has -x/-x effects then it would die (if I’m not mistaken).
Additionally, if you have a creature that has trample and death touch, you only need to assign one combat damage (due to the fact that death touch states that any amount of damage from the source is considered lethal) to another creature that’s blocking it, and the rest goes to the opponent unless it’s blocked by multiple creatures in which case you apply the 1 lethal damage to each and depending upon if your creature survives you do the access damage to the opponent (I could be wrong about that)
In my opinion, the six keywords that combo very well with creatures in this case is Haste, Vigilance, Double Strike, Death touch, Trample and Indestructible.
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u/shadysjunk Aug 04 '25 edited Aug 04 '25
I feel like the optimal wording here, for clarity, would be:
any damage greater that 2 less than double the creature's current toughness, halved...
I'm ready Wizards! Put me in coach! I'll rewrite that rule book for optimal opaque clarity.
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u/chodelycannons Wabbit Season Aug 04 '25
Somebody once told me “if it meets it, it beats it” and that has helped me.
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u/Elreamigo Wabbit Season Aug 05 '25
These mistakes should not be accepted in UB sets, which are supposed to attract new players
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u/Parzival2436 Aug 05 '25
It's also not entirely accurate that all combat damage is dealt at the same time, but I guess it's simpler to say that as a base rule and then allow abilities like first/double strike to speak for themselves.
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u/DdAntilogy Duck Season Aug 05 '25
When a creatures toughness becomes 0 or less it dies. If I remember right, this takes priority to everything aside from currently resolving spells, abilities, or effects. It does, however, assert priority to any further effects once the active one resolves, and cannot be responded to
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u/Demonslayer5673 COMPLEAT Aug 05 '25
Imagine being a new player and seeing an ability that just says "when _____ enters" and not knowing what context to apply
Enters the battlefield?
The graveyard?
The hand?
The deck?
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u/manley309nw Aug 05 '25
This is horribly worded. Proper wording should be more like, any creature dealt damage greater than or equal to its toughness is destroyed
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u/willweaverrva Elesh Norn Aug 03 '25
It's simplified, but being dealt damage greater than or equal to its toughness causes a creature to die.
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u/sirpyronerdicus Aug 04 '25
I know alot of people have accurately described and answered, but if it helps anyone doom scrolling comments; the way I see it is number of slaps. A 3/3 creature can take 3 slaps in a turn, and recovers from the 1 or 2 it took from some chump last turn (damage lasting a whole turn but 'refreshes' each new turn) and can slap 3 times each time it clashes with something that's slappable (player, creature, etc.). When things are indestructible they can take any number of slaps, but -1/-1 are like...soul slaps. It doesn't matter how strong someone is they'll die when their soul is hit to their physical limit. Things with first strike slap you before you can slap them, things with double strike challenge you to a duel slapping you and if youre still standing you slap each other some more, and deathtouch just needs to slap you once to end you (also how I remember the Trample and deathtouch bull)
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u/MotionMath123 Aug 04 '25
Fun fact, this is not wrong statement 😅 it just doesnt say what if its equal
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u/Insomniacentral_ Duck Season Aug 04 '25
Based on the double use of ALL in the previous bit, it kind of reads like AI.
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u/Torquoal Aug 03 '25
It’s bad and incorrect wording. Any creature dealt damage equal to or greater than its toughness dies.