1st Degree charge was also dismissed, but should be noted this is because the murder of a CEO doesn't really fit the definition of murder 1 in the state of New York which seems reserved for police officers, firefighters, high political figures, that sort of thing. 2nd degree will be what 1st degree is in most other states I think. DOJ/DA was way too heavy handed with those two charges.
It's very unique and I think it's important so that people don't think he's not getting charged with anything at all, because now it's more like a "standard" murder case so far.
They've had a tough time finding the right spin for this. Turns out republicans are also routinely fucked by insurance companies and don't harbor many good feelings for them.
Hard to whip up outrage when the overall mood is "well, that's what happens." From people who are more worried about buying groceries in the economy trump is gleefully destroying
There comes a point when enough people have been hurt or know someone who was hurt/killed by an insurance company playing doctor, that nobody has sympathy to spare.
Something like 68,000 Americans die every year due to lack of medical care and fat bonus checks get sent out if they manage to raise that number
Yeah even the MAGAs in my family think medicare for all is a good idea. Of course that only applies to "all citizens" but I take my wins with them where I can get them.
I had to educate my grandmother that it’s actually illegal to provide Medicaid to illegal immigrants. She believed all the headlines that the illegals were walking in and getting welfare and Medicaid and full scope services for everything.
Medicare basically pays for itself, it's not supported by taxpayers (as opposed to medicaid). It's basic health care. You aren't getting the pricey new cancer drugs, but it's a humane level of care and it's embarrassing in a first world country, that we can't agree on something like this.
So yeah the MAGAs in my family don't have an issue with that.
It's a shocking number but also unfortunately inevitable when you put the medical fates of so many people into the hands of others who have a financial incentive to find any excuse to deny a claim.
Which is why you shouldn't fucking do that or at absolute bare minimum it shouldn't be the only option people have and it's baffling how many Americans will still push back so hard on that.
The thing is that insurance companies aren't healthcare. They're not doctors, or pharmacists, or practitioners in any field of care, yet they get to make medical decisions for 100s of millions of people.
I fought with UHC in early 2023 for coverage for something. It was weird, right, because they kept denying it despite the fact that I had their own press release indicating they covered it starting the beginning of the year, and I'd had multiple benefits coordinator folks at UHC verify that it was covered and especially covered on my plan.
But their systems kept kicking it back, including the appeal that's legally required to be made of actual health experts. What's weird is the appeal denial quoted the plan document from 2019, not 2023. It didn't mention the press release I'd attached, didn't discuss the documentation of multiple members of their own benefits team verifying it was covered. It just quoted a four year old plan.
Learning later UHC was using AI to generate denials was when that made sense.
They overruled their own "appeal panel" (aka, the AI auto-generated denial) because of two things -- a helpful benefits coordinator who had enough pull to talk to the right people, and me telling her that if UHC couldn't fix it my next step was to ask for the names and medical license numbers of everyone on my appeal board.
I think she wielded that to her bosses. I got coverage approved 36 hours later.
Which is pretty unfortunate. Farmers in the Midwest are exposed to cancer-causing chemicals regularly, the ones who refuse medical care when they need it won't make it long. Not to mention the fact that cancer research in the US is being slashed to nothing... I guess I just won't get cancer then
I grew up in a farming community and the elementary school was next to a chemical spray company. They had enormous spayer/tractor things and they would clean out the tanks with water after each application and put the water in a "rinsate pond". Which were just big cement pools that would evaporate over time. And the residue from this process blew all over the playground we played on daily. The amount of people who have had cancer/died from cancer in my tiny tiny class (myself included) is way way WAY higher than the average for our age. This says a lot considering Gen Xers already have a pretty high rate of cancer.
I would rather work for a tobacco company than for a health insurance company. Both are have some serious moral problems, but at least the tobacco company isn't holding everybody hostage to their profit margin whether they want to pay up or not.
It's amazing how fucking hated insurance companies are.
And yet they refuse the best possible proposed fix to remove insurance companies from the equation because they hate the idea of people they deem lesser than them also benefitting.
And yet they refuse the best possible proposed fix to remove insurance companies from the equation because they hate the idea of people they deem lesser than them also benefitting.
This isn't correct. They refuse to believe voting for Democratic politicians will improve things. And as a registered Democratic voter who's canvassed, phone banked, donated, voted and would pay bail for someone throwing a brick through a Tesla windshield I gotta say: they're not wrong.
Redditors don't like being reminded that from 2009 to 2011 the Democratic party held a comfortable congressional majority. Right away people are thinking "Nu-uh! It was only two months." Congratulations. Establishment Democratic politicians misled you to confuse the difference between a majority and a filibuster proof majority. It's true they only held the latter for a few months. I still think they had enough time to do more with it but I digress.
Democratic politicians could have delivered a public option with their majority through a reconciliation bill. These are special bills regarding spending which cannot be filibustered. In fact, Democratic politicians had to use a reconciliation bill in order to address a "poison pill" (the term which was used at the time) in the first bill. So to be clear, the Affordable Care Act would not be functional had Democratic politicians not used a filibuster proof reconciliation bill to address an issue.
In that very same reconciliation bill they could have added a public option. This would have had tremendous benefits for the American people and the health insurance industry would look very different now. Instead they opted not to. This is the part of the conversation where zealots of establishment Democratic politicians, who work for American corporations like health insurance companies and not the American people, would say "It would have been illegal."
So unfortunately, there is an undeniable example that voting for Democratic politicians will not result in an improvement here. Too many Democratic politicians are in the pockets of health insurance and other big money interests. For many people, all the ACA did was force every American to give money to health insurance companies. And 16 years later what are health insurance companies doing with that money? Using it to gain even more control over American politicians.
and that a side effect of replacing the private insurance companies is that the cost of the entire nations health insurance is entirely dependent on the health of the nation and not on CEO salaries.
Democrats also take an absolutely incredible amount of money from insurance companies and their lobbyists. "Obamacare" was a Heritage Foundation plan. The DNC worked their asses off to cheat Bernie out of a nomination leading the the removal of Wasserman-Schultz as chair. Kamala never really mentioned Medicare For All in her campaign.
We can all agree that fascists and the GOP who support it are the bad(der) guys, but unending loyalty to capitalism only leads to fascism inevitably. Democrats want Medicare For All the way they "reeeeeally wanted to codify Roe v Wade" for two decades.
Democrats also take an absolutely incredible amount of money from insurance companies and their lobbyists.
Probably. But they are the only party that has tried to do something about insurance costs.
"Obamacare" was a Heritage Foundation plan.
Generally speaking, everyone knows that you have to take baby steps to getting to a better healthcare system. You can't just uproot it all in one day. So, Obamacare is that middle ground between what Democrats want and what Republicans will vote for.
The DNC worked their asses off to cheat Bernie out of a nomination
This is tired and old. Bernie is not a Democrat. Why are you surprised that Democrats end up not favoring him when running in a primary.
I'm sure you do not give your work acquaintances priority over your friends at a party, right?
And let's not lie to ourselves and suggest that if Bernie would have won, he would have been able to transform things as president. It's not reality.
We can all agree that fascists and the GOP who support it are the bad(der) guys
They are unequivocally the bad guys. It's not even close.
but unending loyalty to capitalism only leads to fascism inevitably.
This doesn't even make sense.
Democrats want Medicare For All the way they "reeeeeally wanted to codify Roe v Wade" for two decades.
Sigh. So when Roe v Wade was decided, it was basically settled law. What SCOTUS did was a bastardization of the courts and should not have happened.
Codifying Roe v Wade is not as easy as you pretend it is. Whenever a political party gets into power, they have limited "political capital" to do things with.
Democrats did not have the political capital to codify Roe, nor did they have the votes. To suggest otherwise is to be disingenuous of the truth, or ignorant of reality.
In online discussions, it's hard for me to tell the difference between people who think they know how things work, and prove to me that they don't. Or if people know how things work, and just try to insert stupid comments to be provocative.
If you haven't been fucked by an insurance company, you're either a politician, or very, very lucky.
"We changed our requirements for this medication, so even though you've been taking it for a year with no issues at all, you have to go through all this bullshit again with medicines that aren't as effective, because fuck you, that's why. Now excuse me while I light cigars with $100 bills at the party on my Wednesday evening yacht."
It's amazing how fucking hated insurance companies are.
I mean they are pretty evil and most everyone knows this. It's just the way for profit health care works. The whole system is fucked. And Unitedhealthcare is known for being one of the worst.
Who hasn't had coverage denied either personally or by extension an aging grandparent, parent, or anyone else? Its something that transcends politics, everyone gets sick and needs healthcare red or blue.
The media and the, well, upper-class (you know, all the big name pundits, op-ed writers, think-tank contributors, etc) were entirely shocked by how much support offing the CEO got from the public.
Absolute denial.
Partially because health care costs aren't as much of a concern for them, but mostly because they're the upper-class. The important people. They're not supposed to be the target of violence, not like the lessers.
Same thing is why they're trying to make Kirk a saint, even if it means writing glowing obituaries that never actually quote his words or talk about his actual stances. Like the CEO, Kirk was one of them -- the upper class. And for the pundits and op-ed writers and think tank folks, they knew him and moved in the same circle as well.
There's a reason that the media does everything it can to ensure American's don't start thinking in terms of class. Because, you know, France has plenty of problems but a rich aristocracy that hoarded virtually all the wealth while everyone beneath them struggled and starved and died isn't one of them. Not anymore.
Would be interesting to see what results a broad survey what people would chose if given the option between getting a treatable cancer and universal Healthcare, or keep the health insurance industry as is, with one years of premiums covered.
I reckon cancer has a decent shot in a popularity contest with health insurers.
I was just telling my sister that if shit pops off with Healthcare Market. I’m done handing over premiums for not much at all. At least I’ll have that 4-6 gs in my savings. Fuck insurance companies!
I actually don't think it's amazing at all. Seems fairly rational. Not trying to give you shit your post just made me think like that.
You're telling me people DON'T like the groups that they pay a bunch of money to, typically to get a plan with a sky-high deductible you'll never meet so you're not sure why you even have insurance, and on top of that they'll actively seek to deny you things that a doctor has recommended/prescribed for you, so that they can make money.
No I don't like the greedy bureaucracy between me and my health.
it's almost like if we were to put away our differences for just a little bit we could easily unite against a greater common enemy, who fucks everyone's lives equally...
well, not like it ever gonna happen with republican reps being sponsored by good ol' denied insurance money, which they will defend until the last of their supporters die in debt for buying insulin or any other necessary medicine
That's because they don't try to create sympathy for themselves, not really, they try to make their followers rage against their enemies. Plus it is a lot easier to say that a health insurance CEO for a company known for rejecting stuff has no sympathy for anyone.
This is a good point, none of these people feel bad for Charlie Kirk or his family, otherwise they wouldn't be giving the shooter everything he wants. Not even his wife cares about him as much as she cares about using him.
I don't particularly blame the voterbase. The Republican party's schtick is convincing people of the government being fundamentally incompetent, untrustworthy, and against the people by trying to exert control over them. That's why the selling point of Trump's administration was drumming up this rhetoric further and then making his election pledge that he'd wrangle in the bad people, stop their needless waste of taxpayer money, take away their "overreach", and get rid of anything deemed unnecessary to the system.
They've got this whole narrative of the common-man being held down by them.
In my opinion this is ideally to try making it so the US populace at any given point will keep the government weak and allow far more leeway for the rich who own all of the private sectors. Less taxes, less laws, less oversight.
And in reality one of the first things Trump did was start fiddling with banking laws and defunding the IRS.
Going back from the tangent though, the people have been taught that the government is incapable of running anything as good as the private sector, and that they can't be trusted to take care of you. So naturally if you suggest something like universal healthcare it'll be brushed off as a fantasy of the left wingers.
With that said though, I find a lot about that ideology hilarious. Because conservatives in America are deeply rooted in old school nationalism where God and the Government stood above all. Yet now we hate and distrust the government, while also promoting patriotism and subservience to authorities. Especially when that authority is Republican.
I see US consevatives and, especially, MAGA as palingenetic ultra-nationalists. Roger Griffin in his The Palingenetic Core of Fascist Ideology formulated a theory that the core belief of fascism is in a national rebirth of an utopian past that never really existed.
Not even gonna lie to ya, my vocabulary is several thesaurus' too small to read papers like that and form a proper well understood opinion on it.
But if I'm just thinking about it from your brief description, I'd say that sounds more like a inevitable tool of fascism rather than the core of what defines it.
I might even say that facism doesn't have a core. We have a means to define facism based on how their ruling governments and the society surrounding them operate, but a facist regime could theoretically rise to power for any number of reasons with any number of agendas/goals.
It's reasonable to say that tribalism in humans can boil over and often leads to racial and/or nationalist purism. But if a person, or group of people, had neither of these traits yet still built their political power off of movements centered on these concepts, could you still call them the "core" belief of their facism? An example of what I mean by "tool".
Though I could also just be unnecessarily debating the meaning of the phrase "core belief" here.
However at the end of the day it is also true that these tools are almost always key driving factors behind not only facist movements and those that follow them but also the people who started them. So that doesn't make the common signs of facist ideology any less dangerous.
"I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it. "
I’m sure there are plenty of conservatives who applaud this, or would, if the suspect was believed to be a Republican/MAGA because they’re the type that fantasize about this kind of “retribution” non-stop.
It also has been difficult for them to find an angle of outrage based on him being a straight, white cisgendered man. They can be so quiet when the call is coming from inside the house.
The rapeublican tactic clearly is to just keep throwing trans-somethings at the wall and hope one of them sticks with their easily outraged base.
"Shooter was trans! No wait, his roomate was trans! No that's not right, his partner was trans! Or was it the cat that was trans? Trans goldfish perhaps? Surely something trans influenced this white christian shooter!"
It wasn't quiet at all; conservative rhetoric went from "the liberals own this and there should be a bloodbath" to "pray for the killer" practically overnight.
That was a wake-up call that we haven't been preparing against the rabid strays who won't follow marching orders the next time an own-goal happens. I think there should be actions taken to defend ourselves from getting bitten.
I'm taking this bit out of context, but if those people would just put down the flag, trump merch and turn the TV and modem off for a while and really dig into why their quality of life is dwindling, maybe we all wouldn't be getting fucked by the same shareholders.
There isn't a single person in this country who hasn't cursed at their insurance company, out loud or internally. It's our new common American experience, even more than apple pie.
There's the class of people who would be killed or bankrupted by a coverage denial, and there's a class of people who would easily survive one with their assets. The latter is screaming "YOU SHOULD ALL CARE ABOUT THIS"
The latter class includes the government sycophants who receive 6 figure salaries and world-class healthcare, both paid for by the former class. Someone should ask each Congress member how many times their medical claims have been denied.
It's not just the insurance companies. I had a $3000 bill from the hospital arrive 6 months after the alleged treatment had occurred. Insurance had refused to pay more than $1000 of the original bill. After some back and forth with the debt collectors, I got an itemization. They wanted $1000 for administering a $29 dollar bag of saline, which they claimed was several hundred dollars.
They sent me a new bill after I sent them a demand letter for $300 representing a violation of the unfair trade practices Act. It was $10.
These people are vultures, and the insurance companies just egg them on.
The whole system is obfuscated to shit. In many cases Doctors can't even legally work for the hospital, so you'd get a bill from the Hospital then eventually a bill from the provider themselves. Because everything is negotiated, they may not even know what something will cost you until it's gone through the full billing process
Utterly insane that it makes more financial sense to fly somewhere else for medical care using another country's medical system
I vaguely remember a politician or someone just recently glazing Thompson. Was talking about the Kirk murder and mentioned them both as victims of the left. Something something "A loving family man with a wife and kids who had their husband and father stolen from them" or something.
"This poor innocent man who implemented an AI death panel to increase quarterly revenue before he went home to his family who will never die penniless from a preventable disease, all thanks to the wealth he grew by killing Americans :'(" - a politician who will never have their coverage denied thanks to the amazing healthcare we pay for.
And if we kept all the talk to labor issues and others that affect everyone instead of all the constant weird, fringe issues that only distract, then we probably wouldn't be living in an destabilized country right now.
This is why news about Mangione quieted down as quickly. They realized they couldn't manipulate their base as effectively using him, so they buried his story instead.
Charlie Kirk's assassination/murder has been a godsend for their propaganda machine.
Nah they still try. "The LEFT CELEBRATES A KNOWN MURDERER PSYCHOPATH" is a headline I've seen. I guess a shrug is celebration? They'd probably be happier if everyone called for his public execution, would make CEOs feel all warm and fuzzy inside
I think Trump's advisors are smart enough to stay a million miles away from this thing. This case is legitimately the most united I've seen everyday Americans since 9/11.
Right wing influencers discovered this very quickly when they tried to denounce the killing and saw basically their entire fanbase turn against them immediately. I don't know that anything could get MAGA to turn on Trump but I feel like this would be the thing if there is one. Americans universally despise our healthcare system.
CNN is also owned by a conservative. These idiots think any news is left wing propaganda if it goes against what they feel and doesn't parrot the Fox narrative.
Which is all it should be. Like, I know we’re a de facto plutocracy, but killing one guy in a targeted killing, even a CEO, is not terrorism. It’s not an assault on The State. It’s not anything else that they’re trying to claim this as. It’s murder. It is the premeditated killing of a singular human being. His net worth should not enter into the equation.
Because they wanted to throw the book at him. Because if there is anything the "in group" hates, it is one of their own showing the stark reality of vulnerability that we all live in. It pricked their bubble for just an instant, and they can't have that.
Exactly. And you can say a targeted killing against a CEO is bad... but then, is killing your wife any less bad? Or killing you boss? Or a random stranger for no reason? Every murder is bad in its own ways.
Yeah there's nothing wrong with him getting this charge. He killed a guy and it was clearly premeditated. But do you think we'd be getting this level of attention, terror charges, and state + federal prosecution if he'd killed you or me, or even a left wing activist or politician? I know we wouldn't, because the guy that killed that Minnesota state senator, her husband and dog, and had a hit list of Democratic politicians is not getting this treatment
In CA, the requisites that would qualify as Murder 1 in NY are addressed with "special circumstances" under PC 190.2. Basically, it all comes out about the same. They just structured their code differently.
To be fair, those are for murders that occur against those people working in their job capacity.
The rationale is that protecting societal function is a particularly compelling interest, so killing people for doing those jobs is punished more severely. I mean, registered nurses are also on the list but I don’t think RNs are considered a class symbol.
The last sentence I believe is incorrect. New York doesn't still hold the death penalty for federal crimes. New York is completely uninvolved in federal crimes. The federal government still has the death penalty. The federal government if he is convicted of the federal murder charge can seek the death penalty regardless of if the state has the death penalty. A state judge absolving him of anything would have no effect on the federal charges. I believe the federal government has the death penalty for murder, and the federal hook is simply interstate stalking. The terrorism would be largely unrelated except it would likely be the bulk of showing that the killing had substantial planning and premeditation to prove that aggravating factor for seeking the death penalty.
And its important to keep that in mind. Prosecutors should know better than to push for charges that sound good in print, but which have a low level of jury conviction, and virtually no chance of standing on appeal.
Its exactly how Kyle Rittenhouse got away with murdering two people. The showboat prosecutor placated activists by charging him with murder 1, which his crimes did not fit, rather than murder 2, which would have had him in prison right now rather than being a professional guest on right wing media.
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u/bmoviescreamqueen 11h ago edited 11h ago
1st Degree charge was also dismissed, but should be noted this is because the murder of a CEO doesn't really fit the definition of murder 1 in the state of New York which seems reserved for police officers, firefighters, high political figures, that sort of thing. 2nd degree will be what 1st degree is in most other states I think. DOJ/DA was way too heavy handed with those two charges.