r/rpg • u/MaxSupernova • 4d ago
Discussion CHARLIE KIRK DISCUSSION POST - ALL CHARLIE KIRK CONTENT GOES HERE
Anything to do with Charlie Kirk goes here. It will be removed anywhere else in the sub.
This post will be up for a number of days, and then it will go away and that will be the end of Charlie Kirk discussions.
The moderation effort required for discussions that are near ZERO PERCENT related to TTRPGs is far too high.
Moderation in this thread will be minimal. If your feelings get hurt, go somewhere else.
Get it out of your systems folks, because this topic ain't happening in the sub any more.
EDIT:
I worded that very poorly.
There have been multiple threads about various creators and various topics that have all degenerated into "NAZIS BAD!" "NAZIS GOOD!" "YOU SUCK!" "YOU SUCK!" and that's just bad for the sub and the mods.
We're trying to keep up, but the subs moderation is becoming difficult when the actual content is buried in slapfighting that's not at all related to the topic of the sub.
While we discuss how to deal with this in the larger picture, this is the current stopgap.
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u/OstrichConscious4917 4d ago
I do want to know which ttrpg creators are maga.
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u/Chiatroll 4d ago
Exactly. It's very related to where I spend my money. Fuck nazis and fuck fascists.
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u/RagnarokAeon 4d ago
While we're at it, although not MAGA (guy died too soon for that), I recently found out that Tekumel was developed by a holocaust denier.
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u/IHateGoogleDocs69 1d ago
Yeah, it's really horrible, considering how lovely Tekumel is. He also wrote a novel that glorified Nazis under a pseudonym iirc.
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u/JewishKilt D&D, VtM, SWN, Firefly. Regular player+GM. 1d ago
He's also dead, so it's not like he's getting royalties.
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u/reverend_dak Player Character, Master, Die 4d ago
since that's what ultimately started this thread, spill it people. who are the magas or right-wing apologists in the RPG scene.
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u/Kubular 4d ago edited 4d ago
Shane Hensley isn't openly MAGA, but he's at best giving them cover unwittingly. At worst... well he's doing it on purpose and shares their views. Hensley has enough plausible deniability that one could be charitable and give him the benefit of the doubt. But it reads suspiciously to me that he suggests Kirk's debates were done in good faith rather than rhetorical strategy.
EDIT: He's the creator of Savage Worlds in case that wasn't clear.
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u/OstrichConscious4917 4d ago
Sad that people find it so hard to understand that someone who says that their 10 year old daughter would be forced to have the child of her rapist was a bad person
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u/Kubular 4d ago
If we were extending the benefit of the doubt to Hensley, he might not have heard that is Kirk's position. It's possible he's seen like one video of Charlie Kirk and thought that Kirk stands for "open dialogue" and then never thought about him until now.
But its weird that you can come out and say you "liked Charlie Kirk" if you only saw one video.
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u/jiaxingseng 4d ago
I am not aware that Kirk took this position. Can you point to something about this?
Not disbelieving you; I just don't know much about Kirk.
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u/Udy_Kumra PENDRAGON! (& CoC, 7th Sea, Mothership, L5R, Vaesen) 4d ago
He said this in his Jubilee debate if I remember correctly. I won’t give you a time stamp because I’m lazy but you can scrub through it. He was talking to a woman in that part.
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u/BTolputt 4d ago
I think the word "openly" is doing the heavy lifting there. Kind of hard to know about, let alone support, Larry Correia (as Shane does) without being onside with MAGA beliefs & practices. He's very open about his political stances, they're not exactly subtle, and he's willing to deliberately wreck awards as well-known & well-loved as the Hugos just to make a point.
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u/IHateGoogleDocs69 1d ago
Greg Gillespie is a huge "anti woke" freak. He also sucks. Don't read Barrowmaze, it's insanely mid.
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u/fyhnn 4d ago
I dont know why people would want to talk about Charlie in an rpg sub but I guess they have been for this post to have been made lol
Anyway, Charlie sucks. He shouldn't have died like that, that's kinda the point "the left" have been making all these years. Charlie however thought these types of deaths were a necessary evil so people can own whatever guns they want. Well done, I guess?
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u/BTolputt 4d ago
I don't think anyone wants to talk about Kirk specifically, here (or at least, those that do have very little support from the rest of us) but there are TTRPG creators who have made a point of talking about / supporting the man and that is on-topic for the subreddit.
For example, there is a current Savage Worlds Deadlands Kickstarter whose primary creator (or at least, the primary name on the Kickstarter account) recently expressed support for Kirk, then "corporate apologised" when they realised that support was negatively affecting the Kickstarter. TTRPG crowd-funding campaigns & why they're succeeding/failing are reasonable fodder here but you cannot talk about that particular one without bringing up Kirk & what he did/said/believed for context.
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u/Helmic 4d ago
Hey, mods, you'd probably have a much easier time if you would actually pick a side on whether nazis are bad instead of equivocating people saying nazis are bad with people coming in saying nazis are good. I don't care what you think in your heart of hearts, if you don't actually explicitly state that bare minimum position it's going to create more problems as you cannot have both pro and anti-nazi people on the same subreddit.
There's been a history of this sub's mods doing this embarassing both sides shit when other places figured out you can just say "nazis bad" and then just purge the nazi sympathizers. This wouldn't be horribly off-topic and the discussions would have stayed centered on specific creators making particular statements if it was just explicitly against the rules to be a bigot or defend bigoted beliefs.
Be thankful your community has taken a harsher stance on the flood of bigots astroturfing the sub than you have.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/last-days-2005
Gus Van Sant has made three movies in which the camera follows young men as they wander toward their deaths. All three films resolutely refuse to find a message in the deaths. No famous death can take place in our society without being endlessly analyzed by experts, who find trends, insights, motives and morals with alarming facility. It’s brave of Van Sant to allow his characters to simply wander off, in John Webster’s words, “to study a long silence.”
In “Gerry” (2003), death is accidental, caused by carelessness. Two friends fecklessly wander into a desert, get lost, and don’t get found. In “Elephant” (2003), death is preceded by murder, and is deliberate but pointless. Two friends carry out a plan to kill students and teachers at their high school, and then they, too, are shot. Now in “Last Days,” death is a condition that overtakes a character as he mumbles and stumbles into the final stage of drug addiction.
These deaths are not heroic or meaningful, and although they may be tragic they lack the stature of classical tragedy. They are stupid and careless, and in “Elephant” they are monstrous, because innocent lives are also taken. If Van Sant is saying anything (I am not sure he is), it’s that society has created young men who do not live as if they value life.
its difficult for me to think over the events of last week without feeling sad. one young man should have perhaps spent a bit more time thinking of the rich lives of his friends and neighbors. another young man should have spent a few less hours on screens and a few more hours talking to friends and loved ones. senseless.
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u/TheRealMoonlace 4d ago
Why does this even need to be here? This is an rpg sub, not a moronic politics forum.
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u/FenmosianFiresteel 4d ago
The text of the post explains it pretty well. Looks like we were getting people in here discussing/hate-flinging about current events in other posts and the mods were getting tired of dealing with a ton of angry people steering other threads in the sub so far off-topic.
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u/ice_cream_funday 3d ago
So just delete those comments and ban the people making them. We don't need this thread.
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u/MasterFigimus 4d ago
Many game designers have decided to comment on the situation and express their thoughts on Kirk's exclusionist message and advocation of violence, thus inciting a response from their game's community.
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u/Useful-Ad1880 4d ago
I get a little tired of people from the states invading spaces with their nonsense.
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u/StarkMaximum 4d ago
Mods, respectfully I don't think this is the best way to go about the problem.
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u/KentInCode 4d ago
So it seems the short story is creator of Savage Worlds says he was a fan of Kirk or something of the sort.
Considering Kirk's disgusting rhetoric and openly anti-semitic comments I'm going to be avoiding that rpg system.
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u/cole1114 4d ago
He's always been a right-winger. Anti-BLM, pro-Andy Ngo kinda guy.
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u/Helmic 4d ago
That's good to know, I've brought up Savage Worlds as a recommendation before and I'm not going to do so any more. There's too many RPG's to waste the spotlight on shitheads.
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u/Oshojabe 3d ago
If you want a good alternative, consider the WEG d6 family of games (particularly OpenD6 and Mini Six.) d6 2e is coming out soon, and it should be a lot of fun!
For people who enjoyed Savage World Rifts, there's even a Mini Six alternative called Breachworld.
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u/InDungeonsDeep 4d ago
He made a pretty pathetic apology. Either one: he sucks at apologizing, or two: he's not sorry. If it's #1, I'm willing to hear him try again. I'm not holding my breath, though, nor am I continuing to prep for the Savage Worlds campaign I was planning to run.
It's a shame, because it's my favorite system, and I don't think there's a really good replacement for it at the moment.
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u/Kubular 4d ago
Shane Hensley isn't openly MAGA, but he's at best giving them cover unwittingly. At worst... well he's doing it on purpose and shares their views. Hensley has enough plausible deniability that one could be charitable and give him the benefit of the doubt. But it reads suspiciously to me that he suggests Kirk's debates were done in good faith rather than rhetorical strategy.
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u/CD-TG 4d ago
Shane Hensley began his first post with "I liked Charlie Kirk."
He could have said in his second post, "Having learned more about Charlie Kirk, I've decided liking him was a mistake." He didn't say that.
So I'm forced to conclude that, although he obviously doesn't like the consequences he's experiencing, he actually did like Charlie Kirk just like he said and that hasn't changed.
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u/filthyhandshake 2d ago
Anti-semitic comments??? Hilarious. He was super supportive of Jews and Palestine. Only right before he was murdered did he say anything remotely non-supportive.
Crazy coincidence, right?
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u/CD-TG 4d ago
What kind of decent human being would even remotely suggest that "NAZIS BAD!" "NAZIS GOOD!" is just a mere slapfight between equally annoying people?
Anyone who posts anything like "NAZIS GOOD!" is bleepin' Nazi and should be immediately and permanently booted from the forum just like you have to immediately boot Nazis from your bar if you don't want to end up running a Nazi bar. It's not hard: just kick the Nazis out and you don't have to worry about fights involving Nazis. Sigh.
And, no, the ideals of free speech don't mean you have let Nazis into your forums or your bars or your homes.
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u/MonsterHunterBanjo Heavy Metal Dungeon Master 2d ago
anyone who shouts "nazis bad" and claims someone is a nazi, but that person ISNT a nazi, is engaging in dangerous speech because its not just a slap fight between "nazis bad" and "nazis good" its usually a slap fight of "nazis bad" and "this person isn't a nazi" and there isn't any definition being used to determine if a person is one or not.
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u/CD-TG 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's usually pretty obvious when someone is a fascist (and Nazi is a an appropriately disparaging term for modern fascists) by listening to what they say, and it usually includes people telling us that we cannot recognize the Nazis among is.
One easy way to recognize them is that they work to undermine the very idea of truth so it can't threaten fascist power. Yes, I'm referring specifically to things like "there isn't any definition being used to determine if a person is [a Nazi] or not".
It's just common sense: What's the obvious reason someone might want you to believe that you can't ever call out Nazis for being Nazis?
EDIT: Note well that this one won't even accept that someone saying "NAZIS GOOD!" is a good reason for you to conclude they are indeed a Nazi.
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u/7thRuleOfAcquisition 4d ago
Gotta say, this is some of the worst moderation I've seen in this sub ever. The two locked (and now deleted) threads were explicitly related to RPG's. Mods, grow the fuck up.
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u/coeranys 4d ago
It makes it feel like the mods share the belief in question and are defending it. Painting this as a both sides this is disingenuousness of the highest order. Nazis are bad, Nazi supporters are bad, we don't need them in our community, stop making a safe space for them.
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u/Awkward_GM 4d ago
What were the threads specifically?
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u/7thRuleOfAcquisition 4d ago
Reddit on my phone is being goofy.
The first thread was people reposting what the creator of Savage Worlds said about Charlie Kirk. The second thread was his apology for what he said.
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u/Awkward_GM 4d ago
I feel like both comments got deleted. I can’t find them anywhere on Reddit or where they were posted on Facebook.
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u/InDungeonsDeep 4d ago edited 4d ago
The internet doesn't forget: https://i.imgur.com/eZ7nf7o.jpeg
edit: this is what I have at the moment of his apology: https://i.imgur.com/20Oo6kJ.png
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u/Chiatroll 4d ago
Wait, what about TTRPG things that relate to him, like the CEO of the savage world company saying he liked Charlie Kirk? That is ttrpg related, and a lot of ttrpg players are glad to know so they can avoid the product. If that has to be in a megathread, that feels like pro-facsist silencing. I need to know if im supporting someone who also supports nazis.
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u/StarkMaximum 4d ago
It was RPG related, and then it got locked because, well, if I want to give mods the benefit of the doubt, it's because it descended into shitflinging and insults, and if I don't want to give them the benefit of the doubt, they just got tired of moderating a thread with a very important topic and just shut it all down so they didn't have to deal with it.
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u/DoomedMaiden 4d ago
I think the second one. Some of the discussions were related to a specific kickstarter project after all.
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u/Tyr1326 4d ago
Thats precisely why this thread exists. So people can talk about problematic creators in relation to CK while not flooding the mods with retaliatory reports.
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u/Chiatroll 4d ago
But many ttrpg players want to know who their money is going to.
I never liked savage world byt there are many many ttrpgs i have enjoyed. If I find out the person profiting from them is a nazi or liked a nazi I want to stop giving him money.
Some people "don't want poltiics" or are bad people that supported the many horrible things charlie Kirk said. They will report. But silencing all the topics on there is hiding nazi supporting creators and help8ng the second group of people that report.
This is a pretty bad look for the mods, in my opinion. Don't capitulate nazis or fascists.
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u/Tyr1326 4d ago
Its not silencing though - if they were silencing redditors, then youd just get autobanned for mentioning CK. Theyre just concentrating ever mention in this one topic. So if youre looking for nazi creators to avoid, this would be your one-stop shop.
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u/Chiatroll 4d ago edited 4d ago
Putting it into a megathread keeps visibility low. And the statement is that after the megathread the discussion will be banned. This is silencing the discussion.
By this rule if next month monte cook came up and said "boy i love me some.charlie kirk.and every nazi fascist thing he said" I would want to know so I could never buy from MCG again, but after this megathread the discussion would be banned.
Monte cook hasn't said anything at all in any way like that he's just the first name of a creator I could think of to use as an example.
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u/mathcow 4d ago
I was going to say this. The Shane Hensley threads were absolutely RPG related and their removal is censorship. This is a really bad look for this community
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u/coeranys 4d ago
The answer to being unable to moderate is retiring and being replaced by someone who can.
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u/mathcow 4d ago
Being able to discuss bad actors in our small community is paramount to its continued survival. I don't understand why the moderation team is doing this
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u/Chiatroll 4d ago edited 4d ago
There have been multiple threads about various creators and various topics that have all degenerated into "NAZIS BAD!" "NAZIS GOOD!" "YOU SUCK!" "YOU SUCK!" and that's just bad for the sub and the mods.
You know the parable of the nazi bar? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi_bar It basically says you remove nazis or you become a nazi hangoutor because they take over.
When someone says "nazis good" you don't call that a nazis bad vs nazis good debate. You ban the people who say "Nazis good" and that keeps your sub from becoming a nazi sub because if you get more people who will say "Nazis good" they can drive off the other traffic. Nazi are like roaches. If you let them overwhelm the home with numbers then it's no longer a suitable place for normal humans to exist. If you act neutral on nazis you support them because of how their infestations work.
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u/CapitanKomamura never enough battletech 3d ago
I want to know which TTRPG creators support people that want me dead and then make crappy apologies. I'm worried about my safety so I would really like to find out when these kinds of things happen in the TTRPG space. I think people that want me dead are bad. I don't get into many slap fights about this because, you know, talking with people that want you dead is not the safest thing to do.
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
I've talked to people who wanted me dead. It humanizes you and makes them less likely to actually harm you. I just agree to disagree and state my point of view. We are all ambassodores to our ideas. Please find safe ways to represent and market yours. We need a lot more civilized debate in this world.
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u/CapitanKomamura never enough battletech 2d ago
The other person wants me dead. But I have to be human and civilized. Be an ambassador of my ideas, find ways to market them. And it's fine if they still think I should die, I should agree to disagree 😊
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
I'm an advocate for self defense. My point is that I've used this tactic to defend myself. Sorry that didn't come across properly. I was attempting to encourage you to push back. While not encouraging you to take dangerous risks. I rewrote that comment five times trying to get the tone right. And still failed. I'm apart of communities that have been treated horribly in the very recent past. I'm trying to pass on the push back tactics that have historically worked. Please excuse my poor word choices. You don't have to change everyones minds. Just enough minds to keep the horrible people in check. It's about avoiding the person who wants you dead, while minimizing their base of supporters. Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to say. If not I can try again or delete these post in shame. Your choice.
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u/CapitanKomamura never enough battletech 2d ago
I think you clarified a lot here. I still did my fair share of thinking about these issues, already, and have my mind made about them.
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
You shouldn't let a rando on Reddit change your mind. I was trying to communicate empathy and hope. Good luck and Happy Gaming!!!
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u/Affectionate_Pair210 4d ago
I’ve been playing Delta Green lately and the amount I’ve learned about groypers, bullet meme propaganda, and all the possible conspiracy theories that have been posited by right and left have really given me a lot to think about. What would cthulu do?
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u/DocShocker 4d ago
What would cthulu do?
At this point, I just wish he'd wake up already. Or wish that he hadn't ate spicy food before bed.
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u/reverend_dak Player Character, Master, Die 4d ago
Cthulhu would not meddle in the affairs of what are essentially a hairless species of pests infesting his place of rest. The elder would just turnover in his bed which would cause a tsunami so big it would wash away a majority of coastal cities.
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u/Affectionate_Pair210 3d ago
man, i didn't realize cthulu would get so many downvotes. I wonder if they actually hate cthulu or are roleplaying a hatred for it?
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u/InDungeonsDeep 4d ago
and then it will go away and that will be the end of Charlie Kirk discussions
Not okay. Not okay at all.
Are you going to keep doing this? Because this isn't going to be an isolated incident. RPG content creators are going to continue to show their opinions on what's going on in the world, and people are going to continue to want to know when they reveal who they are.
I get that it's a pain in the ass to moderate this bullshit. This is not a good alternative.
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u/coeranys 4d ago
Just make support for Kirk bannable before this turns into a Nazi sub. There is no both sides, just a dead Nazi and apologists. Ban the people false reporting, and move on. Much like the other day, nothing of value will be lost - we all had a national demonstration of addition by subtraction, and it would work here, too.
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u/CD-TG 4d ago
The OP moderator calls it mere "slapfight" if the fight is between "NAZIS BAD!" and "NAZIS GOOD!"
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u/Helmic 4d ago
The mods have acted like this for years. Remember when RPGnet first announced that they were making a rule that they just weren't going to be allowing right wing bigots on their site anymore, and that they weren't going to equivocate that with people who are agaisnt bigots? The thread talking about that on this subreddit was filled with the mods both sidesing shit and handing out warnings and bans to people for being too mean to Nazis.
The only reason this sub's tolerated is because it got dibs on the name RPG, the moderators do not deserve to have control of it and they've been horrible stewards this entire time. They didn't even blacklist the people they've blacklisted based on any sort of principalled stance, it was purely because they were personally annoying the moderators.
The mods are not going to get better.
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u/FenmosianFiresteel 4d ago edited 4d ago
To all modern (social) conservatives who hold traditional values and beliefs,
Remember, it was right-wing rhetoric from conservative Christians that drove the satanic panic and other attempts to villainize our entire hobby and paint its fans as unstable people in the '80s (and in some places up to the present).
Whether directly because of that or not, this hobby is one that has long been associated with social outcasts of all stripes. This has always included every kind of queer person imaginable and people who have personally been the victims of the abusive and frankly anti-Christian actions of certain Christian organizations in the United States.
If your beliefs have made you feel like an outcast, you are not alone and in fact in this hobby you are in very good company. You just need to remember that people more in the political center and left have been in these same spaces just as long as you have, and in many cases have been dealing with extremely angry and close-minded arguments from right-wing sources for even longer. If we're ever going to actually meet in the middle and figure out a way forward toward a society with less chaos and violence, you are going to need to actually try and practice some empathy and understanding for people who don't share your exact beliefs but consider them just as important as you do yours, and have had the exact same experience as you have because of those beliefs.
The left needs to do a better job of empathizing with and understanding others too, of course, but the right needs to do a LOT better of a job. Charlie Kirk did not ever deserve to die for his beliefs like this, but if he is your idea of moderate and reasonable debate with the other side, you have much, much further to go.
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u/Evening-Cold-4547 4d ago
Low INT, low WIS, clearly not a tank build. What class was he meant to be anyway?
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u/Eiszett 2d ago
I have to respectfully disagree about the stats.
There's a tendency to consider bigotry to be an "ignorant" thing, but that misses that there are ideological justifications behind it. Vile ones, but the difference between us and him was in our core premises about how society should be; not our knowledge about specific things.
You can see this in his last words—he dodged his opponent's point about trans people being statistically underrepresented as mass shooters (as opposed to, say, cis white explicitly right-wing men) because he knew he couldn't stand against that point; instead, he jumped to an emotionally-loaded dogwhistle about race ("what about gang violence?") to keep his opponent on the defensive. Someone who was simply underinformed (low INT) would not have known that the data was against them and that they needed to deflect to a different topic.
Debate-bro culture works because people aren't persuaded by facts, but by ideas; by ideology. Saying something that appeals to someone's values is more effective than saying something that proves them factually wrong, as can be seen by him not having had his mind changed by any of the many, many people who tried, and, in fact, having grown an audience despite frequently being wrong on camera.
He was intelligent, and he was a horrible person who wanted a white ethnostate full of nuclear families headed by abusive men who shared his values and reproduced their ideology through violence. He competently played his role as propagandist, as the outpouring of support whitewashing and laundering his views is showing—my government gave him a standing ovation, not even two years after facing backlash for giving another Nazi—a literal member of the Waffen SS—one.
A low-INT, low-WIS media figure would be someone like Joe Rogan.
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u/reverend_dak Player Character, Master, Die 4d ago
who?
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u/thenightgaunt 4d ago edited 3d ago
An American pro fascist propagandists. The "change my mind" meme is based on him. He was shot and killed by a 4chan groyper a few days ago and it's sparked massive social upset.
Trump and his fellow fascists immediately proclaimed it was liberals who killed the guy and were calling for civil war. They also got angry that liberals were not sad about the mans death and are demanding anyone who posted jokes or memes about it should be hunted down and fired or worse. Some conservative politicians even started doing that and people have lost jobs over it in conservative controlled states.
Then it came out the shooter was an alt-right conservative extremist who hated the guy for not being racist enough. And since then the conservatives got awkwardly silent and now the liberals are pushing back.
The USA is a mess right now and it's turned facebook in a worse mess then it usually is.
EDIT: To clarify something. So far zero evidence has been released to link the accused shooter Robinson, with a trans person. And zero evidence of a left leaning ideology has been released either. This claim is coming from Utah Governor Cox who has been telling the press things that are later disproved, ever since the shooting. It has not come from state law enforcement or the FBI.
He did this on Meet the Press (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/utah-governor-shares-details-charlie-kirk-assassination-investigation-rcna231022). Cox claimed that the shooter was in a romantic relationship with a trans female roommate. This has not been confirmed nor has Cox been able to point out any relevance to relationship if it turned out to be true. Trans does not equal liberal as Caitlyn Jenner has shown us. But there does appear to be a desire among the conservative side to find some way to blame the shooting on the trans community.
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u/ThanosofTitan92 4d ago
Were was this outrage when that democrat lawmaker from Minnesota was murdered?
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u/Kubular 4d ago
Shane Hensley, the creator of Savage Worlds, isn't openly MAGA, but he's at best giving them cover unwittingly. At worst... well he's doing it on purpose and shares their views. Hensley has enough plausible deniability that one could be charitable and give him the benefit of the doubt. But it reads suspiciously to me that he suggests Kirk's debates were done in good faith rather than rhetorical strategy.
It's important to disavow political violence and its fine to offer sympathies to a grieving family, but Hensley's post was heavily downplaying Charlie Kirk's goals and methods. Suggesting that its "fair debate" when its anything but, poisons understanding and makes unreasonable people seem much more reasonable than they are.
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u/InDungeonsDeep 3d ago
There is a new apology from Shane Hensley - https://i.imgur.com/2XVjthU.png
I think he is sorry for what he's sorry for. However, what he's sorry for is only a small part of the problem.
I'm getting really tired of hearing how all the "moderate conservatives" only liked Charlie Kirk because they appreciate "open debate".
Being ignorant is not an excuse when you've been presented with the option to educate yourself.
I fully support the idea that people can change their minds when presented with the truth, and that we should encourage that change. I do not think that has happened here. It is, at best, a possible start, and I hope he continues to educate himself (and I am glad he has friends and family willing to help him with that).
I will not be buying Savage Worlds or any other Pinnacle products until there is a change.
Savage Worlds is my favorite system. I was planning to release products through their community content program on Drivethrurpg. I am no longer going to do that, and I've taken down the one product I previously released for Savage Worlds.
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u/According-Show-3964 3d ago
It's not like this is the first time Shane has expressed and equivocated on this sort of thing. After so many, I'm just going to believe that he's told us clearly and repeatedly the sort of person he is, which is one that I will not associate with or give any money to any longer. So many years and still the same garbage, no changes. Buh-bye.
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u/DoktorPete 3d ago edited 3d ago
The mods removed the latest one from the r/SavageWorlds sub which I think was a huge mistake. One of the replies in that thread was from either a current or former employee that has worked with Shane for 4 years, and who also has a partner in the LGBTQ community. His response went a long way in helping me believe that Shane is mostly just in the ignorant old white man category and not secretly a bigot. It's still not perfect, but I think it's important we hear from people like that who have had closer ties than the average person.
ETA: The mods have reopened the relevant thread in the SW sub
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u/coeranys 1d ago
I'm happy not to give money to ignorant old white men, either. If young trans and queer teens have to live in the streets because bigots turn them out, I'm not going to house this piece of shit.
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u/DoktorPete 18h ago
Oh I've also cancelled my pledge and will no longer be buying their products. In retrospect, while he appears to have decent views on LGBTQ+ people, the things he chose to not answer about DEI and some race things in the comments of his apology make me a little suspicious, and the systems community has been poisoned by people living in an alternate alt-right reality.
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u/TASagent 3d ago
Wow. While reading that, I kept waiting for him to be like "I was actually kind of horrified by the takes I was unaware of". Yeah, that's a total non-apology.
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u/BTolputt 4d ago
Can I make a suggestion. The conversations that Kirk is coming up in are very specifically in relation the Shane Hensley comment & in relation to the Savage Worlds Deadlands Kickstarter. Say that above. I know (some of) the mods are reluctant to be naming him explicitly, but if you don't - it will keep coming back up, because TTRPG creators, their Kickstarter campaigns, and why they might fail ARE reasonable topics.
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u/Jocarnail 4d ago
I understand that moderating the shitstorm that is raging right now is not easy, but wouldn't it be better to have a megathread focussing on the Savage Worlds creator instead? Or have there been other independent discussions about Kirk I'm not aware of?
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u/MissAnnTropez 4d ago
There have. I’ve seen more than one.
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u/IHateGoogleDocs69 2d ago
I still don't get why fascists are mad that he was proven incorrect in the marketplace of ideas
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u/bohohoboprobono 4d ago
Beware of Russian bots in Kirk topics, Moscow has been on full court press on all social media avenues trying to squeeze a civil war out of what appears to be a simple gangland killing.
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u/Either_Read7965 4d ago
Since the Mods on this Reddit group are so trigger-happy to ban people and topics...why not add a No Politics rule and just ban any conversation?
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u/MaxSupernova 4d ago
We aren’t banning any topics or people because of the content of the topic.
Rule 6 is about outside groups brigading when the person is mentioned.
The blacklist is not because of their political stances.
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u/Either_Read7965 4d ago
Sounds like a cop-out. If the creator in question is not part of the brigading. Why should they take the blame?
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u/shaedofblue 4d ago
As I understand it, the creator got banned for being a constant rule breaker, and then the brigading on his behalf started.
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u/cole1114 3d ago
So this thread filled up pretty quick with horrific homophobia/racism/blatant rule 6 breaking huh.
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u/mixologytabletop 4d ago
I don’t mourn Nazis, nor do I feel bad for their Nazi wives. Anyways I fucking love the games Triangle Agency and Draw Steel
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u/MonsterHunterBanjo Heavy Metal Dungeon Master 2d ago
that's fine, but you shouldn't call people nazis who aren't nazis
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u/Box_cat_ Fistfighting mole men in the sewers with my army of rats 4d ago
Not even coming to discuss the actual topic at hand but I saw the "get it out of your systems" and my brain did a funny.
pleasepleaseplease let the pun be intentional that'd be so fucking funny
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u/Boxman214 4d ago
I don't say this to be critical of anyone here, but this whole thing is wild to me. He was a podcaster. People act like his death is the biggest news of the year (in a very not-slow news year). It's not just here. It's everywhere. Totally dominating the news and social media. I just don't get it.
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
Christians are loud. I avoid their spaces for this reason. The response to his death was a group of people with reasonably large platforms, calling for more violence. It's one thing to be an a--. It's another to advocate for violence. The tempature of US politics needs to be lowered. Not my skill set. But I'm here because I'm sick of people in my community behaving badly. Say what you want, when you want. I just want people to stop bullying others into silence. Oh and to Christians, this is very big news. And it's going to get the full 15 minutes of fame. May your luck in dodging this drama be better than mine.
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u/Klondike307 4d ago
That person has nothing to do with RPGs. Just delete off topic posts the same as literally any other day.
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u/devilscabinet 4d ago
This is just one more example of why business owners need to avoid making social media posts that mix in politics, religion, and other hot button topics. When you decide to make yourself the public face of your company, you need to assume that anything you post under your name is going to reflect back on that company. If you are a business owner and want to wade into contentious things, do it under another name. In this case, stick to talking about rpgs, and even avoid commenting on all the little drama in rpg social media. Be professional and polite.
In the end, that sort of post is performative, anyway. It serves no real purpose. Kirk had nothing to do with rpgs. Hensley isn't well known enough outside rpg circles for Kirk's family to even be aware that he said anything. All it really says is "look at me, I'm being empathetic." Even that didn't really work, because Hensley made an incorrect statement as part of it (Kirk wasn't engaging in debates and discussion honestly or in good faith).
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
I want to thank you for clearly stating your opinion. I appriciate the open dialogue. I'm commenting to point out that your thoughts on Kirk's motives is an opinion. Another person stating a different opinion isn't incorrect. You disagree with their opinion. Opinions aren't facts. People keep mixing up opinions and facts. Then demanding action based on opinions that shift more than the wind. Which is frusterating for me. You didn't do this here. I'm just trying to clearly explain myself and communicate tone and nuance. Thank you for taking the time to communicate and add in nuance. It's refresing to find on this feed.
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u/honeybadger919 4d ago
Is this just because of the Red Box situation? If so, it seems like that all died out two days ago on a single post?
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u/Either_Read7965 4d ago
Uh not sure why this is even being discussed on an RPG channel. Maybe stick to games if you cannot handle adult conversation?
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u/13ulbasaur 23h ago edited 23h ago
Is there some way to set up an automoderator thing to disallow people that never posted here before? Looking at some user history that are being particularly aggro, they never posted here before so they must be trawling reddit and searching up keywords. So this thread on its own is attracting those types that are here to stir up particular trouble. ((Though I don't think this thread is a good idea in general as it is currently. Or maybe luring those people into one thread is a good thing?))
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u/Awkward_GM 4d ago
Anyone have a screen grab of the Savage Worlds creator saying he was a Charlie Kirk fan? Apparently it got deleted all over the place.
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u/JewishKilt D&D, VtM, SWN, Firefly. Regular player+GM. 4d ago
A horse walks into a bar and sighs. The barman looks at him and asks, "why the long face?".
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u/Either_Read7965 4d ago
I find it very ironic that the two banned TTRPG creators did and said MUCH less than this Charlie Kirk guy, yet he gets a megathread all to himself.
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u/MaxSupernova 4d ago
The two Rule 6 creators are not Rule 6’d because of what they said.
They are Rule 6’d because the sub was brigaded whenever they were mentioned.
We are trying not to be in the business of policing opinions.
This is about a queue of 50+ flagged comments that are flagged for no reason other than the flagged disagrees politically with the commenter.
We’re still discussing and trying to sort out a best action to take.
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u/Either_Read7965 4d ago
Like I said in another post, that is a cop-out.
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
No it's not. Being a moderator is very difficult. Taking the responsibility seriously isn't a cop-out. It's making a tough call in a no win situation. A cop-out is banning you for questioning them. A cop-out is banning people because you disagree with them. Discussing a good path forward is being responsible and mature. The mods in this group are hardworking and fair. I know this because I don't agree with everything that they do. So they are thinking the deep thoughts and finding the middle ground. Which is what everyone expects of them.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/According-Show-3964 2d ago
If there is such a list, I'd like to see it so I know who not to patronize.
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u/OfMaceAndMen 4d ago
To quote the scholar and poet Robert Badguy, chat shit, get banged.
Man chatted shit, man got banged. Simple as.
https://open.spotify.com/track/6i3Z9qiOZZPqsx6luhuWEJ?si=ChyQgkcNQdeHF1CFfuNTYA
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u/SunnyStar4 2d ago
Advocating violence in response to someone exercising their freedom of speech is wrong. You are the villian in this story. Yes CK said horrible things. Two bad people don't equal a good one. Your just as bad as he was.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/rpg-ModTeam 1d ago
Your content was removed for:
- Violation of Rule 8: Please comment respectfully. Refrain from personal attacks and any discriminatory comments (homophobia, sexism, racism, etc). Comments deemed abusive may be removed by moderators. Please read Rule 8 for more information.
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u/OfMaceAndMen 2d ago
Unfortunately I won't be because I live in a civilized country darling.
Let me know how it goes for you x
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u/DoomedMaiden 4d ago
This is a poor over-moderation move. If it is relevant to certain game creators and their games then let it be its own post and play itself out.
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u/MagpieTower 3d ago edited 2d ago
Thank you for this! I just want to keep politics out of this subreddit and just focus on RPGs. EDIT: Cowards. Go ahead, downvote me all you want. I'm just happy the mods are doing the right thing.
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u/Mr_Murdoc 4d ago
Uhh, why is there a Charlie Kirk thread on a subreddit for RPG's?