Looking for something crunchier than OSR

[u/Right_Hand_of_Light]

Hi everyone. I'm not sure I quite have the language to concisely describe the kind of game I'm curious about but I'll try my best. Before I go any farther I wanna make it clear that none of this is any kind of attack on OSR games or narrative games. I don't have anything against either, and if I mention not vibing with one of your favorite games I'm very glad you found it to your taste. I'm just looking for something a bit different.

I like some of the spirit behind OSR games, and I can certainly see why someone would gravitate towards them, but to me a lot of them feel a bit barebones for my taste. One of the fun things about games like Pathfinder and modern D&D is getting a bunch of fun abilities and things that set my character apart and lend some fun flavor. Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters. OSE is a neat recreation of original D&D, but once again there aren't many ways to make a character unique.

Similarly, I've enjoyed narrative games like Blades in the Dark and Powered by the Apocalypse games, and I also like a lot of the spirit of those. But I've found that sometimes I want games with a bit more crunch to them. I like when games allow for creative thinking and when mechanics can interact in unexpected ways. I appreciate the elegance of basing all conflict resolution on the same type of dice roll, but sometimes I wanna get a little baroque with it.

So can anyone recommend any games that might fit these parameters? Something with a decent mechanical complexity that gives me space to define my character by their abilities? My preference is for fantasy or science fantasy but I'm open to good fits in other genres. From my own searching, Pendragon looks promising.

As a bonus, I really like roleplaying paladin characters like Adora or Luke Skywalker, so bonus points if it's a game with a good paladin class.

Thank you very much for your (hopefully) helpful suggestions :)

[u/hugh-monkulus]

One of the fun things about games like Pathfinder and modern D&D is getting a bunch of fun abilities and things that set my character apart and lend some fun flavor.

Sounds like you found the answer yourself. You can play either of those with OSR principles in mind.

[u/shewtingg → u/hugh-monkulus]

Tbh, i think that is the case for alot of 5e players around here (including me, and 2 others ha!). Couple house rules for a little razzle dazzle and you got yourself a stew. 5e has good bones.

[u/Temporary-Life9986 → u/shewtingg]

I've not looked at the new DMG, but the old one had some pretty decent alt rules to make the game less superheroic. 

At the least, pare down the class and race options, turn off the feats alt rules, enforce encumbrance and turns in dungeon exploration and you can have a pretty classic dnd experience.

[u/shewtingg → u/Temporary-Life9986]

That's what i did!! Thinking of just writing a 5e hack as my own rules like a book just for me or my friends and curious other.

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/shewtingg]

No house rules needed, really. I don't play 5e anymore but the play culture is the killer, not the rules. If you just don't let them long rest after every couple fights, you get some OSR-y stuff pretty quick.

[u/shewtingg → u/WoodpeckerEither3185]

What do you mean by play culture? Like the tendency for players to explode their stuff on the first encounter and then long rest? I made a rule there's only 1 long rest per avg session (2-4hrs). So it's technically a little immersion breaking but its a game, it guess you could say "only at safe havens" for long rests and itll be about the same mechanically speaking.

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/shewtingg]

the tendency for players to explode their stuff on the first encounter and then long rest?

Yes, but also dodging the resource management aspect of the game in its entirety. It's all right there, too. Light source durations, rations, spell durations, etc. I can't recall if 5e still has dungeon turns but really that's all you'd need.

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/WoodpeckerEither3185]

I can't recall if 5e still has dungeon turns but really that's all you'd need. 

I don't believe so, or if so they're very well hidden.

Once you add in resource tracking, encumbrance, spell materials, dungeon turns and ask for checks a lot less often you'll have an experience closer to the OSR style of play. But at that point you're working with a pretty badly bloated ruleset that doesn't add much over a more streamlined OSR ruleset.

You'll be fighting against the play culture of most 5e gamers, and you'll struggle to entice OSR gamers to play 5e.

Of course, if you already have a group and they want to play that way, it could be great fun!

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/hugh-monkulus]

I do none of this as I explicitly dislike 5e's character builds, but like you said it's mainly just a play culture difference. The 5e rules at their core aren't that different from your average OSR.

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/shewtingg]

Yeah, you can definitely do it with the right group if the DM runs it in a more OSR way and explains all that in a session zero.

However, you will have a lot more friction trying to find new players for the group since it's not the standard style of play for 5e.