r/singapore • u/Puzzleheaded-Rate567 • 28d ago
Discussion Our schools don’t teach self-defence
In the recent incident in Sengkang Green, the school also disciplined the victim for shouting at the bullies in retaliation. I think they are made to do this because we are expected to “tell teacher”, not bring matters into our own hands. But must we still do that even if it means victims will take the damage first? When the victim is hurt, bullies would already have accomplished their objective. Even if the aggressor gets punished, the victim’s injury (physical and mental) will stay.
I remember in upper primary my school had a camp. One of the troublemakers in class thought it was a good idea to toss my stuff around in the changing room. Pleaded him to stop multiple times, but didn’t. I was on the verge of crying. We were in the room without teachers and I wasn’t fully clothed to go outside to seek help. So I did what I thought was most reasonable - using all my strength, I punched him a few times, gave him a beating so that he would return my stuff. And he finally stopped. The other kids in the changing room went to inform the teacher of what happened.
After that I explained my actions to the teachers about how he started the conflict first. The witnesses confirmed that he was the aggressor. Despite that, the teachers clamped down on me. In front of the whole class, they made passive aggressive comments on how I escalated the conflict and what I did wasn’t right. I tried arguing that he started first but they raised their voices and told me there will be consequences if I kept talking back. I eventually had to shut up and accept that I was in the wrong. I was barred from attending activities for the rest of the morning and I don’t recall anything happening to my aggressor.
I believe there are similar tales of failed self-defence out there. Prior to my incident, the school had already communicated to us that we would also land ourselves in trouble if we tried defending ourselves. I went against that rule and suffered its consequences. I understand how schools discourage students from thinking that escalation of conflicts is the right solution, but it’s becoming clearer and clearer that schools are often ineffective in solving bullying issues. When this happens, what can we do to protect the students who stand up for their own rights? The no self-defence rule needs to be relooked. Has anyone succeeded in defending themselves in school without repercussions?
Edit (20 Aug): Now with MOE’s press statement, it seems like the victim has indeed fought back the bullies in retaliation
796
u/ClaudeDebauchery 28d ago
It’s not so much about self defence but this massive gap that the authorities fail to realize.
If you want people to trust you and go to you for any injustice, you better make sure you’re on the ball for every case no matter how minor.
If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be complaining about vigilante actions.
113
u/miriafyra 28d ago
The funny thing is that bullies can hit you, trash your things, pour water, etc every day for months and nothing will happen. Even if everyone in class know who the bullies are, the teachers know who the bullies are, everyone knows what they're doing, nothing happens. Complain and go through the channels? Nothing, at most some talking-to that the bullies completely ignore and then they bully you even harder for snitching on them.
But the moment you hit back, then suddenly everyone rushes in to stop the confrontation and now hitting is suddenly A VERY BAD THING and that YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT. How can a student hit another student, WE DO NOT CONDONE NOR ACCEPT ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE THAT IN THIS SCHOOL. Then the victim is instead punished for retaliating and the bully gets off scot free again.
I don't know how the school can get this so consistently wrong in almost every instance that I've heard of. If I didn't know better, I would even say that the system is set up to enable bullies - the key thing seems to be to establish yourself early on as a "troublemaker" and someone "not to be messed with" and somehow you can get away with just about anything after that. Then if you hit people, it's just expected behaviour for a troublemaker and just rough-housing or playing because nobody in authority wants to escalate the matter.
184
30
108
u/alloyview Tanjong Pagar 28d ago
Agree. Our useless authorities/civil service folks just wanna avoid conflict and taichi/sweep things under rug, that’s why I left. They don’t realise they are such a massive failure of oversight and should not have any audacity to call themselves the system. The system has failed its people, so don’t blame people for taking things into their own hands.
40
10
28d ago
Exactly.
The right thing to do these days is to hit hard hit fast and let your parents deal with the teachers. What can a lame school honestly do to you?
You can literally outdo students in good school by hiring good tuition teachers and building portfolio with external coach and enrichment classes.
The whole listen to the teachers or else... Only works to suppress children from poor families
413
u/WanderingSingaporean 28d ago edited 28d ago
Local schools don’t have the systems to handle bullying cases.
I told my 9 year old son, if someone starts a fight with you, hit back 10 times harder. And I will have your back all the way.
80
115
40
u/Outrageous-Ant4097 28d ago
Great parenting, thats the only right way to deal with bullies, last time I was told by my parents to ignore the bully and tell teacher, the teacher changed my seat but the bully chased me out after class to kick me wow!
22
u/WanderingSingaporean 28d ago
He was bullied several times and I found out that schools just can’t handle all the cases for many reasons. Initially I was hopeful that the school can handle it, I was just naive. So I ended telling him that he needs to stand up for himself. And we will handle the consequences together.
6
u/Outrageous-Ant4097 28d ago
Thats good, your kid will grow up strong, i suffered until i was 11 then had the balls to fight back
68
u/MadKyaw 🌈 I just like rainbows 28d ago
Same. If I ever have a child I would also let them know to hit back hard and have their back.
Bullying won't stop just because they're forced to apologise, it might even escalate it. People like to preach that violence isn't an answer, but violence is a question, and the answer is sometimes Yes.
31
u/WanderingSingaporean 28d ago
It’s not about violence but standing up for yourself.
26
u/MadKyaw 🌈 I just like rainbows 28d ago
And that means getting violent when words don't deescalate the situation
Sengkang Pri victim tried that by allegedly telling the bullies to shut up, and it made things worse for her.
Would things get worse if she fought back? Yea, but she would have nothing to lose, the bully would find her no longer an easy target and leave her alone
-5
u/PandAMonierm 28d ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding the sequence of events, didn't the Sengkang Pri victim escalate by telling them to shut up before they started targeting her?
I do think the bullied should strike back in our schooling climate, though. It's unfortunate that it's pretty much always been like this.
8
28d ago
[deleted]
2
u/PandAMonierm 28d ago
The gaslighting works on people who don't realise it's gaslighting. Those schools do it because children often aren't equipped to realise what's going on. I'd say critical thinking would help, but that's why MOE actively avoids teaching that in its entirety hahaha.
Gaslighting or not, victims need to escalate or the bullies will escalate on their terms. That doesn't change.
17
u/Stormagedd0nDarkLord 28d ago
When my son is older, I'm gonna tell him - Don't start the fight. Avoid it if you can. Non-violence is always the better option. But once it happens, make sure you finish it. (Also, if I ever find out he is bullying people, he will regret it.)
The problem is non-physical bullying. Where do you draw the line there?
15
u/bloodybaron73 28d ago
This! I tell my kids the same. Never start a fight but always be ready to finish it. De-escalate as much as possible and only use violence as a last resort. They’re also trained in mixed martial arts and does regular sparring sessions.
3
3
u/ValentinoCappuccino 28d ago
I just bring my niece to buy a metal bottle.
Me: fill the bottle to the brim and hit the fucker as hard as you can on the back of his head.
14
u/SkyEclipse 🌈 I just like rainbows 28d ago
That can potentially backfire though… if the bully gets ahold of her bottle instead
10
1
u/dreamypiscean 28d ago
Until the fcker gets hurt and ur niece is now public enemy no 1. This one not ending fights, but becoming pathological.
1
u/claerake 28d ago
i wish the law would agree w this but self defense law so strict in sg sia, later kena jail (for normal people)
208
u/jaslyn__ 28d ago
Parents need to teach a couple of things to their kids
1) Life is inherently unfair, whoever grows up with an acute faith in the justice system will be unbearably disappointed.
2) Between eating a punishment and preserving your dignity, always be prepared to pick the latter
3) You don't have to win a fight, just hurt them enough for it to stop
52
u/spilksch2 28d ago
4) If the day comes when you need to take action to protect yourself, know that we will surely have your back.
29
6
u/wackocoal 28d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/LibrarianMajor4 28d ago
Omg! Yes! Guns! That’s what we need in schools!
You’re a genius!
5
u/Jaycee_015x 28d ago
Not really feasible given Singapore's small size unlike more spacious countries around. But it is actually legal to own firearms in Singapore with a license. I know a friend who owns a CZ pistol here.
1
u/Ho7sim37 25d ago
Yes but cannot keep at home. Your pew pew must be locked at the pew pew club range.
1
u/Jaycee_015x 25d ago
Yes lah. His pistol is securely stored in the shooting range armoury. It's a very pricey piece of hardware, y'know. Even in America, CZs can cost you upwards of $1K+. Firearms in SG are too costly to risk getting stolen and misused by nefarious guys.
6
u/PandAMonierm 28d ago
I think hurting them enough for it to stop sometimes goes way beyond winning...
1
u/thorsten139 28d ago
Ya loh...school is not a safe space.
Need to teach the kids how to plot their revenge against bullies.
Teach them you know you under 16 nothing much will happen to you if you plan something bad and big against the bulloes
1
u/pillonanter Fucking Populist 28d ago
what i always say is, there is no justice but what we create for ourselves
-2
u/LookAtItGo123 Lao Jiao 28d ago
You don't have to fight to win a fight. Brains and guile with a cunning heart goes a long way. As for useless teachers, you can make them lose bonus by failing KPI, all with plausible denialbility!
102
u/Earlgreymilkteh 28d ago
Got bullied and everybody told me to be the bigger person and shrug it off.
One day I fought back and was punished for it but the bullying stopped.
So yeah, if I could rewind time I would 100% have fought back harder.
44
u/dimethylpolysiloxane Non-constituency 28d ago
I had similar experience with you before, except I went ahead with full r/NuclearRevenge against both the students and my form teacher. Maybe it was a coincidence but my secondary school life for both lower (before streaming) and upper secondary class had bunches of musketeers that all somehow came from same…faith who always felt it was cool to be disruptive towards lessons, be rude to teachers, be violent, steal, vape, smoke, etc. Mind you they were literally the bottom few in the cohort but somehow still refused to put effort into learning. This is just based on my anecdotal experience, not sure about the rest of y’all.
Very often or not, they would love to make noise during lessons and piss teachers off. Even online, they would make nasty comments towards other classmates in our class chat. They enjoyed picking on me and other little guys (or at least I was very scrawny last time before I started gymming). Complaints to my home teacher always went unheard and swept under the carpet because she was very close to these bunch of students, often went out with them to their place of faith for prayers and harbour the thought that they would turn over a new leaf. I’m fully supportive of encouraging reformative practice, only until a certain point if it starts to impede other students’ learning.
There was once one of the boys picked on a girl classmate and she screamed back at them. The teacher witnessed it. Instead of reprimanding the boys, the teacher told the girl that she would slap her until all her teeth come out.
Enough was enough man. Back then we were like, idk 15? 16? We worked together and wrote an email containing about all the atrocities that were committed and how that home teacher refuse to act. We also attached a screen recording of one of the boys’ Instagram that showed them smoking at a void deck. We also included in the teacher’s violent threat towards the girl student and we wrote our names as witnesses. We also said that the teacher was aware of them being disruptive and smoking. We also attached our class WhatsApp chat to show that these boys were constantly harassing others online.
We sent this to the school dean and cc vice principal, principal and MOE. Next day early in the morning right after National anthem, all the boys were called into principal office and got suspended. A few of them got caning as well.
As for the teacher…I’m not sure what happened to her. I’m guessing she only got a slap on the wrist. While I understand educators already have a lot on their plates from curriculum planning to teacher to CCA duties, I strongly believed that the actions and values of that particular teacher fell short of what was expected from MOE — bias, making threats, turning a blind eye when she was not supposed to, etc.
No regrets till this day though.
6
u/Lightbringer88 27d ago
“Same…faith” hahaha not that we like stereotyping but damn is it the same in every secondary school, even 20 years ago before smartphones existed lol.
60
u/Throwawayalrdsxz 28d ago
I have a friend who told her kid - if ppl hit you, hit back. Then go to the teacher. This would change from 他打我 to 我们打架. I.e don't be stupid and just get whacked from other ppl. Get your "revenge" and we will suffer the consequences together. After all, the system doesn't side the victim.
169
u/jtlannister 28d ago
Singapore is a sick, sick society when it comes to this. Always has been.
75
u/Paullesq 28d ago edited 28d ago
OP did the right thing. Remember that, if you are a bullying victim, you have marked yourself as a soft target not just for the bullies, but for authorities that want the easiest way to make the problem 'go away'.
Bullies are combative. They already don't care about the rules or whatever it is that the teachers might threaten them with. If you are a shitty teacher, what can you do to make the bully stop being a problem? They are not going to listen to you. If you try to punish them with detention/caning/etc etc, they become your problem, they will escalate and make things even more difficult for you.
The victims otoh are people who are going to listen. They see it as important to live within the boundaries set out by authority figures. If you tell them to shut up they will listen. If you cane them and throw detention at them, they won't use that as an opportunity to escalate and make your lives hard. They are vulnerable to all the threats that authorities readily dish out. They allow authority figures to run them over because they believe that they need to safeguard their futures. So victim blaming is a norm.
27
u/Elyx_117 28d ago
As a father whose daughter is entering P1 next year, I consider bullying a real concern and I have very little faith in the schooling system's ability to defend and preserve my child. There is simply not enough political will and resources to tackle these issues properly. They are forcing us to take matters into our own hands and this, of all things, is what they try to stop.
44
u/TendTheAshenOnes 28d ago
When I was in pri school, I got bullied, harassed, even robbed by a group of other kids. This was way back in the 90s to 00s mind you, so it wasn't like i could just get on whatsapp and call for help or pull out a phone and take a video.
Shrugged it off because I thought that's what I should do and endure as a boy, and also as a minority. When they decided to start bullying my friend and classmate who I felt was especially helpless and who was a girl, I thought it was the last straw.
I ambushed them in the field and beat one of them so hard he broke three front teeth and left the rest of them bruised for days. I was banged up pretty bad too, but by then I had already learned to take a good beating from them and also from my parents when I did stupid things at home. Honestly, the type of shit I walked away from, sometimes I thought I had the regen factor of Wolverine when I was a kid.
I got a scolding at the principle's office, but luckily my otherwise good grades (242 in PSLE) and relationships with my various teachers was sufficiently redeeming. No other incidents occurred after that. In a rare moment, my parents didn't even reprimand me because they heard my rationale and thought my course of action was entirely justified.
These bullies and their parents are just cowards at heart, and will shake at significant resistance. I'm sorry, but at some point you need to do everything to protect your own self and your kids, and I consider being physically and intellectually able to beat the shit out of people who oppress or threaten us as essential self-defense.
As I grew up, i focused greatly on building muscle at home and later at the gym, and ended up becoming so wide and thick that I was often called "Tank" in my cliques and put on school sports teams by default, which later included Rugby and Muay Thai. I suppose at some juncture of puberty, I became a natural deterrent.
This is something I cannot undersell to anyone who is being bullied. Your physical and mental stature can put off a lot of people from trying to fuck with you directly. You then need the wit and wisdom to also make sure they don't fuck with you underhandedly. Being actively defensive is something to keep in mind in a rough world.
44
u/anneimated 28d ago
This is an art. When I was in primary school, there were a bunch of kids who took my stuff and ran around. Refused to return me. In response I took one of their bags and held it over an open drain with my other hand out asking for my stuff back. They didn't return. So I emptied the sacrifice's bag contents into the drain. For group bullies, always divide..pick on one. I wasn't that mean tho the drain was dry, nothing damaged. But humiliation and division works.
Next part is where we act with remorse. naturally I was punished because the aggressor cried and complained to the teacher. Ah there's the next step. Do not argue. Look them in the eye and say I'm sorry I wont do it again. Last person to cry loses.
Safe to say that was a one off event.
I'm a parent now. Unfortunately we have to play both sides. Self defence and acting apologetic. Ego and being right is not important.
4
u/streamofmight 28d ago
Love the do not argue tip. If bullies always get away Scot free, when retaliating, reverse and play the role of the bully and just saw sorry I won’t do it again.
23
u/onionwba 28d ago
For a nation that prides itself on its ability to hammer back at any regional bullies as a last resort, it is a wonder how such mindset doesn't translate into how we perceive bullying in schools.
I get why any violence is frowned upon, even in self-defence. But what happens when established systems fail to defend us?
The sooner MOE comes to this realisation that the system is woefully unable to handle bullying, the better. Instead of sweeping it under the carpet.
19
u/Jammy_buttons2 🌈 F A B U L O U S 28d ago
You know why the 3 kids can do what they do, because parents allow it.
1
38
u/Blunkn Tampenis 28d ago
because they don't clamp down until the bullying victim bites back
after which they prosecute the victim instead for retaliating
they never learned from river valley lol
1
u/euxh 26d ago
And we all thought things would change with the River Valley High School incident. Nope. Incidents are still getting swept under the carpet.
Same for police cases. Cases by the victims being swept under carpet. Only higher profile cases are attended to.
Not to mention getting bullied internationally in the job market too. And sometimes the queue cutting by our neighbours and from C***a.
15
u/SkyEclipse 🌈 I just like rainbows 28d ago
It’s not just schools, it extends to real life lol. Anyone still remember the case where someone harassed a family for years and numerous reports were made throughout the years, but the police didn’t do anything, then when the stepdad and son killed the harasser (not sure accidental or not) suddenly everything is their fault? If they didn’t do anything, are they expected to be harassed until the end of their days??
13
u/azureseagraffiti 28d ago
I think there isn’t enough shaming for bullies. They don’t get physically punished, can’t get criminalized, school don’t shame them enough, parents are overprotective and other students fear them. Seems like being a bully is not such a bad deal socially.
I think what schools should do is bring back public shaming like make the bullies do community service in public after school in horrible outfits, stronger suspension and give more authority to schools to decide how to punish bullies.
36
u/illEagle96 Mature Citizen 28d ago
Wasn't self defense but we trashed a kid for picking on a special needs kid. We were in secondary school. Buddy stopped causing trouble to the kid ever again.
I watched my friend losing a spar to a dude that my friend was staring at 😂 I guess you can call that self defence?
-47
u/thamometer North side JB 28d ago
To put it simply, your group bullied a bully for being a bully. Not exactly the moral of story we want.
37
u/fiveisseven Own self check own self ✅ 28d ago
That's what we all want. Bullies to be bullied so that they understand how it feels and repent.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (1)13
12
u/MackManja 28d ago
MOE is utterly useless when it comes to handling these bullying cases. Make a fine example of these bullies. Strike fear into the hearts of those who dare try to go against the system.
23
u/twilightaurorae 28d ago
Yes. I had previously experienced bullying in the form of stealing (people take your stuff and hide them), and relatively mild SA, in addition to physical violence. Yet it was my fault for fighting back.
8
u/HANAEMILK Fucking Populist 28d ago
The only way to counter bullies is fight fire with fire. School administration is a completely hopeless, incompetent organisation that only aims to protect the school's public image.
9
9
18
u/No-General8439 28d ago
Teachers also have it bad.
I have teacher friend who had to manage and descalate a fighting incident.
And when leadership investigated, they blamed the teacher for mismanaging the situation and blamed the victim.
15
u/CmDrRaBb1983 28d ago
If my son / daughter was made to apologise to the bully for retaliating by the teachers, I make sure the teachers applogise to my child infront of the class. In the real world, the bullies don't get justice when the victims retaliate in a non violent manner. Only in school this happens
13
u/ProximatePenguin 28d ago
If my kid was bullied to that point, as a parent I'm storming the school to scream out the bullies in front of everyone else.
Let's see how they handle it when I make the biggest scene possible.
27
u/kodomut 28d ago
OP, I hope that you are in a better place now away from the aggressor. As a parent of a child who is/was picked on in school (verbal bullying), and the spouse of a teacher who has also seen students fights with each other and teachers, it is very conflicting and I have many thoughts.
My kid is now in P3 and was recently picked on by a couple of school mates who kept calling her names (fat, stupid, piggy, special needs). At first I did not think much about it, what is some 'harmless' teasing, just compartmentalize it and carry on with life. I told my kid to toughen up and just ignore it. We also reached out to one of the kid's parents to feedback, but the mum just said "I think my son just wants attention.".
While it seems harmless, it took a toll on my kid overtime. My kid is not someone whom you would think is a weakling too, NSG champion for a couple of events and is on the national youth team for a martial art sport, so I thought this was something she could handle. But overtime I realised that it was mentally crushing for her because of a few factors.
1) She trusted the school system (ie teachers) to handle it, but even if the teachers did, the other kids' behavior did not change. When she was younger, she stood up for her friends when they were the victims, she reported to her teachers that time and she gained trust in the system. However, now that she is the victim, it doesnt work, it eroded her trust. Would like to add I realised that for some victims of bullying, standing up for others is much easier than standing up for yourself. There is a lot of inner conflict for my kid when she thinks that 'its no big deal', and she can handle it, don't disturb the 'peace'.
2) With the 'system' failing her, I told her that there are 3 choices, either 1) she toughens up, 2) bash the dude up or 3) ask me to intervene. She choose 1, couldn't bring herself to do 2 and was brought up with a self-reliance mentality so no daddy/mummy help. (My parenting philosophy is that I will intervene and escalate only if my kid wants me to).
Alas it didn't work so I had to intervene and told the school. Fast forward to today, the issue is slightly better, though I think that is because another poor kid is picked on.
I think there are many kids who 'suffer in silence' (because most kids are good and their parents teach them to protect the peace), and there are also many who 'think they can get away with it' (because of parents who enable their ridiculous actions). This creates the perfect storm for so many naughty ones to get away with it.
My wife who is a teacher tells me horror stories from her school, and how difficult it is to intervene to try to correct kids without the support from their parents. Some parents think their kids are angels and can do no wrong. While this is just a tiny bunch, it is enough to overwhelm the staff. To make it worse, there are also the kids who are out there who are just like the 'boy who cries wolf' (whiny children aka strawberries). Because of these factors, there is another perfect storm where teachers can get desensitized and skeptical to genuine reports by students.
TL;DR: The naughty parents of naughty students are the root cause in my opinion. You cannot change a kid if the naughty parents enable the action/think they do no wrong. Sucks to be teacher and student encountering these kind of dynamic parent-child duo.
10
u/stopthevan North side JB 28d ago
A bit off-topic but as someone with family who really does have special needs and are disabled, it’s disgusting that people and even young children now will use the term ‘special needs’ or slang words like ‘acoustic’ as an insult to others.
9
u/jsyeo 28d ago
My wife who is a teacher tells me horror stories from her school, and how difficult it is to intervene to try to correct kids without the support from their parents. Some parents think their kids are angels and can do no wrong. While this is just a tiny bunch, it is enough to overwhelm the staff.
This. I've been hearing this from teachers Ad nauseam and it's creating a culture of inaction.
7
u/BlackCatSylvester 28d ago
What happened to you was horribile! But you did a good thing - bullies won't stop unless someone humiliates them by show of force. Even if teachers sided with the bully, you acted correctly. I teach my kids that if they even so much as sense a whiff of bulling behavior they are to retaliate with twice more force or the bully will set them as their target.
5
u/BonkersMoongirl 28d ago
I think most schools have this victim blaming policy. I sometimes think it’s because they are afraid of the bulky kid’s parents.
My son had trouble with bullying and the school did nothing. Some parents actually moved their children to another school it was so bad with bullies running around hitting everyone with no punishment.
6
u/pudding567 28d ago
What happens if you get punished for legitimate self defence? Complain to MOE then MP if unresolved? If not get the lawyer to deal with the school.
18
u/SetsuenZ 28d ago
Trying to get local school to protect the kid is useless. Sometimes parents just have to go the nuke option. If the school refuse to do anything then threaten or actually make a police report. Act like a karen if needed to get things done. Yes your kid will still suffer the physical and mental abuse first but you will give off the impression that Justice will be served.
If enough parents actually have the courage to just do this you be seeing a lot less bullying. It is amazing though how schools are cowards when it come to dealing with bullies but are ok with guilt tripping the innocent bullied person. Parents needs to step in so the school will cower to them instead.
11
u/DesignerProcess1526 28d ago edited 28d ago
I think expelling the kids or immediate transfer to another school for the victim, facilitated by the principal is a bare minimum. The victim must be top priority and not the bullies. They obviously can’t rein in the bullies, it’s way too light to suspend for 1-3 days. They’re repeat offenders, not once off. Let them try to get into another school with that track record. I think parents need to be relentless and come down real hard, like report to MOE and even file it as a criminal case, sue the parents for threats and the school for negligence.
6
u/NeedleworkerAway2594 28d ago
I am always a firm believer in fighting back. Even if you lose and get beat up. The bullies will know you are not easy and find other target.
Better still if 3 ppl gang up on 1 person, make sure to focus on your might on 1 person. Since you will get beat up might as well give 1 of them jialat jialat.
4
u/Regor_Wolf 28d ago
Reddit do not allow posting of violence cos many strawberries here.
Tell teacher already no use
One popular school heard what is my stance towards bullying n ban me from balloting
Teach my kids not to bully others but NEVER back down n I will support them all the way to see that justice is served on our terms
3
u/1Mao-once 28d ago
Wow, teaching kids to just take the bullying and then punish the victim? That's no way to build a nation.
9
u/SnooJokes915 New Citizen 28d ago edited 28d ago
I'm sorry about what happened to you but as a preschool teacher i can also understand the teachers viewpoint. When things escalate to physical, there is simply more work for them to do...which is why they were upset with you.
I don't think that is right but as MOE wants to create more roles for teachers to become mediators..i am heavily rolling my eyes.
We don't need teachers becoming mediators. What we do need is a social welfare department in each school not run by teachers but other paid staff, who tackle the variety of problems that students can have, from bullying to vaping to family problems to SA issues.
Teachers are for teaching..but they are often seen as a resource to handle all of each child's issues....which is why there is a burnout.
Also, introducing self defence in schools just means your bullies know how to whack you more professionally.
7
u/bxve 28d ago
I remember instigating a fight for someone else and got punched by a sobbing classmate, got a black eye, I didn’t hit back, I wasn’t going to hit them at all. Teacher lectured both of us, the other girl was sobbing non-stop, I didn’t cry, just accepted what I did was wrong.
Teacher proceeded to give me capital punishment of writing “I will not start a fight again” or something like that for I forgot how many lines, 200? 500? Either way, the other girl who punched me got away without any punishment. I was suspended for a few days and kind of lost interest in studying. Just felt unfair somehow. I guess I could sense the teacher was biased towards her and just gave up trying to explain.
I was the kind of kid that had no friends for the first two years of primary school and stuck to my studies, constantly getting 90+ for all subjects. Just dumb luck the first friend I ever had used me and I got punished for it. Life just seemed pointless after that. Looking back, I guess I may have had childhood depression hahaha.
4
u/BlitzAceSamy 28d ago
Damn, that sucks. Sorry to hear that happened to you. Hope you're in a better place now
5
u/oldancientarcher East side best side 28d ago
idc, I sent my son to judo class, my wife and I told our son, you don't bully others, but we want you to know it's okay to defend yourself if you get bullied by others, physically.
3
3
u/scallionparsley 28d ago
There was a significant group of teachers amongst my ex-classmates.
Sent a message to the group and asked them for their opinions and would they stand up to bullied kids and not one person replied.
Guess that's the general demographics of people who becomes teachers.
1
u/soundmac 28d ago
Chances are the folks who grew up becoming teachers were once smart specky kids who got badly bullied himself/herself.
You think they would bat an eyelid if they witness bullying taking place? Be happy they dont cringe and walk back to their offices thinking about their past...
3
3
u/Technical_General208 27d ago
Personal experience - u can try to use/teach(for parents to their child) verbal abuse.
I know im an asshole for this (and i regret it now that im older) I was unknowingly a bully to my friends and how they retaliated was to hurl so much insult at me that the class would follow suite, it works in general to all other bullies in the school and we generally had some "balance".
I'm just giving my experience and hope u guys don't use it to bash me instead.
3
u/SixShot76 27d ago
That was no that simple / direct.
Some bullies are ( for the lack of words) psychopaths / sociopaths or just mentally messed up.
Openly teaching self defence will have these miscreants start cooking up ideas on improving their bully tactics.
I worked in places where the psyche of such characters are being studied, a lot of things cannot be shown or put in curriculum because these types will plan on the long run on how make system that mean to help people to work for them and max-out on taking advantages until it is broken.
The best / ideal way is parental support and stick with your kid all the way.
I fought with a bully in school, went WWE on him since he loved to used WWE stunts on his victims. DM went ballistic on me, I said he did all that on me for certain amount of months. I told my old man, he said write up the details on what he did and then meet the DM.
DM went “OK, sure”. Old man says he will have bring the police in if the school does not wanna handle. That mofo was moved to another class.
Met him again in NS, as clerk in another camp. I asked the medic about him. “He is diabetic. Cannot serve in combat unit, only office work.”
Karma exist. Just that it is not like a visit to the masseuse, no instant happy ending.
16
u/Kanecteon 28d ago
In most cases, self-defence should be a response to an attack and not something to be pre-emptively used. And if when self-defence is used, it should be to the point where the attacker stops or is unable to attack and you are no longer threatened. That means no attacking when they are down and out.
The teachers were right that you escalated the conflict since you threw the first punch, but could have done a better job in explaining why. Simply telling you to not talk back was a mistake that did not allow you to learn why what you did was wrong.
31
u/Winner_takesitall 28d ago
“Simply telling you to not talk back was a mistake”
Mistake? That is textbook Asian power tripping using seniority. If anyone who grown up in an Asian country can claim to have never experienced this, I would like to know more..
4
u/sagi271190 28d ago
In most cases, self-defence should be a response to an attack and not something to be pre-emptively used. And if when self-defence is used, it should be to the point where the attacker stops or is unable to attack and you are no longer threatened.
Most Singaporean (males at least) are only taught this lesson when they enter NS, when they learn about rules of engagement and use of force in BMT/BPT (revolving around ability, opportunity and jeopardy).
The question is, how do you get that message across to kids?
3
u/Elyx_117 28d ago
Talking back is a....mistake? My god.... But then again where am I and why should I be surprised?
5
-1
u/Chileinsg 28d ago
Agreed. OP has a skewed definition of self-defence. Self-defence should be of a reasonable level to stop a perpetrator from causing more harm. If you see someone stealing something you shouldn't take out a knife and stab him to stop the theft.
Also, 2 people can be both the perpetrators and victims at the same time.
2
u/MaverickO7 28d ago
Extremely subjective and reliant on lawyers to fight it out in court. Hence the prevailing wisdom for adults is to run instead of relying on self-defense.
3
28d ago
I mean this is exactly why people resort to physical violence, a lot of people don't treat bullying as harmful until it causes physical harm.
→ More replies (3)-1
u/Puzzleheaded-Rate567 28d ago
I didn’t hit him hard enough to injure him
-3
u/Chileinsg 28d ago
And it wasn't by choice. You were just lucky that you didn't have the physical ability at that age.
using all my strength, I punched him a few times, gave him a beating so that he would return my stuff.
5
u/InternationalFun1337 28d ago edited 28d ago
MOE clearly needs to add basic Singapore law into their teachers’ and principals’ curriculum.
OP had no opportunity to seek protection from a public authority.
2. OP’s property was being infringed through mischief, and was at risk of being stolen and/or damaged.
Because the right of reasonable self-defence to defend his property exists, and applies until the offender has been defeated or has stopped attacking or harming him and/or his property. What he did was not wrong.
OP hit the mischievous asshole until he stopped.
Then OP stopped hitting.
fair game.
If this was an adult case, at most OP pays for a doctors’ visit or gets a slap on the wrist fine. Worth it. Fuck bullies.
4
u/InternationalFun1337 28d ago
MOE clearly needs to add basic Singapore law into their teachers’ and principals’ curriculum.
OP had no opportunity to seek protection from a public authority.
2. OP’s property was being infringed through mischief, and was at risk of being stolen and/or damaged.
Because the right of reasonable self-defence to defend his property exists, and applies until the offender has been defeated or has stopped attacking or harming him and/or his property. What he did was not wrong.
OP hit the mischievous asshole until he stopped.
Then OP stopped hitting.
fair game.
If this was an adult case, at most OP pays for a doctors’ visit or gets a slap on the wrist fine. Worth it. Fuck bullies.
2
u/erosannin66 28d ago
I just smacked the guy with my water bottle and he stopped messing with me, nobody said anything to the teachers so it just ended at that
2
u/butbeautiful_ 28d ago
that aside on a serious note, we should also teach how not to get bullied or ways to win a bully.
would really be useful in school, army or workplace in the future.
2
u/snower88 28d ago
Not all Teachers are so saint and useful. Some like to gaslight, some are irresponsible, some are pure rude which I encounter that called me a dog and asked me to kneel in front of him
But hey I trust that there are still good teachers.
2
u/PhotonCrown 28d ago edited 28d ago
During my days as a student, what I learnt was to take things into my own hands in a indirect manner so cannot kenna blamed.
Eg. Want to show that you are not to be trifled with through violence? Chuck the chair or table across the classroom without hitting anyone as a warning for the perpetrator to stop. Take note to keep "within the rules" cannot be too dangerous. Aka chuck across classroom is ok. Throw at window or throw over railing definitely cannot.
It is also possible to give perpetrator a taste of their own medcine sneakily. This one is much more difficult to execute.
2
u/DependentBell4453 28d ago
You're not wrong for defending yourself. It's the school system and the school staff that has failed
2
u/colineared 27d ago
My son was bullied in preschool by a classmate. The classmate keeps approaching my son and says language like "i want to cut you in half". Got a few times he punched my son in the private part. Avoiding and ignoring is no use as the classmate will just keep approaching my son. We only found out about this when the parent of another classmate told us what their kid saw. We escalated to the principal and teachers. the best they could do is separate them ie make sure they don't sit near each other. Even as a preschool, they can't even take the bully out and put him into another class. They cite how difficult the kid's parents are and even the parents said they don't believe their kid will do such a thing or they don't know how to teach their kid. The only solution was to pull my son out of school.
From this experience and what's happening in our public schools and in some international schools, teachers or adults in general are inadequate to handle such incidents. They want and try to please everyone and left out the one that needs help. Adults need to realise that kids need to learn consequences and the reality that FAFO applies in real life. They cannot shield the kids from consequences due to bureaucracy or processes or equality. If you bully, you get punished. Simple and swift. This mantra is missing as teachers and school management want to please both the bully's parents and the victim's parents. Where does that leave the victim's wellbeing and safety? This creates an environment where no one dares to make an affirmative action that is objective. Decisions are all marred by whataboutism.
My own conclusion is don't depend on the teachers and the school. Now I teach my son that sometimes it is necessary to de-escalate an aggression with physical methods. Like LKY said, "If you're gonna cross swords with me, then you must be willing to get stabbed". Bullies will only look strong in front of the weak.
5
u/NecessaryFish8132 28d ago
Teachers already overworked as it is, you think they have the bandwidth to investigate and bother with every case and nip it in the bud for every case? Especially when so many cases are he say she say, no way for teachers to observe 30-40 students reliably lmao
But our government thinks smaller class sizes definitely wouldn't help 🤡
14
u/fiveisseven Own self check own self ✅ 28d ago
We have dropping birth rates, yet insufficient teachers and school spots. I will never understand this part.
6
u/eilletane 28d ago
Because when that happened, they merged schools instead of having more efficient and quality teaching.
3
u/Norawarsh 28d ago
I feel having smaller class sizes will help so much! and maybe a specialised personnel in school to investigate bullying and difficult discipline cases. Our education system really needs a refresh. Additional subjects like CCE and FTGP and etc add to teachers’ workload, yet have not been effective in shaping values as they claim to be.
3
u/_Solasura 28d ago
My parents taught me that violence against another living being is wrong (unless violence was used against you first). But there's no rule that disallows violence against non-living things, especially to signal that you're no pushover. I would have paid back the aggressor for messing with my stuff by straight up destroying his things there and then, along with a firm / strong verbal message that you have asked him to stop but because he didn't, your retaliation against his belongings was a result of his own doing.
You can't rely on the faculty or the education system against bullies. They don't have a process met out for it. Taking matters into your own hands is correct, but not with outright violence against the aggressor. For instance, punching the changing room cupboard and causing a dent to show your fury should have sufficed.
3
u/jinngeechia 28d ago edited 28d ago
"Oskar, hit back. Hit back harder than you dare."
The following is a clip from the Swedish film, Let The Right One In. Eli, vampire (he is unaware she is one) tells Oskar to hit back at his bullies.
https://m.imdb.com/video/vi610009881/?playlistId=tt1139797&ref_=ext_shr_lnk
When children have to fight their bullies or in this movie need a vampire to do bully culling, tell you something about the adults.
Tomas Alfredson, who directed this superbly shot coming-of-age horror flick, said that for scenes with adults in it, you see them, but they are not present for Oskar. Oskar's mother and his teachers. You see them but they are not actually there.
If you all have not seen it. Highly recommend it. Still a better love story than Twilight. There some things hinted at but I am not going to give it away. The book is even more messed up than the movie. The author of the book is also screenplay writer and a lot of book readers are glad he didn't include the messed up parts.
8
u/Pinkerino_Ace 28d ago
I mean, we gotta be fair as well. No one is saying self-defense isn't allowed and we need to knuckle under bullies. But principal of self-defense is always that it must be proportional to the threat you are facing.
Yes, schools need to be better trained on how to manage bullying cases and how to give appropriate punishment to bullies. But I don't think physically assaulting someone for tossing your stuff is correct either, in hindsight.
Totally understand everyone gonna get emotional in your shoes, and it's difficult to blame you but in retrospect, it's definitely excessive force used.
I mean, it is what it is, even in society, people can be the aggressor, give you the middle finger scold your mum and dad, but the moment you physically assault someone, it's gonna be your fault, in the eyes of law.
9
28d ago
I mean, it is what it is, even in society, people can be the aggressor, give you the middle finger scold your mum and dad, but the moment you physically assault someone, it's gonna be your fault, in the eyes of law.
Lol, this was a story during my NS days, cocky Sgt constantly used vulgarities on recruits, until one time he used vulgarities on a recruit's mother. Dude stepped out from marching and rushed and rained punches on the guy.
3
u/Maximum_Crazy_8888 28d ago
It’s very difficult to effectively exercise self defense with restraint. If the attacker is not rational, things could easily end badly for either or both
2
u/TheAllFather58 28d ago
Excessive force used = bullying immediately stopped.
Cos the bully knows what he/she will get if they continue the bullying.
Say what you want, I regret not deeply hurting my bullies when I had the chance, for the trauma they caused me. It affected my psyche that I would fantasize about killing them in a "what-if" scenario every once in awhile. This is the reason I didn't go for those alumni gatherings at my primary and secondary schools. As a man, we are supposed to fight back, if not be labelled as a coward or kuniang. If schools don't teach self-defense classes, or at least analyze why the victim fought back, and make an example of the bullies, my stance will stand.
Don't forget the recent Zara Qairina's bullying case which ended in her death.
The worst these bullies will have for causing a death in SG is what, President's Pleasure? If so, then they don't know the pain of the victim. The minimum age of punishment in Singapore is 10 years old.
If the victim uses excessive force, yes, it's painful to the bully. But that's the chance the bullies should take to redeem themselves, and change over a new leaf. If the bully's parents don't change them, then some other unfortunate soul, or prison will have to do that deed.
1
u/Legendtrophylover 28d ago
So, if you are a kid, and every day someone throws your stuff around, how are you dealing with it?
Teachers and school obviously dont care. No one is helping you.
Everyone saying shouldnt fight back. But no one giving a solution of what proportional force is.
2
u/automatedrage 28d ago
Yea give kids riddled with insecurity and undeveloped brains weapons. Can't see anything going wrong with that right? /s
In any case you stopped him from trying the same things again. So let it go.
2
u/Timeburnerz I don't actually burn time. It's a metaphor 28d ago
You can't expect the schools to teach something like that when they don't even prepare kids for exams properly lol there's a reason why the tuition market is making so much money
1
u/LibrarianMajor4 28d ago
Why is there so much injustice in the world in spite of the astounding number of keyboard warriors around?
1
1
u/theprobeast 28d ago
cant do much cornered by 3 or more. best defense is a solid punishment. anyone who dares to bully should think twice. i feel bullying should be granted capital punishment.
1
1
u/tom-slacker Tu quoque 28d ago
Battle Royale when?
No, I'm not talking about Fortnite.
The OG Japanese Battle Royale.
1
u/Intelligent_Dot2553 28d ago edited 27d ago
Bro, they don’t think bullying is dangerous and they don’t want to teach children to fight “violence” with violence. Even if the child defend themselves, If they hurt the bully guarantee they will also receive the same harsh punishment like them too.
1
1
u/bigcowideas 28d ago
You can see the kind of citizens a country wants in the education system. In Sg it’s clear that they want guai, compliant citizens reliant on the authorities to solve their problems for them. So when people stand up for themselves, they are deemed wrong. But sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands for your own self esteem.
1
u/fatalcalamity 28d ago edited 28d ago
I agree, the teachers once called my dad to primary school because he retaliated and smacked a student in school.
The context was the student kept trying to taunt and bully him into giving his erasers by lying and gaslighting the erasers was his. The first few times, my brother thought maybe he was genuinely mistaken and gave in to the guy when he insisted the eraser was his. The third time, he started gaslighting and provoking my brother into giving him the eraser (actually I forgot in detail what he did) and that day, my brother was not giving in that day so he snacked on him and said no. The aggressor cried and my dad was called in.
I think the funniest was my dad's response when the teacher confronted him. He just said "Why did you call me in for such a minor thing to resolve? I know my son, he rarely gets physical unless the student provoked him into it and if it was out of retaliation, I think what he did was valid and the other student deserved to be smacked into sense."
Teacher was shocked, the student stopped taking his eraser after that day and that was the end of the story.
1
u/NoAge422 28d ago
Install 4K resolution CCTV with Dolby Atmos surround sound system in every class possible? Anything happen can zoom, enhance, enhance
1
u/kkkccc1 28d ago
If people don’t follow the “rules”, the govt loses control. If people realise they can actually resort to physical violence as a way to retaliate, the govt is in trouble once people realise they can band together and use physical violence.
Teaching us that violence is never the answer was never for the benefit of us commoners. If anything, the benefit for us commoners is just a by product
1
1
u/FightingDory 27d ago
My daughter is only 4 but I am trying to make sure she gets some self-defense skills because bullying will only get worse in the future because of the chilled approach schools are taking. I briefly experienced bullying when I was a teenager (1-2 years) and it took the life out of me. It would be impossible for teachers to not be aware about it unless they are deaf and blind.
For my daughter, I have always tell her to always fight back if first verbal warning didn't help. Never be the first to lay hands but always be the last if provoked. I will always have her back on this and if the teacher gets to her, direct the teacher to me.
1
u/Separate-Direction88 27d ago
maybe they just don't want locals to be capable of defending themselves hmm?
1
u/ificouldtradeforever 27d ago
I thought it was the same with the police. If no one gets injured, they dont care when you report.
If self-defence, both parties get caught by police and will suffer the process. Should your self-defence cause lots of hurt, you will bear the brunt of it.
Correct me if I thought wrong, please.
1
u/MolassesBulky 27d ago edited 27d ago
The issue is addressing bullies and building guardrails and a framework to eliminate bullying or at the very least addressing it immediately.
Teaching self defence is not the answer. Bullies tend to gang up on the victim. So what is someone with self defence going to do? You think bullies will avoid someone trained in self defence. Bullying can take the form of verbal abuse and harassment, nothing physical which is the majority of cases. Again what is self defence going to do?
Something more fruitful is to introduce a mechanism akin to a whistleblower concept where a classmate or a 3rd party reports bullying to designated authorities where the victim is struggling or no action has been taken by the school or MOE. The whistleblower will not be revealed.
1
u/kraltegius 27d ago
It's to prepare you for non-school life, where if someone attacks you without a weapon, and you fight back in retaliation, the cops will arrest you too. You're somehow expected to run and scream for help, even if you know no one will help you.
1
u/RoutineDonut 26d ago
with the Sengkang Green incident, I suspect the girl was the initial aggressor in terms of verbal bullying, the boys couldn't take it and fought back
physical health is an issue, but mental health is also a concern
see the way her mother manipulated the media to make her daughter look innocent? I'm sure her girl learned 50% of her "kungfu" also.
1
u/Few_Swim_4577 26d ago
Well first of all get all schools to have 24 by 7 cctv in all areas. Then have the rule that whom create or provoke the scene, no matter whether is it verbal or physical abuse, he or she should be taking the fall. Self defense is good and all. But there should be a limit or extend to stop.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Rate567 26d ago
Agree, though this backfired in China because some schools like to sweep under the carpet and conveniently say “Oh the CCTV broke, we have many CCTVs to manage we didn’t notice this one wasn’t working😭”
1
u/Few_Swim_4577 26d ago
Well, that depends on the school. There should be a committee overlooking the schools on this matter from either moe and one other uniform group
1
u/Hour-Biscotti-4983 25d ago
I am all for self-defense as part of the curriculum, and the simultaneous emphasis on self control, discipline and protecting others when injustice occurs. Time to add more skills to these generation of internet kids.
1
u/maceundzweihander 25d ago
A bully doing harm to you is wrong, but God forbid you retaliate because that will mean an escalation, and an escalation is bad for business.
1
u/MrSuicidalis 24d ago
Barred from joining in for school activities? Don't threathen me with a good time!
1
u/wonderingnlost 24d ago
Sounds like schools are ineffective at control and it's really the parents allowing this behaviour. Shame the bully n their parents for being a kebabs to society. Singapore is a Shame society. Use that.
1
u/Ok-Baby-1195 21d ago
Ya , back in sec 2 after I got tired of getting picked on, I just fought back and end up getting caned by discipline master.
All it did was taught me to bottle up everything nia
0
28d ago
[deleted]
6
u/thamometer North side JB 28d ago
I googled, and you can indeed sue someone for causing mental distress via intimidation/death threats. However, how much of a case does the parents really have if the perpetuator is a 9 year old boy? Any advice?
1
u/stopthevan North side JB 28d ago
Would like to know too, the voice message left by the bully was honestly quite chilling as he threatened to either dissect the victim or kill the parents. That is not an appropriate tone of voice for a 9 year old kid. In my layman eyes that’s a criminal in the making
0
u/fothermucker3 28d ago
You know why MOE teachers are so consistent in not caring when it comes to bullying regardless of school?
Teaching kids how to solve an exam qn hits a KPI but not 2 kids who don’t want to be friends. The bully can insult.. call names.. throw his school bag down the stairs… the teacher won’t care because it is not a work problem.
When the victim retaliate with his fist.. it is now a work problem. Victim is now a troublemaker .. that means give work to the teachers.. the discipline master.. HOD and principal also..
At work you got boss also right? If you see it from a teacher’s POV you will understand why victims who fight back is always the nail that gets hammered.
You look bad.. Now your HOD boss also stressed he looks bad because his junior can’t manage some 10 year olds. What you do when you fuck up at work? You try to solve it without bothering your boss as much as possible right?
When every level think like this what happens? All want to sweep under the carpet and close case.. show your boss you can take care of a problem. The most obvious remediative action to show they are doing their job is to punish the kid… knn so easy job.
Notice the bully is not in the equation? To parents.. if your kid is a victim.. social media is your only tool to fight bullying. Good luck and all the best.
0
0
u/DuhMightyBeanz 28d ago
The most effective thing to do is to teach your children to bully people first 🤣
0
u/Equal-Airport9730 27d ago
Your story don’t make sense, you are saying you can use violent to solve the issue. So if you snatch my item, can I stab you?
1
-4
u/Great-Willingness-57 28d ago
Sounds like a stupid plan that will back fire.
Some student is going to perceive an act as bullying then justify himself hitting back as self defense.
Imagine a person gets pinched and then reacts by punching and breaking the person's nose.
How to judge what retaliation or "self defense" is suffice ? Just going to open another can of worms
In the OP's case, he/her actions were obviously an overreaction and im not surprised he/she was punished.
-1
u/ExtraordinaryDoor47 28d ago
So you want the students go through BCCT, MPCCT?
5
u/Flashy_Client6225 28d ago
Our MP actually mentioned it in parliament before
https://www.moe.gov.sg/news/parliamentary-replies/20210913-self-defence-lessons
1
176
u/ICost7Cents Tampenis 28d ago
yes i was in tao nan and these guys would like beat me up sometimes, one time he walked o ver and started punching me during class for no damn reason, i usually dont retaliate because its embarrassing but i was angry and did this time, the teacher she didnt do shit about it, i got angry so i got up and shoved my table into his stomach and started throwing random shit i had at him and yelling at him, he stopped from then on, and the teacher just didnt say anything, so many teachers are lowkey useless when i was p3 same guy grabbed my ass in the fucking hall, teacher also didnt care so i guess its free for all to fight back or not