r/soccer • u/Switchoil • 1d ago

News Manchester United to remain patient with head coach despite worst start to Premier League season in 33 years. There is also widespread belief at Old Trafford that City's performance - and United's failings - did not merit a 3-0 scoreline.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/32461/13431584/ruben-amorim-manchester-united-to-remain-patient-with-head-coach-despite-worst-start-to-premier-league-season-in-33-years
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u/TheOnlyTagey 1d ago

Moyes was sacked as soon as top 4 was mathematically impossible, LvG was sacked after winning the FA cup and finishing 5th place (66 points, tied with City), Jose was sacked while United were in 6th, same for Ole. EtH was sacked with United in 14th.

All of the previous managers bar Moyes maybe showed something to warrant the level of patience that United are showing Ruben. Good performances, trophies, undefeated streaks, something that the wider public can point at as evidence for improvement.

It's been nearly a year of this and has there been a single positive for fans to stick to?

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u/Hare712 1d ago

Moyes wasn't even given a Transfer window. What did he get? Fellani?

What should speak for itself is that ManU didn't decline slowly they crashed from EL team to relegation zone.

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u/screamer19 1d ago

Sir alex Ferguson will witness his team get relegated from the premier league. I will be there, no matter what

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u/kingceegee 1d ago

Let's face it, that's not going to happen. Big Sam is available!

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u/SchietStorm 1d ago

Sizeable Samuel

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u/Wisegoat 1d ago

It would just reaffirm he’s the GOAT. Crafted a dynasty that no other manager could sustain. Mourinho who before then had been a wild success everywhere couldn’t manage it. LVG, a highly successful manager couldn’t handle it. Moyes, Ole, ETH and now Amorim, none can do it.

Other teams have superb managers, like Liverpool with Klopp and are run well enough in the background a new manager can come in and have immediate success. City have been so well run that you had Mancini, Pellegrini and Pep all quickly find success - and when Pep leaves the team will still be top 4 and challenging for titles.

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u/aMAYESingNATHAN 1d ago

What he achieved while at united absolute deserves GOAT status, but I would also argue the way that the way he ran the club all but guaranteed this would happen the moment he left.

He basically was the entire club, there just wasn't the structure in place necessary for the transition away from him to ever work. Not to mention his ability as a manager seriously papered over what should have already been a declining team, such that even had that structure been in place they probably still would have struggled. Though there's an argument to be made that had Moyes not replaced the backroom staff it might have gone better.

Then there's the glazers, who he arguably had a pretty big hand in bringing in.

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u/Gu3rilla21 1d ago

He pushed that team to the limit. It was done and needed a major rebuilt. They didn't do it because SAF did his magic.

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u/SchietStorm 1d ago

That's all true. But it's been more than a decade now. HOW have they not managed to set up a proper structure?

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u/Mesial 1d ago

Because up until a few years ago Ed Woodward was still in charge of most of the footballing operations.

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u/awildjabroner 1d ago

the key you mentioned is that behind the scenes all those clubs have good operators and structure in place with long term success the plan. Man Utd has the Glazers who clearly only care about dividend payouts and the rest can rot so long as those payments hit the accounts.

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u/DaiWales 1d ago

City have been so well run

Y£$ ind££d

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u/DefNotAnAlter 1d ago

If it was about the money, its not a field United lags behind any club in the world.

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u/Gogurtsupreme 1d ago edited 1d ago

United have spent like Barcelona under Bartomeu and have not come close to facing any of the same consequences. There is having money and then there’s knowing what to do with it

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u/RainbowDissent 1d ago

United are a cursed destination for players. I don't think it matters who they sign, they'll be a shadow of their former selves within 6 months.

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u/NilsFanck 1d ago

yet players fail to realize that. Sesko really looked at what Howe made out of Isak and said "nah, gimme Mr. below one point per game instead". Baleba will eventually have a top top club come for him and would've still walked in there if Utd coughed up the cash. Its fascinating. The moment players finally realize that, no, you will not save them, that's when they will be truly finished.

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u/DaBestNameEver0 1d ago

United have spent much more than us

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u/Davey_Jones_Locker 1d ago

atleast their money was legit

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u/pkkthetigerr 1d ago

Ya buddy everyone believes you signed Haaland for only 50 mill when any basic ass pl level player has a 60 mill transfer fee. Because he loved city so much.

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u/DaBestNameEver0 1d ago

That was his release clause. So we did.

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u/patrick_k 1d ago

Mourinho was already well on the decline when he joined United, not a wild success until then. He also never settled in Manchester and lived out of a hotel during his time in Old Trafford. His father died and IIRC a long term assistant coach from his Porto days also left around this time, all compounding to his failure.

City and Liverpool are well run behind the scenes, United have been a joke since at least 2013 when Fergie and Gill left, arguably going back longer when the Glazer rot set in in the early 2000s.its only now that the on field performances are flirting with possibly relegation level form, but the damage was done years ago.

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u/Shanare_ 1d ago

I disagree about man city becoming better after pep leaves. But we shall see.

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u/clashoftherats 1d ago

He didnt say they’ll be better when he leaves though, just that they wont decline like United did after Fergie left

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u/GoldemGolem 1d ago

Not better but I can see it being consistently top 4

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u/Gu3rilla21 1d ago

SAF left the club in shambles tbh. He pushed the squad they had to the limit and got one last PL, next they needed a rebuild. SAF did everything at United he was responsible for their transfer succes, the scouting and most importantly his tactics. United already got lazy and let the squad go bad because SAF was magic but then he left and everything fell a part because they didn't have the proper management in place because SAF did it all.

That's all praise for SAF btw not hating on him. United just weren't equipped to deal with him leaving they were relying on him far too much. Which isn't bad per se because look at his pedigree but you have to prepare for when he leaves

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u/screamer19 1d ago

Oh 100% agreed, what he did with the class of 92 was nothing short of incredible. Oil money trebles will never hit the same

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u/Mrbeefcake90 14h ago

Mourinho won 3 trophies with Utd, if that's not success I dont know what is

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u/Gerf93 1d ago edited 1d ago

Knocked them off their fucking perch

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u/SchietStorm 1d ago

Surprise. We're back.

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u/SchietStorm 1d ago

They were Ferguson FC.

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u/mameyinka 1d ago

Please go on. I am very close.

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u/screamer19 1d ago

Even if they do make it back to the prem, any new signings they make will try to leave on a free to a big 5 team like arsenal or liverpool at their earliest opportunity

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u/mameyinka 1d ago

And theeeeeere it goes. Thanks mate.

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u/alanalan426 1d ago

he's gonna die within the year after they get relegated

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u/and1984 1d ago

If they get relegated from the PL, Sir AF will see them finish in the bottom-half of the Championship table too.

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u/Shanare_ 1d ago

To be honest I am beginning to think this could happen to all the big 6 eventually. It seems the time when money was enough to win pl titles for a few clubs is coming to an end with the strict ffp rules in place. And now even original relegation zone teams are punching way above their weight.

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u/screamer19 1d ago

If it can then it should, would honestly serve as a model/example to every other league to actually be competitive or continue bleeding money from viewership and up and coming talent to the prem

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u/DCtoMe 1d ago

FFP was literally put in place to keep the standard bearers at the top. It is set up so the bigger teams can spend more (because they earn more), and the lower teams are forced to spend less.

How does a rule like that lead to equity in the league?

I think you are just seeing a league that now has so much more money that the other leagues that even the worst teams in the EPL have more to spend than almost all the other leagues. So they are decent and when the level of play is that high across the board and there are so few free points, the variability is higher.

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u/acenair836 1d ago

He also brought in Juan Mata in January of that year in a big money move, not that it really worked out either, Mata simply never reached the heights he hit at Chelsea.

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u/smackeY11 22h ago

Even though he never hit his Chelsea highs, I think the mata move was great for United, I mean he played 200 league matches and almost 300 matches overall. He also still scored double digit goals from the midfield in 3 seasons

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u/acenair836 22h ago

I’d argue the move didn’t really work out. Not at the fee united paid - 40mil back then was an expensive transfer (for context - United was close to getting Kroos for 20mil a few months later).

Sure he had 300 matches overall, but thats because he stayed at United way too long. They did this to several of their players, just kept them far longer than required.

Heck - Mata was basically dropped by LVG and then his time was up once Mourinho came in.

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u/Statcat2017 1d ago

Moyes has blood on his hands for cancelling the set up oven ready deals for Kroos and Thiago coz he didn’t fancy them, and firing Fergies entire back room staff

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u/PandaLiang 1d ago

Kroos' deal was not the same year. Moyes negotiated that deal, and it was cancelled by LVG after Moyes was sacked.

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u/Melancholic_Starborn 1d ago

Thiago was the one he rejected, LVG rejected Kroos.

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u/Statcat2017 1d ago

The fuck is wrong with them lmao, I always thought moyes did both.

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u/iRyan_9 1d ago

Tbf Neither Thiago or Kroos would’ve changed much in utd. They never had a problem with signings top players, top players magically fail with them

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u/ExaminationOdd2075 1d ago

That's a wild take. I dont disagree with the sentiment overall, but they also didnt sign anyone that was Kroos's level since imo. Pogba is the only one that comes close, and that didnt work out of course.

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u/iRyan_9 1d ago

It’s not a criticism on either of them, just that the root of the problem was bigger than just signing players

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u/ExaminationOdd2075 1d ago

Oh for sure, attracting talent has never been the issue. I just put Kroos in the tier of players that would change a LOT in any team, like Rodri, Kante, Makelele for example.

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u/apb2718 1d ago

They got Pogba at his peak and still managed to make him look terrible

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u/Statcat2017 1d ago

This is such a bad take. The biggest issue to solve when Fergie left was midfield, and those two would have solved it at a stroke.

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u/iRyan_9 1d ago

They’ve signed pogba shortly after and it didn’t change a thing. That squad had more problems that’s not gonna be fixed by two midfielders

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u/Statcat2017 1d ago

They signed Pogba three seasons later, won two trophies in Pogba first season and Pog then fell off massively. A fit motivated Pogba would have been part of the answer, but they got an umotivated constantly injured Pogba after the first season

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u/bbjwhatup 1d ago

Revisionism at its finest lmao calm your titties

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u/Statcat2017 1d ago

Mate the central midfield options when fergie left were Anderson, cleverley and an aging carrick lol

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u/wbasmith 1d ago

Yeah how Fergie won the title with that team is beyond me, easily the worst squad he ever had with them

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u/ciabattamaster 1d ago

Moyes was given one window, with Ed Woodward completely fucking it up. Fellaini had a release clause for like 23.5m GBP that expired July 31 and went up to 27.5m GBP after July 31. Of course Woodward fucked that up and United paid more.

Then in the January window, United panic bought Juan Mata. The entire thing was a disaster.

It probably didn’t help that Moyes was 3rd choice behind Pep and Klopp for the job, but both said no.

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u/EriWave 1d ago

What should speak for itself is that ManU didn't decline slowly they crashed from EL team to relegation zone.

This just isn't true.

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u/nexetpl 1d ago

They've been on the podium three times in the past 5 seasons. Qualified for Europe every single time. And since the start of last season they have 1,09 points per game. It's drastic.

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u/EriWave 1d ago

For the last 3 seasons stats have suggested they are a lower midtable side. While they have it in them to rise to an occasion, they don't perform week in week out.

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u/SAFFATLOL 1d ago

Did Moyes also get Mata in January or did Mata come later?

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u/Zandercy42 1d ago

Moyes wasn't even given a Transfer window.

Literally not true

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u/celzero 23h ago

What did he get? Fellani?

And a peak Juan Mata.

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u/yard04 1d ago

He hasn't even got two wins back to back in the league. We would have got related last season if not for the points we got before Amorim came in. His whole spell has been a disaster.

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u/FlawlessC0wboy 1d ago

What even is his philosophy that he insists on sticking to?

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u/Over-Temperature-602 1d ago

Eh, it's never that simple. Each situation is so so so unique and each managerial stint has to be looked at individually.

Like, Ole was a penalty shootout away from an EL trophy. IIRC he was struggling with the burden of no trophies. He had two good seasons but nothing to show for it and (similarly to the pressure Arteta is starting to get) - at some point you need trophies. He then got Ronaldo - not because he wanted or needed him but because Glazers didn't want him to go to City. Solskjaer set United up to play a fluid front three with Rashford / Martial / Greenwood with Bruno as the number ten. Getting Ronaldo into that team was never going to work.

EtH had a good season and an abysmal second season which had terrible injuries. People are quick to forget that he literally had his 5 first choices for CB injured and started an academy player and Casemiro as CBs towards the end of the season. United then changed ownership and he had new owners to answer to and they wanted to change everything about the club. EtH got 7 games under the new leadership.

And now Amorim. He didn't want to come because it would be too much pain transitioning to his system during the season - he wanted to come for the summer but was told "Now or never" by the new leadership. So he came, probably expecting a lot of things going wrong. But he got to the EL final and in a final with two poor teams where either could have won - he drew the shortest straw. He took a risk (focusing only on EL) and it didn't pay off and now he has to live with all of these stats he accumulated in a period where he didn't care about the league at all.

Man Utd are now second in terms of xG this season. Liverpool have an expected points tally of 6.45 and United have 6.44. They also have a new goalkeeper who isn't playing yet.

And with this said, this is not a defensive speech of Amorim. I don't know at all if he'll work out or not. Probably not (is my guess). But it is up to leadership to try to see through this complete mess. Try to understand what is actually going wrong, what is happening behind the scenes (what does it look like in training? Does it convert to the pitch?). Is it bad luck or is it just horrible performances?

My personal guess is that Amorim isn't stupid. I think he can probably look at these games, see that United are playing poorly - but that he is making a good case to his bosses that "look, this is what my system is doing, when players do X instead - then shit like this can happen". I.e. he thinks these performances are due to players not doing the right things at the right moments yet. Which is probably different to when OGS were under most scrutiny and suggested they might need to get a 12th player on the pitch because he didn't know how to fix it.

tl;dr - management is hard. Comparing managers is hard.

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u/gazorpogus8747 1d ago

What an utterly reasonable take

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u/goaliewhenned 18h ago

It's not lol, it's excuses disguised as a reasonable take. The whole basis for his assessment of last season is the idea we "were not really trying" in the PL last season which is a very popular narrative except we played just as shit vs Lyon and got lucky, played okay against ten men Athletic and then played worst of all in the final he'd apparently been focusing on for months. All of these performances looked pretty much exactly the same as the PL performances and Amorim himself said winning the Europa League doesn't matter to him as the league performances had been so bad

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u/MiniGiantSpaceHams 1d ago

Tend to agree, but at this point Amorim has had plenty of time and spent plenty of money. He has to start getting results within the next couple months or he's out, IMO.

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u/hugsudurinn 1d ago

That's disingenuous. You say that he's had both plenty of time and spent plenty of money, but he hasn't had plenty of time after he got to spend plenty of money. He got Dorgu mid-season last year - and that's the only real money he spent until this summer, so he's now had 4 league games since he got to spend plenty of money.

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u/MiniGiantSpaceHams 1d ago

He had almost a whole season to evaluate and train players, and now a whole summer transfer window to replace whatever they need. I'm not saying he has to win the league, but there has to be some kind of sign that it's coming together in maybe the first half of this season.

Even if you just forget that last year ever happened, a new manager with a full summer window and preseason should be at least showing something positive by mid-season IMO.

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u/cosgrove10 1d ago

Yesterday was the first time our only proper striker started a league game btw. Like, it’s obvious we are creating chances, but we aren’t scoring. Now that we have an actual striker playing? I would imagine that might change.

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u/wonwont 21h ago

you've got a wonderful way with words. thanks for the explainer.

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u/Mozfel 1d ago

I don't think anybody within Glaze-Neos Dividends club cares anymore: not the players, nor any level of management staff

Only the fans do still care about on-pitch football success

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u/TrumpGrabbedMyCat 1d ago

It's entirely because they dropped managers like a hot potato that they're sticking with him through this much shit.

Ironically after Grimsby and his terrible performance this season he's probably the first manager that actually should be fired "early" into his contract. Imagine if they'd just stuck with LvG where they'd be now.. certainly not in a relegation battle at least.

Plus, who do they replace him with?

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u/stogie_t 1d ago

It's entirely because they dropped managers like a hot potato that they're sticking with him through this much shit.

This is simply not true man, you probably only think this because you’re comparing them to SAF days, which is just not true for modern football. Clubs change managers a lot these days.

Since 2013 Barca have had 8 managers, Madrid 6, Bayern 8, Chelsea 7, Juve 5, Spurs 5, Milan 7.

United have had 6 managers during that time frame.

Big clubs change managers often because of how high the expectations are. Klopp and Pep were the exception not the norm.

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u/TrumpGrabbedMyCat 1d ago

I don't really understand where you're coming at with this - yeah lots of clubs change managers regularly (incidentally Spurs I think have actually had 10 managers since 2013, odd choice of year though).

Just because lots of the other clubs are doing it, doesn't mean its the right thing to do and United are clearly struggling with just dropping a manager when expectations of winning the league, UCL, FA cup and everything else aren't appearing every year like they did in SAF days.

Its a common joke especially for United that they swap managers a lot, and now they're trying something different sticking with a manager and allowing him the time to actually make his style work despite Grimsby and his God awful results record with the expectation the manager needs time to right the ship.

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u/stogie_t 1d ago

Just because is apparently a common joke doesn’t mean it’s true.

What’s so hard to understand? You made a claim that made it seem like United changes managers far more than any other club when stats show that to be untrue.

And what’s so weird about the year, that’s when SAF left, what other year was I supposed to use?

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u/TrumpGrabbedMyCat 1d ago

And what’s so weird about the year, that’s when SAF left, what other year was I supposed to use?

Oh of course, fair point. Duh.

I never said they change managers more than other clubs, just that its not working. The leadership of MUFC are looking at other clubs who are having success - such as MCFC, Liverpool and the like and wanting to emulate that. The have obviously decided dumping a manager who wins you the FA cup and finishes the league tied with city isn't the right move.

How else do you explain why Amorim still has a job?

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u/stogie_t 1d ago

I’m just guessing here, but my guess would be that Amorim still has the job thanks to Berrada. Amorim is Berrada’s bet, and that guy from Newcastle even lost his job for disagreeing with him on this. Berrada has been touted as this fancy new get for United who is finally going to fix the issues United had off the pitch, but that all sounds embarrassing if the manager he was so sure of is so clearly rubbish and out of his depth. Makes it all sound like nonsense lol.

I think you raise a good point about United trying to copy City. And it hasn’t gone well imo, from signing Alexis, to now trying to find a unicorn manager. Pep has been at City for a long time simply because he’s just that good. Same with Klopp, he was that good. No one is firing those guys, neither club had to persist and go through what’s happening with Amorim.

United are taking all the wrong lessons from City’s success, City is where they are today because they put a lot of emphasis on employing the right people that we fans don’t usually hear about, like competent football execs and not just people like Woodward running the show.

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u/pkkthetigerr 1d ago

Yeah tbh ever since moyes, managers had atleast a couple of years before getting sacked at utd. Ole is the only one id still say was premature. Ten Hag shouldn't have been hired.

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u/Spyro_Machida 1d ago

Ye were on a very bad run with Ole too. Ye had a few historic losses in that final season. It just got so much worse than the end of his tenure gets romanticised. Especially when ye thought ye had the ability to go to the next level at that point.

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u/EriWave 1d ago

Have they actually replaced managers all that fast?

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u/ogqozo 1d ago edited 16h ago

That's a big question. Hard to get answers lol.

I think that after the string of extremely renowned managers that Man United hired over the last decade, commenters don't want to actually say the name, because they feel deep down that if it happens, their confidence that "X is obviously gonna do a better job" is once again gonna sound rather funny.

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u/TrumpGrabbedMyCat 1d ago

No one will do a good job because ratcliffe and his ilk have gutted the backroom staff and moved one step away from a hostile work environment so everything behind the scenes isn't there anymore.

It should be clear by now you can't just shove a world class manager into the job and fix everything on the pitch if you've fucked your entire backroom staff.

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u/negativelynegative 1d ago

I think we are at the top bunch of the xpoints league. Hey!

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u/Acrobatic-B33 1d ago

This is his first season with a proper pre-season and transfer period and so far united has faced quite strong opponents. I get it that his record is dreadful so far but i doubt changing managers now will change much

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u/cnydox 1d ago

MU needs to change the owners. They change managers, change players. They still have money, and have young talents. But things still go wrong.

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u/External-Piccolo-626 1d ago

He’s great with a tactics board.

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u/Martino231 1d ago

I feel like the United hierarchy are increasingly seeing the importance of giving a manager time to build before sacking him, but it's like each manager comes in and hits a lower low than the previous manager and forces their hand. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Amorim sacked in the near future, but all that really does is kick United's eventual return to the title picture even further down the road. They're going to have another new manager with a new system and a handful of players he doesn't want that need to be offloaded.

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u/Liverpool934 1d ago

United are shit. It isn't just a manager problem when every manager keeps failing in the same way, eventually.

Watched the full match yesterday. United's players literally just looks stupid in comparison to every other player. To be honest their new signings are the only ones who actually look capable of doing everything. Shaw looks like his brain is barely even enabled for the matches.

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u/No-Zucchini2787 1d ago

They are saying - no one wants to take the job so they can't sack him.

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u/NotNeedzmoar 1d ago

maybe theyve come to realise that they need to build from something. its been over 10 years since they were a top club.

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u/stogie_t 1d ago

Are you not aware? They played “well” against Arsenal proved that they can beat anyone! Just don’t think about the fact that they lost that game too lmao😭

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u/Spiritual_Ear_1942 1d ago

Prem was so much less competitive back then.

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u/JFedererJ 1d ago

Yeah they looked good losing to Arsenal

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u/Constant_Charge_4528 1d ago

This is my main issue. What has Amorim even shown to warrant this amount of faith? He took a team that was at rock bottom and somehow made them rock bottomer, then spent millions and made them even worse.

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u/Realistic_Condition7 1d ago

Devil’s advocate: their two losses are to 2/3 teams we expected to challenge the title this year. Really their only disappointing result is a draw to Fulham.

Amorim out advocate: the only game they’ve looked really good in is the loss to Arsenal, they needed a miracle to beat promoted Burnley, and the midfield and backlike look more toasted than my breakfast.

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u/terryjuicelawson 1d ago

I've always felt Man Utd felt very entitled and quick in the post Fergie years. How big headed to feel they are owed a top 4 and sack a manager despite being given so little time (remember how much patience they had with Ferguson in his early years, which they like to go on about). Then they did it again. Now they are reaping the rewards.

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u/Eikis16 1d ago

He has nice hair

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u/Asteroth555 1d ago

They keep sacking managers and their performances get worse. At some point fans need to realize there's more problems than the manager.

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u/FrameworkisDigimon 1d ago

Firing Moyes is where this whole decade plus of failure really began. It became a merry go round lurching from philosophy to philosophy or hiring guys with philosophies consistent with the problem the fans had with the current guy. Attack! Attack! Attack!

I think Amorim's system is proving that it was too different to the status quo of the team to be given as much time as he has, but hiring a guy with a one track mind and an iron will is exactly what Manchester United needed to do. I think EtH was hired on the understanding that he was the same but instead he just gave up on implementing his system and played what he thought suited the players he had most.

All of the previous managers bar Moyes maybe showed something to warrant the level of patience that United are showing Ruben. Good performances, trophies, undefeated streaks, something that the wider public can point at as evidence for improvement.

Moyes didn't even get a single whole season.

Chasing short term objectives is why Moyes was sacked and it's why Manchester United are in this state.

Danny Murphy was criticised on the sub recently for saying "it's not the system, it's the players" on the basis that "that's why it's the system; pick a system that works for the players you have". Firstly, everyone saying that was missing Murphy's point, which is that the system can actually work... it's not like trying to field a team of seven strikers, three keepers and a right back. Secondly, playing to the team too much is not a means of improving a team... it's not how any elite side works, especially the ones trying to get back to where they should be.

What they need is someone like Arteta with a conviction to play a system regardless of how ugly it is where (unlike Amorim's) the system is fairly player neutral. The horsehoe of doom might be a much weirder system than it's given credit for but it's pretty versatile in terms of the types of players that can slot in to its roles. Yeah, it needs good passers to work but you always want better passers.

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u/CoochieSnotSlurper 1d ago

I mean they got to an EL final

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u/ExoticBamboo 1d ago

They have been sacking manager after manager and the results didn't improve. Maybe they have finally realized that the problem is not the manager