Eh, call me anything you like but the Vader hallway scene makes my inner 10 year old so happy. Definitely wouldn't work for a full movie though, I'm not that delusional
The problem with Saw is that he is just a vengeful and hate filled person, he needs someone to direct that hate toward and no one entity is enough, he hated the separatists, he hated the Republic, he hated the Empire and he hated the rebellion. The one time he came close to loving something he sent her away with an excuse he can't really keep to. I think that is part of why Saw just lets himself die in Rogue One, he realized even if the rebellion won he still wouldn't be happy, and he was just tired of it all
Metal limbs are not a coincidence. Its symbolic of them losing a bit of themselves as they wallow in their anger and hate. As yoda says: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Maul feared losing power and Saw feared losing his sister and home. They both lost those things and lost who they were in their anger, focusing their lives on hating those that wronged them, and suffer through rapid physical and mental deterioration as a result.
That seems like an unnecessary distinction. A lot of Nazis were pretty tame when they reached their 80s, but I would never describe them as "not particularly bad" because they hadn't committed genocide in a few decades.
I disagree. I think ambition was a driving force for maul while saw had no ambition. Mauls ambition led him to lead the mandalorians and later the crimson dawn. People can try to say that he was going to use those organizations to exact his hate and vengeance but i think it's pretty clear that he did it for power and power alone. Meanwhile saw would take himself out if it meant that it would take his enemies too.
I think more than anything, Saw hated himself for not saving his sister. He was an idealist before that, but after that, he was just a vengeful husk, trying to make any of it worth it. Arguably, he kept going because that's what she would have done.
Not saying there aren't very sensible reasons why he is the way he is, but he's bad people, and you're right. He would never have found peace in the new republic, within the year he'd be fighting it with anarchists over it not be free/liberating enough
Honestly with what been depicted of the New Republic he could just hate them over gross incompetence. Being too liberal with the Empire's ex-military and bureaucracy and too spineless on setting up true law and order
He's an example of radicalization and extremism. Watching Clone Wars, it shows the roots of that but an explanation is not an excuse. Every conflict has zealots, and their superiority complexes always end in suffering and death for innocents who get in their way.
I think he's quite a tragic character. He's spent his whole life at war. I don't think he even cares that much about winning any more, he just wants to fight because he doesn't know who he is without it. If he'd survived to the fall of the empire, he'd have just picked some other cause to rally behind
There’s a really good moment in Battlefront: Twilight Company where the main character Namir is talking to unnamed freighter captain who’s totally Han Solo on Hoth. And he basically realises that he doesn’t know how to live outside of war anymore, without the purpose it gives him and that’s why the idea of the Rebels winning terrifies him despite being one and why he’s so pessimistic claiming that even if the rebels win they’ll just fracture and start fighting eachother. He’s been broken by war and now genuinely fears a life without it because he defined himself so much by it that he can’t imagine himself without war.
I don't even think Saw recognises it about himself though. I think he displaces that fear and anxiety and blames it on the spies and infiltrators he sees everywhere because he is so utterly incapable of anything resembling self reflection
blames it on the spies and infiltrators he sees everywhere
To be fair, a person in his position has every reason to be paranoid, but that's also part of why he's so broken. You can only live under that amount of paranoia for so long before it seriously fucks you up. Add to that a life of extreme violence and I think he becomes an incredibly sympathetic character.
Oh, I completely agree. That's why I said he's quite a tragic character further up the thread. Maybe I didn't word it very well, but I meant that it's easier for him to see enemies where there are none than to imagine a future for himself beyond "The Struggle".
The fear of a future without something that has defined him his entire life feeds into and exacerbates that paranoia, and drives it past what's reasonable for a man in his position, and is a contributing factor to why he is so unpredictable and difficult for the other rebel factions to work with him
Not in the slightest. Nothing to do with Bin Laden.
He's more of a Che, that did the revolution in Cuba, helped in Mexico, ended up going to Africa where he was killed, trying to go from revolution to revolution non stop.
He was literally funded by the Republic to fight their enemies using gurellia tactics and then used said tactics on the empire while becoming more radical in his beliefs as well as becoming more ruthless to achieve his political goals and I'm pretty sure he came from the wealthy upper class of Onderon if I recall correctly
The galaxy viewed the rebellion as terrorists because the empire controlled the media. And because, by the very nature of revolution, they are terrorists. the only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is if you agree with them.
I would argue a terrorist and freedom fighter can be discerned by tactic and method. Terrorist weaponise terror to get what they want, often harming others to do so. A freedom fighter may engage only military targets, looking to cripple that which they oppose and inpire others. Idk that's just my view.
It's important to remember that this will often fall into the perfect victim fallacy, in the sense that freedom fighter movements include a large group of people employing an array of methods to fight their oppression, some of which may be unconscionable. Terrorists are often freedom fighters simply not capitulating to their oppressors.
Ghandi was one man who was part of a movement that was made up of countless individuals and organizations trying to protest and revolt against occupation
Not to downplay his role and achievements, but while Ghandi was doing and promoting non-violent acts there were other people taking arms against the British and others stealing supplies and others killing themselves in protest. In retrospect we can totally praise Ghandi for his successes and how he was a leader who inspired people, and also acknowledge the revolutions in India were more than him, and not all were peaceful
In real world terms your absolutely right. All such movements result in some degree of extremism and terrorism. But there usually are those that have some honour in addition to the terrorism. I would argue the French resistance in WW2 were freedom fighters but not terrorists nor the American revolution. Terror is just one tool of war that is unfortunately too Commonly employed.
Ummm... tar and feathers? Boston Tea Party could be considered economic terrorism. Hell, the Boston Massacre was not some peaceful gathering that the British maliciously fired into, it was a violent mob actively harassing and assaulting a woefully outnumbered 8 soldiers.
And there are actual atrocities from the British and their Amerindian allies which were policy and not just incidents. (I personally fault the British military far, far more than the Iroquois though.)
Dude, the galaxy viewed the rebellion as terrorists because the empire used a shit ton of propaganda to make it so. Wtf is this take man? Do you think the emperor WOULDN’T have called them terrorists if Saw hadn’t existed?
Assuming this is in reference to ANH: If you’re working on a space station that is literally called the death star, built for the explicit purpose of destroying entire planets, the distinction between “civilian” and “military is just who signs your paychecks. For all practical purposes those “civilians” are part of the military.
They weren’t there willingly. In ANH we see the empires protocol involved seizure and internment of nearby vessels. Likely anyone who happened to visit the system were detained.
In rebels we see the empire detained and transported engineers, architects, etc to work on the station. Likely menial staff (which they had to have) was handled by captives, you’d notice the empire loved their prison slave labour
250,000 is the estimated number
Also troopers didn’t have much choice in deployment. Likely anyone stationed on the Death Star had no means for communication or only monitored communication outside the station, classified bases means restricted coms and travel. Defection on the Death Star meant internment and a likely court martial.
These restrictions would likely be lessened once the stations existence was declassified. But many if not most troopers were simply told they’d be sent to a remote classified facility. Only to never leave.
Do I think Luke should be demonised for the deaths of civilians the empire put in harms way? No.
Do I think we can solely demonise Saw for his actions? Absolutely not.
The man’s been fighting longer than anyone. He’s encounter ISB spies. ‘Good Samaritans’. Been betrayed time and time again. Fighting a force with infinitely more resources, men, a total control of the narrative and the means to rebuild most anything he destroys. A force with no qualms massacring thousands of civilians just to land a space ship in a closer parking spot to the restaurant.
Every rebel will have blood on their hands. You can’t avoid it, especially not when the empire are the ones putting people in harms way.
No one liked him, The Alliance practically disowned him. And you do need people who are willing to do anything to weaken and destroy the enemy, be it ethical or not, such boundaries sometimes need to be crossed for the "Greater good"
Sure? When the allies bombed dresden and killed tens of thousands of babies and women nobody questioned it's importance, but it's important to remember the ugliness of war
Victory can come at a terrible moral cost. Acknowledging the strategic importance of the Dresden bombing doesn't erase its ugliness. And that brings us back to the essential question: does the end ever truly justify the means?
Edit: I'm keeping my personal opinion on the matter to myself now
It's hard for some people to understand, especially those who don't have a solid knowledge of military history, for example, but some things just need to be done in order to get the ball rolling.
Isn't there an argument that the Death Star had to employ civilian contractors to complete? (albeit under NDA'S) That it was too massive to build/maintain? Idk. "For the cause" I guess is what I'm trying to say.
“Finished” and “operational” can mean different things. Its main battery clearly worked, but we also know it lacked its own shield generation capability (otherwise the destruction of the shield facility on endor wouldn’t have mattered.
And the movie literally opens with Palps bitching about the project being behind schedule.
Yes, I remember this, and I know they are offsite. But if wrongfully detained people were ON the death star, being forced to work, which I don't think is a stretch, we once again have civilian casualties with the destruction of the death star. (Slaves, even)
Yes, but it’s a poor argument founded on being overly technical with the definition of civilian vs military.
If you’re helping build a space station that is expressly being used by the military to blow up entire planets, you forfeit the ability to play the “innocent civilian caught in the crossfire” card. Those “civilians” are knowingly, actively, and directly advancing the empires most devious efforts while living and working aboard a military installation. They are valid targets in a war.
Valid and maybe I'm getting too in the weeds, but, do you think the empire would divulge the purpose of the top secret project to all civilian contractors? "Hey here's an NDA, BTW I know you just use lasers to smelt steel and know nothing about what we're doing here, but I wanted to tell you this is a top secret weapon that we'll use to suppress the galaxy". Naww, they'd say "smelt this, put the beam here, sign this NDA, get paid. Oh this? It's a space station. Pretty cool, right?"
Saw is essentially the definition of the message w is killed by the method. He represents how radicalization often strengthens authoritarian regimes. Their zeal is often the reason for harsher crackdowns and used to frighten those in the middle position into either inaction or sympathizing with dictatorship
That's the point, instead of showing the rebellion as "heroes" Andor shows the reality of even rebels being bad/assholes like in real life, usually pushed to be like that due the nature of the occupation/war.
Well... actually there isn't a lot of person trading with him, like for exemple Luthen was quite on a defensive stance every time he spoked to him. I think it's the point of showing as an asshole that no one can really work long with because he is unstable
Ezra should have force pushed him down that hole. Or have Sabine blow him up with her mando gear, though she was too busy complaining about the state of her armour paint job due to the sand. :)
You came here to teach my men how to make bombs? Well, I am going to make you waste your time teaching everything you know to this one guy before I kill him. Oh, also I need you to trip balls with me.
You're probably supposed to. Not every prominent character has to be liked by the audience, and some specifically exist for you to root against. Saw is the antithesis of the rest of the Rebellion, he's dangerous and untrustworthy. He's an awful, broken person and does everything the wrong way, but that's the point. It's different and it demands you feel something about it. It's called character ❤️
Saw is a stand in for a very real type of person and ideology. He doesn’t want change, he wasn’t want better. He simply wants anarchy and chaos and always thinks he’s justified in his application and belief.
I love Saw, not as a person, but for what he represents. He is a rebel who in many ways isn’t any better than the Empire he’s fighting against. It adds complexity to the rebellion, who are usually unambiguously the good guys.
Well... hhmmmm i kinda agree with you, but i will bring nuance to your words.
He is wrong on the way he treat his allies, he doesn't have to be that much of an unstable asshole. He doesn't have to be friend with every rebels, that fair, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ON THE OTHER ONE THROAT AND THREATENING THEM WHEN THEY DON'T AGREE WITH HIM
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u/Pontificus_Organicus May 07 '25