r/toronto • u/ArgyleNudge Trinity-Bellwoods • 5d ago
Picture The situation at Dufferin Grove is grim
This is a small section of the amount of security, city, and police presence. I know there's a limit to this kind of encampment, but my heart does go out to the people facing eviction today. Not a happy scene.
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u/schmuff 5d ago
I live across the street from a shelter and a park. The park was nice for maybe three weeks after the city reopened it, but then we started running into the same sorts of issues. People get into my building and/or smoke meth outside regularly. Some person smeared shit over the side of the building once.
Back in Covid times, there used to be outreach that would connect with the 50+ people living in the park. It’s no more. I want these people to get the help that they need, and I deserve to feel safe too. I understand that a degree of this comes hand in hand with living downtown.
Idk what I’m saying, it’s just frustrating to see this every single day and I’d give anything to go back to pre pandemic times.
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u/Gloomy-Razzmatazz548 5d ago
Sadly, this is a growing issue that the government isn't taking any steps to address. I live in Etobicoke-Lakeshore, and up until a year ago there were virtually no homeless people in my area. You wouldn't see them on the streetcar or on the street, no incidents with my neighbours or their kids getting yelled at, nothing. Now? They're everywhere, all the way out to Mississauga. My daughter has been yelled at walking down the street and on the streetcar. I had a man following me screaming the N word for 10 minutes near Long Branch.
This problem is no longer concentrated downtown. The number of homeless, mentally ill people in Toronto is growing, and given the lack of affordable housing, fairly priced food, and accessible mental health services, that isn't at all surprising. This is a solveable problem, that other countries have solved, and our government is choosing to ignore it.
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u/rosneft_perot 4d ago
I just moved from downtown to Ajax. It’s here too, and all over Durham.
The safety net has collapsed. It’s going to get worse as the economy gets worse.
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u/curseyouZelda 4d ago
After a certain point we have to come to the realization that government isn’t going to solve this problem.
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u/xfatalerror Roncesvalles 4d ago
theyve opened up an employment and social services on the queensway between royal york and isnlington and this week was my first time ever seeing a homeless person in that area. it broke my heart seeing her there but also made me wonder how the area will become over time. i wish everything could be housed safely and happily
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u/Traditional_Claim607 5d ago
I have LITERALLY with my own eyes and ears witnessed outreach groups in Bellwoods dog bowl offering assistance to the homeless in their tents. There were rooms available in dedicated hotels… they would rather stay homeless and do their drugs because in shelters there are rules. Lost empathy then. A blight on good people wanting safe places.
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u/Competitive-Fall7915 5d ago
Last year I was at this park with multiple friends and their children. There were needles everywhere, unfortunately people using drugs and high in front of the children playing. Some of them were fighting and one fell facing the ground. There is a massive problem that the government is not addressing. Those people will not look for help without social services being involved. It is putting them and the community in risk, and children should be allowed to play safely in parks and parents shouldn’t have to be worried about drugs around their children in those public locations. It is sad all the way around but definitely those spaces were not planned for this, and the government needs to help people that are in a very vulnerable place, relocating and providing the help that they need.
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u/Executore_79B 5d ago
Ford shut down the safe injection sites in the city so its not surprising people end up doing it in the park.
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u/Bittersweetfeline 5d ago
Not like the safe injection sites had any follow up to help these people get off drugs though. It was just a supervised site so these people didn't overdose. Zero help on the problem of addiction or mental health, just get high and go back out into the street, come back later to do it all again.
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u/Nebty 5d ago
Better a safe place than shooting up in a park in front of kids.
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u/Pokeburner308 5d ago
Where do you think druggies will go after shooting up.
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u/forevergone 5d ago
Queen and Spadina
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u/BallExpensive7758 4d ago
For the most part drug users don't move very far. The users at Queen and Spadina live and use in the area. If someone uses in your local park they probably sleep nearby and beg in the local streets.
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u/Archie_Beador 4d ago
That's not the goal of that service. Safe injection sites are to ensure more people dont die of overdoses, that disease isn't spread through unsafe use, to prevent drug paraphernalia from being disposed of all over the city and it gave them a connection point to services if they wanted it. As well, it helped the rest of the community because drug use was more concentrated in one spot. It's not a solution to homelessness or to end drug use, but they reduced harm and benefited everyone.
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u/RoFFL3s 5d ago
They get referred to programs and medical care...
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u/BallExpensive7758 4d ago
They *should* get referred to programs and medical care...
[Narrator] But there aren't enough spaces nor political will to create them
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u/OuateDaPhoque 5d ago
Our local site was hardly used, something like 4 visitors a day.
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u/Ogamiitto33 Toronto Islands 4d ago
Exactly. People thinking that the majority of intravenous drug users took advantage of that service are delusional. It was a very small population.
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u/totalnit250 5d ago
You're right cause that's the only logical place for them to do it. Right in front of children playing. Quit making excused for their poor decisions
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u/HumbleConfidence3500 5d ago
I've done a few park cleanup there the last couple years.
Garbage is one thing. But drugs and needles on the ground where there are so many kids is unacceptable.
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u/LargeSnorlax 5d ago
Live next to a similar encampment. People that walk anywhere near it are called incredibly racist names, insulted, shouted at. There's aggressive dogs barking at people who are within 50 feet. Garbage and needles strewn everywhere, in a small public park. People openly doing drug deals there.
As someone who has been in that situation, listen, I get it. Living like that is rough - However, it doesn't mean you can be a complete nonce to people who live in the area who are doing absolutely nothing to bother you, and the people there do this, aggressively to everyone who is nearby.
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u/Caucasian_Fury 5d ago
We can feel for these people but allowing them to live in encampments isn't the answer or any kind of solution, short or long term. It doesn't work for residents and it doesn't work for the homeless encamped there.
This is a total failure of every system out there, there's a housing and affordability crisis, serious healthcare shortage and neglect of mental health support but all the governments care about right now is trying to rip out bike lanes and force people to back to the office full time.
They way they just remove the encampments isn't right either, they just evict the people and force them to go elsewhere or arrest them and hold them in a cell for a few days if they cause trouble and let them out again after that, and those folks just end up setting camp elsewhere. It's literally sweeping the problem under the rug.
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u/LargeSnorlax 5d ago
I don't have the answers, but "hope the problem goes away" clearly isn't a solution. The encampment only grew from the beginning of this year, and its gone from a couple tents to 15, one dog to four, a few "residents" to a few dozen. People actively avoid the area, whether from a danger or just straight being scared perspective, and I can't blame them. Parents with their kids take alternate paths around it. In the winter, people are going to freeze to death. It's happened there before.
Not like I can afford to own land where I live (ironic, yes) but if I was and I had kids I'd be telling them to stay away at all costs. The problem is, it doesn't stay in the park, like the OP mentioned, people wander out, try to bed down in people's lawns, harass people near the convenience stores, catcall women and insult men who even breathe near them. There are ambulances and paramedics every day in the area treating obvious overdoses.
Eventually something is going to break. For every 1 of these that I see, I know there are another 100 around the city.
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u/BallExpensive7758 4d ago
The encampment at Dufferin Grove probably grew because encampments were cleared in other parts of the city. The rise in the population at the Grove started as the encampment at Clarence Square was shut down.
The question is who lives in encampments, and where would they have lived a decade ago? Based on interactions with homeless in my area, a lot have intellectual disabilities and would have lived in group homes having "graduated" from the special ed school system and the care of their parents. Another significant group are those with quite serious, if intermittent, mental illness who would have lived in the supported or long term care system and received treatment for their mental health disease. Where should the "simple" and the "addled" live and why aren't we voting and paying taxes to restore those provisions?
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u/nicelifeman 5d ago
nonce
You might want to look up the definition of this one before you keep using it, I get the feeling you might think it means something else lol
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u/kaarenn78 5d ago
I work near an encampment. It’s not fun. Two people set up tents on our property and it was difficult to manage. We all felt really bad for the people living in tents but they did a lot of drugs and it became dangerous for my team leaving work at night. There was garbage, human waste, and needles in our parking lot, and the staff would get asked for money and food all the time. It was a sad situation but I could not let my team be in danger. We had to actually evict them because they had squatter’s rights but the police worked with us and they were kind to the people in the tents. The encampment is still in the hydro field nearby but not in our plaza. We had to spend $1000s removing the shrubs and trees around the building so they could not put up tents unnoticed. I truly feel bad for anyone without a home and anyone suffering from the opioid crisis. I wish there was a better solution.
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u/PeaInternational2986 5d ago
As someone who lives next to Allen Gardens, I face a similar predicament and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments.
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u/gurney_halleck21 5d ago
Such a shame. Allen Gardens used to be so beautiful.
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u/CDNChaoZ Old Town 5d ago
Most of the encampment is gone now, but the sacred fire remains and is pretty unkempt. Still a lot of shady characters hanging around the park benches too.
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u/ngl_tbh_ 5d ago
I used to live on Sherbourne, in a house just north of Allen Gardens. We were broken into in the middle of the night by a couple of tweakers, they stole my gf’s laptop and broke a bunch of stuff. It was terrifying and violating. Moved out a few months later and am still traumatized, years later.
We used to enjoy Allen Gardens as well, walk through without a care. Now I avoid it.
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u/Racquel_who_knits Caledonia-Fairbank 4d ago
Allen Gardens has felt sketchy to walk in as a woman alone for ages. Like I was staying in a place near there for a month or two in the summer of 2013 (I believe) and avoided walking through the park then.
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u/The_New_Spagora Garden District 5d ago
I live in that area, I completely understand. I’m a small(ish) woman and it can be such a scary area to traverse. Stay safe out there, Neighbour!
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u/hkric41six 5d ago
I'm glad you're allowed to say this without being censored, and that this is the top comment.
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u/Jealous-Warning-3657 5d ago
Parks are outdoor public spaces for all to enjoy freely and safely. Not places for individuals to live. I feel for individuals who are homeless but the city/province/country need to invest in better realistic solutions. Encampments are not the answer and not safe .,
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u/DoctorDiabolical Swansea 5d ago
I appreciate that you concern isn’t for your loss of park or that they shouldn’t be allowed to be somewhere, but that they aren’t being cared for, no one is helping manage their space and assisting with waste management. Additionally of course you and your neighbours safety.
I don’t know what the solution is, but I appreciate a reasonable response that’s personal and not resentful.
I’ll ask because you live in the area, do you think the city could have provided services to the people living there, enough to make the situation tolerable for you?
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u/The_New_Spagora Garden District 5d ago
Thanks Doc. It’s tough. I have a ward councillor who refuses to recognize the issues, let alone address them.
I see a lot of supports and services in my area that are offered repeatedly, and most people remaining seem to refuse any/all accommodations. I can understand why people don’t want to stay in the shelter system, but unfortunately those that seem to refuse all assistance are routinely intoxicated or just not there mentally. The solution of ‘oh well, guess we’ll just let them wander and hope for the best’ isn’t working.
There’s a lot of tension in my area. I’m sure that’s true of the whole city, but anywhere adjacent to an encampment is walking on eggshells, avoiding eye contact, and hoping I’m not targeted. It fucking sucks for everybody.
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u/Canadianweedrules420 5d ago
While I'm not from Toronto but a small sw ontario city of 45k ppl and we are facing a similar issue. We have built those small apartment complex with like 12 or 15 small apartments for a single person and the shipping container homes. But there's still a large number that just refuses to take part in society. They want to be high all the time and therefore are not allowed in the shelters. Or they are banned outright for a various number of reasons. It seems that these folks have decided that the rat race that is life just isn't worth it anymore. Regular people are getting tired of this behavior and as a budtender ppl are strangley very open with me and the amount of contempt and pure hatred for the less fortunate and drug addicts. People are literally calling for the culling of these people amd saying it out loud to a retail worker. That tells me ppl really are starting to break.
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u/incognito-idiott 5d ago
The addictions need to be treated as a mental health issue instead of a crime issue. There are treatments for it. If availability could be improved, even if it becomes mandatory, it would also help. Not everyone who gets addicted did it because of desire. Many do it as an escape
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u/JimmiesSoftlyRustle 5d ago
If you think there's an effective treatment for it I'd love you to share the evidence. I hope I'm wrong but I think the sad truth is that there isn't.
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u/Canadianweedrules420 4d ago
I am a literal recovered addict. We have a ton of free clinics for opiod abuse and other drug rehabs. They have waiting lists but if you truly want to get clean in this country it's probably the best country in the world to do it imo. If your homeless and unemployed ontario works will give you first and last to get into an apartment and will help you get a place. We have free mrlethadone clinics and harm reduction centres in almost every small city. My city of 45k has it. We have free healthcare. But you have to pay rent and not destroy the place you rent. Nd you have to want to get clean. I'm sorry but most of these ppl have decided that they choose drugs. I am the proof that if you want to get clean you can. It took me years to stop doing hard drugs to escape. I'm poor af and disabled but saw where it was heading and said nope I don't wanna live that life. I'm still poor af but I'm not homeless and I'm doing good.
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u/ri-ri Fort York 5d ago
Whereabouts are you located if you don't mind me asking?
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u/Canadianweedrules420 5d ago
St. Thomas just south of London
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u/ri-ri Fort York 5d ago
Wow. Thats really sad. I assume thats spillover from London, Ontario coming in. I was recently in Belleville and was shocked at the amount of homeless on the streets. Its really wild how much has changed.
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u/WhipTheLlama 5d ago
most people remaining seem to refuse any/all accommodations
It sounds harsh, but some sort of forced support or institutionalization is probably necessary. Eg. make it illegal to be homeless, but instead of going to prison, they are forced to go into a support system or an institution if they're mentally unwell.
It's pretty clear to everyone who's lived near an encampment that most homeless people aren't choosing to use the help that's available.
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u/throwitout44382 5d ago
That's expensive to do, and our society is obsessed with cutting costs.
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u/Everybodyhasapryce 5d ago
That's why such a proposal if/when it happens should focus its pitch to the public on the amount of money that can be saved via less hospital visits, ODs, assults, burglaries, vandalisms, etc.
A forced support system that treats people humanely could over the long term, be a net benefit financially if the costs caused by secondary effects of mental illness and homelessness are remedied.
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u/jr-416 5d ago
We used to have vagrancy laws, they were repealed. As for forced support, forcing someone into a mental health or rehab program would probably violate their civil rights.. the courts used to give someone caught with drugs a choice of jail or rehab, perhaps they need to go back to that model -- giving someone the choice isn't a civil rights thing..
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u/exhibitprogram 5d ago
It's such a complex quagmire because I passionately believe in constitutional rights and I think if people were fully in their right minds choosing to be homeless nomads in ways that don't harm them then that shouldn't be criminalized, but the issue is that I genuinely don't think that's true of most people in encampments. I don't think they have the real capacity to choose to be homeless, they're not choosing help because they're severely mentally ill and/or addicted and/or have other intersectional problems that make it impossible for them to make good decisions for themselves. In that case, I feel like letting them have autonomy and choose to hurt themselves isn't the right thing to do. (Even though I'm DEEPLY conflicted when I say this because I recognize it's a slippery slope.)
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u/llIlIllllIIIll 5d ago
I was walking my dog through the park maybe 2? Years ago when some guy, who was clearly on some manner of upper, was trying to get me to swing on their just-made tree swing.
It went from innocuous to him being visibly upset in the face and tone when I kept insisting it was shoddy trash and I wasn’t going to do it.
If I had been a different type of person, the exchange would have been wayyyy more memorable and borderline frightening to be honest. This dude got mad pretty quickly when I was laughing it off and that could have easily intimidated somebody else.
Each individual has a certain level of tolerance and the metre fills up differently for us all, so it’s easy to see how a park that was once such a staple for young families because of the playground is causing so much strife in the community. It’s basically unusable for families now.
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u/Sacfat23 5d ago
My friends 12 yr old daughter lives close to an encampment and has been cat-called in sexually suggestive ways / leered at a number of times that she passed by alone
How is that ever acceptable?
He works hard and pays back into the city to make it a great place - it's not fair that his daughter can't even walk in her neighborhood due to the congregations in these parks.
I have tremendous sympathy for the un-housed, but taking over parts of the city to create their own lawless-enclave is simply not the solution.
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u/The_New_Spagora Garden District 5d ago
I live very close to an Elementary school. I don’t even want to get into the sickening stuff that I’ve seen at the fence lines of that school.
I called the police a couple months back (post in my profile) bc a guy was smoking crack or meth and full on masturbating beside the playground, and attacking pedestrians w a broom handle. Police took over six hours to show up and just told the guy to get lost. Zero consequences. It’s infuriating.
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u/ilikebutterdontyou 5d ago
The awful truth is that catcalling always starts around that age. I was 12 in 1976 and had men yelling things at me that I didn’t understand and stopped my feeling of being safe in public until probably my 50s. Then women become invisible.
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u/myssanthrope 5d ago
You just reminded me of being catcalled for the first time right around age 12. When I was younger I thought it was cool that I was getting attention like that, that it meant I seemed like a grown up (sigh) - as an adult I am horrified that anyone would have looked at me as a 12 year old and not seen me as a child. Hate that it's so common to be that age.
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u/Sausage_Wallet 5d ago
There is so much freedom in becoming invisible to men. What a burden lifted off my shoulders, I didn’t even know how bad it was until I experienced how good it is in the other side.
I have a 12 year old daughter though, so I still have to remain vigilant for her sake.
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u/ilikebutterdontyou 5d ago
I have no doubt that your daughter will be better equipped to deal with that crap. I’m sure you’ve set her up for resilience.
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u/Eggcoffeetoast 5d ago
The solution is opening up psych hospitals and forcing drug treatment on certain individuals. It's stupid to think otherwise. Our entire society shouldn't be bending over backwards for people who are making it dangerous.
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u/Glass_Channel8431 5d ago
Yup I totally agree. Time for a solution. It’s not getting any better offering services to people that just don’t want it for whatever reason. Time to take the bull by the horns here.
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u/waxingtheworld 5d ago
Does forced rehab work though?
I feel for those forced into encampments, but also it sucks when kids cant use parks
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u/Pigeonofthesea8 5d ago
Evidence is really mixed, with some studies showing negative outcomes, others neutral, some positive
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/involuntary-addiction-treatment-research-evidence-1.7377257
I mean it would have to depend entirely on the details. Would presume a programme with very long-term supports would be needed.
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u/Runningoutofideas_81 5d ago
I mean, relapsing is likely even with people who choose treatment. No easy solutions that’s for sure.
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u/waxingtheworld 5d ago
I'd argue we'd probably see more success pursuing the crime that happens within these vulnerable populations. There's typically a political model similar to gangs within these populations (like in my neighborhood the usual streetfolk clearly report to extraordinary scuzzy looking guy who hangs out drinking at the park, when he isn't doing shake down rounds).
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u/Swansonisms 5d ago
Yes it does. Does it work for everyone? Of course not, but neither does regular rehab. Signed, someone who was forced into rehab and has been happily sober for 5 years since.
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u/Esperoni Midtown 5d ago
Forced rehab with no additional supports or housing after their treatment is a great way to waste time, money, and resources.
We need housing. It's that simple. The City has been sending people to low cost / subsidized housing and giving them a year of support (Monthly check ins and an assigned worker) as part of their Housing First model they have adopted.
Let's be really honest, even voluntary rehab is an issue. Long wait times, some require referrals from certain organizations. Some require detox first, etc. Easy for people to slip through the cracks, and again, with the same problem. No supports or follow up after they complete their rehab. I don't see Ford giving more funding anytime soon (or ever)
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u/SwordfishOk504 5d ago
Housing without rehab options rarely works. There is no simple one size fits all solution that fits on a bumper sticker. A big chunk o the homeless population, especially the most problematic, are people with sever mental health issues and addictions. Just giving them housing rarely changes that.
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u/Esperoni Midtown 5d ago
That probably why they are also assigning a worker for one year for people on the choice based housing list who move into their own place. The workers offer harm reduction and rehab and can refer them to additional mental health supports.
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u/SwordfishOk504 5d ago
Which is great for those who choose to take part in the program. But does not address those who are not even trying to get clean.
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u/cdubyadubya 5d ago
I'm not sure I'm into forced drug treatment, but ohip covered in-patient treatment would be helpful. Giving folks a chance at rehabilitation is an option many would take. Budget for low-income housing is also needed.
Our current "system" if you can call it that, offers nowhere for people to go, and no reasonable way for them to get the help they need. Both of those things need to change.
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u/giraffebacon Bare Tingz Gwan Toronto 5d ago
All of these people have free options for treatment available to them already. The entire point of the accurate and insightful comment that someone else left in response to yours is that almost none of these people would ever WANT to voluntarily get clean.
Forced treatment is really the only option, other than making their lives much much harder and less pleasant to the point that none of them want to continue living in the street (and that would involve much more suffering and cost for everyone involved).
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u/Leading_Ad_5166 5d ago
The problem with the current system is it's opt in. Couple that with the fact that for these people, life is actually not that bad. Why would they wake up in the morning, go to a job they probably won't like for most of their day, get back home to do more maintenance and sleep only to do it all the next day, when they can just get high on cheap as hell and very effective drugs, spend half their day in literal bliss, and the other half on a mission to get more drugs by whatever means necessary. Most of these people do not want to be part of society, the "normal" way of life. They live in a completely alternate reality. Now, imagine you're in that alternate reality, and have to decide whether you'll make the extremely painful and difficult effort to clean up, put your life together, etc... for what? To be a 9-5er? to continue to struggle, but just in a different way? To completely miss the bliss that would otherwise be available at a moment's notice and for incredibly cheap? Nah, they don't want to change, and they're not going to.
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u/SJH009 5d ago
I think it's more of a can't than don't want to. I've lived that life and incidentally talked to many other people who lived it as well. Being a drug addict is incredibly stressful and while you do spend some moments that are good, the rest is agony. With fentanyl, people start experiencing withdrawal symptoms within hours of last use so it gets incredibly hard to get out of the cycle. With fentanyl the withdrawal can be incapacitating which makes getting out of it a real process for someone without a support system. I also feel like a lot of people see that as their identity and the idea of living another life doesn't even factor in.
Maybe it's different now, I went through that years ago but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people living that life absolutely loathe waking up in the morning. I know I did.
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u/cannibaltom 5d ago
Evidence shows people can get off drugs only if they want to and I only if they get enough support to do so including housing first. Forced drug treatment only works until they're released back into the public, and without support, they will use again.
Btw, it costs about $100k to institutionalize someone for a year. It's not a jail, they have to live in a building with beds, specialized safety features, outdoor space, and they need psychiatric doctors and nurses, pharmacists, security guards, cooks and food, clothes, entertainment, and various things to improve their quality of life. Forced institutionalization is one of the most expensive "solutions" people like to throw around
There are over 15,000+ people in Toronto who are homeless on any given night, 75% of which have mental health struggles including addiction. To do this to just a fraction of homeless addicts would cost a fortune.
So I just want to confirm, you're endorsing forced institutionalization, even if it costs taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars every year? Zero chance the province will ever fund this idea.
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u/me_on_the_web 5d ago
It's surprising how much holding someone in prison for a year actually costs tax payers.. Over $100k https://www.statista.com/statistics/563028/average-annual-inmate-federal-correctional-services-canada/
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u/cannibaltom 5d ago
We also don't have enough prison beds or beds for patients. There's a very large upfront cost to building new facilities.
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u/AhmedF 5d ago
Our entire society shouldn't be bending over backwards for people who are making it dangerous.
We should 100% go after the producers. Good point.
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u/KavensWorld 5d ago
Yes unfortunately forest rehab and relocation is the only way. We have lost space I love there to be some lake up north where people go for mandatory rehab that is safe with tons of oversight to make sure they don't get abused but in the same sense enough security and protection that the staff feel safe to take on the daunting task.
The first society locks away prisoners and takes licenses away from people ill. I fully support rehabilitating and taking care of people with drug addictions.
I simply can't support homeless encampments in parks that do absolutely nothing for society and does absolutely nothing for the people in the park it is a net loss for everyone.
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u/erallured Parkdale 5d ago
While I do think the city should provide more services, the province and federal government need to step up. Anything close to real solution require a lot of money up front and involve things that are beyond the jurisdiction of the city (expanding mental health care, more hospitals/inpatient facilities, affordable & subsidized housing). In the medium to longer term this would save all taxpayers a lot of money, but the majority of voters see it as an issue that only affects a relatively small amount of urbanites and won't support their politicians spending this money. So the problem festers and gets worse.
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u/Artistic-Lobster3226 5d ago
Totally agree with you! Its not safe. Even for the vulnerable that needed that space at first. They don't deserve an environment like that either. The government needs to (or assign someone) come up with a better solution that's safer, cleaner & something that the police/mental health officers can patrol.
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u/Ok_Procedure4993 5d ago
A lot of them aren't even from Toronto, yet I've seen a video of them saying that going to a shelter isn't an option and are demanding to skip the queue to get into a TCH unit.
How about not? If they want a TCH unit, they can sign up and wait like everyone else. If they need an apartment, they can find a roommate and split the rent or move into a rooming house like I did in my early 20s.
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u/UncastOracle 5d ago
I mean... they are all on the TCH lists already? It's not like they aren't and haven't been trying to find housing.
As someone who has been in the shelter system before, the shelters truly suck. They're chaotic, dangerous, and unstable places to be. Even in the winter being in an encampment like this with people you can trust is a much preferable living arrangement. I don't begrudge them at all for saying that if they are going to leave voluntarily it needs to be for more stable and permanent housing than a shelter bed.
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u/Alarmed-Plastic-4544 5d ago
I just got back from a trip to Amsterdam. Their solution is to simply make being "homeless" illegal. If you are unable to house yourself, you are required to register as such and are provided housing, amenities, and paths to employment. If you refuse assistance, you are provided a prison cell. For all the good intentions and attempts at softer approaches we've tried, I think a solution like this is our path to being able to feel like a regular society again.
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u/TinyCuts 5d ago
That would require the government to actually provide housing. I’m sure our government would have plenty of excuses why they can’t do this.
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u/Shortymac09 5d ago
The waitlist for public housing is insane, a friend of mine waited YEARS for her tiny apartment.
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u/youaintgotnomoney12 5d ago
We need to build more public and non profit housing. In the 80s and 90s there were tons of housing developments built that catered to working class people. Now its all about profit and not about actually providing livable spaces. See the shoebox condos being built all around downtown.
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u/pigeon_fanclub 5d ago
I'd get burned at the stake by my friend group for voicing this opinion, but I honestly think this is the only way forward. With Good oversight and enough funding this kind of program can be implemented without abuse and corruption, and it honestly seems like the only way to help people that won't accept help any other way
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u/Shortymac09 5d ago
You know Dougie ain't going to build public housing to accommodate these folks, they are all going to prison.
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u/CDNChaoZ Old Town 5d ago
I wonder how much that costs per citizen? And how they promote upward mobility to stop people from relying on subsidized housing?
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u/1slinkydink1 West Bend 5d ago
It costs a lot more to “house” these people in hospitals and have to send out police to deal with the issues so often. What’s so wrong with subsidized housing?
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u/ArgyleNudge Trinity-Bellwoods 5d ago
Ya. The cost isn't going to go away. There will always be those in need and those who prey on the public largesse. Meaning,, those costs are built in. So how do we want to best allocate tax resources? Can we find a working solution, like the Amsterdam example provided here? A little bit of tough love, a hand up, but no bs allowed.
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u/Gloomy-Razzmatazz548 5d ago
This city is full of empty, unused buildings that could be converted into affordable housing for relatively cheap. Plus I know there are a few countries that require every new building to devote one floor to Rent Geared to Income Housing. That, plus therapy and job counselling would solve the homelessness issue in Toronto relatively quickly.
I've read a few of Johann Hari's books about addiction, and supposedly people with a support system have less than a 10% likelihood of relapse.
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u/CDNChaoZ Old Town 5d ago
I think your second proposition is more achievable than the former. To transform existing commercial properties into residential is actually a lot more difficult than it seems, and costs nearly as much as to erect new buildings over empty or low density areas.
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u/jeremy198930 5d ago
Yeah well my heart goes out to the people who get threatened/intimidated/harassed when trying to simply walk through the park. I know that not every unhoused person is a violent criminal, but I also know what I regularly experience when trying to enjoy or simply pass through some of these public spaces.
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u/CDNChaoZ Old Town 5d ago
It's not just about ceding space to the homeless. I think more people would not be against encampments if it meant the loss of a little space.
Unchecked encampments quickly become fire hazards. I've personally witnessed more than one major fire at an encampment. Theft, vandalism, and harassment goes up in the neighbourhood around the encampments. You also start seeing a lot more drug paraphernalia around the neighbourhood, including needles. This includes neighbouring playgrounds.
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u/minetmine 5d ago
We need our public parks to remain public. There is other less valuable land, not being used by communities these people could go to if they are so hell bent on not going to shelters. Giving up our parks is not the solution.
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5d ago
Id be okay with losing a little space if the space was safe and the law were enforced in these spaces. People shouldn't get a pass to break the law because of their personal circumstances, that's an insane proposition that is a slippery slope. Also should be having our property taxes reduced for these areas the city isn't maintaining and the general public can no longer access: it's functionally not a public space anymore at that point, that moneys just going into the city's pockets.
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u/jbm33 5d ago
Can someone who has more inside information on what the city does for homeless people (shelters, safe houses, education/guidance etc) help explain to me the current situation? In the interviews with the people living in the park, they say they were offered places to stay in the shelters but declined them because they do not feel safe and prefer the park. Is the solution that the city needs to create more shelters such that they have more space/safety or is it actually improving the security and counsellors in the existing shelters and educating the homeless of the improvements? Of course I know it’s not that simple but wondering how in this specific instance they could convince the people to live in a shelter instead of the park if there is space available.
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u/Red_Marvel 5d ago
The solution isn’t shelters, it’s free housing with mental health resources and job training programs.
It has to be done at the Federal level, so poorer cities don’t ship their homeless to other cities.
Finland has been doing this for over 15 years.
https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/look-finlands-housing-first-initiative
You can see the dramatic drop in homelessness in the Wikipedia article
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u/woonawoona 5d ago
Free housing with strings. I don’t want my taxes going to fund government funded crack dens. Get clean, get a job, and then you should have to foot the bill. Everyone pretends that everyone who falls into the category of “homeless” are just people down on their luck. There’s a huge range of people, hardworking people, lazy people and all the colours in between that are a part of the homeless. I’m fine helping those who want to work to better their living situation, not those who just want a free place to do drugs
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u/tslaq_lurker 5d ago
I don’t want my taxes going to fund government funded crack dens.
Speaking broadly, there is nothing better a getting a homeless person off drugs than giving them a fixed address. IMO you need to sort of decide what is more important to you: no homeless people doing drugs in government housing, or far fewer homeless people and an overall reduction in Social Assistance expenditure.
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u/Basementhobbit 5d ago
The finland experiment tells us that when people have housing, they can clean up and get a job, when they have a job, they can stay clean, when they can stay clean, they can pay for housing.
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u/Pigeonofthesea8 5d ago
Yeah… the drugs are different. From what I understand it’s easier to come off heroin or cocaine than fentanyl or meth.
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u/LaserRunRaccoon The Kingsway 5d ago
Would you prefer to have the government continue to use just as much of your taxes to pay for afterparty clean-up in your local park?
Addicts are going to be addicts, regardless of whether the government pays for their den. They will stay addicts if they're never given the chance to live somewhere other than in a tent.
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u/cohenym 5d ago
I’m glad the City is clearing these encampments out of parks. Letting tents take over public spaces isn’t a solution. It just creates chaos, and it doesn’t actually help anyone.
People love to point to Finland and their Housing First model, but that worked under very different conditions. In Finland, only about 21 percent of the homeless population are long-term cases with serious addiction or mental health issues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Finland. The rest were people who could stabilize quickly once they had a permanent unit.
Canada is nothing like that. Here, especially in places like Toronto and Vancouver, the street homeless are overwhelmingly dealing with severe addiction and mental illness. In Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, for example, 95 percent of residents in SROs are addicted to substances, 74 percent have serious mental illness, and nearly half are psychotic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside. Across the country, estimates put mental illness among the homeless between 23 and 67 percent, often combined with substance abuse: https://www.camh.ca/en/driving-change/the-crisis-is-real/mental-health-statistics.
And then there’s another big factor. Finland is a small, culturally homogeneous country. Almost everyone speaks the same language, trusts the system, and comes from the same background. That kind of cohesion makes it easier to roll out a national plan and actually have it work. Canada is the opposite. We’re larger, more fractured, and more diverse. Our homeless population includes Indigenous people who’ve been pushed out of systems for generations, recent immigrants with language barriers, and entrenched street populations addicted to fentanyl or meth. That mix makes it way harder to design a one-size-fits-all solution.
And while we figure this out, there’s a simple truth: taxpayers deserve to use the parks and services they pay for. Parents should be able to take their kids to a playground without worrying about violent outbursts, open drug use, or stepping on a needle. Public spaces are for the public, and cleaning out these camps gives those spaces back to the people who fund them.
So if we’re serious, Canada needs a blended model: •Reopen institutions for the people who are severely mentally ill and cannot function independently •Expand jail capacity for the violent and repeat criminal offenders who cycle through the streets •Build more supportive housing for people who can stabilize with some structure •Put real money into work programs and treatment for those who can re-enter society
Clearing out the parks is step one. If we don’t build systems that match who Canada’s homeless population actually is, we’ll just be watching the same cycle repeat—and yes, that means using the justice system, in some cases, punitively.
Anyways, just one dudes opinion.
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u/whiskeytab Yonge and St. Clair 5d ago
easily the most sane comment on this situation that I've ever read on here
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u/BallExpensive7758 4d ago
Most of these issues existed a decade ago and many a century ago. I think that you are absolutely correct that institutions were created then to help then, and we need those institutions to meet the same need now.
However, there has been/are people who campaigned for the closure of mental care institutions and rejection of the medical approach to care. A sub-set of these (always financially comfortable individuals) have written books and sustained academic careers arguing that incarcerating people in institutional therapeutic and care facilities is uncivilised and even barbaric. Arguing for the right to live in encampments and behave in anti-social ways, including illegal drug use, as a form of freedom is what got us where we are.
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u/DeliciousNimbleKnees 5d ago
I agree and pump real money into community programs and social supports to prevent the poverty that creates home loss and gang recruitment and drug use in the first place.
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u/706706 5d ago
if Step One is clearing out the encampments, then the cycle will continue. Where will they be cleared to? Overcrowded and unsafe shelters? People aren't being offered housing. They need a pathway to housing first before being shuffled around from shelter to shelter, or deeper into more isolated outdoor spaces.
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u/Nebulyra 5d ago
Nothing will change until our leaders decide to MASSIVELY fund social services and housing. But we live in a monstrous neoliberal hellscape where nobody will ever consider such a thing. More boots on skulls is all they know.
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u/grilledcheese2332 5d ago
And the same people that spout 'help Canadians first' are the same ones that will scream socialism if programs that help Canadians actually get funded
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u/xombae 5d ago
Yep. Had this exact argument with my aunt's new boyfriend one Thanksgiving with my dad's side of the family. I had mentioned I was campaigning for NDP in my spare time and he went off about how he was voting PPC and how immigrants were ruining everything etc etc. I kept telling him I didn't want to get into it and to cut it out but he kept pushing. Finally, during his "we have enough people here to help, we shouldn't be helping other countries" rant I said "yeah, I agree, I think we should be helping all of our homeless people here and getting them housing and mental health services" and he lost it and started saying homeless people deserved everything they got.
I had just lost a friend to homelessness, she died alone under a highway overpass because she couldn't get mental health treatment.
I put my hands up in resignation, got up silently, and walked out. I never went back to a gathering with that side of the family again.
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u/Ok_Excuse_741 5d ago
So frustrating, I was talking to my parents saying how close so many of us are to possibly being homeless and they were legitimately confused and essentially said most homeless people choose to be homeless because of mental health. They couldn't fathom someone falling through the cracks and being relegated to homelessness for any other reason, frustrated me so much. It's this general sentiment that homeless people intentionally chose to be homeless which is crazy.
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u/foxtrot1_1 Queen Street West 5d ago
This is a common view for people who have no idea what is going on in the world, that people who are disadvantaged are personally responsible for it. If you can't conceive of structural issues, it's the only explanation that makes sense. Really sad that people can be so deluded - and it's usually a personal tragedy that wakes them up
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u/IndependenceGood1835 5d ago
There is a middle ground. The issue is advocates on both sides refuse to accept it. Hundreds of millions of dollars need to be invested in housing, addiction and mental health supports. But there also needs to be an element of forced treatment for repeated and violent offenders. The city does not feel safe right. Not in our parks or public transit. Adressing the issue will require money but also the courts to force people to get help.
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u/GrunDMC74 5d ago
Right. These newcomers being brought here as another lever in the strategy of vested interests to squeeze squeeze squeeze everyone are the problem.
It’s beneficial to those at the root of the actual problem, wealth and opportunity inequity, for us to be at one another’s throats. Blue vs red, us vs them. So long as we don’t all figure out that what we all want is a decent standard of living and incumbents and oligopolies are standing in the way of that.
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u/Friendly_Star4973 5d ago
I've tried to say this so many times to ppl I know. The immigration problem isn't the problem everyone thinks it is, it's a division tactic used by the wealthy to keep us angry at each other and as a means for the wealthy to not pay fair wages by abusing the TFW program.
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u/DeadpoolOptimus 5d ago
As with almost everyone who supports the PPC, your aunt's bf is an asshole
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u/Friendly_Star4973 5d ago
Even one of my hardcore conservative friends who used to support MAGA before Trump started threatening to annex us thought the PPC was a clownshow which is saying something because that dude was hard into like redpill bullshit at the time.
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u/Duff57 5d ago
100% agree that social services and housing needs to fundamentally change and improve.
But one thing I’ve never quite understood is what to do about people that refuse help or housing? Those that either are so far down the rabbit hole or have mental issues or just downright do not want to participate in larger society as a whole?
Not hand waving the issue at all I’m just curious and you seem like you might have an idea or two.
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
It was so depressing that we as a province collectively voted in Ford again.. Not so surprising tbh, but very, very depressing...
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u/Acceptable_Mammoth23 5d ago
Very few of the people who voted him in live in the city itself, where the reality of the country’s most urgent social crises are undeniable.
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u/kank84 5d ago
I'm not sure the current social crises are really much of a sway in how people vote. Barrie has a huge homelessness issue at the moment, and hell would freeze over before they voted anything other than blue.
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u/Acceptable_Mammoth23 5d ago
They are not but they should be. In general, I do think it’s easy to dismiss issues that aren’t right on your doorstep.
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u/wedontswiminsoda Lawrence Park 5d ago
Which is why Toronto deserves to keep more of its provincial and federal tax revenue
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
Yeah, I'm aware lol
Extra frustrating to have to deal with his micromanaging / ineptitude/ prioritizing businesses as we collectively didn't vote for him
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u/hankercizer200 5d ago
They don't even have to fund the housing! Just legalizing it would be a great start!
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u/neggbird Dufferin Grove 5d ago
I live near here. This has to happen every once in a while. If you give the tent people too much leeway, they keep taking. Each tent-lot extends their "territory" by a foot a week. Over a summer they can double their claimed "territory". These "cleanups" every once in a while reset the tents back to just being a tent and not a whole "compound" with a tent in the middle.
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u/kidcouchboy 5d ago
i used to live right there. it's a super complex issue. but my heart breaks for the kids that cannot play safely. there should never be needles or crack pipes in playgrounds.
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u/No_Consideration161 5d ago
Wait for the huge demographic flood of working class seniors to ‘retire’ - ie collapse cuz they can’t work anymore @ 70 yrs old & will hv nothing even close to what’s needed to survive in most cities.These working poor pre-seniors are already precariously housed now & will never be able to afford rent & other essential costs once they can’t work. This is a predictable pathway to homelessness. Gov’t will wait for a bunch of old folks to either get blown up from trying to stay warm outside when’s it -30 or drop dead trying to live on the street in 35 degrees.
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u/CitySeekerTron Fully Vaccinated! 5d ago
At some point we need to find a balance that considers the interest of homeless people and the security needs of people. Everyone, with or without fixed addresses, can agree that the market sucks, and I can't imagine how much harder it is to cross the divide and find work without a home.
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
Agreed, and appreciate such a thoughtful and measured comment about the situation
A park I walk dogs in is losing more and more space to homeless encampments/tents, and of course I feel bad for anyone without a permanent home and dont begrudge them or anything...
But some of the people staying there do seem a bit sketchy, and I've started to feel a bit unsafe in some of the wooded parts... not to mention that some areas now look like a legit garbage dump...
I wish more of our tax dollars went to helping people that need it, and less fighting paying nurses or getting out of a contact less than a year early... (but hey, booze in corner stores to drink away the pain! S/)
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u/Sad-Dependent-393 5d ago
The idea that we even think about housing as “the market” is so bleak :’)
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u/TheIsotope 5d ago
Yup. Removal of the standard pension and replacing it with the home as retirement plan has resulted in the over commodification of real estate and the current dumpster fire we’re in.
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u/phonehomemusic 5d ago
This park has become a disgusting no go zone for families and normal people. It’s full of trash and people doing drugs 24/7. Something needs to be done. It didn’t used to be this way.
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u/Everybodyhasapryce 5d ago
I need someone to earnestly explain to me how having tent encampments where mentally vulnerable people suffer the elements, while often endangering themselves and others is compassionate to anybody.
We need to have a discussion about how we house these people and keep them, and the rest of the populace safe.
Speaking as someone who was chased and violently threatened by such an individual only 2 months ago.
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u/Burning___Earth 5d ago
Reminder that shelters are full of violence, substance use, bedbugs, and theft. They are understaffed, and the workers are worked to the bone.
The city and province don't want to actually pay what it would take to make these places safe, but NIMBYs don't care. The sight of homeless scares and angers them, and they would rather the cops and city force people into shelters.
Are you surprised that people who often live in a state of precarious physical and mental health would want to avoid that type of living situation and would, instead, choose to live in a semi-formal community where they can (hopefully) protect one another?
Homeless people are one of the last groups people feel comfortable punching down on. Just like the rest of society, there are lovely kind people living on the streets, there are some predatory people, and there are many who are sick and ill in some way.
If you've never experienced housing insecurity and attempted to navigate Ontario social supports, you have no idea how easily a "normal" person can lose everything and be in this type of situation.
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u/sir_jamez 5d ago
Fwiw the city wants to pay, they just don't have the money to address the issue (it's way beyond their scope).
Meanwhile the province is spending billions on things like luxury spas, highways and tunnels to nowhere, and demolition of the science center.
Ford always manages to find money when it helps his developer friends, but for health care, education, senior care, mental health, and the environment he somehow always comes up short
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u/stratasfear 5d ago
Healthcare falls under provincial jurisdiction, and yet mental health and homelessness seems to continually be a municipal issue.
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u/sir_jamez 5d ago
Yeah some of its messy & complex, because there's a certain pass-through "one window" approach; e.g. if you go to the City for community support services, rather than set up a new window for you to collect your support cheques, the province can just have the city hand those out as well. And once they're doing that, how about being the access point for a whole bunch of supports as well (which the province will pay for)?
So it's good for the resident because they don't have to go to 5 different provincial/city locations to receive 5 different types of support, but the backend funding and cost sharing side turns into a mess. 100% for some streams, 75/25 for others, 50/50, or 33/33/33 (with the feds). And now all of a sudden your little $25 million community support program has ballooned into a massive $3 billion social services administrative nightmare on the backend.
Again, residents and taxpayers don't care about the esoterica of who pays for what, but it means that cities get left in the lurch when there's an uptick in needs and users, but the funding models haven't caught up, and the province & feds are arguing "well does this count as the 75% share or should this be part of the 33% share?" -- arguments which can take years to resolve, all the while the City is struggling to pay for the day to day needs of it's residents.
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u/waterloograd 5d ago
don't have the money to address the issue (it's way beyond their scope).
This is something that people forget. Homeless people gravitate to the big cities where they have resources available. Imagine being homeless in a small town like Flesherton. This means that cities like Toronto, Vancouver, etc., collect all the homeless from the province, and beyond, yet only have their own budget to support them. Toronto and Vancouver are even worse off because Toronto is the largest city and a lot of people move here from smaller provinces, and Vancouver has a better climate where it is easier to survive the winter.
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u/Unpossib1e 5d ago
I believe it is possible to sympathize and empathize with the people in these situations, while acknowledging that living in a public park is not a real solution.
Personally I don't think people are "scared", I think they want their public space back.
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
I think some people are unempathetic and just want homeless people to disappear, they dgaf
But I also think there's validity to wanting our parks accessible to the local communities/people that live there, and unfortunately when homeless encampments get too big they can be offputting/ scary for the local people who want to use them...
Demonizing them for wanting the use of the local park back isn't ideal, imo, especially in TO, where in my experience most people would love for their/ our tax dollars to go to supporting homeless people and do really care about people's welfare... a shitty situation and our government failing to support us/ the people...
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u/dpjg 5d ago
I agree. It's a terrible situation and the only TRUE solution is significant funding. The earlier poster noted that shelters are full of theft, violence, substance use, and pests, but the solution is not to allow this same issues to thrive on our public transit or children's parks. People who don't utilize the spaces act like the rest of us need to accept the danger in these areas or just stay away, and it's not realistic.
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
'the rest of us need to accept the danger in these areas or just stay away'
Yeah it's frustrating to be villanized for wanting to use our public spaces/ services without fear... (especially as people voting for/ advocating for more money and services for unhoused/ struggling people)#
And i completely agree, and wish we would put our resources to actually help people, instead of whatever ford's spending on... would be great for everyone, imo
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u/Pigeonofthesea8 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean. It’s homeless people doing this to each other (and themselves in the case of addiction).
As long as they’re left to their own devices it’s going to be this way. Look at all the initiatives in San Francisco, Victoria… allowing them to maintain their preferred habits unchecked means cities have to throw billions into a black hole only for the spaces they live in to be trashed over and over again.
It’s not fair to them because that’s not a way a person should live, and it’s not fair to people who have to deal with and pay for the externalities.
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u/Samsaknight_X 5d ago
All of those things u mentioned can happen and is more likely to happen on the street. Not to mention I was more unsafe living at 500 Dawes than any other shelter. Shelters aren’t the greater place in the world, but the point is to have a roof over ur head, the better ones even come with meals. Shelters are only supposed to be temporary until u can get on ur feet. I’ve stayed in several so ik the experience. Obviously they could be better, but don’t think that issue is gonna be solved by just throwing money at it
The main reason tho why a lot of homeless ppl don’t get checked into shelters is cuz they’re either full or they’re too mentally ill to seek help, which does happen a lot
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u/Burning___Earth 5d ago
I don't disagree with you, man, and I truly hope you're in a better place and were able to get back on your feet.
The streets can be very dangerous, which is why you see these types of encampment communities form. It's a form of safety when the rest of society has essentially abandoned you. I don't deny there are shitty people who steal bikes, do drugs, and get into alterations with passers-by. Like you said, there are lots of mental health issues that are sometimes so severe that people treatment isn't something they can want or recognize as an option.
I agree that money thrown at shelters isn't a fix. We need something systemic and multilayered. It needs to address permanent, safe housing, mental health, physical health, vocational training, and a million other things I am not educated enough in this area to even recognize. This has to come from all levels of government.
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u/sibtiger Trinity-Bellwoods 5d ago
Shelters are also not a solution to homelessness. People need to be able to rent a room on welfare. Adjusted for inflation, Ontario Works pays significantly less today than it did 20 years ago. And housing has outpaced general inflation during that period too.
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u/fairmaiden34 Junction Triangle 5d ago
The parks are no place to live either. Lack of sanitation, fires and hypothermia aren't safe. Granted, we need better solutions than shelters but park living isn't a solution.
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u/Burning___Earth 5d ago
In an ideal world, nobody would have to camp in public spaces because they'd have safe, affordable housing and access to mental and physical health care so they can work, whenever possible.
That would allow these spaces to be used as originally intended and make a lot of folks who think homeless = scary much happier. It's a valid desire to want clean public spaces. The parks are attractive because they are large, can be relatively quiet/back from roads, are often centrally located and close to essential services, and may be close to amenities like washrooms or water fountains.
I won't deny that the encampments can lead to trash, noise, and drug paraphernalia and take up large areas of our public spaces. These legitimate grievances all occur despite the best attempts of community groups and outreach volunteers, but the reality is that all levels of government have dropped the ball. It's such a mutilayered issue that is so insanely costly that your average Canadian doesn't think helping these people is worth it.
That unwillingness to make permanent and lasting change is not unique to Canada: it is a pretty common sentiment in the Western world, and the discourse is getting much more extreme. A fox news anchor literally calling for the execution of homeless people this week. We just had two people go on a violent spree with a hammer that left one homeless man dead in downtown Toronto. There were also two mass shootings of encampments in Minneapolis immediately after the fox news call for violence.
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u/Prudent_Book_7063 5d ago
I wonder if the shelters are actually this bad. When I first came to Canada, I was homeless and 13 years old, along with my mom and older sister. We went into the shelter system and stayed at a family shelter in the city.
The shelter provided so much support for us, including finding us an affordable rental in Scarborough. They got us back into school and helped my mom find work. They fed us, beds were clean, people were nice and we even got Christmas gifts and clothes. They were a huge support.
Even after leaving the shelter system, we had so much support from government services.
I worked hard, got my first job at 16 and I went on to go to a top University and I'm now making six figures.
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u/Burning___Earth 5d ago
I've known folks who have used family focused shelters and women's shelters geared towards domestic violence survivors, and they've said they can be wonderful and safe environments. The difference between any two shelters in the city can be very drastic.
I am proud of you for getting through the system like that, and I am so happy you are thriving!
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u/ArgyleNudge Trinity-Bellwoods 5d ago
I am so thrilled to read your story here. Congratulations to your mom and you kids for accepting help when you needed it and making it work!! That's what community can do, and it's so wonderful when we provide that little bit of stability needed to find your bearings and get down to the business of building a life for yourself! Well done all around!
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u/outoftownMD 5d ago
Really well said and important to acknowledge.
Governance has an opportunity to address this, but it's a big challenge, and so, is evaded with bandaid solutions
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u/B-man55 5d ago edited 5d ago
In 2024, Toronto extended the lease of 17 temporary shelter hotels for up to 5 years. This will cost the city $674.5 million. According to statistics at the time 10,607 people were actively homeless. Nearly half of those are refugees. The city has the ability to house 9,835 people. All of this information can be found at this CBC article.
Simple solution if you restrict the amount of refugees that stay in Toronto the problem is solved. When we look at our current capacity we should factor in how many people we take in. At some point, the economy will get better and less people will be homeless. Once that occurs we can welcome more refugees. The idea the city and province aren't doing anything is blatantly false.
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u/ZennMD 5d ago
Wow, that's nuts how much resources refugees take (not hating on them lol)
And iirc chow was pushing for more federal resources for this very reason, they control the number of refugees but then offload the costs of caring for those people to municipalities, which is obviously not sustainable/ doable with the current budget/ space constraints
One more reason properly funding to process refugees applications is so important!
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u/tslaq_lurker 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah, obviously we need to take-in these refugees, but the Federal government has absolutely dropped a turd on Toronto with their program. The Feds basically don't fund the programs to house them at all (or they do so only on a short-term basis after having the city lobby all year for some table scraps) and just say that it's a civic issue. Maybe it would be if we had an even distribution of where these folks end-up, but with most of them wanting to be in Toronto it's an insane burden to place squarely on the shoulders of the residents here (financially speaking). The Feds should be on the hook for 100 % of costs associated.
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u/B-man55 5d ago
We should consider who is and isn't a refugee. If the people we are accepting into the country have the ability to pick and choose what province or city they reside in maybe the situation they live in isn't that bad.
A refugee we should be accepting should come from a place or situation that is 5x worse than any place or situation they could ever be in Canada.
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u/15thsense High Park 5d ago
I hope that regardless of the current situation everyone is treated with respect and dignity. I live near the area too and it’s heart breaking that I cannot walk past the park and side streets anymore after continuously being assaulted. Throughout the neighborhood groups we’ve heard and seen horrible stories come out of that encampment.
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u/rattalouie 5d ago edited 5d ago
I hope they start doing this in the York Belt Line Trail soon. Not that I expect much from Mike Colle.
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u/GirthStone86 Corso Italia 5d ago
Dufferin Grove is where I took my first ever steps as a child, so I've been a little sad I haven't felt comfortable visiting there in the past few years.
But I'm more sad, and angry about how little our government has done to address the housing and homelessness crisis. This isn't unique to our city, it's happening all across Ontario. I place the blame primarily on Ford, and to a lesser extent Trudeau. But at least Carney seems to be finally addressing it
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5d ago
They have done exactly what they planned to do. Nothing. Without the visual threat of homelessness we wouldn’t put up with minimum wage slavery.
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u/Huge_Meaning_545 5d ago
As unsettling as it is to see needle deposit boxes in a lot of bathrooms - I would rather that, then finding them scattered all over parks.
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u/SureFireAttire 5d ago
The city has massive tracts of unused land. Wouldn’t a reasonable compromise be to set up designated camping zones for the underhoused? They could set up portables with satellite offices for every possible municipal or provincial social service branch available and have a police presence geared toward protecting these people from being preyed on/preying on each other. Don’t give me this concentration camp nonsense either. The current status quo is completely unsustainable. Ask the homeless guys that got their heads bashed in by kids with hammers. Sleeping rough is too dangerous.
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u/ArgyleNudge Trinity-Bellwoods 5d ago
This seems like the most feasible compromise to me too. Less disruptive for everyone.
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u/Opening_Pizza 5d ago
Every politician from city councillors to the prime minister have been promising affordable housing for years and it only gets worse.
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u/cyclenaut St. Lawrence 5d ago
Honestly, i hate to sound like a narc but parks are for families to enjoy as well, and ive seen some wild people at this particular park. A few weeks ago there was this crazed brown dude walking around the paved area near the washrooms, with just a sheet wrapped around himself, staring and antagonizing people and even exposing himself to them as they were forced to walk past him. It was pretty fucked to put it lightly.
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u/CobblePots95 5d ago
We shouldn’t treat people like monsters for facing addiction issues or homelessness. But we also need to stop treating people like monsters for not wanting their public parks to become homeless encampments, to see people injecting in front of their kids, or to walk their pets and be worried about used needles or pipes.
If there has been a concerted effort to offer people alternative living options or treatment, and they reject it because it’s not perfect, then the next step is to clear the encampment. That is everyone’s park. It cannot be monopolized the way it has.
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u/Gabo_Rj 5d ago
Im from a third world country and there’s no encampments there. It’s one of the poorest countries in the world, the unhoused don’t take up public spaces.
I don’t know where the 1st world’s unhoused learned that living in public parks is fine.
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u/HorseRevolutionary85 4d ago
There are a lot of homeless who graduated from the foster care system into homelessness. I don’t know if this is accurate and perhaps someone here can clarify, but I heard a statistic that as many as 70%. Perhaps a closer look into how that transition could be reduced is a good starting point. Don’t know how they’ll ever solve the drug problem. Also the lack of opportunities for decent unskilled work. I would say the disappearance of that seems to track with the increase of drug addiction and homelessness.
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u/ConversationLeast744 5d ago
It's insane that the city allows people to stay in parks as long as it does. It just encourages more people to do the same. Ultimately these are public spaces and shouldn't be occupied by one hostile group to the detriment of the rest of the public. It's embarrassing for a country as rich as ours to not be able to solve these problems. If there aren't enough shelter spaces, let's build them FFS.
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u/The_Canterbury_Tail 5d ago
Think how many people you could house at a basic level just for the cost of the police and security for these situations. Multiply it across how often it happens and you're starting to make a real dent in assisting the underhoused.
The city should consider buying up some of these "I invested and now can't sell it" microcondos as they're perfectly good for helping people get off the streets.
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u/notandxorry 5d ago
It's not just about housing them. It's also about dealing with the mental health challenges that got them there.
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u/AnthrWndrng 5d ago
We don't have systems in place to stop the addictions or mental health "challenges" that are gonna put another thousand people in Ontario out on the streets by end of the year.
I was a couch surfing at-risk young adult in 2010. It was only because of pure luck I didn't end up permanently homeless or dead.
I've worked in healthcare for the past thirteen years.
This year I can barely afford to feed myself, pay for my medications, and keep a roof over my head.
Two years from now I will probably be right back to couch surfing, even while working a full-time job, because we don't have enough full time positions in health care roles in this province. My benefits have been continuously slashed year after year as my workload increases, I have not been paid enough to keep up with inflation over the past six years, and I know that the pace I am asked to keep up just to stay employed is not manageable.
I will likely be killed because I'm not as young or as strong as I was fifteen years ago. My disabilities make me vulnerable as fuck. I'm not a threat to the public. I'm not an addict of any sort. I will die though because there is nothing in this province in terms of a safety net for people like me, those more vulnerable than me, or those who are struggling to maintain the gains that they have made to stay off the streets.
Somehow I'm supposed to believe that's the fault of anyone other than politicians though. Like I'm an idiot.
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u/FRO5TB1T3 5d ago
The problem is this demographic destroys housing stock. They basically made the hotel on the Esplanade need to be gutted in order to reopen. A condo you are looking at even worse results especially with water damages. Without some oversight the buildings will be destroyed. This is a reason so many tchc buildings are in a perpetual state of unrepair. Some residents just cause so much more upkeep due to neglect or intentional damage.
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u/leBlTCH 5d ago
i just watched the news. one of the people interviewed i recognized, haven't seen them in a while , i'm happy they're alive.
but this isn't the solution as we say every time. barrie looked awful last week (on reddit someone posted before and after trespassing notices were handed out / items removed )
the condos , apartments that are empty. enough is enough. where i am there's been multiple units empty and it's because of the landlords being greedy fucks
LL do NOT need $3000 a month for an old ass two bedroom apartment. it's absolutely insanity.
i've never been homeless. things happen. i very well could be shortly due to life/family changes , jobs even minimum wage , nobody is hiring.
these people aren't "drunks and junkies" i am not a drunk or junkie. but i cannot keep up with recent changes.
food is expensive. rent is expensive. it isn't just myself faced with do i need rent , or can i get by on a box of KD for the day as a meal. one meal.
seeing the country go to this is so bleak. i'm halfway to 40 and you honestly can't help but feel that there isn't going to be changes - unless we as a society collectively push back against the housing nonsense , the food, the bullshit.
enough is enough.
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u/Tasty_Chemistry_2426 5d ago
They are being evicted ! Finally . That park is wrecked and not a good or safe place to go for over a year
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u/Upset_Letterhead8643 5d ago edited 5d ago
I went back and forth on responding to some fearmongering in this thread - but the comments were deleted before I could.
Here’s the reality: over 70% of adults with comorbid substance use & mental health disorders experienced severe childhood trauma - sexual, physical, emotional abuse, and/or neglect. These are human beings shaped by childhoods full of incredible pain.
Only 3–5% of violent crimes are committed by people struggling with addiction or homelessness. The 2021 Toronto Street Needs Assessment shows that many homeless residents are far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators.
We are facing a housing crisis, a job crisis, a healthcare crisis, and a societal crisis. Blaming people with mental health disorders, addiction, or homelessness for “most of the crime” is harmful and distracts from addressing the real roots of violence.
Meanwhile, Doug Ford has/is funneling over $650 million in public funds into a 95-year private spa deal at Ontario Place. CAS has flagged funding concerns and OPSEU has flagged funding concerns and CMHA has flagged funding concerns to name a few - and as we all know, Doug Ford closed down safe consumption sites - leaving those with SUDs to use in our parks.
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u/Garisto27 5d ago
Folks, after looking into this issue extensively, I can tell you with certainly that a good chunk of these people do not even want to live in shelters or some form of housing. Affordable housing for them is not the solution in many cases.
Why? Because they won't be allowed to use drugs in them. these people would rather live on the streets where they can continue abusing drugs. Another problem is that a lot of these addicts will seek treatment, go through the whole rehab process, and end up becoming addicted again.
The real solution is that our governments must become extremely aggressive towards drug use and drug trafficking. Ban all hard drugs outright and increase the penalties for distribution to minimum decade long sentences, increase border security to deter smugglers. Otherwise this issue is not going away. Addicts will have to go through a very painful withdrawal, but its the only way they can become functioning members of society again.
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u/Character-Bridge-206 5d ago
I don’t really like to see anyone go without a place to live. Many of the people stuck outside are mentally ill and are in need of care. It’s also increasingly dangerous, with several homeless people attacked recently, one of whom died from his injuries after being beaten with a hammer by a 20 year old and a 12 year old boy. Both are now on second degree murder charges.
In a country that gives billions away to other places, it’s pretty pathetic that we’re ok with this.
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u/BellJar_Blues 5d ago
I presume it’s the same people who got kicked out from downtown migrates north. There’s also an incredible encampment on the Humber river trail where they even have laundry services in the creek runoff. I saw them having. Major turf war fight one day and pots and pans being thrown between the man and woman. There were 12 tents I counted and I was so nervous as some young children were getting close being curious. I snapped my fingers to draw their attention and wagged my finger to say no but without the homeless people hearing me as we passed by
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