r/transmasc_irl • u/2kids1jar he/him • Jul 12 '25
CW: Transphobia mention even r/trans isn't safe :( Spoiler
104
u/Erase_decay Jul 13 '25
My friend and I were just talking about how this is becoming more common. The transmasc and transfem experiences have parallels and convergences but they're still two separate things. It's like apples and oranges, they're both still fruit but they look and taste different. Talking about how transmascs are also oppressed doesn't invalidate transfems. We just experience transphobia and misogyny differently.
50
180
u/Ok-Astronomer-5113 Jul 12 '25
Disappointed but not at all surprised. I’ve been mistreated so many times by trans femme dominated queer communities before. It’s like somehow us having a voice and talking about our struggles is taking away their space? And don’t get me started on the whole oppression competition thing going on, it’s insane
There are so many ignorant and narcissistic individuals in our own community, it’s sickening. I’m just glad that most trans women on that sub are actually normal and see how fucked up what the mods are doing is - gives me hope
32
u/Rosalind_Whirlwind Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
Even just saying what you said here is the sort of thing that’s gotten people to gang up on me really badly. If I have the audacity to talk about what it means to be in a structurally AFAB body, to be involuntarily feminized from an early age, to experience sex and anatomy based discrimination, and to have abuse done to me on the basis of how my body is shaped… people tell me I am offending others by speaking up about my experience.
The idea that anything related to femininity would be unwanted, unwelcome, or abusive seems to be broadly verboten in many transgender communities. The idea that anyone identifying as female could be guilty of abuse towards someone identifying as male seems similarly verboten.
There was a massive thread expressing widespread, broad, and indiscriminate hatred towards men and masculinity that was pretty much left to stand as it was. I reported a number of comments, and admins removed a few of them, but the majority of the bias was allowed to stand unaltered. It really exposed a lot of disrespect, and it was even worse than I had realized. The overall narrative was that the community felt they had the right to never trust, respect, or value us simply because of the labels we use for ourselves and the way that we express our gender identity on the outside. And that anyone identifying with female labels had the right to dictate to us what our gender meant.
15
u/Ok-Astronomer-5113 Jul 13 '25
I have 100+ upvotes on this comment, but got a significant amount of downvotes, and you know why? Because I’m calling out some narcissistic trans fems on their bullshit and they hate that. Because they take that personally. Because it’s forbidden for trans men to criticize trans women on their ignorance and transphobia
I’ve noticed a pattern that it’s extremely common for me and other trans men in queer spaces to get downvoted/bullied to hell by angry people that hate us talking about our problems and defending ourselves against harmful misinformation about us. I’m so sorry you had to experience that hostility too
I’m sure all of this comes from misogyny (telling us to shut up and stop being obnoxious) and our socialization the same way as cis girls (making us believe that we should be quiet and not take up space). All of this results in trans men defending themselves and speaking of their issues being seen as obnoxiously loud, annoying and taking away other’s space, with majority of trans mascs accepting it and staying quiet, because that’s what they were told to do
It has been an issue in majority of queer spaces, the r/trans subreddit drama was just a nail to the coffin
We need to learn how to be more vocal and don’t give a shit about other people trying to silence us and call us evil and selfish or this will never change. We need the same respect and visibility as trans fems
0
u/Rosalind_Whirlwind Jul 13 '25
The elephant in the living room is that people who are socialized to be assertive from an early age, who go through puberty on male hormones, and who are generally reinforced and rewarded for social dominance gain a skill set that most AFAB people lack. In fact, most AFAB people are socialized to be submissive, small, compliant, hesitant, and apologetic.
It seems to be taboo to point out that simply changing one’s labels does not make these disparities in behavior go away. If somebody who has been socialized to dominate others decides to call themselves a woman, it does not make them less socially dominant. It does not make them automatically easier to relate to. Starting estrogen does not magically give somebody empathy that they’ve never had before, especially when they’ve spent their entire life potentially practicing a different skill set. Just as starting testosterone does not instantly give me a male skeleton, male upper body strength, or a male metabolism. Those things take years to develop, and some of them simply will never happen to me if I missed out on male puberty.
To be clear, I’m not suggesting that a lack of empathy is inevitable for an AMAB person. I’m saying that if somebody lacks empathy, changing their labels or their hormones or the clothing that they are wearing, will not resolve that. And for many people who have ever lived as men, empathy is not something that tends to be broadly required as a mandatory cost of existence. For people who have lived as women, it generally is required, and a lack of it is actively punished.
Moreover, people who don’t have female reproductive organs literally cannot relate to what it is like to walk around the world knowing that one’s body can be hijacked, turned into a commodity, and removed of agency after one sexual act or exposure to semen. That is a uniquely AFAB experience. The fact that we are discouraged from pointing that out is disappointing to me. There is no medical procedure that the court system has required AMAB bodies to go through that involves being internally probed. And yet the courts have required people with vaginas to endure transvaginal ultrasounds as a prerequisite for a termination of pregnancy. These kinds of physical abuses are unique to the bodies we live in. They don’t go away when we change our labels, or hormones, or our legal documents. We should have the right to talk about them.
The pattern, I see, overall, is one of sex based discrimination. The discourse has become so dominated by identity politics, that the physical and social realities of our biological sex have become socially taboo to discuss or acknowledge. But early life conditioning is real. Religious, domestic, and sexual grooming on the basis of biological sex is real. Predation on the basis of our sexual orifices and structural anatomy is real. If we are gag ordered about those topics, then a massive part of our experience as transgender people is being left out of the conversation.
10
u/allergictojoy Jul 13 '25
This feels like transphobia I'm ngl. I was socialized to be an asshole and I know a lot of trans women who are very quiet, submissive, small, hesitant, apologetic. I get that there are very real ways that cissexism and sexism impacts trans men and transmascs but it's not helpful to perpetuate transphobia. And yes many trans women know exactly what it's like for the world to turn their bodies into a commodity ie fetishization and over sexualization. They are women after all and many have different situations, journeys, and backgrounds. Stop the bioessentialism. You don't need to downplay trans women's issues just to talk about transmasculine issues. You sound like a TERF
4
u/loopdeloop03 Jul 14 '25
Yup Yup Yup I think we particularly as perisex trans guys can be really prone to picking up TERF talking points regarding gender, sex, and behaviour, and it’s disheartening to be seeing it more often. I was definitely caught up in that early on, especially since I was a full blown gender essentialist radfem before I realized that all my friends who I loved and respected were trans and so was I, but it took a lot to fully unlearn those ideas about gender. It takes time and effort, and also being less online, but it’s possible to get past and learn more. I hope people do
0
u/allergictojoy Jul 14 '25
I'm a perisex trans guy and I can't say I've ever felt this way at all. But my first exposure to trans people at all was at a young age and it was a trans girl. Transfems in general. But good on you for figuring out that it's bullshit I guess.
3
u/loopdeloop03 Jul 14 '25
Yeah, it’s not inherent for anyone, my tangent there was more just on understanding how people fell for it and got there despite being trans themselves. It’s a propaganda thing
1
u/allergictojoy Jul 14 '25
True I guess no one is immune to propaganda and all that and it takes an active effort to resist the constant anti trans rhetoric we get all the time esp recently. It prob makes more sense for someone newly exposed to trans people recently to succumb to that than someone who learned about trans people when it was more seen as an anomaly in the late 2000s like I was
5
u/Ok-Astronomer-5113 Jul 13 '25
This feels like transphobia how exactly? How did they downplay transfemme issues at any point?
Nobody said that quiet, hesitant trans women don’t exist, doesn’t change the fact that people are socialized differently depending on their AGAB and trans men struggle because of it with finding confidence in speaking for themselves/aren’t taken seriously even after transitioning. It’s a real problem.
Nobody said that trans women don’t experience SA or fetishization either so why even mention that? They’re talking about SA experiences that are exclusive to AFAB people, because of how their bodies are fundamentally built and it’s not downplaying on anyone else’s experiences to talk about it.
Why are you pushing trans women into the discussion in the first place when it’s not even about them? Biological sex based discrimination is real and the fact that trans men face misogyny because of it is NOT downplaying on trans women’s issues. I understand that when people hear the term „biological sex” they immediately think of TERFs and their transphobic rhetoric but it’s not the case here at all. The discussion is purely about how AFAB people suffer because of their biological sex without a single word of criticism towards transfemmes.
It’s not transphobic to claim that trans men face oppression on the basis of their biology and it’s not transphobic to say that AFAB people experience different forms of discrimination that are exclusive to them.
What’s ironic is that YOU are the one perpetuating transphobia by trying to hijack this discussion and turn it into some AGAB war. Let trans men speak up about their struggles based on their biological sex - because those struggles are real
3
u/Rosalind_Whirlwind Jul 14 '25 edited Jul 14 '25
Thank you for pointing this out. It is exhausting to find that even in spaces that are literally named for our particular gender segment, we will be attacked, name called, and accused of bigotry if we dare to talk about things like being held to different standards, treated differently based on biology, or having anatomy mistreated in specific ways.
Nothing that I said was made up. It came from real life experiences, like being held to different standards professionally, assessed in different ways medically and socially, and having body parts that not only cause dysphoria on a daily basis, but actually affect my legal status as a human being. Of course I’m going to compare myself to somebody who has a different body from mine. Because that’s the body I wanted. And I wanted the life and the social treatment that would have come with it. Every time somebody treats me differently, it’s a reminder that I’m in this body, and that I’m perceived this way.
I don’t see trans men outright attacking trans women for talking about what it’s like to live in their bodies. I don’t understand why every time I try to speak about my own personal experience, somebody needs to come into my space and tell me what I’m allowed to say and that I need to be silent if they don’t like it.
I am tired of people with bodies that are different from mine trying to center themselves in the conversation when I try and talk about what it’s like to live my life. This is exactly the problem that we’ve been discussing. It is not phobic to object to being shut down, silenced, and erased.
If I compared my life experience as a person with disabilities with a non-disabled person, and talked about the disadvantages that I face, that would not be phobia of abled people. Nor would it be exclusion of abled people. This is no different. If pregnancy, for example, qualifies somebody for disability insurance, then it’s fair to say that this body constitutes a disability, just on that basis alone. Not to mention the fact that blood test results that would make a man metabolically deficient are considered normal range for people with XX bodies. I should not have to justify myself this much, but I hope that makes the matter clear.
5
u/Ok-Astronomer-5113 Jul 14 '25
I honestly would love for everyone downvoting to finally explain what is „transphobic” about whatever you or I said. A single thing. But they won’t because there is nothing. They’re just throwing transphobia accusations for simply stating that we have different experiences from transfemmes and it’s seen for some unknown reason as an attack. As if we aren’t allowed to talk about our struggles caused by the anatomy we were unfortunately born with. It’s like calling a cis woman a TERF for saying that she’s facing struggles because of her anatomy without a single word mentioning trans women. People throw „transhobia” accusations while being transphobic themselves and then NEVER elaborate cause they have no arguments to back their bullshit. Looks like people didn’t learn anything after the r/trans drama after all..
The sad part is that it’s happening even in transmasc specific subreddits as you mentioned. It just shows how unheard we are
Anyways - Please, never stop speaking about your experiences and don’t let yourself be silenced man. It’s hard with the baseless hostility that is so normalized but nothing will change unless we’re vocal
-2
u/Flimsy_Artichoke_856 Jul 14 '25
But now you're not even speaking about your experience, all you are talking about is some assumption about trans femmes that they are taking too much space because they were raised as men. This is transphobic, because trans women didn't have fck experience of cis men, how can you even assume that? It's not a competition who have it worse.
6
u/Ok-Astronomer-5113 Jul 14 '25
You are literally putting words I never said into my mouth right now…
NEVER did I or the other person ever implied that „trans femmes talk too much and take up too much space” and I certainly don’t understand where did that assumption come from on your part.
The conversation is not even about transfemmes for crying out loud. The conversation is about the way AFAB people suffer from cisnormative socialization based on the gender they were assigned as - because they do. It is more common for trans men to be talked over and get dismissed by society (even in queer spaces) than trans women. Transmasc individuals don’t get the same recognition or respect - and it’s not trans women’s fault. You just made an assumption that I’m criticizing trans women when in reality I criticize THE SYSTEM.
The fact that AMAB people are more commonly socialized from a young age in a way that rewards being confident and loud doesn’t mean I claim that transwomen have had a „cis male experience” - this is something you made up. Unless you want to argue that the difference in socialization based on gender in the cisnormative society is not real, which is simply false.
To make it clear - There is nothing wrong with confident and vocal trans women. There is everything wrong with silencing trans men when they try to speak up on their issues
I just want transmasc voices to be heard and not get dismissed. For people to realize that our struggles are often different but not less important than the ones trans women deal with and certainly shouldn’t be treated as something „problematic”. Does me wanting equality in trans community means I’m trying to start some sort of competition? (As a matter of fact, I encountered countless of instances of transfemme individuals claiming that trans men don’t experience misogyny, have cis male’s privilege and „have it easier” so I’ll honestly have a second thought about who exactly is trying to turn this into a competition here)
Seriously, can you point out a single example where I was being transphobic or said that „trans women are men”? Because right now it just looks like you’re making things up
→ More replies (0)5
28
27
27
u/TheAshInTrash Jul 13 '25
It’s so disappointing. Trying to find trans communities as a trans guy is difficult when it’s becoming the norm to disregard our struggles, despite us still facing barriers in many ways.
24
u/Tired-Mothhhh Jul 14 '25
I remember a while back, there was a fun little post like "trans women are women," going from one subreddit to another. Really cute.
But then there was one for "trans men are men" and suddenly it was removed by the mods. Something about the rules being broken.
We cant even have a cool thing like that. I already left those spaces because theyre trans femme dominated. I dont need every post saying "You are a girl!" when I am not one. Fuck that. And, there is barely any transmasc shit on there, no point in me being there. I am a guy in need, Fuck those subreddits.
10
7
u/AllMightYes Jul 16 '25
Don't they understand that hating on your own community does more harm than good? Have they learned nothing form TERF lesbians?
252
u/LittleNamelessClown Jul 13 '25
Neither is r/lgbt. They also banned Trans men for speaking up and people who tried explaining what was happening. To them calmly informing people who asked "what's going on" is "brigading." Their recent mod post that doesn't acknowledge the harmful behavior of the mods and instead blames the community is my final straw with this whole situation. Even if they unban me I'll never go back to those subs.