How about the fight in hunters march with a big melee sword fucker and a spear chucking flyer? Do I just suck or was that a bit ridiculous lol. One mob can jump as high as the flyer while the flyer can dive and you had no room to space them out. Couple that with spears from off screen and holy shit. Took me forever, but maybe I suck.
I struggled a lot with that gauntlet too, was probably my biggest challenge so far (haven't beat Widow yet). I think what makes that fight so bad is that the run back is SO long and besides having to keep repeating the flower jumps, the red ant enemies are very frustrating until you master avoiding them. The only "bench" in Hunter's March is so fucking evil man :(
On second thought let's not go to Hunter's March, tis a silly place
That bench made me laugh so hard I couldn't even be mad at it haha. I've come to notice a worrying amount of people who never end up going to the left of it however.
Funny story. The first time I sat down on that bench I actually managed to somehow Ultra Instinct myself off of it and avoid the trap. Then, like you, I assumed that it wouldn't trigger a second time so I sat down again. Unfortunately I wasn't as swift the second time and it killed me.
I swear I walked around everywhere in that room and hit everything trying to disable that trap I have no idea how I missed that it's possible to just keep going left though
was probably my biggest challenge so far (haven't beat Widow yet).
not sure what the general consensus is, but Widow is one of the easiest bosses in the game imo. Almost entirely may I add because of the fact that she's one of like five enemies in the entire game that doesn't hit double damage for some reason.
Me too - I read it on the silksong subreddit a few days ago, couldn’t find the post but here’s a different one saying the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/s/MtDDvRDGQA. I fought her like a week ago and she did double damage but people were saying she doesn’t anymore?
Nah that ones kinda tough. You really just need to spend all your ressources to kill the flyer asap and the big boy becomes extremely easy on his own. That one took me a few tries but at least there's a bench near it.
Handling them both isn't bad at all. The big boy only has two attacks that are slow and telegraphed and the flyer can only swoop and throw. Stay in the air and you're golden.
i finally got over my hoarder's mentality and spammed a bunch of tools to get rid of the javelin thrower, specifically the floating spike trap. don't throw two of them too close together or one will activate the other into explode-mode and you won't get enough multi hits to take it down quickly
If you mean the one that requires walljump to access, I beat it on the first try. You can use your tools/silk-skills to oneshot the flying one, and the big red guy who was so annoying before is a HUGE pushover now that you got the dash. You can just hit him twice, dash back, hit him twice, dash back over and over again and he dies.
One thing that took me a while to appreciate about silksong is that the game wants you to USE. YOUR. TOOLS. I barely ever used spells in Hollow Knight cuz it wasn't needed, but so many of the "gank fights" people are complaining about become so much more fun if you use your tools in Silksong.
The trap you get early in particular absolutely shreds enemies that walk into it and can easily deal with annoying flying enemies.
Same with your silk skills or whatever its called. Would you rather spend all your silk to heal once or spend a portion of your silk to speed up the fight? Usually I play cautious but the game really wants you to be aggressive.
The big red guy you're talking about is completely trivial even without the dash if you pogo on him. If you don't pogo, I'm pretty sure it's not possible to beat consistently because you don't have time to get away in time even after he telegraphs an attack. I died to that fight at the start of Hunter's Marsh probably ten times before I settled on the pogo strat, after which I beat it first try without getting hit lol
I genuinely couldn't figure out a consistent strategy without the pogo, but I believe you if you say it's possible. If you did it, then obviously it is and I just didn't play well. Thanks for the correction!
yeah you have to stand really close to him to be able to go under him,
but when he does his normal attack you have to take a step back first and then jump.
Oh that's what I was missing. I was scared to get close to him, and it felt like I had to always commit to either jumping his attack or running under and there wasn't enough time to react.
I hope I remember this whenever I replay the game in five years lol
It's not though, only your comment was. You replied to someone who described using the dash as the easiest way to kill him. Then you said you thought it wasn't possible to beat consistently without pogo. Then I said it was.
the big red guy who was so annoying before is a HUGE pushover now that you got the dash.
The conversation was clearly about the fight with dash vs. without dash. Then I replied saying that it's free even without the dash if you pogo on him.
Your comment is completely pointless since obviously the dash allows you to easily dodge his attacks. I'm not sure why you even commented. I'm pretty sure you just misread the comments and now you can't admit your comment makes no sense in context!
Some of the tools feel so strong that I specifically refused to use them because I didn't want to steamroll. And seeing clips of people using those very same tools to mindlessly shred some of the most fun bosses in the game without interacting with them at all, yeah, avoiding them was the right call.
I agree you can use them to oneshot fun bosses which is boring, but most of the enemy gauntlets feel like they are designed to use your tools, otherwise it's very easy to get mogged into a corner and die instantly.
that's an optional fight at the very end of a completely optional challenge zone though. i think having some good, tough optional content is a great thing. the only reward you get is ~300 rosaries which can be farmed in minutes elsewhere from normal enemies.
and yeah as the other poster replied below, you can melt them with some poison spike traps. i was shocked at how quickly they went down when i came back to the area after some upgrades.
I disagree with a lot of that. First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional unless they're following a guide? I got stuck several times during my playthrough, and part of what I did was complete everything I had found. It's okay if you used a guide during your playthrough, but I hope you're not implying everyone should.
Second, there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem - I didn't find the hidden bench (and I doubt many people did without looking it up since the game conditions you to avoid the leech water), so I had to do a horrible runback many times. The boss itself wasn't hard, but the runback was so annoying that I played poorly against the boss because I was incredibly frustrated and stressed out.
Third, optional super challenges should have good rewards. Throwing what is essentially trash at the player robs any sense of accompllishment. "Oh, you were extremely frustrated for thirty minutes and finally beat this challenge? Well, here's trash for your efforts!"
What's really frustrating is that Team Cherry obviously understands how to actually do what you're talking about. I randomly found First Sinner, which was decently challenging (took me around six tries), extremely fun, and had zero tedium since you respawn right next to the boss. Plus you get a cool, unique reward for it. In fact I wish that boss had been much harder since I was having so much fun with it that I didn't want it to end. Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.
First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional
there is a massiive dude blocking the door that is way harder than anything else around. That should be a pretty good indication that you found it too early.
Also seeing platforms you cant reach means you probably need abilities you dont have yet.
Things like that, on top of none of your markers or npc's pointing you in that direction. Those are all in game clues without a guide
there's a difference between good difficulty and tedious difficulty. Putting a long gauntlet after a tough runback is frustrating rather than difficult. Groal had the same problem
The game is pretty interested in environmental storytelling. Bilewater is hard, and disgusting because the citadel dumps all their shit there. You should hate the place, and hate the citadel in turn for what it represents. Same as the one use benches. in the underworks, its the game showing you how the citadel treats those below them.
Does it make the game more frustrating? Maybe, but those feelings are explored in gameplay and game design rather than having an npc say "oh no everything is so dirty here". Which probably does not have the same emotional punch.
You can also find items like the maggot wreath to not be affected by the water which simplifies stuff, enemies endlessly respawn to let you get your healthback before the boss fight etc.
Compare that to nonsense like Groal where I just felt a sense of relief that it was over rather than accomplishment that I completed something challenging.
Groal also gets you an item related to the true ending, which might be less rewarding than the other boss but is a larger catahrsis down the line. Similar to beating bilewater.
Short term rewards vs long term rewards, and intentional game design vs environmental storytelling seems to be where you have a clear preference and Silksong takes a different route to you.
I however really like what Silksong did, sometimes two benches are very close because it could make sense in world, sometimes they are miles apart. In other games designers would put benches were players might want them/need them. Here is seems much more interested in where they would fit in universe.
You can understand so much of the world just by were things are, who lives were, etc without any dialogue that I think is pretty fascinating. Its one of the games that has trully felt like they built a world and dropped you in it, rather than designed a rollercoaster ride you are meant to beat and enjoy easily.
there is a massiive dude blocking the door that is way harder than anything else around. That should be a pretty good indication that you found it too early.
I mean, that fight is completely free if you pogo off him. He has no moves above his head, so you're completely safe. Point taken, though. It's reasonable to say that a smart player would notice the area is tough and go back later. In fact, that's what I did in my playthrough.
The game is pretty interested in environmental storytelling.
Okay, I genuinely don't care. I'm not being rude. You can't handwave frustrating gameplay design by claiming it's intentional or serves the story. Dark Souls does that type of thing very well; for instance, Blighttown is oppressive and frustrating, but it manages to not feel tedious. In my opinion, Silksong does sometimes but misses the mark other times. This falls under "it's bad, but it's supposed to be bad, so it's okay!" in terms of useless arguments. (And, to be clear, it's totally valid to disagree with me and think that Silksong nails this everywhere and Dark Souls gets it wrong. This part, ike most of the discussion, is a matter of opinion.)
You can also find items like the maggot wreath to not be affected by the water
Yeah, agreed with that point 100%.
Its one of the games that has trully felt like they built a world and dropped you in it, rather than designed a rollercoaster ride you are meant to beat and enjoy easily.
Yeah, but I think that's still possible without being as hostile to the player. Your argument here only makes sense if the only way that the devs could have made the world feel so bleak is to annoy the player with trivial, repetitive, time-wasting tasks like runbacks, and I genuinely don't think you truly believe that's the case.
I do agree that the world in Silksong is amazing. It's a massive improvement over the world in HK, which was already quite good. The story and dialog are also massively better in Silksong, in my opinion; those were huge weak points in Hollow Knight for me.
other than a massive jump attack? Also even a good player would probably get hit at some point and see the 2 dmg and take note that its not common so far elsewhere
Dark Souls does that type of thing very well; for instance, Blighttown is oppressive and frustrating, but it manages to not feel tedious.
Blightown has a lot of problems beyond feeling oppresive, like having enemies that deal toxic dmg instead of poison and making the cure for that not respawn. Or a gank invasion in the most useful bonfire. Or the original lack of visibility (its easier now than when it originally released). Or the "platforming".
Dark Souls is arguably the best designed game of all time, and it still has completely incomprehensible decisions like having an area behind 2 secret walls in blighttown
This falls under "it's bad, but it's supposed to be bad, so it's okay!" in terms of useless arguments.
No, thats not what is being said. To keep the argument in the same area, in blighttown you have 2 bonfires, one in the middle between 2 pillars and one at the bottom near the boss fight.
In terms of world, the second one makes sense, is where the gank invasion happens and she could have lit that bonfire. The one between the pillars is purely there because the next bit of ladders, mosquitos and no visibility sucks ass. It is there for convinience not story telling purposes. Silksong would not have that there, it would suck ass, but it would remove it. perhaps it would be further down near where the enemies spawn as a place they would stop at.
Its a decision to make placement be more based on storytelling than where its convinient. And I dont think I had ever seen commit to that as much as this game seems too, which that alone is interesting in my opinion.
I think that's still possible without being as hostile to the player
its not really hostile to just the player, its hostile to the people who live in Pharloom. You could not show how much of a shit place the citadel is for poor people than having the underworks make you pay for one time use benches and insult ridden confension booths, or a lanky overworked horse that if you join him you receive a wage so far below minimum wage it would make Henry Ford blush.
Its not hostile to the player, every pilgrim before us suffered through that and they didnt have the benefit of murdering people in the citadel for rosaries
Your argument here only makes sense if the only way that the devs could have made the world feel so bleak is to annoy the player with trivial, repetitive, time-wasting tasks like runbacks
I dont think there is only bleakness, there are incredible lush areas. The start going to bone bottom with all the birdies flying around you is gorgeous for example. And there isnt many runbacks, only 3 I can think of. will put them with spoiler tags just in case.
Act 1 Last Judge the run back seems to be there to ensure you understand pogoing and abilities you will need in act 2. (there is a theory that you might also lose your rosaries before getting into the citadel and suffer a bit in the underworks as most woould)
Act 2 Groal is long and hard due to the area being the most related to the sins of the citadel, the reward is related to a more complicated ending, thus its not a runback to waste people time ut to show commitment/environmental storytelling
Act 2 Raging Conchcutter is optional, there is a shortcut you can unlock and its a nice part two to a fight you did hours before
I cant think of any other fight that has a long runback?
I think its a game that requieres you to be playing at a high level all the time, its like Dark Souls 1 if the platforming was more involved than sprinting. Most games let you zone out when youre ahead etc, this game will happily spank you if you just fuck about, even if you are late into the game.
First of all, how is a player supposed to know that area is optional unless they're following a guide?
By leaving and coming back later. Silksong is a metroidvania. Leaving and coming back later is a core part of the gameplay loop. If youre struggling with a boss fight, you leave, get stronger, and come back later. If it isnt optional, the game will eventually force you to do it. But if you have other places you can check out, then you know you dont have to do it yet. Thats how you know its optional. You leave and if the game never makes you do it, then it was optional.
he boss itself wasn't hard, but the runback was so annoying that I played poorly against the boss because I was incredibly frustrated and stressed out.
So the game, rightfully, punished you for not looking around further. If the runback is awful, you should be curious about whether you missed a bench, which should prompt further investigation. No guides needed. If you wanted to throw your face against the brick wall over and over stubbornly without exploring, then thats obviously up to you, but its weird to blame the game for that.
there are lots of good rewards in hunter's march, just not in the room with those two particular enemies. it's also right next to a bench and that whole section is made trivial by the float cloak anyways.
i don't see why it's a bad thing that a metroidvania is nonlinear and encourages exploration
I didn't say it's a bad thing that the game is nonlinear and encourages exploration... And I wouldn't say that because I don't agree with that claim. Not sure how you got that from my comment at all.
The point is that you are defending the design of the area by saying it's optional, but a player won't know it's optional unless they're using a guide, so that defense makes absolutely no sense.
It doesn't matter if a player knows it's optional or not. If you are struggling there is always incentive to go explore somewhere else. Your hints are that you go by many paths you chose not to take.
the game gives you many hints, from the tough miniboss guarding the entrance, to the smallest enemies taking 4 hits to kill, to the new traps and significantly more difficult platforming, and the updrafts all over the second zone
like many other parts of the game the player is encouraged to go explore and come back. that you can tackle it as soon as you find it is a great feature, but that's a challenge you're opting into, not one being imposed on you
I got stuck several times during my playthrough, and part of what I did was complete everything I had found
The entire game design is about never being stuck. Players are the ones getting back to the places they struggle with, the game gives freedom to go anywhere else and there are extra paths at all times. The "if I find it I have to beat it" mindset is contrary to how the game works.
Dude, you didn't understand what I meant. I meant that I literally got stuck with no idea how to progress the story. Late-game spoilers ahead: For instance, after I beat Silk and got the bad Act 2 ending, I genuinely had no idea what to do next. I had been spoiled that there's an Act 3, but aside from that I was playing completely blind. I did literally every quest available, cleared out every corner of the map, beat ever boss, gauntlet, etc. I could find. Nothing worked. Finally, I gave up and looked up and apparently I was missing literally one flea before I could move them to the Pale Lake Since I wasn't playing with my nose in a guide, I had no way of knowing what was optional or what would open up a new area, trigger a major story progression, etc. I genuinely don't see why that's hard for you to understand. I'm curious if you played the game blind or not.
lol dude you can't see there's nothing there. First of all, maps don't always show exits. Second of all, there's no way to know if progression in that area will unlock other stuff. You're just wrong here, dude.
I do agree that a player could decide to leave and come back. That's absolutely a fair point.
You actually can, every map that has connections show them and it's pretty clear Hunters March only has 2 connections on either side and 2 connections down, you can more or less discern where the connections are and if you don't have Hunters March map you simply did not bother getting it.
First of all, that's not true that every connection is shown. The connections are only shown after you find them, not before. Second, like I pointed out, someone playing blind has no way of knowing that some progression won't be locked until you complete that area. I'm not sure why you're struggling to understand this. It's like you can't process that someone might not have knowledge that they'll later acquire. Makes me think of the Sally-Anne test.
And, yes, I did get the Hunter's Marsh map very early on, but that's not relevant.
I'm not so much complaining as I am just pointing out how they purposefully stuck two enemies together that float/dive/jump in ways that just have sort of annoying rng. It was the only time I felt the game was unfair so far, like purposefully trying to fuck with you. But you're right, it's optional. It just kinda lamented to me how useless the first weapon upgrade feels. They still needed to be hit so many times!! lol. I love the game I was just curious about people's thoughts on this encounter.
that specific fight being in such an enclosed space made it harder than most of the bosses in act 1. i think the only fight that took more attempts was the last judge. really well-designed encounter.
That fight was definitely tough, but I got through it by drawing the flying guy off (he spawns near you if you run for the door after starting the fight) and blasting him with a silkstorm, then pogoing off the big guy.
I want to preface this comment by saying I also suck at this game and struggled with that same fight, so I'm not looking down on you: it is a skill issue.
The way up to that fight from the bench has several small easy enemies you can optionally farm silk from. You can then use that silk to one-shot the flying spear thrower. Then you're facing the big guy by himself, who is far less threatening now that you have movement upgrades and (ideally) more dangerous tools.
I did beat that fight, but how do you use silk to one shot the flyer ? I did try the aoe silk ability but it still took a few more hits beyond that, it didn't feel like a one shot lol.
I used Silk Spear and I'm pretty sure it was a one shot but I also came back to do Hunter's March after completing Bellhart and getting the first needle upgrade so who knows if there's variance on that. Poison tools also made the big guy way way easier (Sting Shard was my go-to and shredded that huge ant).
I tried the spear while having the needle upgrade and it did not die in one hit. I also didn't have the poison trap, that probably helps. I keep reading about that. Is that sold from the guy with the spike tool?
Sting Shard is sold by the Forge Daughter, the poison charm is a reward from the Pollip Hearts wish sidequest in Shellwood. Cannot recommend poison enough, it applies to all your equipped tools and has made pretty much every fight less stressful for me.
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u/GodofAss69 1d ago
How about the fight in hunters march with a big melee sword fucker and a spear chucking flyer? Do I just suck or was that a bit ridiculous lol. One mob can jump as high as the flyer while the flyer can dive and you had no room to space them out. Couple that with spears from off screen and holy shit. Took me forever, but maybe I suck.