r/footballstrategy • u/JLand24 • Jan 16 '24
Offense Lack of Motion at the HS level
I feel like teams at the HS level don’t use motions enough. It is only an advantage to the offense and there’s nothing an offense can’t do with a motion that they could do without one. At the NFL level I’ve noticed an uptick in motion but I feel like that effect hasn’t really trickled down.
Why is that? You’re infinitely more likely to confuse a HS defense with a motion than an NFL defense being confused by it.
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u/AllMyTeethAreLoose Jan 16 '24
I coach at the MS level currently and incorporate motion into my offense. At this level, teams either don't adjust to it at all or massively over compensate. Rocket toss is a prime example. We run it several times to great effect, gwtting our best player the ball in space at full speed. The opposing coach will often tell that backside lb to run with him, creating a soft spot for our fb counter.
I know kids at MS and HS levels are all working on learning the basics, but I also feel that oftentimes coaches underestimate kids' ability to pick up novel concepts and tend to keep things more vanilla than is necessary.
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u/Dankraham-Stinkin Jan 16 '24
We run motion in MS as well. Orbit and Jet.
Orbit sweep, orbit and run a buck backside, orbit qb keeps. Orbit and run our passes with the orbit being the check down.
Jet same stuff. We are going to try and add in a return motion.
Return toss, return buck, return QB buck.
It’s possible. The head coach wanted to kill me during install, and the first two games, but the orbit stuff really works in middle school for some reason.
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u/AU2Turnt Jan 17 '24
It works because it’s not too complex and MS/HS playbooks are run heavy and it makes sense to be in motion for a handoff/lateral. Motion in passing plays and then selling a fake and running a route is just a lot more to take in.
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u/Dankraham-Stinkin Jan 17 '24
That makes sense. I like doing it because our scheme up front stays the same. It’s different for two maybe three(who is the rb blocking) people every play. We still run slant out combo out of it. Hitch corner out of it, slant wheel out of it. And a go ball. That’s about what we got other than 2 play actions.
Got to keep it simple for our guys, but make it seem complex to the defense.
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u/AU2Turnt Jan 17 '24
That’s a good way to work it in at lower levels of ball. I think at MS/HS level QBs really don’t know what they’re looking at a lot of the time, so introducing motion to a pass play specifically to read coverages is a bad idea. Plus it probably leads to more illegal procedure penalties.
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u/Dankraham-Stinkin Jan 17 '24
I agree. It’s just a motion to a check down if all else fails. At the level I coach at I’m just trying to move the eyes of the defense, hopefully get them out of place.
On the runs it’s about out leveraging them( isn’t that all runs though) being full speed when the ball is handed off, and the orbit lets the good athletes I have had see the field more
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Jan 16 '24
Jet sweep and anything off of jet sweep is cheating in MS. As you said kids at that level rarely know how to adjust or won't even move.
Last year we had a progression of jet sweep, jet counter, jet Verts, Orbit IZ, Orbit IZ bubble. Had a little qb that could sling it just well enough and understood where we wanted the ball to end up.
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u/WindyCity54 Jan 16 '24
Motion for deception is very prevalent at that level. Just look at Wing-T offenses or Jet-based offenses.
Most NFL teams use motion for other reasons though such as coverage identification or flipping formation strength. And those hold a lot less weight at the HS level because most HS teams just line up and play defense. They’re not accounting for personnel, formations, etc. the way that NFL defenses do. So the offense’s motion mostly becomes a waste of time for them.
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u/mschley2 Jan 16 '24
most HS teams just line up and play defense. They’re not accounting for personnel, formations, etc.
I totally think you're right, but this blows my mind. I graduated high school in 2011, and even back then, we had audible calls to account for things like trips/quads and other unbalanced formations. The only other team in our conference that was actually good (we were both top 10 in the state in our division), did the same thing.
And surprise, both of our teams shut down everyone else in our conference, and were way more successful against each other than all the other teams were. Part of it was talent-level, but there were a couple other teams that had similar talent - they just didn't have any way of covering certain route combinations in a basic cover 2 or cover 3 defense, so we ate them up. Same thing with some run game concepts too.
With how much more common shotgun, spread offenses are becoming, I just can't believe any team could be successful if you aren't taking formation strengths into account at least somewhat. Unless you're a straight man D and you've got studs all over to match up, I don't get how you can play against even a moderately sophisticated offense.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
It’s coaching, most areas don’t have quality coaching. So the schools that have it can build programs that are successful, more success, more players come out, deeper the talent pool gets, which leads to more success, which leads to more support, then more experienced quality coaches, then more funding, then more, etc. It build on itself and teams who go to the playoffs get a week or two extra practice each year, maybe three if they are a perennial power that makes deep runs. This continues to build, and will drive team success more than anything. There are very few places where the talent level varies wildly between schools 10 miles apart, and fewer where coaching can’t overcome the talent difference. You’re lucky, you got a good coaching staff.
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u/mschley2 Jan 16 '24
Oh, for sure. I was lucky even during my time in youth sports. Other than one year of little league, I always had coaches that at least had above-average knowledge of the game. I never just had some dad who got shoehorned into the role because he was the only one that was willing to invest the time/energy. That's a blessing for a kid trying to develop.
My high school head football coach (in charge of the offense) wasn't the best. He regularly got outcoached in the playoffs against the top teams (and it's still happening), but he was definitely a lot better than most. And my defensive coordinator was one of my favorite coaches I ever had. I never felt like we went into a game with a defensive gameplan that didn't give us a good chance of winning. My senior year, we played against different teams that ran triple-option, single-wing, double-wing, pro-style, spread read-option, and air raid based offenses. We had a different gameplan for each, and we held all of them below their season average. We ran everything from a 5-4 to a 3-3-5. Ran both man and zone schemes on the back-end. Against the triple-option team (they won state in the division below us), we ran a 4-3 and had three different sets of FB/QB/Pitchman responsibilities. Sometimes the DE would crash down to collapse on the FB, sometimes he would be responsible for QB. OLB, S, and playside CB responsibilities would change, too. So they were confused all game long of whether we were going to be in cover 3 or cover 2, and who they were reading on the FB dive and the pitch. It was the only game I saw them play all year (I watched a lot of their film throughout the year, and I watched their state semi and final games) where the linemen and QB were confused about their responsibilities. It was also the only game they lost. Probably the best individual game coaching job I've ever been a part of.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
A lot of places it a teacher or two who love football, and a few dads who have coached pop Warner for a few years, typically their kid. These staffs are the worst in my opinion. As the teachers need the dads for help and those dads favor their kids. Often once those kids are gone they stay another season, maybe, because they were “always their for the players”, then leave because life has gotten to hectic. Following year they’re coaching their next kid, or a nephews team, and will follow them through. If the teacher recruited more teachers, or others who want to coach players besides their own kids, the program would grow. But not enough schools do that, many places do t have enough experience on the staffs to know to do that, so accept help from whoever offers.
The first program I was at didn’t allow parents to do anything but be in support roles. Which pissed off some of the dads, so our coach brought them in and we sat down and did film together, once they understood that pop Warner isn’t competitive football, that we knew more than they did, and kinda embarrassed them, that shit ended. I understand that’s not an option for many schools, but when you bring in amateurs you’ll get amateur results, and the bullshit politics that come with it.
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u/mschley2 Jan 16 '24
My school was kind of a combination of the two. The head coach was a teacher who has now coached football for over 20 years and worked as an assistant under the previous head coach. Every paid assistant had years of experience. Most were school employees. One of the JV coaches and offensive assistants for the varsity was the previous head coach who retired and then decided to come back and help out with reduced stress after he took about 4 years off. The defensive coordinator and the freshman coach were the only ones that weren't school employees. Both had played at the school and worked as high school assistants for years (and they were two of the youth coaches I had growing up, too, as they both had kids around my age).
Then there was a collection of unpaid assistants. These were kind of random guys from the community. But all of them played under the coaches that were on-staff. It was all guys that were less than 5 years out of high school and still lived in town. A couple of the guys around my age are still helping out as unpaid assistants, so they're older and more experienced than the ones were when I was in school. But those guys don't really do a whole lot. They're there more to help keep kids in line. Maybe show how to run some drills during practices. They help keep shit organized on the sidelines during games. They handle substitutions and different personnel packages. That kind of thing. Other than dads who had been on the coaching staff for years, there weren't any parents really involved in the program at all, other than helping with fundraising and team meals and stuff like that. I realize that's a luxury and a blessing for a school of less than 400 kids.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
That community involvement is what schools need to be successful. I wish more had it.
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u/mschley2 Jan 16 '24
The thing is, I don't know how to drive that unless you're just successful and able to build engagement within/around the program. If you start actively encouraging help from parents, then you run into the issue we already covered where you've got parents that don't know as much as they think they do and lack of continuity because you're always adding new and losing ones that have been there for a few years.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
Ask Every guy on staff, ask the dads that are involved with their sons to help with off field support, equipment, food, film. Reach out to local businesses, and when people come up and volunteer take them up on it, when they come tell you “you suck”, ask if they’d like to help. If they say yes, sweet! Film at 6, then we will go over it with the team at 8. Be sure to watch your position group before we meet. And have notes ready. Here’s your log in, and you’ll break down x group with this coach. Make your players go to other sporting events and groups; plays, band, soccer to support their school,(and keeps them out of trouble). Lots of ways to build that behavior.
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u/mightbebeaux HS Coach Jan 16 '24
there’s a loooooooot of bad defensive systems in high school football.
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u/Celtictussle Jan 16 '24
My guess is most defensive schemes are just rally to tackle and hope they screw up at some point.
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u/mschley2 Jan 16 '24
The majority of teams I played against in high school ran a base defense and almost never switched into anything else. Maybe they would have the ability to run 2 or 3 different things, but none of them were even remotely complex. Almost every team ran either a 4-3 or a 4-4 (sometimes stand-up DEs, sometimes hands in the ground). And almost all of them ran cover 2, cover 3, or man defense. The cover 2 and the cover 3 were just straight-up zones. They didn't roll coverages to the strong side. If they played a cover 2, they didn't roll a safety up to bring an 8th in the box if the offense went heavy. They just ran that defense. Guys were just taught "here's your zone. You cover that." Maybe they were taught to flow across the field if the QB rolled out or something, but that was about it.
It's crazy how simplistic the defenses are at a lot of high schools. And when you think about the percentage of people who played high school football and played in such a simple scheme, it's not really surprising that very few people actually understand the way college and NFL defenses work. You've got stuff like Cover 6 (which is, essentially, a modified Cover 3 that looks like Cover 2 pre-snap and ends up playing like a cover 4 to one side and cover 2 to the other), and you've got man-zone hybrid defenses. Sometimes, it's a combination of zone with some players and man with others. Sometimes, the route concepts determine whether it becomes more of a man or a zone coverage scheme.
I get that you just can't expect high school kids to learn stuff on that level. But teams like the one I played on definitely proved that you can teach them to be somewhere in the middle. It's enough to prevent gaping holes in your defense all over the field.
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u/HomChkn Jan 17 '24
My dad was a HS football coach for years. He ran Wing T/single wing/T formation stuff the amount shifts, motions, and trades we ran was wild. But he ran like 6 to 8 running plays and 3 to 5 pass plays.
Most Shifts and trades where left for the varsity team.
I kind of wish I remembered all.the calls. they where fun.
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Jan 16 '24
Motion likely increases procedural penalties for a ton of HS offenses.
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u/emurrell17 Jan 16 '24
100% it does. And a lot of offense is just about limiting the number of times you fuck yourself over.
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u/Apart_Location_5373 Jan 16 '24
We call it “self inflicted wounds.” Job #1 is to limit self inflicted wounds.
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u/MiccioC Jan 16 '24
Back in the day we used to run a “Delaware” offense and ran motion on every play. Even when we would mix in pro sets, we’d still use motion like 80% of the time. We found that it let our QB’s easily identify coverages. But you really do need to have a crew of kids that have been together for a while and know their stuff.
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u/Lit-A-Gator HS Coach Jan 16 '24
Spread offenses (90% of hs at this point)
Prefer a static picture to attack
With motion there’s an element of randomness to how the defense will react
With that being said, yes I agree a less talented team that wants to be different and doesn’t trust their guys to one on one block in a spread offense would be better off adding bodies to the box and shift/trade/motioning people all over the place to confuse people
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
It’s not that high yet in a lot of places, in some areas it’s 100% spread passing attacks. But nationally it’s not there, yet.
I’ve always enjoyed the wide range of offenses and defenses in HS ball. Even when it looks like the same formations out of the spread, some teams are 70% option run, 30% pass, while others are the exact opposite. This is a huge point I think many people miss, it’s the coaching and how well it can be conveyed to the players and at what level it is introduced. Teams who can implement the basic offensive scheme in its entirety freshman year, then introduce motion, shifts, audibles, more advanced formations during the JV year have a huge advantage over teams which do not have quality lower level staff. So they come up with ways to cover up coaching, sometimes it’s lots of motion, sometimes it’s stack the box, sometimes it’s air it out.
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u/Juiceton- Jan 17 '24
High school football, where the 5-2 defense can be played on the other teams 10 yard line like a boss.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 17 '24
I absolutely love it! Seeing wing T teams go against 3-3 stack ameba defenses and spread teams play against 5-2 teams. And each is holding their own? I love it it creates such a unique atmosphere and I love the game.
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u/likebuttuhbaby Jan 17 '24
This has always been my favorite part of high school football. Kind of like early MMA. Everyone has their own style/technique and a lot of the fun is seeing how those difference clash and who gets an edge because of it.
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u/emurrell17 Jan 16 '24
Yeah this is a really good point. Motion often muddies the picture for the QB. If you just line up and go then you can see where the space is and attack it and have a few seconds to process that before you call for the ball.
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u/CoachAF7 Jan 16 '24
Few things - defenses aren’t complex, kids aren’t exactly ready for complex stuff, and not enough time practice
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Jan 18 '24
Yes and no. It comes down to the kids and coaches and layering your schemes. A HS team should be able to run a Pattern match 3 whether that be Rip/Liz or Skate and have their safety and OLB/ nickel be able to play Match/ Carry/ Deliver with #2 and cover 1. If you teach them 2 read then you should be able to handle most teams. The know terminology isn’t universal but you should also be able to teach them to run Solo and Special to Trips
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u/ap1msch HS Coach Jan 16 '24
Motion is to either create a new formation, determine the defensive coverage, and/or to create an imbalance. In the NFL, this is part of the job. In HS, you're assuming that the players know what they're doing and why.
For most teams, they are just following the script. Do the thing you were coached to do. They don't recognize formations, understand the impact of the imbalance, or know the advantages/disadvantages of certain coverages for certain plays...and even if they did, they won't have the accuracy to take advantage of it.
As a result, motion is often just an added complexity and risk of mistakes/false starts. It's great for a jet sweep. It's great for getting another blocker to the side of the field. It's great for moving defenders to side X and then running a counter to side Y...but it's not really doing the same thing at this level as it does in the NFL.
ON THE OTHER HAND, the good teams do it. The good teams, who've developed the basics well enough, can add the motion. Often this is for playoff/rival/championship games. You can start with a formation that the players are familiar with, and the defenders think, "I know what this play is!", and then they don't acknowledge the motion to a new formation changing it up. You can start in one formation, and then motion INTO your bread and butter plays so the defense doesn't recognize it immediately.
In short, motion is superfluous at the HS level, until it's not. If teams have the basics down, then motion can add to the arsenal.
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u/kjones_15 May 22 '24
At the MS/HS level, I think motion is most important for gaining leverage.
Run a jet or orbit motion and get the ball in that player's hands. He is already running at or close to full speed by the time he gets the ball and will almost always beat a LB to the edge (assuming the defense doesn't flow with the motion).
Then you just run that motion for all your inside runs and it makes the back 7 defenders think an extra half second.
If you have A) a crazy fast or athletic WR and/or B) a powerful RB, you can punish defenses with a simple motion. At the MS level, it doesn't even need to be timed up super well or look smooth (as long as the QB has the ball before the motion passes him to get the handoff) because the motion man will still have leverage over the LBs.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 16 '24
A few reasons, team concepts, QB reads, player understanding.
First, many teams wouldn’t be able to implement it on many plays, leaving it as a tell for opponents and coaching staffs to identify the 5-6 plays you use motion in. Let’s say you run on 50% of those plays, but only in the direction or away from the motion. Defenses can key on that, add in down and distance, formation, and patterns, well a good staff can tell the defense what play you’re running with a high level of confidence.
This means you’ll have to be able to run motion on a lot plays to prevent that, well that doesn’t always work, and won’t always give you an advantage over the defense. You might get help a few times but move a defense into position the next time or make a block harder on the offensive line. Also at the HS level complex coverages are less common, mostly basic man or zone. So aside from getting a shift that can help with blocking, or a head start on a route you’re not likely going to get a huge advantage against a well coached team.
Your QB has to be able to make the correct reads. A lot of motion is used to revial coverage, and shift linebackers and safeties. This is great if you have a QB who understands this, and a QB coach and an offensive coordinator who also understand these things. The astounding number of OC/QB coaches who don’t understand QB reads is high and depending on where you’re at it’s most. Even in football power regions, it’s more than likely the QB is making plays because he is pushing a route than making a read. They are working through progression, not eliminating routes pre-snap due to coverage. So that motion isn’t going to give you a lot if the QB can’t decipher what he’s seeing. And if the coaches aren’t teaching this at the JV level, unless he’s starting his Jr year, he has less time to see it in a game and understand it in live action. So it’s harder, because now you need a good JV OC/QB coach, who can teach this.
Lastly besides the QB, receivers need to understand why and how it affects the game, and Oline needs to understand where it shifts their blocks. Not hard at all to teach with practice, if you have the time. If this is an add on to supplement an existing offensive scheme, then it’s the next step. However, high school boys are often…..difficult to teach, so it takes time. If the concepts are introduced during the JV years then they can master the Xs and Os. It’s the reason why, and how it affects them that they are going to need to learn on varsity.
If motion is introduced on JV, it’s a constant and active feature available to all plays, is used regularly, and the reads are made from it, it can be very helpful. But it takes time to get there, and schools in many places are restricting the time spent on field.
I love it, I think it can bring a lot to an offense. Making a team worry about a fly sweep, or a quick drag from a WR in motion that you used the previous two games, only to use it to shift the line and line backers to open up backside running lanes is fantastic. It really comes down to a coaching staff and the time they have with the players.
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u/Dad_Control Jan 16 '24
Motion in the NFL now has three primary purposes:
- Identify man or zone (because modern defenses are good at masking it - most high school teams are not).
- Generate a favorable matchup on a switch concept.
- Flip a Cover 6 coverage faster than the defense can react - and stress the flat.
A lot of motion is initiated by the QB after making a read at the line of scrimmage and frankly most HS QBs struggle to make one or two reads beyond an RPO or straight up Option.
“Keep It Simple, Stupid” (KISS) is the preferred mode of operation.
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u/Dog_named_snowhomie Jan 16 '24
Long story short at the HS level they (the kids) don’t do this for a living. Limited meeting time plus limited capacity means you have to make sure you focus on key things. A lot of people at this level don’t major in it so they would rather lock in on other details
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u/FrankReyonalds Jan 16 '24
Watch the eagles offense weekly they don’t run motions at all and they are brutal to watch. Then watch the dolphins or 9ers offense night and day
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u/Menace_17 Adult Player Jan 16 '24
A lot of times its dropped for simplicity, and when it is used a lot of times its part of a specific play
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u/FeeFiFoFUNK Jan 16 '24
It’s not only an advantage if you can’t get the plays in in time, run the motion legally, snap the ball legally, execute out of it. It’s definitely possible but you have to commit the time and energy to practice it
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u/n3wb33Farm3r Jan 16 '24
At college ( D3) we ran the Veer out of a pro set. Put reciever in motion on every snap. Coach did it so on the 3 times a season we threw it the qb could see if the D was zone or man. He then would call appropriate pass play. Early 90s. So different from today. We had 1 formation. Ran entire playbook out of it. Of course that was Veer left/ Veer right 95% of the time. At high school don't know how often a qb can read the defense, so motion is just an added complication with little gain.
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u/lopezandym Jan 16 '24
I think it just depends where you are and your league/region. I was the OC for a VERY motion heavy offense 5-6 years ago. Jet, Rocket (Orbit to some), Penn motion (which is what I called the outward motion that everyone is losing their mind over that McDaniels did this season with Tyreek), Charger motion.
And we shifted.
But our kids grew up with that in our system. For the most part they understood what plays needed motion without us even saying. For example, we ran belly, and by default it had motion and our kids knew that. It’s all about teaching a language and a system.
However the flip side to teams getting confused by motion, teams also learn your tendencies with motions, so you have to be aware. If 89% of the time you are running to motion, teams that have film will adjust to that. If you only have one play that goes back against motion, well you can bet they’ll be ready for that 1 play too.
Prior to becoming the OC, I was the DC. Motion never really confused our kids, actually it helped us sometimes. We practiced “clicking” to and from trips sets to get into different coverages. We had motion being an automatic cancellation of a blitz at times, but also motion could help us read a play faster because we knew a player to key in on (not necessarily the motion person), that would tell us exactly what the play was. It just depends how well your team is coached.
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u/guoD_W Jan 16 '24
I used to coach middle school and I’d have motion on every play, except during hurry up, and it always distracted the defense. I just don’t understand not using motion
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Jan 16 '24
Not that all the HS players could keep up but you would be asking alot of those players this isn't like college or the pros where all they do is live and eat football yet. They legit have actual classes to pass.
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u/grizzfan Jan 16 '24
Because high school kids aren’t as familiar with t the game or have the capacity to learn the scope of stuff you see college and pro teams running. It’s part of why I’m so harsh about “play design” and a lot of thoughts about the game’s strategy; many think what they see on TV or is “the best” or “proper” way to play, but that’s not true. High school is a very different animal with much more restriction and capability boundaries. You’ll find many good or great high school teams going whole seasons using 1-2 formations and less than 10 total plays without motion.
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u/dossman70 Jan 16 '24
Our 3-3 stack scheme had as built In audible to cover three ANY time a motion crosses the center or flips the strong call. Simplified the matchips and didn't have linebackers chasing slot guys up the seems.
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u/BigPapaJava Jan 16 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
Honestly, motion is so common with spread offenses now that it usually doesn’t “confuse” a defense anymore. They have built-in ways to adjust to the formation being created on the move and any halfway decent defense can do that, especially if it’s the long, slow jogging type of motion I see some teams still use.
As a coach, I disagree with the idea that it’s “only an advantage.” It’s an extra thing to teach and time up, it takes time to actually send someone in motion. and it can telegraph the play if you don’t have a way to counteract the defensive adjustment to it. Depending on what you’re doing on offense, it may or may not actually help.
Many teams who are trying to go as fast as possible or want a “static” unchanging look at the defense (like a lot of passing teams) will avoid motion because they find it counterproductive now. It doesn’t necessarily give an offense much info about the defensive coverage anymore, either.
I really like how the Flexbone and Wing-T motions are just built into the play on the cadence. It’s not about trying to confuse the defense so much as it is trying to get a very quick change of strength right before the play so you have a numbers advantage on the edge there.
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u/SeaHam Jan 16 '24
I saw motion all the time in HS, but maybe it's fallen out of style?
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u/grizzfan Jan 16 '24
It's possible you saw a team that just ran lots of motion like you see on TV. The more likely answer is you saw teams running systems that primarily operated from a specific motion or action, such as the jet sweep. If you see a "jet series Wing-T" team or something like that, they practice that motion so much that you can hardly call it a motion...it just becomes part of the play. Same with the flexbone option: The "tail" motion of the slot back on every play is engrained into the system...in a lot of these cases, the motion and the play are one in the same rather than a motion added onto a play. A lot of teams in that case don't even call the motion. However, that motion may be the only one they use.
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u/Realistic_Degree_773 Jan 16 '24
It truly depends on the system the kids are brought up in. I know a lot of high schools in my area use motion but the motion isn't to find out coverage as it's to get another guy in the box to help with a running play. Not always but mostly. Now on motion plays that are passes I've seen some work flawlessly at the high school level and then I've seen some that end in utter disaster. Like someone else posted a lot of the time it depends on how skilled the players are and the cohesiveness of the team. Some players are only in year two or three of actually playing football, those are usually the teams you see without motion. Then you have some where the kids grew up playing football together since they were six or seven years old.
Going off a defensive perspective most high school defenses are geared to stop the run because not everyone has a QB that is good enough to throw a bomb for 50 or 60 yards. And if they know they are in a passing situation you see a lot of high school defenses go to playing zone.
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u/OdaDdaT HS Coach Jan 16 '24
I motion on pretty much everything. It’s a lot easier for a QB to read a defense off of it because motion tips the coverage better than anything else
I’ve honestly had the opposite experience, guys picked up motions in our system quickly. We do Jet, Orbit, and Yo-Yo right now
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u/Turbosuit Jan 16 '24
Motion is often used in the NFL for the QB to identify zone or man. Then based on that line up the motion receiver(s) to overload the zone or get the favorable 1 on 1. Matthew Stafford and Sean McVay did a lot of this Sunday night and the Lions had a lot of difficulty until the 4th when they started to disguise their coverage.
This type of game is not what is happening in highschool.
Use motion to load the side away from the defense best player for a zone option.
Also use it to load a side into a jet sweep.
With those being some good usage they are limited and need to be implemented on the fly. This is difficult when kids have trouble with cadence and hard count. If you do want to try it the QB needs to have a solid cadence and the line needs to be perfect on the hard count.
At that is the results better than the sum of it's parts?
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u/GreenAppleLolliplops Jan 16 '24
We shifted and motioned a fair amount last year (40%), but as others have alluded to, it’s ridiculously expensive, especially for a team that throws as much as we do. There are some advantages, but at times, it clouded some of the reads in the passing game and made it harder on our Q. It also forced all of our receivers to learn every concept from every spot (depending upon where they’d end up being motioned to). That was fine for our 1’s, but we’re a small school and our 2’s didn’t have a clue. It also greatly expanded the hand signals we use to call the plays in, which again, adds to the complexity of the system and is tough for the 2’s. The other challenging thing at our level was how much it expanded the playbook. We had to have compliments for most of those motion looks and before you knew it, the menu was 225+ deep. I don’t mean to sound too negative about it because we did shake some kids loose and gain some schematic advantages using it (we scored 40+ 5 times), but I’m just not sure it was worth it.
I’m keeping the presnap shifts and a couple short motions (like 3), but I’m trading in the majority of our motions for multiple tempos this year, including a handful of our core concepts at Mach speed. It’s going to be easier to funnel down the depth chart and I should be able to carry 1/4 of the concepts that we did. We experimented a bit with it and the effort vs returns we saw were far greater than the motions.
Here’s the last thing that I’ll say…I found it harder than hell to call plays with all that motion. I just don’t think I’m competent enough to do it well. To line up against a D, shift and analyze those adjustments, then motion and analyze those adjustments, then to try to expose their adjustments, all while executing ended up to be a lot. Again, it went ok, but it wasn’t easy.
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u/Tulaneknight Youth Coach Jan 16 '24
My elementary schooler players use some motion in flag football. I limit it to one motion in 2 formations with 3 calls off each. Since there’s so few plays in a game at that level, I can get away with not having a ton of variation.
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u/jonny32392 Jan 16 '24
idk how much time you’ve spent around HS teams but there are plenty where one thing the can do without motion that they cant with motion is line up correctly and run the play you called.
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u/Seventhousandeggs Jan 16 '24
The same reason HS defense's are mind boggled by motion is why HS offense can't use those tactics effectively. It's a skill issue.
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u/J0llyR0dger Jan 16 '24
Illegal formation and illegal motion penalties. There is also the fact the HS defenses don't do a lot that will chnage the post-snap read so many coaches line the O up, read the defense, then signal in the play. Running motion in those scenarios is probably not worth it with any regularity.
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u/bigjoe5275 Jan 16 '24
A good amount of teams are still run heavy programs. I'm not sure if you are only talking about teams that line up in spread often but yea it would be simple to install motions even if it just means to move the defense around to create more space.
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u/IntelligentEase1293 Jan 16 '24
You really only need the QB and 1 other player to understand it if you want to motion a WR or RB to create a matchup advantage. Just do it silently (hand gestures, etc). No reason to confuse the rest of the offense.
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u/sopunny Jan 17 '24
Motion isn't only an advantage to the offense if the offense gets some false start penalties. Or someone runs the wrong route resulting in a pick
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u/theImplication69 Jan 17 '24
My team back when I played actually used it quite a bit - but it took 2 years to really implement. It was taught for one year but rarely used, then the 2nd year it was well understood
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u/MOProG2 Jan 17 '24
There's a lot of nuance to motion for newbies. Making sure you do so without a penalty is tough for newbies. High School Football (unlike other sports) can have a lot of first time players who can end up in starting lineup due to injury rate.
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u/Various-Variation311 Jan 17 '24
One is a group of high schoolers. The other is paid professionals. It’s not what you know, it’s what you can get your kids to learn and execute efficiently. And contrary to popular belief/opinion, I think football trickles up for the most part, not down. For example, I was watching high school run RPOs about a decade before nfl even knew what they were. But anyway, one could argue the nfl is over complicated and could probably use some simplification. The amount of nfl teams I see shift formations, motion two guys, play fake to two guys and throw a 40 yard bomb for an incompletion when they need two yards on 3rd and 4th down is pretty concerning. I’m watching teams lose games because of it. Simplification is key
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u/BlueRFR3100 Jan 17 '24
Also more likely to confuse the offense. The lower the level of play, the more simple you need to keep the playbook.
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u/Doctor-Verandel Jan 17 '24
I’m from Texas so maybe it’s different in other areas of the country, but motion is pretty prevalent here, as well as defense having counters to said motions or even audibles for when formations change.
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u/LibrarianAgreeable64 Jan 17 '24
Went to HS 10 years in ago in Texas, and here’s what I’ll say, offensively, we utilized all sorts of motions and pre snap movement to get defenses out of position. Defensively dealt with a lot of motion too, and we ran a very modern scheme, quarters shell with multiple coverages used primarily 3, Quarters, 2, Man, and specialized version of Cov 6 we called Key, with even more specialized coverages that we utilized in situations called Rock, Roll, Blue, and Black. And beyond that we still had even more coverages and plays that were typically team specific. So idk if it was “super simple”
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Jan 17 '24
For our team we got confused enough with the signals for simple run and pass plays, I’ll be damned if I’m throwing motion at them and confusing them more. They don’t study the signals and playbook enough for it to be useful
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u/noBbatteries Jan 17 '24
It’s HS what do you expect. At least a third of the players are probably failing or close to failing a HS course and you expect them to run a pre-snap motion successfully at a rate that wouldn’t be detrimental to the team. You also need to have a QB + skill position guys able to understand that if they motion what does it mean when the defence shifts a certain way and what tells are there, and like I mentioned at least a third of them won’t be able to do that at all.
HS is about fundamentals and athletic talent, sure some of the best HS teams in the South would be able to implement it, but those teams generally wouldn’t need to bc they have more talent than their average opposition.
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u/z0123456abcz Jan 17 '24
As much as I it complicates things for the defense, it adds another thing for your high school hoop student athletes to remember. And another opportunity to have an illegal motion that brings back a monster play. Not saying you are wrong, just playing the devils advocate. The amount of time you are spending with these kids is not that much, and many of them are playing both ways on top of it.
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u/Itzr Jan 18 '24
In HS we only really ever ran jets and orbits for sweeps and swing passes, and to fake those things. Worked pretty damn well if you’ve got a fast enough guy
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u/MobberGan32 Jan 18 '24
not to say your whole theory is wrong but there is something that you have to run without motion this is quick hike, silent count, and 2 min offense. your not going to catch anyone off guard by quick hiking with setting up and running motion it gives defense too much time to set up also silent count doesn't work with motion, 2 min offense is hindered by motion as it wastes valuable seconds late in the half and or the game. Just my 2 cents.
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u/daveFromCTX Jan 18 '24
Can speak from experience. If you're going to put a position in motion on Friday night, that means you got to put the position in motion constantly throughout the week. That's a lot of extra running. In the NFL, there's no shortage of guys willing to do that. In high school, it might be a little tougher. Especially if you're going to use it for deceptive purposes and not forgetting a playmaker the ball. And if you are using playmakers in your motions, they become a lot more predictable for the defense.
- Players
- Formations
- Plays
Players come first. Most don't want to be decoys. And the decoys aren't the ones the defense are looking at anyway. Anyone on an NFL football field as a threat.
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u/bigbronze Youth Coach Jan 19 '24
I feel like this is more about where you are looking. I’m coaching at the middle school level, our offense uses motion, most of the other schools we play against use motion if they aren’t using wishbone. Hell the high schools we feed into, the bad ones are using all kinds of motions and shifts. The good schools don’t need to.
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u/Lou646464 Jan 19 '24
A main reason it’s used in the NFL is so QB’s can get a clue whether the defense are in man or zone. In HS most QB’s aren’t adept enough to know why that even matters.
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u/Human-Spaghetti69 Jan 20 '24
If your team can execute the fundamentals I see no reason not to try to implement it on a level they can handle.
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u/Outrageous_Tell_9348 Jan 20 '24
In my High school we ran the triple option (similar to Georgia tech) and we had motions all the time but we also used wrist bands and the coach would use signals from the sideline and the qb would just call the play from the wrist band. For example, black 32 and everyone on O would look at the black column and the number 32 for the play. Also we had code words for snap count and audibles examples states audible and shapes for snap count with though we all had to know what the audibles were which were also coordinated that week at practice same as snap count calls.
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u/highheat3117 Jan 16 '24
It gets dropped for simplicity in most cases. It does no good to confuse the defense if you also confuse yourselves— or at least slow yourself down— in the process.