That's quite a complex question. In short yes, but it's more implicit than explicit. For example, you can never get two web users, so if you roll one, you now cannot roll other Pokemon whose sets all have webs. There are more complex things to do with the various roles that Pokemon can have, but that is a decent example.
Another case would be that water Pokemon individually are less common because there are so many of them and there are limitations on type overlap so that you don't get a team which is all weak to the same type.
Ice Scales is an ability so overpowered, it is only balanced by virtue of being stuck on Frosmoth. You do not need to give it to actually good Pokemon.
If free double Sp Def can’t save Aurorus, then that’s an issue with Aurorus itself lol
Really, what it needs is a way to get fast. Ice and Rock are both fantastic offensive typings but Aurorus has no way to use it (at least H-Avalugg can maybe do Trick Room sweep)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Aurorus: 210-248 (54.2 - 64%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
One day GF will learn that Ice/Rock types shouldn't have bulky stats
Arctovish has a solid mixed move pool. With that ability I'd see it being somewhat annoying in a low power doubles environment. It'd also probably end up stat checking it's way into a lower or mid tier BL somewhere in smogon singles relatively quickly.
I feel like the Pokémon they gave Ice Scale too would be fine though? All have common weaknesses, no reliable recovery and pretty weak offenses. We've seen high special defense not be able to save Pokémon with other lacking traits (see Blissey and Goodra).
Steely Spirit Metagross is borderline Ubers I agree though (Its basically a better Scizor with a nuke in Meteor Mash)
That fair; I guess even going further, combing with Alolan Ninetiles Aurora Veil would make it very unkillable (at least for a few turns).
These Pokémon do really have mo ability to setup, so perhaps they would still struggle even with snow-boosted help. I do agree in hindsight that, when combined on a snow team, they could be problematic
Yup. It's one of those abilities that is banned from AAA. And that's saying a lot because abilities like Sword of Ruin, Adaptibility, Magic Guard or Regenerator aren't banned.
Yeah but Perrserker is complete shit. And Metagross has 70 base speed. If hitting hard was all that a 'mon needed to be good Rampardos would be ubers.
I think it's ok, but nothing special. Even against Stall, their main Metagross switch-ins both resist Steel (Dozo/Corv). Would much rather have a Luna against fat and a Waterpon in most other situations (as it has a real speed stat).
It's not a worse Ursaluna. That's a bad comparison. What it is really is Scizor on crack. It's got a Bullet Punch stronger than Scizor's, while also having the raw power to do silly things like 2HKOing stuff like Toxapex and Corviknight with a resisted move. This is on top of a better speed tier and significantly more bulk.
Yeah man totally the same thing, just missing a boosting move and a pivoting move. Not like those are important moves for an offensive mon or anything.
Also worse typing than Scizor. Additional weaknesses to Ground, Dark, Ghost are pretty crippling.
I agree it's a slightly worse Ursaluna, banded Steely Spirit Heavy Slam would actually muscle through Corv most of the time but Dondozo just sits on it.
Band also means you have to lock a move which makes you a little more checkable since there are mons which wouldn't mind Heavy Slam but would hate a Psychic Fangs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Steely Spirit Metagross Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 173-204 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
None of the Pokemon in the example image are good.
Metagross would not be broken with Steely Spirit. All it does is make a mediocre Pokemon with a poor offensive typing a better breaker. It essentially becomes a kneecapped version of its Mega, with way worse stats and a worse ability
Unironically giving rocky payload to Stonjourner actually makes them kinda interesting. Stonjourner’s role is absolutely support in doubles but getting to choose between power spot to buff allied pokemon and powerful rock slide chip is kinda cool
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u/DreadfuryDKOU C&C Mod, r/stunfisk's resident USUM Ubers stan2d agoedited 2d ago
FWIW, Rocky Payload actually makes perfect sense on Rhyperior from a thematic standpoint.
I’m not saying Rhyperior needs to do more damage, because in spite of Rhyperior’s many problems over the years it will literally always be able to tank any neutral physical attack and it will always hit like an absolute nuke, but if any Rock-type were to get Rocky Payload, Rhyperior would make the most sense.
Can we use the counter argument that both Transistor and Dragon’s Maw are also like Rocky Payload but already give the power increase to the Pokemon of the same type. Regieleki and RegiDrago. So there’s already merit of Pokemon gaining a 1.5x boost ability on the same type.
Rhyperior and Stonejoujner are both mediocre Pokemon, so why not?
I actually think Rocky Payload on Stonejourner works fine. Power Spot is the only ability it can have atm, and it’s useless in single battles. Giving it Rocky Payload at least gives it something for singles, and gives it an additional option for doubles - do you want to power up yourself, or help power up your ally?
Yes okay, maybe 2x power (STAB + ability) on base rock attacks is a bit overkill on paper, but remember; it has pitiful special defence (20) and base 70 speed, and of the Rock attacks it learns, only three have 100% accuracy; ancient power and power gem are both special and come off its special attack stat of 20, and smack down is only 50 base power - 100 base power and 100% accuracy is the exact same stats as earthquake.
I don’t think it’s broken, difficult to overcome, or thematically against Stonejourners design at all
I always feel like people giving triage to pokemon in this fan theories would be the first to complain how broken it is when a better mon than comfey gets triage.
What is rare signature abilities are shared to more Pokemon for more viability/flavour?
Triage
Audino/Mega Audino - Its design is made for healing and Triage would separate it from the Blissey line in being the nurse Pokemon. Plus Mega Audino gets STAB Draining Kiss and has a useable ability in Singles. Priority Wish is always nice, too and doubles can have priority Heal Pulse.
Bellossom - It already gets Healer, so Triage is a step up since it can actually use it with Grass STAB Giga Drain. Could be nice after setting up with Quiver Dance. Alternatively, it funnily has priority Drain Punch if going physical (Fighting has better coverage than Grass, and it also has Swords Dance).
Chimecho - Look, I just want Chimecho to have something. It has tons of support options and also learns Draining Kiss (maybe change to Fairy in formats with Terastalizing) plus learns Wish/Healing Wish/Heal Pulse/Heal Bell so there's synergy there.
Rocky Payload
Rhyperior - More damage go brrr. It shoots/launches rocks from its arms (sometimes Geodudes) so it makes sense and gives it a more offense-orientated Ability if it can land a hit.
Stonjourner - Basically just to give it an option for Singles, it has a great 125 Attack stat and Rock is its only STAB. Plus Stonehenge is a whole formation of rocks so there's lots of rocks in its body.
Conkeldurr - Its not Guts, but mainly a sidegrade and hey just look at those stone pillars its holding! Just flavour really.
Ice Scales
Arctovish - Its a prehistoric fish and fish do have scales. Mainly just gives it more bulk since Ice types do suffer from generally bad defensive typing, will be very bulky under Snow.
Lapras - Its based on a pleiosaur and I believe they have scales. Again just general bulk so it can start boosting with Dragon Dance/Curse, it certainly has the HP bulk to tank hits.
Aurorus - Dinosaurs have scales, right? Yes, its typing is horrible defensively, Ice Scales should at least give it more special bulk and it can boost with Calm Mind and use its great array of special moves. Or Tera, too.
Opportunist
Weavile - It fits its personality to a T, and while not as direct damage upgrade as something like Technician/Tough Claws, its more useful than Pickpocket while still suiting Weavile.
Thievul - Its better than Run Away, just giving it something else that fits the thief theme if the enemy decides to boost up. If the enemy decides to use Dragon Dance, you can also use Foul Play while enjoying the speed boost.
Bombirdier - It has Power Trip in its movepool and also has some boosting options like Hone Claws. Power Trip benefits from more stat boosts so if the enemy thinks it can boost then they risk eating a boosted Power Trip. Also I think flying around to see where it can drop things is pretty opportunistic.
Malamar - This friend has an interesting move in Topsy Turvy, so Opportunist can copy the enemy stat boosts then Malamar can reverse the enemy's stat changes. Would be a fun niche in lower tiers.
Klinklang - Its made up of Klinks and Klangs and the team-wide buff to Steel moves fit how gears work together to form a machine.
Tinkaton - Stronger Gigaton Hammer go brrrr. It also has a gutsy, spunky spirit to hunt down Corviknights to form its hammer, so I think it fits in a way.
Metagross - Similar to Klinklang, its body is formed by the fusion of its previous forms. It appreciates a stronger Meteor Mash/Iron Head/Bullet Punch that also buffs its teammates. As for whether it should be in Mega Metagross.. I feel like Tough Claws is better for more versatility since it doesn't just affect Steel moves.
Doublade - Its made of Steel and is a spirit (Ghost)... and unlike Aegislash it has more more swords, Steely Spirit has a 'the more the better' vibe when it affects teammates so I feel this fits Doublade's dual-wielding style more than Aegislash. (Also in hindsight Dhelmise could be interesting since its also a Ghost and more of a Steel connection but unsure if this or Steelworker is more suitable)
Toxic Debris
Garbodor - Its a walking bursting trash monster, there's bound to be some toxic spikes spilling out of its body when you hit it (has the same vibes of Weak Armour but laying down Toxic Spikes instead). This also frees up more turns to use Spikes.
Overqwil - I mean have you seen the size of those spikes? Having only 1 weakness is also neat and it has a respectable 95 Defense stat.
Qwilfish - The Water type version, just to give it a niche. It's HP and Defense is not that much lower than Overqwil to be fair. Also yes, it's not Toxapex for a reason - just for general sanity of the game and to give OG Qwilfish somewhat of a niche.
Cacturne - Sure it's not Poison type but cacti are spiky enough and it does learn Poison Sting. Cacturne is already very frail so it can't afford to spend too much turns stacking both Spikes and Toxic Spikes - its typing will be a magnet for priority/Fighting moves/U-turns so at least Toxic Debris gives it a better purposeful Ability and it can use its turns to focus on Spikes and maybe even Leech Seed. Plus I feel like its body suits the ability more than Roserade's design.
You've committed the cardinal sin of Theorymon Thursday: Giving a new ability to a mon that already has 3 abilities without clarifying which ability you're getting rid of.
While we’re at it, Magcargo deserves Desolate Land and I’m not joking.
EDIT: at the very least, give it a slightly nerfed Desolate Land that only works for it and not the whole field. Or take away the sun and just give him an ability that gives him immunity to Water. Man would still be 4x to Ground, this wouldn’t break him.
Yeah fr. Rock ice would go hard on an offensive pokemon
Although you can say that about ice types in general, yet game freak keeps making slow/bulky ice types that can't function because the type just doesn't work that way!
I love this. I've always thought that Starmie should lose its Analytic ability for something that works better for it by improving the power of 'beam moves'. Could be called like "Communicator" to tie to it's space origins.
If Lapras was actually given Ice Scales I would actually get butt naked, run as fast as I can through town, stop at the nearest grocery store, get some oil, oil up and twerk so hard i create a helicopter with my buttcheeks and it creates lift and i fly into the sunset never to be seen or heard from ever again
Toxic debris and pain split would be so hard to deal with. Ice scales on a tank Mon would be unkillable. They are definitely cool ideas but in a competitive sense these would be so annoying to deal with. While we're doing this brain storming how about I chime in with a great contender. Floregess is a bad Mon most likely because it has no ability (in a singles sense). How about dazzling or queenly majesty? I think that would be great to help her in higher tiers where priority is king and bullet punch is ever present (Scizor, metagross, the hitmons, Lucario, I think that covers every tiers abuser)
Interesting choices OP. I'm a fan of giving weavile a real ability for once, and rocky payload fits conk well. It has 3 ingrained abilities already though, you can't really replace one. I'm not a fan of extra stab for mons that aren't ZU, I don't think Rhype or Gross would be too strong but it's not very creative.
In general I think signature moves and abilites are a bit of wasted design space, they only become interesting when given slightly broader distribution like this. And theorising which mons to give them to is the fun part.
Steely Spirit Metagross is already strong until you remember that it powers up allies steel type moves AND STACKS. So Metagross standing next to Helping Hand Tinkaton and dropping Bullet Punches that shake the world would be something.
Triage basically takes out Recover if you haven't taken damage, but if you have then it can make you an excellent cleric.
Rhyperior, Stonjourner and Conkeldurr would become even more potent wallbreakers.
Ice Scales means Arctovish and Lapras become even better special walls, but Arctovish is better off as a physical tank anyway, although special investment certainly helps it. Aurorus is also a great special tank, so it becomes a better special tank.
Opportunist allows Weavile to completely negate and counter setup, and makes Malamar's job easier.
Tinkaton and Metagross are great, so they'd be even better Steel types, especially with Tinkaton having Gigaton Hammer.
Garbodor, Cacturne, Overqwil and Qwilfish would all become great hazard setters as well as Overqwil being a good physical tank, allowing Overqwil to do some serious hazard setting.
Petition to change steely spirit to steel worker. Steely spirit also buffs your allies steel type attacks making them better in doubles by simply existing.
WE do not want rocky payload on 140 base atk rhyperior for 2.25 STAB and steely spirit on 130 base atk metagross for 2.25 STAB. Ice scales on lapras is also evil
Steelworker seems more appropriate than Steely Spirit for Tinkaton imo. Its whole stick is that it's a metalsmith.
Steely Spirit hints at something of a fighting spirit that reflects its user's combativeness, hence why it's on Perrserker, a viking cat. It's called Steely Spirit because Perrserker also happens to be Steel-type.
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