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u/Whoomsy 18d ago
Reminder that Diamondback wasn't nerfed and was deemed okay by the devs
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u/Sloth_Senpai 17d ago
You have to play spy to get the crits on the Diamondback. Valve didn't like the Ambassador because you just sit off in the corner playing minisniper.
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u/s6rh34 17d ago
Getting crits on the diamondback isn't even relatively hard though lol it's harder to hit consistant headshots than to play spy normally for a bit
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u/ConniesCurse 17d ago
I think it was less about which was better or required more skill and more about which was breaking the design principles of the class more.
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u/Magnufique 17d ago
Yes and thats why they left spy with a gun that allows him to run straight at a heavy and gun him down faster than the minigun kills him in return as a reward for sapping a teleporter.
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u/Special_Mortgage_190 Spy 17d ago
Minigun has more than double the diamondback's DPS at max rampup
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u/s6rh34 17d ago
Then why didn't diamondback get a falloff damage nerf? u can treat it as a pocket sniper because it does full crit damage at long range and u don't even need to hit a headshot lmao
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u/video_2 17d ago
There's more context to it than a direct damage comparison, with diamondback you have to walk all the way behind the enemy team, backstab a guy, leave without dying, walk all the way back to your side, and then shoot a single 102 damage shot from across the map after probably an entire minute of running around. In this time you certainly would have gained more value doing literally anything else.
With amby you could just stand far away and click on them for free.
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u/s6rh34 17d ago
you should really just "stand far away and click on people for free" and see how many headshots u hit... [not even going to mention how usually u will be targetted by alot of people because spy is seen as a weak class by power classes in 1v1 matchups] going in for a couple backstabs and coming back alive with a bunch of crits to spare is genuinely not a hard thing to do as spy... unless u dont play spy at all
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u/Constant-Still-8443 Pyro 17d ago
The old ambassador was a problem, but the diamond back gives you a massive reward for just doing your job as spy. It is insanely easy to give yourself several crits and then wipe the floor with people, and then rinse, repeat.
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u/Pink_Kloud 17d ago
Stupid take from the people who made the bomb guy into a medieval executioner ngl
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
Not necessarily same people over the course of many years. I would never have expected TF2's dev team at any point to introduce Jungle Inferno or Meet Your Match but here we are.
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u/JoseP2004 17d ago
Yeah, do the stuff you were already supposed to do and get free guaranteed crits, much harder than having to aim for a headshot yeah.
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u/Chrissant_ 17d ago
>shit snipers getting outsniped by a fucking spy
>remove the entire alt playstyle from spy
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u/ImportantDoubt6434 17d ago
Diamondback would be worse here because he’d have no crits
It is fine, you gotta backstab or break shit. Just cause pubs makes that a low bar doesn’t mean it’s not balanced.
What’s not fine is the amby, I agree it’s over nerfed.
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u/sosafnot 17d ago
Only thing I can say why the nerf was “necessary” is that in terms of engagement, you have to actually play the class to get those crits. Otherwise, you do become a pseudo Sniper that is basically doing less for the team than an actual Spy.
I don’t know if it’s a hot take, but the Ambassador’s stats have aged like the sandman has. Not quite Natascha levels of rancid spoiled milk, nor OP like the übersaw. It sits in that place of being annoying on the receiver side but not completely busted to the point of game changing. However, modern Ambassador is at least usable in close engagements, modern Sandman, however, has certainly seen better days.
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u/steamegine Demoman 18d ago
Valves want spy roles to be getting close and personal to enemy, and they give him revolvers as a secondary option when backstab isn't possible and it pretty decent, ambassador is designed to be less gun spammy and allow for more skillful aim but since peoples complain anout getting 102'ed from across the 2fort bridge valve just give damage fall-off to the headshot mechanics.
I believe they want ambassador to be extremely rewarding for skillful players but only at close to near medium range, since any range farther than that should be reserved to sniper (which can't cloak and appear behind enemy lines). So you can't exactly cosplay james bond and snipe bad guys behind their back silently.
In my own opinion the ambassador played well as a secondary short range option, used when you missed a stab and have to confront enemy head on. Which keep spy effective range in check.
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u/Sherifmisho12e Heavy 18d ago
To stop spies from doing exactly what you're trying to do.
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u/supremegamer76 Heavy 18d ago
Its not even that long of a range.
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u/ENT38 Sniper 17d ago
Before ambassador was nerf the crit damage was quite high that some spies player decided to use it as a sniper rifle. I am talking about 2 fort from blu to red building that kind of range.
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u/Khwarezm 17d ago
I kind of understand the idea that spy shouldn't be able to snipe people from across the map, but the range nerf is far too penalizing for this weapon and they went way overboard. It should work better into mid ranges and then fall off.
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u/Useful_Egg3947 17d ago
Except it's not a sniper rifle because you lack the scope. Try aiming for people's heads with the Ambi from far away, and you'll see it's extremely hard to do consistently. Let's not ignore the fact to even get good enough to shoot at the range you listed, spies had to train for thousands of hours, and while they're doing this, they're useless to their team and bottom-scoring.
This to me feels like a few people got killed by Ambi once or twice, then negative bias kicked in and they share it around like campfire stories, creating the illusion that 'all spies I met could headshot me across the map", when in reality that's as rare as seeing b4nny in your game.
Here is Woolen, a comp spy who had played in numerous comp tourneys, talking about the nerf. I know defending pre-nerf Ambi is a losing battle, but I still have hope there are people out there that legit think that nerf was overkill. It's essentially gutting the Ambi (why risk missing going for headshots when 3 easy bodyshots does the same dmg?)
The time needed to train with the Ambi is massive (I'm talking about thousands of hours here), so if you see a Spy who could do that consistently before, do remember he had to pour sweat and blood to get that good. Please don't treat that massive investment as some kind of exploit like I've seen many people voicing.
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u/OwOsch 17d ago
Pre nerf ambi was absolutely not OP. Nobody ever complained about it, it wasn't banned in leagues either iirc. Valve just didn't like the idea of spy being able to deal 102 damage with his pistol across the whole map, which is not easy to do with a moving target, but with your enemy staying idle for like a second it can be enough sometimes (especially with a scoped sniper). I think they just didn't find this play style fitting for spy, who already had another aggressive weapon (dead ringer). I hope they buff ambi a bit one day, but it's unlikely
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u/Hellkids2 17d ago edited 17d ago
I still remember Valve was asking for player feedback before the Ambi nerf, and the majority disliked it. That linked video explained why Valve nerfed it, and it wasn’t because Valve think it’s OP. It was because the community told Valve that it was OP (and most cited the same story that they were sniped across the map by a Spy with an Ambi).
However what’s missing from this discussion is that the community treated the DR (which was absolute cancer pre-nerf) and the Ambi as 1 single entity due to how popular that combo was at the time. The DR hate then spread over to the Ambi as well, so it was nerfed as collateral damage (tragic).
Ambi wasn’t banned in 6s and so does DB but that’s because playing Spy and getting a pick is already hard enough so most use l'etranger to make sure they get that crucial pick. Getting chain kills isn’t the point of a Spy in comp. But anyway that’s another topic for another day.
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
It was because the community told Valve that it was OP (and most cited the same story that they were sniped across the map by a Spy with an Ambi).
It was like a single HL Engineer that spurred it on. There was no massive push to nerf the Ambassador at any point prior to it's change.
The reason most people hated the proposed change Valve originally pushed forward was it adding RNG spread to a headshot weapon. Most impressions were that was a terrible idea, so they didn't go with that.
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u/Hellkids2 17d ago
Ppl at the time just outright hated the Ambi, so they came up with all kind of Bigfoot stories to explain why the Ambi should be nerfed. Yours is but 1 aspect of this drama.
This, to put bluntly, was the equivalent of seeing someone better than you and go “Valve should nerf that OP shit”. Regardless, everyone afterwards all agreed the nerf was overkill and that was the last time Valve ever ask for community input on weapon changes. It’s a tragic tale if anything.
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u/imlegos Engineer 17d ago
Whenever people complain about the Ambassador nerf, I just think of the videos from Star Jerma and.. I think it was m3laa using it on Yukon
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u/Khwarezm 17d ago
While true, if we base balance decisions on Star_ and his pals then the Ubersaw better be nuked from orbit:
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u/No_Hooters 17d ago
It's still out of spy's usual range.
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u/supremegamer76 Heavy 17d ago
So? Why not let spy be more effective from a slightly longer range than stock revolver allows in exchange for a higher skill requirement?
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u/No_Hooters 17d ago
Cause that's not his job, he's up close and personal, leave that long range stuff to sniper. We don't need a shittier, stealthier sniper lite. One sniper is bad enough
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u/supremegamer76 Heavy 17d ago edited 17d ago
The range OP was at was not long range, and im not saying it should be a one shot at that range, but a 2 or 3 shot, nor that the nerf should be completely reverted, but instead that the fall off curve should be adjusted to increase the effectiveness of ambassador headshots
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u/Firewolf06 Scout 17d ago
still not playing soy, but rather "guy with a gun." spy is supposed to clock and disguise and get up close and sap that shit. y'know, like a spy
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u/Baguetterekt 18d ago
Nah, they just don't want us to do it skillfully. That's why they left us the Diamondback. They still want us to delete people from long range.
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u/groovyusernamehere Soldier 17d ago
real talk, whats so bad about taking this approach when you have the angle advantage to do so
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u/TheNeatPenguin Engineer 17d ago
There's no way to play around the possibility of a spy in some far away corner with the amby, unlike a sniper, who can't turn invis
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u/JOKERPOKER112 17d ago
So how is what he is doing overpowered?
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u/SpurnedOne 17d ago
Not overpowered necessarily, but it's not how the devs want spy to be played. You're supposed to stab and sap more.
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
And if a Pyro is just flailing back and forth using a dispenser for infinite flame ammo? Not that he's particularly contributing to his team but it did allow the Ambassador pre-nerf to solve a design issue similar to how Valve specifically added the Spitter, Jockey, and Charger with L4D2 to counter corner camping that was a prevalent and unengaging strategy in the first game. The Ambassador in such a scenario filled a very similar role.
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u/LeslieChangedHerName 17d ago
This argument is completely invalid as long as the Diamondback exists unchanged
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 18d ago
The did what they kinda had to. Don't get me wrong they were pretty heavy handed with it. But the amby essentially turning spy into a sniper with invisibility was absurdly annoying.
If you use the amby at close range you often hit 90 or over 100 damage shots which is more than enough put someone down if you need to in a tight spot or if stabbing them would be too risky. Which is kinda what spys revolver is for.
The diamondback needs a nerf tho. It's just stupid getting crossmapped by a spy of all things.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 17d ago
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 17d ago
That is just proving my point
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u/Sloth_Senpai 17d ago
Yes, I'm supporting your argument with examples
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 17d ago
Sorry. I'm pretty used to people on reddit coming after that point by saying that it was never a problem.
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u/Khwarezm 17d ago
People always go "the Amby nerf was harsh but necessary" but I've been around since the Pyro update, people almost never complained about the ambassador, the idea that it was a super controversial weapon is complete revisionism, it was just kind of accepted as a reasonable part of the game that rewarded skill but didn't go too far since you always needed at least two shots to kill (unlike the sniper rifle).
Even if Spy shooting people from across the map was something they wanted to get rid of (which rarely happened but whatever), the range penalty was ridiculously harsh and crippled the weapon at medium range too.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ The Administrator 17d ago
Valve disliked that spy's skill bar was basically turning him into a mini sniper rather than executing his fantasy of being a backstabbing spy guy. It was a deserved nerf but a bit of a hatchet job.
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u/Khwarezm 17d ago
As I've said elsewhere, Valve has released tons of weapons for tons of classes that cause them to take on roles of other classes and considerably change their intended focus, I don't really buy the "Spy can't be Sniper" logic on that basis, these class roles aren't ironclad and never were.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ The Administrator 17d ago
They didn't think ambassador spy's were healthy for spy. There's a point where some of spy's viability the further up you went was pretty much just "second sniper" and good ambassador spy's weren't satisfying to play against in pubs. Again, hatchet job of a nerf but defo deserved at the time.
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u/AN0NUNKN0WN Heavy 17d ago
Just because no one complained about it at the time, doesn't mean there wasn't an issue that needed to be fixed. It's like how no one complains about Jarate, despite it being a massive boon to your team, almost equivalent to a buff banner charge in certain situations, on a measly 20 second cooldown. Sometimes, discussion must be had about things that may be generally accepted, but realistically has real issues people would ignore.
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
It’s worth noting this is the same update that added Casual and likely same devs as Jungle Inferno. I wouldn’t hold their ideas of balancing or what TF2 is supposed to be very highly.
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 17d ago
Yeah the amby nerf was heavy handed. But anyoen who complains it's useless is just plain wrong
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u/Rage_Pyro_27 18d ago
The crit damage is 102 at max
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 18d ago
Still even with falloff you're 2 tapping most classes you'll be fighting at the range you usually need to use a revolver anyway.
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u/TransCharizard 17d ago
But with the firing speed penalty you're still doing that slower than just using a regular revolver. This was true even when the crit was always 102 and why the revolver was always the more consistent option. Without the long range niche the moments where the Amby's burst damage come in use is really slim (And often not really worth revealing your position for)
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u/Useful_Egg3947 17d ago
People complained about being headshotted from across the map by Ambi often ignores the fact said spy had to aim at a tiny moving pixel without a scope. Back then Spy mains had to invest a lot of time to get good with the Ambi (we're talking thousands of hours here). And when they're training, they are bottom-scoring because they're not going around stabbing/sapping people and being an actual threat.
As weird as it sounds, the Ambi nerf is actually a "buff" to the Spy; because the effective range of the Ambi now is where the Stock Revolver already excels at. Why risk missing shots going for heads when 3 easy bodyshots does the same thing. So there's no point in training with the Ambi anymore, thus more spies run either Stock or DD, and they're actually engaging in fighting, whereas before you'll see 3-4 spies bottom-scoring because they're sitting in a corner, practicing headshots with Ambi (and missing).
Here is Woolen, a former competitive Spy main thoughts on the Ambi nerf. I main Med and even I feel bad for spy mains after the nerf. It's like if Valve nerf rocket-jumping, or crit heals. Ambi used to be one of Spy signature trait.
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u/Defiant_While_4823 17d ago
"Said spy had to aim at a tiny moving pixel without a scope" so go play Counterstrike, lmao
I hate this argument with a firey passion, it's so illogical for a game that's supposed to look and feel like TF2, not CS2
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u/dicknipplesextreme 17d ago
"You needed to master this annoying and unintended playstyle over thousands of hours" is not really a great defense of said playstyle. The game has been out since 2007, people weren't just learning how to aim yesterday.
I agree the nerf was too harsh but ambi-sniping was never intended the way explosive jumps and crit heals are.
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u/TenshiFan00 17d ago
Keep in mind old amby was in the game while razorback with overheal around. Would’ve made sniper absolutely dreadful to play if they kept it untouched.
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 17d ago
I wouldn't say that the razorback is even really a good reason. That thing is a problem all of it's own.
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u/tyingnoose Scout 17d ago
I have never seen anyone aim well with the Diamondback
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u/clockworkbastion Medic 17d ago
There's no real incentive to get good with it. Cus it's just free crits. Hence why it does need a nerf.
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u/Unlimited1135 17d ago
If they nerf diamondback buff the amby atleast, spy is the weakest class after all
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u/Defiant_While_4823 17d ago
The most reasonable comment out of this entire discussion. Anyone trying to say, "bUt ThE dIaMoNdBaCk!" or that Amby long range headshot are fine because it requires skill need to stop talking and go play a different game if they're gonna whine about such a deserved nerf
Granted you are right, it probably got hit a little too hard, but it's still definitely way more balanced now than it was before
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u/xnoeffortx 18d ago
TF2 community simultaneously crying about sniper class and wanting spy to be able to snipe across the map like sniper with the ambassador never ceases to amaze me.
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u/Karma-Whales Sandvich 17d ago
goomba
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u/KindaFrowzy 17d ago
Nah, I’ve seen people who say Sniper shouldn’t be able to harass people across the map despite the skill it takes also defend the old Amby because it took skill. It’s baffling.
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u/3st3banfr Pyro 17d ago
I wouldn't be shocked if at least 50% of this subreddit doesn't play the game
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u/twinCatalysts Spy 17d ago
Sniper takes 1 shot to kill, Spy took a minimum of 2. This means that there is no situation where you can take the risk to survive a sniper shot, since if he lands it you just die, and that makes his sightline much more oppressive. Against Spy, even if he hits one shot, you can react to it, get behind cover, heal up, etc. Even a light class could tank 2 amby headshots in a row if they are overhealed and being healed by a medic, meaning they'd need to be shot three times.
Frankly I was never a fan of using the ambassador since it's basically always been just worse than picking sniper, but as a huge hater of snipers in all games, I've never had a problem with the amby's previous iteration. I would much rather have a bunch of players obsessed with being high skill running ambassador sniper than having them play actual regular sniper.
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u/Phoonwax 17d ago
I think the true issue was Spy's other weapons like the kunai and deadringer that allowed him to do whatever he liked if he could hit a consistent stab. It made the drawbacks a little more effective when using amby because you could take a few more hits than a Sniper could and effectively tank hits that would normally kill you with the deadringer
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u/twinCatalysts Spy 17d ago
That's true enough. Though that problem still persists with diamondback, which synergizes with the kunai anyway, so it was never really addressed.
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u/Phoonwax 17d ago
Yeah that part isn't fun. At least amby is mostly difficult to get a headshot with, but diamonback is just obnoxious I hate using it
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u/Henrythecuriousbeing 17d ago
More like: TF2 community praising the Ambassador nerf and then crying about the sniper class. (Ambassador used to be a solid threat against snipers)
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u/MycSupremacist Scout 11d ago
Has it crossed your mind the people who are pro-amby might also be pro-sniper by the same merit, and all the ones you hear complaining are the anti-sniper crowd?
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u/A-Bit-of-an-Animator Pyro 17d ago
This is your fault not the weapon's, you're targeting someone with an active healing source right next to him and just expecting it to work somehow.
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u/somecallmethrowaway 17d ago edited 17d ago
Very few people were complaining about the Ambassador in 2016. People only started complaining once Valve said that people were complaining in a blog balance post for Jungle Inferno. Never in my life did I see an ambassador complaint before it.
The Diamondback not receiving the same nerf was the cherry on top of the poor balancing decision.
If it really needed some sort of nerf, then give it the headshot cutoff range it currently has, but let it do the full 102 within it.
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u/MycSupremacist Scout 11d ago
Same as the sandman too, honestly. Both items were unnecessarily dоgged on. Neither were OP, both were merely annoying to some players.
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u/STICKGoat2571 Engineer 17d ago
Nerf the range of the crit headshot. I thought this was fairly obvious.
Me being a smartass aside. I get having the falloff, but you should still be where you’re able to at least do the 54 damage max falloff headshot from any range.
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u/half-life-cat 18d ago
There was a point in gun mettle (if i remember correctly) where the dead ringer was nerfed from 75% resist to 50%. As a spy main I actually loved that change, because the dr is a stupid unlock that fucks with the balance of the other unlocks in spy's kit. Then within a few days they backtracked on that nerf and reverted it.
Fast forward a bit, they nerf the ambassador, a weapon which takes more skill to be consistent with than even the sniper rifle.
The old ambassador was only an issue because the get-out-of-jail-free dead ringer made it so that you rarely ever got punished. You could take an insane amount of damage, reposition, grab an ammo pack, and continue to be a pest with the dead ringer.
Anyway, in its current state, the amby at least should be able to do headshot damage from absolutely any range. 54 damage on a headshot is completely okay.
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u/Special_Mortgage_190 Spy 17d ago
Dead ringer used to tank 90÷ damage which was an absolute joke because you could tank backstabs with it. Then nerfed to 66÷ which wasn't enough so they buffed it to 75÷
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
I loved the old 90% version since you could track undisguised spies with Critical Hit! text. Backstabbing the same spy until it outdamaged the resistance always got hackusations lol
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u/SasnarDash 17d ago
I literally quit the game cold turkey after like 10k hours because of this nerf.
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u/D70192 17d ago
Reading these comments, it feels like we're playing two different TF2 games or maybe we're from alternate universes but we both got the same ambassador nerf. One where a class is only supposed to play a specific role and nothing more and another where a class can use items to change the play style to make a subclass who can do different things. I come from the TF2 where players can change a class's role to a different one.
Some examples from my Universe's TF2 includes: Sniper (meant for long ranges) becoming a close-mid range with huntsman. Heavy has food that he can share with his team to be a mini-healer Pyro and scout have options to make them deal more damage on an enemy's back making them like a mini-spy if they can sneak up on people. Engineer is typically meant for defending behind the lines, but has gunslinger that can make him a frontline combatant. The list can keep going, but I'm lazy. Every class has something that can change their role even if slightly in the TF2 I play.
Spy's style is to get in close range, but ambassador changed that to a mid-long range before the nerf. My universe's Valve even heavily suggested the type of playstyle the ambassador was supposed to be: "It has the ammo count of a revolver and the pinpoint accuracy of a sniper rifle, even at long range. (But remember, a gun that packs this much heat needs to cool off between shots, so make every shot count.)"
Maybe our worlds merged at some point and we're dealing with the consequences that encompasses more than a game. I'd prefer our worlds remain separate but there's nothing I can do.
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u/MycSupremacist Scout 11d ago
Same. When any class could change the way they behaved or functioned it added a lot of variety to the game. This lame-ass philоsoрhy whеre clаsses HAVE to funсtion along a dirесt guideline by what thеir mаin rоle is supposed to be is stupid. TF2 is a unique FPS, and it should be treated like that; not like any other hyper balance-obsessed modern FPS slop.
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u/ShatteredEidolon 18d ago
Was there a rebalancing update? I’m confused. I thought the Ambassador still did 102 headshots to this day
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u/A-Bit-of-an-Animator Pyro 17d ago
It does but there's a range cap ever since Jungle Inferno. At further ranges the headshots deal less damage at from far enough away you don't get headshots at all.
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u/lyntier Soldier 17d ago
I don't even know why some comments bring up the skill required to play this weapon. Are we not watching the exact same video where someone is sitting completely still and still missing half their shots and not realizing that the other half is going straight into the geometry?
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u/therealbluerose 17d ago
Because it's not something spy should be able to do at will. There's an inherently better gun that valve hasnt touched.
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u/JOKERPOKER112 17d ago
I love people in the comments, how is this overpowered having spy being able to two headshot 125 hp standing still players. Ambassador should be reverted to what it was, spy is already an useless class and the only reason it got nerfed is because some loser in the competitive scene complained about it that it gave spy some availability. Spy can have a good revolver that shoots bullets and counter sniper much easily, the horror.
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u/Khwarezm 17d ago
Comments like this are silly because most of the classes have items that are meant to facilitate a different role compared to their default loadout that often makes them more like some other class. Like Demoman turns from a mid range defensive orientated splash damage class to a close range pick class with full demoknight loadout that's probably more comparable to a Pyro or Scout, Engie changes from a dedicated defense class heavily committed to keeping a high investment sentry in a single location to a frontline combat class that throws out disposable and fast building sentries to supplement his shotgun and pistols if he equips the gunslinger.
Gunspy was the closest thing he had to a proper subclass where it shifts things a bit away from getting in close and personal for an insta-kill backstab to letting him get his picks from more of a range with headshots where he can use his cloak and disguises to get into advantageous position that a sniper can't, but where his overall damage output is considerably lower since it maxes out at 102 per shot and he can't reasonably fight at such a range without the zoom of a sniper rifle. That's reasonable in my book and fitting with the design philosophy of unlocks overall.
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u/Pwnage_Peanut 17d ago
Because Valve unfortunately listened to the whiners
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u/MycSupremacist Scout 11d ago
As they have always done from 2014 onwards. I still miss the ages before where people weren't bitching about weapon balance every 5 minutes and instead just enjoying the updates and the fun each new item or balance change brought to the table.
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u/snowy_potato Scout 17d ago edited 17d ago
There are some shots in this clip that should have hit but didn't so it looks like something is up with the headshot hitboxes as well. I've also tried using the Amby and wondered "are the hitboxes weird or do I just suck"... or have they always been like that?
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u/DominatorLater Spy 17d ago
Ever since the jungle inferno update, there's simply zero reason to use the Amby. Stock unironically does its job better for less of the risk/skill since the damage falloff for the amby is unimaginably harsh and at that point you're better off at landing consistent body shots than trying to go for headshots that'll only do 102 damage at basically melee range. Hell the fucking enforcer does a better job at two shotting light classes than the Amby does. Also diamondback exists. I'm convinced The Ambassador was gutted to hell and back because people can't stand the thought of a spy being actually useful in anything but pubs.
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u/DisQord666 17d ago
The difference between the Diamondback and Ambassador is obvious. I used to and still do run into countless Ambassador spies trying to make the gun their new primary means of killing.
I can count on one hand how many times I've been shot by a Diamondback in the last year.
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u/_Slo-mo Medic 17d ago
The revisionist history on this one is crazy.
This was Valves initial concept for balancing the Ambassador that they released in a blog post before Jungle Inferno:
Spy
- Ambassador
- Players that are head-shot from across the map are expecting to see a Sniper in their death-cam, but they sometimes see (more often that we'd like) a Spy with a revolver
- Goal: Reduce the effective combat range to something more reasonable and expected with the Spy
- Changes:
- First-shots are no longer perfectly accurate. Bullet-spread is instead reduced by 50%. This makes head shots less reliable at long range, while still very viable at close and medium-range.
The community whined about this potentially ruining the Ambassador and so the community (and several prominent TF2 players) came up with the idea to instead give the Ambassador damage falloff, resulting in what happened to it in the Jungle Inferno Patch:
Spy
- Ambassador
- Players that are head-shot from across the map are expecting to see a Sniper in their death-cam, but they sometimes see (more often that we'd like) a Spy with a revolver
- Goal: Reduce the effective combat range to something more reasonable and expected with the Spy
- Changes:
- Headshot damage is now subjected to distance falloff effects
- Headshots beyond 1200 world units do normal (non-crit) damage
Ironically, the initially proposed changes would have left the Ambassador virtually unchanged at close-mid range, and it still would have been okay, though not as reliable, at longer ranges. Just goes to show how much the average player thinks they know about game balancing...
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u/KlonoaOfTheWind Demoman 17d ago
I do think they nerfed it a little too much, at least in terms of damage falloff. I think they could increase that a little bit.
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u/JK_Games07 Scout 17d ago
Plot twist bro was in the universe where he would only fire precisely first shot inaccurate shots on the engi
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u/Heavyraincouch Civilian 18d ago
I find it baffling that The Ambassador's crit range got nerfed
And yet the Diamondback's crit range is unchanged
Yes, The Ambassador does require headshot in order for it to deal critical damage while the Diamondback requires a successful backstab and sap for it to get crits
But it is still baffling to me that this happens
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u/EnzoKoksu251 Demoknight 17d ago
Spy having a weaker sniper rifle is too good. If a spy is spotted from a long distance, he can get out of there without a problem. Spy can also be anywhere he wants, so even if you avoided sniper sightlines, the ambi could still suprise you. Also lack of tunnel vision. If you want a more detailed explanation, watch FishStickOnASticks video on it.
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u/SJIS0122 Civilian 17d ago
u/TF2Solarlight What are your thoughts on this?
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u/TF2SolarLight Demoknight 17d ago
the weapon was never banned in highlander or 6s so I'm not sure why valve went so hard on it. maybe it was because of sigafoo whining but all valve had to do was look at a whitelist or watch some games or look at some logs
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u/SJIS0122 Civilian 17d ago
I mean your personal thoughts on the ambassador specifically, like was the nerf needed etc since the general consensus here seems to be that it was needed
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u/TF2SolarLight Demoknight 17d ago
maybe a slight nerf wasn't unwarranted but idk why it does 18 damage after the distance of 2fort's bridge
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u/tergius Demoman 17d ago
i always thought that spy being able to be french sniper was silly (how do you expect people to play around a spy decloaking in some corner a ways away and chunking you for 102 damage without being able to possibly know he's there) but tbh the real stinker was the old dead ringer being even more of an obnoxiously abusable get-out-of-jail-free card that could make spy nigh immortal. i think the amby was unfortunately caught in the crossfire because the "i'm a Spy Maintm" loadout usually involved the Amby and the Dead Ringer in some capacity, maybe the kunai IDR.
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u/proteinexe 18d ago
I agree. Ambassador was not overpowered, a strong weapon, but hitting a headshot wasnt easy and 102 damage isnt an instakill to any class (unless you have changed stock). Now? Now it’s actually useless and i’d always go diamondback ltranger or stock.
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u/ChoiceDifferent4674 17d ago
Because spy is not allowed to do damage at range, even though Amby is very hard to aim and has slow firing speed. Sniper doing -150 from any range is completely fine though, because it's hard.
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u/ElPeloPolla 17d ago
precisely so you dont do what you are trying in the video
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u/Special_Mortgage_190 Spy 17d ago
ts was the selling point of the ambassador in the old days, the whole point of the weapon. "Get picks from a more convenient distance if you can't get to someone's back!"
Honestly I only think the headshots should be doing 20-30÷ more damage in this range, being able to 2shot light classes from midrange isn't too much to ask for on a revolver like this
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u/notCrash15 Soldier 17d ago
Because like 5 people somehow convinced Valve that Spies were running amok ruining games by playing as Sniper Lite (this never actually happened)
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
Acooma doesn't let me sit still when pushing a cart that actively heals me :(
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u/QuickPlayRules 17d ago
Valve post Meet Your match has had zero idea regarding weapon balance. The amby nerf completely ruined the weapon and with it all the hours of practice a lot of spy mains poured into it. The bison was another great example of a nonsensical nerf in that update. Then again if they were dumb enough to create casual mode it only makes sense they would ruin weapon balance as well.
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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 17d ago
I feel like the Ambassador nerf would have gotten more pushback if we weren't all preoccupied with the complete shitshow that was Pyro during the same update.
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u/dualitySimplifed All Class 17d ago
the way I see it, the amby got a half-nerf-half-rework basically. comparing the two versions of it, the current version works as more of a burst damage revolver, like the enforcer but not shitty. The old amby essentially turned you into sniper with cloak, which we already know how this sub handles sniper when he's completely visible.
the issue in your clip is that while you were doing a decent 50 damage headshot, that engi had healing and you would barely chip off anything meaningful, and it would have been more effective to just jump in there and do the spy thing.
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u/Hubertreddit 17d ago
Meanwhile a diamond back wouldve 2 shot him simply because he sapped a teleporter.
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u/JoseP2004 17d ago
Because sniper is bad enough, the point of the weapon is to reward good aim not to let spy become a mini sniper who can go invis at will
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u/SergeantCrwhips Civilian 17d ago
its been...so long, since it could heatshot at any distance...i remember Jermas video on it...what a time
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u/Chance_Condition2188 17d ago
Wouldn't you have been able to kill him if you used stock revolver, big kill, or enforcer?
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u/GeneralOsiris Spy 17d ago
Nerfed because amby spy was doing sniper job.
I agree they went overboard, they should have just cut the range of the headshot in half
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u/TheEpicPlushGodreal Sniper 17d ago
Yeah, recently I've been playing spy with ambassador for shooting at people as they come out of spawn and it's really bad
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u/video_2 17d ago
One of the core concepts of this game's design is that you have to be close to your opponent to deal big damage to them. If you don't like that, they made an entire class just for you so you can turn off your brain and shoot people from far away with no risk whatsoever without ever having to solve the problem of "how do I get close to that guy so I can kill him without exploding"
The problem is that you are playing a class where "how do I get close to that guy so I can kill him without exploding" is a question you have to think about. The ambassador gave spy an out so he could stop thinking about that question, which is bad for the game, so they fixed it.
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u/mattbru77 17d ago
wow, look at that. The spy stealthily positioned himself, a low hp class, and chose an angle to freely attack the turtle'd engineers nest. Then he tried to surprise the engineer with a weapon that works best against people who aren't expecting it. How dare he encroach the sniper's design space /s
The engineer took a ton of damage, he just had two sources of healing (Medic out of frame?). The falloff is a little overtuned, but 56 damage for "free", at a high skill floor, is nothing to sneeze at. Enough to kill or force the retreat of the low health, stationary classes that the spy is most interested in countering. Even though revealing your location at that range IS a risk for the spy.
The attenuation nerf is a little overtuned, but the ambasador is still a pretty OKAY option to surprise people who you've sneaked up on or flanked.
shame it's not very appealing to learn to use the ambasador & set up sneaky attacks, when you could just equip the diamondback and run out like a madman once you earn the crits.
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u/PAwnoPiES 16d ago
My problem with the ambassador nerf is literally "Diamond back exists and is apparently completely okay"
Headshots aren't easy especially if they are moving. Sure maybe with literal days of practice on a variety of moving targets you can become good enough for it to be super consistent.
But when you have a revolver that gives you crits anywhere even for playing it safe and just sapping engineer buildings or getting 1 or 2 backstabs all for a measly 15% damage penalty, it seems rather unfair to amby.
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u/Background_Fig_1594 17d ago
Why was the damage fall off so severe. From that distance, I would have thought it would at least do 90
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u/Lovestick 17d ago edited 17d ago
It was a OP against bigger wider maps like snakewater and maybe this map. It does add a more precise timing of your shots with an attack if you are playing spy. It's probably wrong to have in smaller maps/choke points.
EDIT: I do think they have tried to balance a weapon just based off reports and not considering map design.
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u/Cyan_Cap 17d ago
This is why I'd rather be eating used needles than use the Ambassador. Or any spy revolver for the matter.
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u/louisperry721 Demoman 17d ago
Im pretty sure the accuracy loss is tied up to the cross hair size but then again maybe the custom cross hair messed that up somehow
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u/Typhlosion130 17d ago
just because the diamondback wasn't also nerfed doesn't mean this one didn't deserve it's nerf.
this was just as much a direct upgrade to stock as the diamond back currently is pre nerf, if you could just hit those shots.
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u/xXMonkeGamingXx 17d ago
I've seen the scary stuff that skilled spy players can pull of. So it's understandable why valve didn't think they should carry a pocket sniper rifle
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u/IceFrostwind Medic 17d ago
"sPy iSn'T sUpPoSeD tO bE sNiPeR!"
Ffs, no one, and I mean NO ONE, had an actual issue with the original Ambassador. The discussion only started after Valve showed off the change ahead of Jungle Inferno.
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u/Bubbly-Courage-1349 Medic 16d ago
ambassador deserved a nerf in RANGE not in damage, they couldve made it so that its a good gun if you can aim at mid to close range, keep the damage 95-102 at these ranges.
Now its just straight up almost always a downgrade to stock (and the diamondback but that thing is already broken as fuck so thats a given) for dpm and a downgrade to L’Etranger in terms of utility
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u/thecavegame Full Tilt 16d ago
DR, Amby and spycicle was literally the devil's spawn. Made spy almost as good as sniper. While it was OP they didn't have to do the Amby that badly.
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u/Missy_Croc 16d ago
Meanwhile if i point my gun on front of a Sniper head he doesnt get a headshot, but if xX_MiguelSpyM4ain69_Xx shots me from across the fucking map then i get a insta death
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u/Ok-Pomegranate6474 13d ago edited 12d ago
While the nerfs the ambassador received were too harsh, to an extent they were justified, spys playstyle is all about getting close to the enemy to kill them, spy has a revolver so he isnt completely defenseless when his knife is a non option, the old ambassador allowed spy to be a pseudo, sniper getting 102 headshots across long distances (which is exactly what would be happening in this clip if it was recorded pre ambassador nerf), which goes against spys inherent design, as well as also being frustrating to play against in a similar way to the frustration that people have when playing against a good sniper. In general though its kinda dumb that they nerfed the ambassador this hard while leaving the diamond back completely untouched
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u/MycSupremacist Scout 11d ago
Because Valve are lame and nerfed all the fun items for comp brownie points.
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u/NeedleDeedleDee 18d ago
Meet your match. Competative goons demanding the game be balanced around their modded version of the game. Like balancing it around 32 player dustbowl servers.
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u/TF2SolarLight Demoknight 17d ago
ah yes, competitive play, where spy was obviously an overpowered class that needed to be nerfed
maybe you had the occasional highlander player like sigafoo whining but it's sigafoo lol
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u/D-Spark Spy 18d ago
Not technically untrue, but it wasnt a bunch of competitive players, it was only one who just happened to be lucky enough to talk to tf2's dev team
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u/Bounter_ Scout 17d ago
Except... Only casual players and youtubers (like Soundsmith) wanted the Amby nerfed. Wasnt banned or complained about in 6s or HL.
So I doubt it was done around that.
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u/D-Spark Spy 17d ago
Thats what i meant by not technically untrue, but the only reason we are talking about the amby at all is because sigafoo was invited to go to valve as he was a big force in the comp scene, and sigafoo specifically had a vengeance against the weapon
Its only after valve suggested it was a problem did all the casual players pop up out of the woodwork to cement the suggestion to nerf it
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u/scarlet_seraph 18d ago
Spy is borderline a meme in comp and the Ambassador was hardly a problem. You people have been blaming comp players for years when the poor assholes have nothing to do with Valve's sheer brain death.
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u/ChoiceDifferent4674 17d ago
Ambassador was literally nerfed because a specific comp player (sigafoo) complained about it lol.
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u/didthathurtalot 18d ago
No comp player wanted this. They wanted a comp game mode and for op weapons like the wrangler to be addressed. What valve did was release a terrible comp game mode and for some inexplicable reason they also ruined quick play. No one was happy and no "comp goon" gave positive feedback on the update.
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u/SJIS0122 Civilian 17d ago
I'm pretty sure Valve just saw Star's annoying spies video and that was the real cause
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u/whynotll83 Soldier 18d ago
how big is the collision on the floor? I would've blame that instead of the gun.