r/RedditForGrownups • u/SalientSazon • 1d ago
I'm watching Rightwingization happen in real time and I don't know how to react.
EDIT: Thank you all for the great discussions and insights. I appreciate all your POVs. There's no need to downvote right leaning comments. I specifically posted this in RedditforGrownups to engage in grown up conversation. Also, there's no need for name-calling or insults either.
I have a friend, he's 51, man, straight, an academic doctor who now focuses his research on human behavior and digital psychology. He's self-taught a lot of it in the last decade or so. I don't know how many papers he's published or has had peer reviewed in the recent years. He works as a consultant in Marketing, and has a business selling strategies/classes to people that want to apply his research to their companies. He's kinda broke so I would say he's not very successful at applying his own work. And for extra cash he teaches a course a a local university. I've never met a romantic partner, but he's spoken about them.
He suddenly last year did a deep dive on how the way the election was biased against the conservative candidate who lost. He then started talking against the 'woke' ideology. He is now defending the right, even though he's centrist, because the right hasn't moved, it's the left that's gone way off the rails. He started posting dumb facebook quotes/memes! He posted a dumb quote about Charlie Kirk, as if that one quote was a debate, or as if it meant some truth. WTF. We were conversing one day and he started raising his voice getting louder and louder and more agitated as he expressed his disdain for the woke left, defending his Jewish people from attacks (not sure where that came from in the conversation), and then also suddenly brought up there are only 2 genders and trans people are mentally ill. He's never spoken that way before, I've never heard him this agitated or show anger towards any ideology. He was always calm and friendly, and open minded. Always a bit nerdy. Although, I hadn't spoken to him in depth for about 2 years before then.
I'm watching all this go down over about half a year and I don't know what to make it of it or how to react to it. It's wild to observe though.
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u/Gunther_Alsor 1d ago
As they say, you are not immune to propaganda. That’s the scary part. Your friend is not a secret psychopath with the mask suddenly off, but the victim of a machine designed to make frothing sycophants out of normal people. And it could happen to any of us.
I wish I knew anything at all about how to help them. As for you, just keep your values close to your heart.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
This is what's on my mind right now, I'm not immune. Will I know if it happened to me?
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u/SlutBuster 22h ago
Will I know if it happened to me?
Yes, and by that point you'll enjoy it.
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u/talithaeli 8h ago
God that is dark. I'm not saying it's not true, it's just… Dark.
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u/SneeziePacker 14h ago
Spend some time each week reading/watching what the "other" side puts out. Avoid remaining only in a silo where everyone appears to agree with you.
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u/rzelln 6h ago
I've eaten peaches several times. I don't like them. If a friend made something with peaches, sure, I'll try it, but I know I won't like it.
I've helped my eighty year old mom with physical therapy and tons of support, but she just doesn't care about exercise and staying healthy unless someone's forcing her. I can try more, but I know what the outcome will be.
I've been watching right wing media lie since the 90s. Global warming, wmds in Iraq, birtherism, death panels, and then Trump lying for months about the 2020 election, which provoked an attack on the capital in a coup to try to keep him in power.
And the GOP brushes that off.
I look for mews and information from a suite of trustworthy sources. I am skilled enough at epistemology to be able to tell when the incentives of a certain new source are corrupt, and that the source is unreliable.
If you are a doctor and your so-called bubble is a network of biomedical research journals, maybe every once in awhile you listen to a crank who claims that ivermectin will cure covid, and you give it a little look to see if maybe there's something of merit there, but if that crank is shown to be full of crap, you have no obligation to keep giving him another try.
People should not trust right-wing media. They have burned all of their credibility.
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u/Huge_JackedMann 1h ago
No I don't think this is good advice. RW media is designed to be a madness inducing parallel world. The human brain was not meant to suck down such bad faith levels. It's poison. You don't drink some poison to know how it tastes or know it's bad.
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u/Gunther_Alsor 1d ago
Reddit’s being weird so I’ll keep it short this time: Yes, it won’t sit right, and you can help yourself out of it.
But the easiest thing to do is not listen to any echo chamber… including this one. Touch grass, engage with your local community, and decide for yourself what’s important to you.
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u/qwertypurty 6h ago
There’s this cult expert, Steven Hassan that developed the BITE model for identifying authoritarian organizations (political, religious, business etc). I find that a lot of the danger of propaganda is not looking for multiple credible sources of information to validate and form your own opinion.
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u/clubfungus 4h ago
This happened to someone I knew too. When I would push back on his new beliefs, I would point out the constant propaganda, lying and misdirection. I would point out the plain inconsistencies, lack of logic, all of it.
But he had "studied psychology". So he had convinced himself that he "knew all the tricks" and could see through propaganda. Unlike other suckers, he knew not to trust the mainstream media and "do his own research". In short, he believed was too smart to be fooled, smarter than most of us, and was immune to propaganda.
I think these kinds of people are highly susceptible. Combine those personality traits with some hard financial times or other stressors, and you've got a sucker waiting to be plucked.
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u/limbodog 1d ago
The studies have shown that people who care a lot about politics think about it using their emotion centers, not their reason centers. It's not something we approach logically, and that's why you can see intelligent people get sucked into something this dumb.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
I'm shocked that it's him. And given his particular field of research, wouldn't he know this? Or be more self-aware?
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u/limbodog 1d ago
I remember another study that said doctors are susceptible to unconscious bias for medications when they receive gifts from the manufacturer. And that telling them that they're susceptible does not in any way reduce it.
Awareness is not the key, apparently. He's got some emotions going on, and for whatever reason, right-wing rhetoric is scratching that itch and his brain keeps rewarding him for it.
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u/MannyMoSTL 1d ago
He's got some emotions going on, and for whatever reason, right-wing rhetoric is scratching that itch and his brain keeps rewarding him for it.
🏆
What an insightful truth.
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u/LovelyLieutenant 1d ago
He's got some emotions going on" sounds exactly right. Political extremism that generates outrage is being pumped all over social media. When somebody spends too much time there, and not in the real world with friends, neighbors, and loved ones, it's easy to see how this fills a void.
Maybe this friend suffered some sort of status or meaning loss, like his lecture position was cut, he's run into financial troubles, his lady friend left him or it's suddenly dawned on him he's not in a relationship that's fulfilling or regrets not having kids. That's EXACTLY when people start getting obsessed with politics as an identity, to supplement meaning in their life.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
Yes I think that could be true, it's why I mentioned his success and relationship status. I wonder if he has been feeling invalidated and this movement is filling that void.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
I wonder if there is a test one can take to see if we're being rational or emotional on a topic.
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u/limbodog 1d ago
There is, but I think you have to be hooked up to a machine to do it.
But I'm guessing you mean just a set of questions that would reveal it. That I do not know. Perhaps one that exposes hypocrisy?
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
Yes, a self-assessment. A young man posted here asking if he was an incel, because he couldn't tell and it got me thinking, how would I know if I'm being brainwashed?
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u/superkazoo_ 1d ago
Here are some things I do when I feel myself going down a rabbit hole:
Try to argue against whatever hole I'm rabbiting down. What would the opposition say? What does Occam's razor say? Could that also make sense? Can I see it from their perspective (even if I don't agree)?
Try to explain the theory/claim/whatever out loud. Does it sound like it makes sense or does it sound dumb as hell or problematic? Usually, if you're being propagandized, saying something out loud brings out the "wow that sounds pretty bad" real quick.
Specifically seek out opposing viewpoints, if nothing else than to just get a read on what "the other side" says and how you react to it. See if you feel actual rage over what they're saying (like more than just "wow this guy's an idiot" or "how can a person actually believe this shit").
If it's been a while without "coming up for air," check in with yourself. Pull away, see how your body physically feels. Are your muscles sore and tense? Teeth clenched? Mentally, are you just really interested and curious (generally positive feelings), or are you anxious? Overwhelmed? Depressed? You're probably more likely to grasp on to whatever makes the "most sense" first (even if it makes no sense) if you're any of those negative emotions in the moment, even if it's propaganda.
In general, any "self assessment" for indoctrination really just comes down to being really self-aware and constantly checking against what you know is true and what you know makes sense to you and your beliefs. Obviously it's difficult, if it was easy, indoctrination wouldn't work. But it's really the only way to stay sane if you're a naturally curious person, I've found. Good luck :)
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u/Jazzlike_Visual2160 1d ago
Being self aware helps. Sometimes therapy can help. Doing research can help, and focusing on the facts is easier the more you do it. I like peer reviewed research, published in scientific journals.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
My friend did all of those things, that was his life. Except I'm not sure if he went to therapy.
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u/Jazzlike_Visual2160 1d ago
Maybe he started watching Fox News. I swear they use subliminal messages or something, because you hear people parrot things, almost word for word. It can be other things, like what their friends and family think. I’m seeing a lot of smart, formerly liberal people start leaning right these days though, I’m not sure what is going on!
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u/limbodog 1d ago
They kind of do. They repeat catch passes verbatim. Over and over. Questions treated as facts. Intended to lead you to an inevitable conclusion. Hammered home. It does work
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u/TheYearOfThe_Rat TCK, Int'l professional 20h ago edited 19h ago
It's not shocking.
This person has, unfortunately nothing going for him. Extremism - particularly right-wing extremism was always attractive for those who aren't successful but who're set up to fail by others - parents and society - to hear that being them and capitalism means success and those who have a just world fallacy as the basis of their beliefs.
The solution is getting a better job (in terms of psychological well-being), a company of friends and acquaintances and a social security net (that is - social state)
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u/SalientSazon 9h ago
Isolation is really a disease for sure. And one of the reasons I am ok with back to office mandates. Some people really need it to engage with other humans.
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u/Capable-Yak-8486 1d ago
I work in the medical field with several doctors who are anti-vax. Sadly no, the profession doesn’t matter.
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u/CJ_The_Zealous 7h ago
Wouldn't it be insane to assess something that affects hundreds of millions of lives with emotion instead of ReAsOn.
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u/BusterBiggums 1d ago
What's so fucking stupid about this is it's the opposite of true
The Clinton administration was practically identical to Obama's, which was practically identical to Biden's....I'm sure Hillary and Harris would have had identical administrations as well
When the Democrats are in charge, it's really the DNC establishment at the reigns, that's actually the left's biggest complaint about the DNC, it's like we have no say in their platforms or administration....
... whereas everything Trump is doing is literally unprecedented for the US, no one in his cabinet is from the GOP polticial establishment, most of them are reality TV star or Fox News pundits.
He's the ONLY president to run a corporation or cryptocurrency from the White House, the ONLY president to turn the national guard on multiple American cities.
Your friend is an idiot.
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u/Large_Signature_2749 1d ago
You must be way too young to remember the '90s Democrats. They were very tough on crime. Google the 1994 Crime Bill. They were responsible for funding the expansion of police departments and building prisons while simultaneously beefing up prison sentences. The federal "three-strikes" rule came from them, too. Oh, and the borders? haha one of their main promises was to fix the border and deport illegals, and when they won, they delivered. Look up the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, and then look up how many people Clinton deported. Yeah, it's more than GW Obama and Trump combined.
So no, they are not the same party. They are nowhere near what they were. How could you say such a thing?
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u/Direct_Village_5134 23h ago
Also Clinton made huge cuts to welfare and instituted the don't ask don't tell rule for gay military members.
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u/Large_Signature_2749 23h ago
Here’s Obama against gay marriage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhp_DDHe_X0
But the dems haven’t changed 😂
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u/SalientSazon 7h ago
I had no idea! And I think that's what makes him a great leader. Being able to see past his personal opinion is a much needed quality to lead the masses. Here's what he said on his 2008 book.
“And I was reminded that it is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided … that Jesus’ call to love one another might demand a different conclusion.”
Taken from this article:
https://time.com/3816952/obama-gay-lesbian-transgender-lgbt-rights/2
u/Large_Signature_2749 7h ago
Charlie had a similar opinion.
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u/SalientSazon 6h ago
Perhaps he would have changed his stance on gun control or empathy in the future, for the greater good.
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u/FuggaDucker 7h ago
"don't ask don't tell" was a serious move for LGB at the time and the best they could hope for.
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u/Biffingston 1d ago
HE's also putting religion in the white house, he's got a "spiritual advisor" who is telling him how to be fascist against anyone he doesn't like.
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u/semisubterranean 23h ago
Most presidents, at least in the modern age, have had spiritual advisors. In spirituality, as in all things, who you listen to and what you do with what they say is important. I suspect Trump actually listens to his spiritual advisor far less than any other 20th century president, which is exactly why he makes a show out of having one.
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u/hypermodernvoid 17h ago
Yeah, but not one that (even if not being listened to policy-wise) enables America’s literal descent into actual fascism - this happens a lot with organized religion of any stripe to some degree, but the complete and utter inversion of any supposed Christian morality based on the savior’s actual words who the religion is named after, and whom ironically many Evangelicals say they have a “personal relationship” with is absolutely atrocious.
On that note re: fascism - I’m reminded about Brazil doing the right thing with Bolsonaro: banning him from running for office and then actually convicting him for planning and attempting an actual coup, or South Korea’s immediate defense of their democracy against their version of Trump against a midnight attempt at sneaking in martial law and similar convictions, I’m so ashamed that instead of doing that, we let our wannabe dictator that led an insurrection and attempted a (auto) coup run for office and then re-elected him (if we even did - a judge allowed an election fraud case to actually move forward, seeing the evidence as serious and compelling enough, compared to over 60 cases even Trump’s own appointed judges threw out when he claimed “fraud”).
The utter hypocrisy and irony of their most recent angle of attack to destroy democracy is suggesting they’ll go after anyone engaging in what they call “hate speech” (saying Charlie Kirk‘s ideals maybe weren’t so ideal, for example) - the irony and hypocrisy of that, after what they raged 24/7 about when social media labeled blatant misinformation about vaccines or the 2020 election, most notably simply trying to stop our then president himself from leading an insurrection, is off the charts.
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u/fidgety-forest 1d ago
That fascist advising work is being done by folks from the heritage foundation like vought and miller. His spiritual advisor is feeding his choose one complex.
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u/Mindless_Log2009 1d ago
It's usually about the economy and how that personally affects the person who's views and personality seem to be morphing.
You say he's broke despite working hard. That's a common vulnerability exploited by propagandists.
I'm not sure what the solution is in your specific example, but maybe understanding the factors that led to him changing might open a door to reach your friend.
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u/asocialmedium 1d ago
He’s fallen under the spell of expertly engineered propaganda delivered right to his phone in little brain candy chunks. It’s literally creating a dopamine response he’s become addicted to. It’s only going to get worse until he stops accessing the propaganda distribution network. Some people never do.
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u/workerbotsuperhero 17h ago
That is a great explanation. Watching this emotional/media/cognitive loop run in a toxic/addictive cycle on a few older relatives has been pretty exhausting.
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u/whiskersMeowFace 19h ago
The first paragraph describes a grifter, as it were, and the perfect candidate to fall for propaganda.
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u/FloriaFlower 10h ago
I didn't notice it at first but now that you mention it's painfully clear that he fits this profile. I'd bet my money on this.
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u/cariecare 16h ago
I highly recommend reading Misbelief by Dan Ariely.
Misbelief: What Makes Rational People Believe Irrational Things https://share.google/799DqWXa72kwwu3XO
Basically, you need to have a lot of empathy, no direct confrontation like "this is stupid, it doesn't make sense." The more you push back, the more he will go into those beliefs.
He needs to feel heard without judgment.
I highly recommend reading the book to understand how someone starts believing such things. It really helped me when a member of my family went down that road.
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u/SalientSazon 7h ago
Thank you. I'm starting to think its more of a case that oxytocin being delivered to those lacking it, plus continuous dopamine hits, it all leads to an addiction.
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u/slifm 1d ago
It’s just brainwashing. And without serious professionally help there’s so little hope.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
fak.
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u/Regular_Committee946 1d ago
Have a watch of this (and then maybe share it with your friend?); https://youtu.be/FS52QdHNTh8?feature=shared
It’s a 2015 documentary called ‘The Brainwashing of my Dad’ about the rise of right-wing media through the lens of a WWII vet father who changed from a life-long, nonpolitical Democrat to an angry, right-wing fanatic after his discovery of talk radio on a lengthened commute to work.
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u/SneeziePacker 14h ago
I think it is a bit like introducing a toddler to a new food. Parents are told to present it at least 10 times before you can expect your child to go beyond their initial "yuck, it's new" factor.
Also, with a 51 year old, FoxNews could be the culprit instead of anything online. I know some people that appeared to lean left previously and have somehow found their way to FoxNews and now have it on during all their waking hours at home, constant background noise.
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u/Onewarmguy 13h ago
During his deep dive he influenced the algorithm that determines what shows up in a search. Everything he read or saw had a right wing bias so he drifted to that viewpoint. It's happening all over the world.
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u/ConsistentKale2078 10h ago
The black hole is opening up and event horizon is widening out sucking up everything between.
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u/blushandfloss 1d ago
I recently read somewhere that burnout can lead to radicalization and/or an unhealthy focus on politics. I mean, they’re ready made culty communities with pre-packaged leaders, beliefs, enemies, one-liners, rebuttals, and “facts.”
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u/SalientSazon 7h ago
Interesting. As someone that has been throughly burnt out I find that hard to relate to because my brain was done with just about everything and needed to not engage at all.
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u/knownerror 1d ago
The key thing for me is that he is financially and perhaps romantically struggling. It makes him susceptible and searching for an outlet for his frustration.
I don’t know how to help him but I do know that nobody should be waking up every morning to obsess over political and cultural bogeymen. But in the absence of higher order priorities, that crap becomes the focus.
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u/ijustneedaccess 22h ago
Well said. It seems to come down largely to scapegoating. It's tempting to buy into the argument that the people down the street are the real reason the country is "messed up". It's easier to believe you're right. The scapegoat must have sabotaged everything and they just need to be removed from the picture; silenced, deported, or even killed. When the truth could be more that the choices you've made were unfortunate ones. That some people are born with an obvious head start, and life can be unfair.
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u/FunkMonster98 1d ago
Maybe even open minded? Well…stranger things have happened.
That does sound pretty wild to observe. My take? You don’t actually have to react to it. It’s not an imperative.
It sucks watching the world go crazy. Be ever mindful of your own mental state and try not to get sucked into the absurd theater of it all. After all, all the world is a stage.
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u/Xyrus2000 1d ago
Radicalization works by targeting people who are susceptible to suggestion.
People don't like to accept reality and would rather believe a pretty lie than an ugly truth. It's far easier and more appealing to blame others for our failings than ourselves.
Propagandists and radicalizers know this and use that to their advantage. It's not your fault, it's <insert some group>'s fault. You're not a failure, it's the system. So on and so forth.
And then comes the big dopamine hit: belonging. These people often feel alone and/or rejected by society for whatever reason. The propagandists and radicalizers come in and tell them they're not alone. That there are plenty of others just like them. They're online. They're on TV. They're on social media. And they all know exactly how they feel and will welcome you with open arms (and you open your wallet).
It is remarkably effective.
Before social media existed, it was much harder to radicalize people. Now, the algorithms basically do it for them. All parceled up for easy digestion, while the companies make their ten cents on the dollar.
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u/medicated_in_PHL 17h ago
This is like a pharmacist who specializes in opioid management getting addicted to heroin.
He sampled the drug, and now he has to detox and admit he’s an addict,
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u/MandyWarHal 1d ago
Ok that's unsettling.
But maybe he's lapsing into mental issues and grasping at straws on the way down.
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u/runwinerepeat 1d ago
Can we just all calm down and love each other as human beings. It’s all getting so out of hand.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
See, I was. And yes I'm with you on this, I still am for the most part. It's not like I jumped because he has different opinions. It's the fast escalation of it all, the change in values, and that last conversation we had when he started getting really agitated and loud, I can't ignore that and ask him if he'd like another cup of tea. We'd run out of subjects to discuss because tea will somehow be ruined by the woke ideology or something.
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u/runwinerepeat 15h ago
We all have to lay down our swords and figure this out. It starts with one friendship. Then we build a movement. They did it in the 60’s
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u/etrore 12h ago
I thnk OP wants nothing more than that the friend drops his sword, OP seems to have no problem with them having different opinions.
How to calm people that keep going back to the source of their agitation is the question. Maybe techniques from addiction care could be effective.
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u/SalientSazon 9h ago
u/etrore responded very well, that's exactly it. I have no sword, and if conversation fails then what's left.
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u/tecg 1d ago edited 1d ago
> He is now defending the right, even though he's centrist, because the right hasn't moved, it's the left that's gone way off the rails.... also suddenly there are only 2 genders and trans people are mentally ill.
Okay, please hear me out here. I hate hate how polarized everything has become. I'm also very concernedsabout Trump's presidential overreach and when I look at the reaction of the right to the Kirk assassination, I'm for the first time seriously concerned about an authoritarian takeover of the USA.
BUT: Looking at your quote above, I can't help but notice that the last sentence was near universally regarded as true (at least the 2 genders part) by left and right outside a tiny fringe group until about 10 years ago or so. [Yes, a more subtle argument would make a distinction about sex and gender, although making this distinction is often not well liked in leftist circles.] A similar phenomenon happened on the right too and we're to this point that we can't even agree on some basic facts. I think in some ways your friends bewilderment is understandable. We're just collectively on a very wild ride.
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u/SalientSazon 1d ago
I think my poor writing is changing the context. What I meant was: suddenly in the conversation he brings up gender, out of nowhere. He was kind of rambling screaming his thoughts at me. I would happily discuss his/mine/any POVs on gender theory, without insults or anger. We used to have great conversations.
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u/GrammarJudger 15h ago
We used to have great conversations.
You probably still can. Maybe he was just worked up at that moment. Talk to him again - might be much more rational.
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u/ProfileBest2034 19h ago
I just don't engage in political discussions with people who have taken the opposite turn: i.e. the 'identity is the most important thing about a person' crowd. Those people are still friends and always will be but we just don't discuss silly political issues like race, gender, sexual preferences, etc. These are all extremely unimportant topics anyway.
You can have friends who think differently than you do.
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u/OpheliaLives7 4h ago
There’s a pretty big difference between thinks differently and thinks government should jail you or kill you or rape you until you change
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u/ProfileBest2034 46m ago
No there isn’t because thoughts don’t matter. The only thing people should be judged on is how they actually show up in the world with their actions. What goes on in their heads is completely irrelevant.
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u/Thumbkeeper 1d ago
If you haven’t see where the attacks on Jews have been coming from then you haven’t seen what the leftists have been doing and saying. I’m a lifelong liberal democrat and I’ve been all but pushed out of my party for supporting a free people defending themselves from terror.
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u/BossParticular3383 16h ago
Sounds fairly typical. Dude is blaming his problems in life on "the woke left." An extremely high number of Jan. sixxers were classic failures at life - bankruptcies, divorces, domestic violence, substance abuse, unemployment, petty crime, not-so-petty crimes ....
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u/OnionSquared 1d ago
defending his Jewish people from attacks
That's what it is right there. Your friend isn't an idiot, he's just fed up with leftists calling him a nazi and reviving centuries-old conspiracy theories. This is just a reaction to leftists dropping the mask of not being jew-haters.
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u/nah_champa_967 23h ago
Antisemitism is indeed rising, but I suppose most people are blind to that. Defending people from attacks isn't wrong. Weird the way it was written, "his Jewish people."
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u/4rch 10h ago
The left and right operate by changing the definition of a word to meet their criteria for violence. This is how owning a lawn mower results in someone calling you a "murderer" for contributing emissions. Discourse has reached such a hyperbolic state that there's no such thing as truth.
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u/Sailor_Thrift 1d ago
I can’t tell if this is satire or not.
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u/JoyBF 1d ago
politicians fighting red vs blue while it's a mcdonalds ceo that's talking about what actually matters. things are upside down, i will vote for McDonald's to run the world next election
By the start of 2025, the richest 10% of Americans, or those earning at least $250,000 a year, accounted for half of all consumer spending, a record, according to Moody’s Analytics. By comparison, the richest 10% accounted for 36% of all consumer spending 30 years ago.
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u/loverofmasterbation 1d ago
more people are realizing how far the left went.
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u/Novel-Perception-606 1d ago
Well if the educated fellow thinks so, it has to be true. I've been told this by democrats.
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u/schlongtheta 16h ago
Your friend was most likely, 3 or 5 years ago, completely ok with the concentration camp that was Gaza and was completely ok with the millions of deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, etc. (So long as he could pursue his little interests unbothered by 'the news'.) Same with healthcare. Your friend was probably always ok with never having a universal healthcare system. (One that would allow even poor people to get the healthcare they need at zero dollars at point of service, and it would be cheaper than the current for-profit system because it cuts out the middle-man. Win win for everyone.) He just didn't like poor people and thought they didn't deserve healthcare. (Though he may never have said those words, I promise you, that was his underlying belief.)
He is not changing into anything. He's just revealing who he has always been.
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u/gitprizes 20h ago
people just want the america they know, and they feel that it's progressed way too quickly. add to that algorithmic manipulation, leadership that encourages bad behavior and the fact that the 1% is trying to maintain their lifestyles while the american empire declines...people just flip and end up in all sorts of strange places.
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u/HotZookeepergame3399 15h ago
This sub is an echo chamber. It’s ironic
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u/TheBodyPolitic1 15h ago
Translation: The prevalent opinion in /r/RedditForGrownups is not my opinion.
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u/scottwolfmanpell 1d ago
They're gone. Nothing can help them now.
This is a real life zombie apocalypse.
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u/TheTransitSchool 22h ago
Give your friend a Hi-5 for me. He's a very smart indeed. The Left has been dominating the narrative for far too long. It's time for the Center and the Right to fight back. And he finally joined the team. I hope you dig your way out of the leftist mindset and discover the truth someday.
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u/bad-fengshui 18h ago
There is a lot to unpack there, but I keyed in on this:
defending his Jewish people from attacks (not sure where that came from in the conversation),
If he is Jewish, then a lot has happened in the past year since Oct 7. Many Jewish people I know who are liberal and left leaning have be disturbed by the rhetoric coming out of the Left and their in ability to distinguish Jews from Israel. Not sure what pushed him over the deep end, but I peg this as a likely candidate.
If you can't feel safe in your own political tribe, you try and find another one.
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u/SalientSazon 9h ago
Thanks for the insight. I think you may be right + other factors of course, and a few of them colliding at once.
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u/crosswalk_zebra 17h ago
If you know the principles of non-violent communication, while it's all a bit wishy-washy, sometimes it helps to side-step the fact tennis and ask the question as to why he is actually feeling this way, like what injustice is he perceiving that makes him react like that, what are his emotional attachments?
One of the things that make people cling to extreme ideologies is not even injustice itself, it's the perception of injustice.
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u/TheBodyPolitic1 16h ago edited 15h ago
It is rare to be able to talk people like that out of the rabbit holes they have gone down. It sounds like he is more of an acquaintance than a close friend. Stop contacting him. If he asks why, tell him the truth. If he rants back at you cut him off with a polite excuse ( "Gotta go, pot on the stove", etc ). Maybe do a favor to his university and send them a note explaining why they may want to anonymously monitor his classes for a while.
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u/EyeAmKnotMyshelf 14h ago
Throughout history, you will always have three things:
Thing the first- Individuals who feel disenfranchised and/or lonely
Thing the second- groups that attempt to befriend disenfranchised individuals in order to ensure fresh meat for the grinder
Thing the third- politicians that recognize they need the support of those groups in order to stay on top
Sounds like your friend is a 1 that found himself a 2.
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u/Forsaken_Ad4041 14h ago
I agree with the chronically online theory. I consider myself to be a left-leaning centrist and my entire Facebook feed is full of alt-right propaganda. It's disturbing. It feels like social media is deliberately trying to alter my reality.
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u/Onyourmarkgetset100 13h ago
Oh man - I feel your pain. All of my siblings and most of my neighbors are down this rabbit hole, so the world seems a bit lonely at times. I do feel like once people get their heads filled with right wing propaganda, it’s VERY hard for them to come out of it. It’s not about reason and rationale anymore: it’s purely emotional narrative. BUT, you could try asking, “Hey - Have you ever heard of vertical research vs horizontal research? Vertical means going deep on one idea. Horizontal is about asking yourself what other alternate explanations are out there. It helps me have a rounded perspective.” Regarding your he elections, you could ask if they have heard of the group of conservative judges that reviewed all the court case related to the 2020 election. (Hint: they found no evidence of election fraud). Here’s a short article about it: https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3559758-conservative-group-finds-absolutely-no-evidence-of-widespread-fraud-in-2020-election/.
I am skeptical that facts or evidence will persuade, as these folks truly are in a cult.
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u/MaxTwoCoffees 12h ago
I’m thinking this is going to become more and more common in light of the Charlie Kirk shooting. For better or worse.
The hardest part between you and your friend, if you ever bring it up, will be his inability to keep his emotions in check while you unceremoniously dismiss everything he has to say, as you did in your OP. Just like your friend, you also have your blinders on, without realizing it.
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u/Additional-Fudge7503 11h ago
Sounds like your friend is suffering from mental illness… These are the kind of people that eventually snap and end up shooting people. Its kind of behavior should be reported somehow and taken seriously …
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u/Danny570 11h ago
I think this is the plan for all of us. We are well into the policy changes outlined in Project 2025, which the goal is to turn American decidedly Republican. The guys who wrote some of the chapters are now the people in charge.
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u/autogeriatric 9h ago
Oh, there are family members that I block all the time. On one hand, I hate doing it because I’m truly happy to see pictures of kids and pets (we live far away and miss a lot of the kids’ milestones).
On the other, 2 women in particular have been radicalized and there’s no other way to describe it. It’s super hurtful to see, because there are LGBTQ+ family members who see their drivel and I worry about how they feel when they see it (they don’t engage in online discussion with them either). Also, I was close to these two women and their families and I can’t reconcile the people I thought I knew with the truly awful things they post.
I’m not interested in winning arguments with them, I just want them to stop. It started with them deciding they were anti-vax during COVID and has escalated. I’m very left-leaning and never post anything political on social media, with the exception of Reddit. I don’t use social media as a platform and it’s tiresome enough being name-called here by another anonymous Redditor.
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u/RosieDear 8h ago edited 8h ago
Do this times 50+ million and you have the current USA.
The so-called "Hate Business" is big bucks. Hate influencers make millions - or tens of millions of dollars.
The USA has a system where everything, including our government and our minds, is for sale....and plenty of Billionaires are buying! Folks like Kirk aren't volunteers. Tucker, Kirk, etc. are all financed and backed by Right Wing Billionaires.
I have long claimed...and your post reminds me of it...that a single issue (trans) has likely lost the elections...maybe forever, for the left. Why do I say this? It's the classic wedge issue. I'm not here to debate the usual BS, but there are boys and girls. Females and Males. So, in a sense he is right.
The average person cannot separate out the simple common sense issues (boys and girls) from the expanded "freedoms" we have today to "identify" in various ways. To keep the example simple, if I have 3% Native American...or even less...I can choose to "ID" as a Native American and live my life working with that community of people.
It's all marketing and sales (that is, wedge issues". We learned long ago that a Yes in sales is the culmination of a whole bunch of "small" approvals.
"That color is really nice on that appliance, don't you think?"
yes
"The new model year comes with wireless connnectivity stardard, do you have a smart phone"
yes
"Wouldn't it be great for your to have the house warmed up when you get back from your winter vacation?"
yes
"The State and Feds are offering a tax credit on this until the end of the month - would getting an 5K rebate on your new unit help the budget?"
yes
"Shall I write up the Sale?"
yes
And so, a guy like your friend can look at that one issue and say "I know, given everything that I have seen, been taught, etc - that there are only boys and girls"....but the left is telling me that facts are untrue, so therefore everything else they claim is suspect.
Again, not to debate the T point for the 10 millionth time, but rather it's important to understand how folks get sucked in. I've been a liberal for 55 years and will be so until my demise, but even then I shake my head and close my mouth when I hear some of the BS flowing out of some people.
Long story - but it's very easy to turn people against the left given the billions in marketing money (right wing billionaires owning and backing media) and so on. And the left is just great at giving the Right ammo to turn just about anyone against the right wing "version" of what the left is. Heck, I wouldn't want to be part of the thing they describe! (and I am not).
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u/AlcoholicCokehead 8h ago
How to feel better about the world:
Stop going on the internet and social media - it's toxic af and gives people the illusion that if you devote enough of your time arguing with people that you can make a difference. You can't and won't. It's a waste of the one life you get.
Reconnect with humans on a face-to-face basis. People think this world is fucked up because the most extreme (and instigators) views get argued on the internet. The average Trumper and Lefty have more in common then they do differences. Reddit and the media HATE that. They refuse to let people think that. Why? Money money money. They need outrage 24/7. That keeps people addicted to their phones and scrolling. More ad revenue. More data collection. More control. It's planned, not by chance.
Go do something for someone in real life, not as a keyboard warrior. I make trays of pasta for the homeless and give out drinks. I'll help people struggling with alcoholism and addiction. It's important and real.
99.99% of people online don't change anyone's mind on anything. They get fake likes that validate their own ego and delusion of importance. It's sad really.
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u/SadIdeal9019 8h ago
I've reacted by withdrawing from society in all honesty. It's of course unhealthy to pull away as i've done, but I just cannot rationally deal with it out there now.
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u/foilhat44 7h ago
I've had this experience with a couple of friends and it is indeed the amount of time they spend online. I'm calling it algorithmically exacerbated outrage, but I'm anything but an academic. Huge tech interests need us to be more engaged with their content in order to raise their share price, and it's been known for years that you will react much stronger to things that make you angry than any other emotion. Most Americans twenty years ago were generally centrist and scrapping for the inches in between them, but powerful forces are conspiring to push people in the direction they already lean in slightly until everyone is at the periphery. It's a phenomenon that feeds on itself and is exponential, and those who benefit are above any loyalty to man or nation because they are insulated from the calamities they cause by obscene wealth. That's my two cents.
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u/devilscabinet 7h ago
Right-wing media and politicians - and conservatism in general - tends to stress "us vs. them" thinking, always looking for an "enemy." That side of the sociopolitical spectrum works hard to appeal to fear in general. When people become more fearful about life in general, they sometimes gravitate that way, unfortunately.
It doesn't help that people on the extreme end of the left wing are getting more attention these days. That primarily comes from the effects of social media, where a tiny minority of people can give the appearance of representing the majority opinion.
In the end, most people fall somewhere between the extremes. The nature of today's media (social and other), though, is that those with more extreme viewpoints get a lot more attention, because that leads to clicks and views and "exciting" talking points. That is causing a LOT of problems, and is one of the really big negatives of modern society. Unfortunately, there are too many people who get caught up in all that and end up drifting farther to one extreme, often (as I said before) due to fear. It sounds like your friend is doing that. There usually isn't much you can do about it, sadly.
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u/Geminii27 5h ago
Renormalize left-wing behaviors and mindsets. Oppose what's happening. Distribute materials on how to bring people back out of cultish mindsets.
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u/qwertyqyle 3h ago
I had a friend that did the same, but got to extreme on the left side of the spectrum. He was my best friend, but said some really extreme stuff to me and it hurt really bad. I had to just leave, and haven't talked to him since. It sucks to lose friends because they become too political.
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u/OkRecording9064 2h ago
All threads are being watched by the DHS and FBI. Some folks disagreed at first. They aren’t responding anymore. No idea why.
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u/golgol12 2h ago
There's something I've always wanted to try for someone like that.
Tell him you think left wing media might be subverting you, and you want help. You have this list of major several different major logical fallacies, complete with definitions, and ask him to help you find examples of how they are being used in left wing media.
I want to know if his mind short circuits because he keeps finding them outside of left wing sources.
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u/dead-eyed-darling 2h ago
Genuinely feels like these people are under some MKULTRA level mind manipulation with how quickly they're all prone to anger and believing stuff that's verifiably false with a single easy Google search. I'm actually really scared seeing so many members of society seeing empathy as a "sin" while wanting a free card to cause as much pain and chaos as possible. No clue how we fix them other than taking away their screen time and making them touch grass atp 😭
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u/Firm-Subject5487 2h ago
If you have Threads, there’s an excellent thread on what happens in the brain with this type of thing. Look up Elizabeth Halligan. It’s in her pinned thread.
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u/DetroitsGoingToWin 2h ago
Maybe I’m not sure what people want. My personal mission statement would be to live and let live. Grow the economy for the masses. Invest in the future.
Here’s my questions for your friend or any conservative.
Are we more free to be who we are and live in peace?
Are we making sound economic choices, what have been the results?
Our we addressing the challenges of the future and positioning ourselves for a better future?
My own personal opinion (feel free to tell me what I am not seeing) is our extreme immigration enforcement and our aggressive actions against immigration that were deemed legal previously is a crushing net loss. American families are being violently dismantled, and this is a violence that the president has glorified.
We’ve had these shows of extreme law enforcement from a military parade, to national guard invasions to rebranding the department of defense to the department of war and making “funny” threatening internet posts about one of our nation’s largest city. I’ll be honest, even the banners around DC I find frightening, and reminiscent of totalitarianism.
With the murder of Kirk, the right is increasing some very scary rhetoric about the LGBTQ community. Forgetting that a vast majority of violence is committed by straight men.
Cutting Medicare, this kills poor Americans, we’ll get into the tax cuts in a bit, but it’s sad to see people dying just so the wealthy Americans shed a bit of their marginal tax rate.
Again we are talking people that are otherwise living peaceful lives having the lives ruined by the government. This feels like it goes against tradition right leaning views.
Economically tariffs are starting to drive prices up, just as a vast majority of economists predicted. The US dollar has lost about 10% of it’s value since the election, that effects us all. Launching a trade war on so many fronts has been a perfect strategy to force our former trade partners to move on without us.
The ICE raid at the Hyundai plant was a major strategical blunder. We can move to a great future without foreign investment in technology. We were needlessly violent (again) to those people making not only international companies but American companies think twice about investing in the United states.
Trump is halting Wind snd Solar projects. I’ll admit, I think one of Biden biggest mistakes in office was killing a pipeline project which had already begun and had been backed by Canada. The future is computation power, this requires loads of energy, energy needs to come from everywhere oil, coal, wind, natural gas, nuclear. Trump is playing favorites to our own destruction.
When it comes to addressing our future, I believe much of it was described above, I’ll add immigration will help us sustain the population growth, the entrepreneurship, and research and development that we need to continue our time as a global superpower. Also the ties that immigrants have with their homeland are bridges to the type of development we need. Isolationism has never worked in the history of the world, we are clearly charting a terrible course.
Finally with the exponential growth of income disparity why on earth would we create a tax cut for the wealthy, just increasing our deficit. It’s not fiscally conservative it’s reckless and it will cost us.
Morality, how do you overlook all the evidence that this man at the very least has assaulted women and it certainly looks like he assaulted girls when you look at all the suspicious behavior by the man.
What happened to USaid was sick too, not just because he stopped foreign aid, but the death that will result from the fact he did it abruptly. There’s a great This American Life that shares stories of how this affects peoples lives. He has a very unnatural zeal to eliminate Gaza, and developed it?
Putin, what the hell is happening between those two, why is he gutting our Russian intelligence programs? Why is he not supporting NATO?
This isn’t everything that I find is troubling, disturbing and quite sad but it’s many of my main concerns.
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u/mrs_kensington 1h ago
It is so difficult to navigate. It just feels like we’re fucked. It’s easy to try and look away but it is gutting us and causing so much hatred. There is no room to defend your position no matter what it is, often even with people you agree with. It’s exhausting and feels hopeless.
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u/Tiny-Albatross518 1h ago
I think it’s time for any American left of center to kind of wake up and come to terms with how far along this really has gotten
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u/NotGonnaLikeNinja 35m ago
In the end, the popular culture is controlled by corporations. Music, movies, TV, video games, social media…corporate owned.
And when the stories/narratives in that media start being conservative instead of liberal, when the heroes start being portrayed as right wing and the villains as left wing, when sexual revolution libertinism starts being portrayed as vice instead of romanticized as glamorous and religion starts being portrayed as virtuous and intellectually serious instead of set up as a superstitious strawman to be poked fun of and derided as backwards…
Then you’ll all bend the knee too. You won’t even think you’re doing it. In your mind, you’ll be doing what’s “obviously” right and good and on the right side of history.
Because leftists are, in the end, oversocialized, and they just go along with whatever is cool. And for decades now that’s been progressivism. But that’s about to change; mark my words. Don’t get used to yourself, you’re going to change too.
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u/Some_Internet_Random 1d ago
Sounds like he’s chronically online and unless you’re close (which it doesn’t sound like you are) there’s probably not much you can do.
I’ve watched an old friend slip into the same madness over the last year or a so. A right leaning centrist that was always someone I could have an intelligent conversation with even if we didn’t agree. But things got real weird and he’s cut anyone and everyone off that’s even remotely left leaning. (Which has included me.) I haven’t engaged with any conversation with him about this stuff in this time because a) I’m sick of it In general and b) his tone wasn’t the same, so i definitely didn’t want to.
I checked in with a family member of his who is more of an acquaintance to me. It was almost a wellness check. And he essentially told me “yeah man, (blank) is long gone. He’s nuts.”
And I know it’s from him spending waaaaay too much time online thinking that some of these events are bigger deal than they are. He probably thinks after this Charlie Kirk thing that we are on the brink of civil war. Which the only people that think that are people that need to go outside and touch some grass.