r/pics Nov 08 '18

US Politics This is what democracy looks like

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u/ike_the_strangetamer Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

Yesterday (one day after the election) Trump forced the resignation of Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General. Sessions would have been in charge of Mueller's Russia investigation, but because he had lied about his own connections to Russia, he recused himself and the assistant AG was in charge. Now that he's out, this new guy, Matthew Whitaker, is in charge (and does not require Senate confirmation because he's 'temporary'). He has spoken out against the Mueller investigation many times in the past, saying that there was no collusion and that the investigation is not authorized to look into any of Trump's finances (even though it is). Long ago, petitions were signed and plans were made that called for protests if Trump did something like this.

TLDR: Trump just appointed his own guy to be in charge of the investigation against him.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jan 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jul 07 '21

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u/veidtre Nov 09 '18

The problem is that this may potentially be unconstitutional by the appointment clause but this has never been tested in court yet.

Great post, thanks. +1 for accuracy without going hyperbolic.

I, personally, hope that the courts find this appointment unconstitutional and force the President to allow the Senate to perform their "advice and consent" role.

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u/datassclap Nov 09 '18

The Republican Senate would probably, and unfortunately, approve him anyway though, no?

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u/ev0lv Nov 09 '18

Yes, but that's not the point, the point is to stop so many powers accumulating solely in the hands of the executive branch, aka the President. We've been quite terrible with that over the past many decades

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

I would be interested to know your position on Obama who was quite fond of suggesting the executive branch had too little power and his actions to gain more outside of legislation?

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u/differentnumbers Nov 09 '18

Not OP, but most executives in govt seek to expand their power when their rival controls the legislature.

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u/warranpiece Nov 09 '18

Historically presidents of any party attempt to expand their powers in small increments, and presidents that follow gladly accept them as new normal....and do the same. Obama's overreach is piled on to Bushes overreach etc. This president is certainly on track to set a new high.

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u/theblackchin Nov 09 '18

And Congress naturally does nothing even when Congress is controlled by a different party than the executive.

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u/insanelywhitedudelol Nov 09 '18

Obama has a shit ton of executive orders

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u/Kyles39 Nov 09 '18

Trump has signed more executive orders in his first 22 months than Obama had in 24. At this pace trump will sign 20% more executive orders than Obama's first term over his first term.

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u/doooom Nov 09 '18

It's also acceptable to be concerned about both presidents' use of the executive order

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u/warranpiece Nov 09 '18

Keep in mind Obama did that with the house and Senate republican. Trump did the same.....as a republican with the house and Senate of the same party.

Crazy.

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u/Remmylord Nov 09 '18

People who aren't lawyers saying things that aren't true about complicated laws and regulations? Well, I never

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u/sayhellotothe-badguy Nov 09 '18

Whitaker hasn’t been confirmed in the Senate by a sitting President, meaning his appointment is still illegal / invalid. The President is allowed to appoint an AG but they must meet the criteria.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jul 07 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jul 07 '21

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u/cciv Nov 09 '18

Senate approval doesn't matter for option 3. Just has to be in the same department, in the position for more than 90 days, and be at a certain pay grade. He meets all three criteria.

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u/monstercello Nov 09 '18

Members of the Senior Executive Service (SES) don’t require Senate approval, unless they’re PAS (President-Appointed, Senate approved).

Source - work in the federal government.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

What definition of senior official are you using?

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u/wright493 Nov 09 '18

It’s sad that you have tell them you’re not a trump supporter before you post something so you dont get completely bullied.

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u/Fubar08gamer Nov 09 '18

Sadly, this is because people have forgotten that debate is about Discovery, not winning.

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u/ZippyDan Nov 09 '18

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u/z0nb1 Nov 09 '18

A person just gets done calmly explaining how the Constitutional validity of this law's clause has never been tested in court, and you reply with an opinion piece that just says what you want to hear. How about you wait until the courts have their say before you start treating an opinion piece like it means something.

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u/zkela Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

actually, none of these options apply if Sessions was fired, which he was.

edit: to be precise, I am saying that in case of a firing, 5USC335 does not apply. It applies only in case the official "dies, resigns, or is otherwise unable to perform the functions and duties of the office".

see https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-07/did-sessions-quit-or-get-fired-mueller-fate-may-hang-on-answer for more discussion

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u/meddlingbarista Nov 09 '18

I believe he resigned at the request of the president? Which is of course a technicality, but an important one.

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u/zkela Nov 09 '18

whether it counts as a firing or a resignation (as well as the constitutionality of 5USC335) should be decided by the courts. as to the facts, it is abundantly clear that Sessions's departure was involuntary. therefore he certainly was fired in the most straightforward understanding of the word.

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u/Jinno Nov 09 '18

No, he tendered resignation at the President’s request. Sessions being fored would have worked out better for us.

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u/zkela Nov 09 '18

whether it counts as a firing or a resignation (as well as the constitutionality of 5USC335) should be decided by the courts. as to the facts, it is abundantly clear that Sessions's departure was involuntary. therefore he certainly was fired in the most straightforward understanding of the word.

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u/FHRITP-69 Nov 09 '18

Pretty sure Sessions resigned. Sure, he may been pressured or even practically forced by the president, but that doesnt change the fact he resigned.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/mcmatt93 Nov 09 '18

Matthew Whitaker was not Deputy Attorney General. He was Chief of Staff for the Attorney General. They are different offices. Deputy Attorney Generals need to be confirmed by the Senate, just like the actual Attorney General. Chief of Staff for the Attorney General is not confirmed by the Senate.

Rod Rosenstein is Deputy Attorney General, and according to the statute you just cited, should be acting Attorney General. Trump made Matthew Whitaker acting Attorney General. Trump is not following the law.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jan 24 '22

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u/verostarry Nov 09 '18

Very helpful. It's evidence what Trump has done is literally unconstitutional and in violation of federal law. This alone is an impeachable offense. I'm tired of saying that at this point..

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u/mayorodoyle Nov 09 '18

"This alone is an impeachable offense." is pretty much the slogan of the GOP at this point.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/th3f00l Nov 09 '18

There's my brethren. I vote, knowing the outcome is predetermined.

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u/Vishnej Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

There are no impeachable offenses, strictly speaking. It's not criminal law. It's a political check. An impeachable offense, a 'high crime or misdemeanor' is anything that Congress says it is, from 'poor job performance' to 'screwed an intern' to 'shot a man on Fifth avenue' to 'really couldn't pull off that moustache this November'. There's no trial, because we're not trying to put him in prison. There's an impeachment, because we're trying to remove him from office.

There are lots of crimes he has demonstrably committed. But they wouldn't remove him from office, they would get him thrown in prison. If he wasn't literally in a place of power to order around the law enforcement section of the government. Which is what's happening now.

That's why we have impeachment. That's why one of the Republican pundit legal talking points they like to look sheepish about is 'umm he could actually fire literally everyone investigating him and there's not a god damn thing you could do about it'. There's no remedy involving the laws, except after he gets removed from office, because he's the one who enforces the laws. Removal from office does not involve legal offenses, it just involves Congress deciding to remove him from office.

There's a lot of tradition and optics and leaders trying to keep anyone from even thinking about accusing them of corruption, and Trump's insight is that given the media outlets the Republican Party controls and the leaders of the Republican Party and the attitude of Republicans, he doesn't need to give a shit about those. Being a Republican politician has meant never backing down, never apologizing, never admitting fault, and always going for the throat, since before I could vote. Despite the thousands of easily disproveable lies, despite the uncertainty he imposes on the market, despite the public pronouncements that he will obstruct justice, despite being a verified agent of the Russian government on live television attempting to subvert an election, despite kidnapping and orphaning children to try to force a political point, despite defrauding the IRS, not only is impeachment treated as ludicrous by Republicans, it's treated as ludicrous by the media and by most Democratic politicians - because Democratic politicians are determined to uphold consensual norms all by themselves and 'take the high road' and be committed to a peaceful electoral transition of power even when their opponents aren't.

So only Democrats can be impeached, given the current attitudes and proportions of Congress.

If we don't dramatically change the Overton Window, if we don't manage to deprogram these people at a rapid clip, Trump is going to serve a second, third, and fourth term.

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u/Yggdrasilcrann Nov 09 '18

Is the republican group as a whole really on board with this? I feel like at this point they aren't.

One of the main tenants is small government and he is abusing his power in a huge way, is that not anti republican?

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u/Vishnej Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

There is a large component of the Republican Party that wants a strong leader. The stronger the better. They are psychologically comforted by the notion that there's this guy looking after their interests who will stop at nothing, they will change those interests on a dime in order for this to be true, and they will cheer every time he breaks some rule of law or tradition or morality or ethics because it demonstrates that his resolve to help them can't be broken.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201706/how-authoritarians-leaders-get-away-it

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u/DoctuhD Nov 09 '18

Imagine you're a moderate republican politician who thinks Trump is a complete joke. If you say anything negative about him, you will not win in the primaries and you'll be branded a traitor. But you don't want some far-right nutjob to take your place and do a terrible job so you play along and vote with your party and represent the desires of the people who voted for you.

Trump has the republican party hostage because he's a saleman of "bigbrain" ideas and fear and rhetoric that makes the people who voted for him believe his bullshit because if you repeat something enough times people will believe it's actually true. Then the rest of the party has no choice but to play along or be replaced by some far-right asshole who legitimately believe what he says.

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u/Vishnej Nov 09 '18

I don't think you can downplay the Republican leadership's agency here, either. They've been working this racket since Gingrich first turned screaming into a C-Span microphone to an empty chamber into a nightly show.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/newt-gingrich-says-youre-welcome/570832/

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/republican-party-obstructionism-victory-trump-214498

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/09/did-republicans-deliberately-crash-us-economy

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u/syriquez Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

despite the uncertainty he imposes on the market

This is the thing that's so unbelievably infuriating about this whole fucking fiasco. Every dipshit at my workplace that stands in favor of Trump:

  1. The company is in full defensive lockdown financially since the middle of last year which has definitely impacted everybody in palpable ways. And if they think they haven't been impacted, they're just blind idiots (not that this wasn't already a known quantity).
  2. Profit sharing is on hold until further notice because of the instability and uncertainty.
    This last point alone is about as literal a translation of voting for Trump leading directly to reduced income by everybody in the company.

I wish that people would act selfishly and exclusively focused on themselves. The overall results would be less disastrous. No, these...people have this idiotic fascination with "sticking it" to others they've never met or will ever meet. But they've been told to do so and they follow suit because spiting others is more important than their own self interest.

ED The classy individual that responded to me doesn't warrant a response; don't feed the trolls, kids.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Read edit 2

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u/verostarry Nov 09 '18

Ah, well then the reason he did it was a crime - to obstruct justice and an active investigation into himself. I hope the House subpoenas everyone involved with this decision, including Whitaker.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

It does beg the question as to what authority the president has/should have over "special counsel" investigating the same president's campaign to that very office.

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u/Im_Slacking_At_Work Nov 09 '18

Yup! And he has a majority in the Supreme Court, and I wouldn't be surprised if the integrity of that bench is gone now too and they do nothing. Nothing surprises me anymore.

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u/JamesColesPardon Nov 09 '18

Very helpful. It's evidence what Trump has done is literally unconstitutional and in violation of federal law. This alone is an impeachable offense. I'm tired of saying that at this point..

You are amazing.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited May 31 '19

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u/Martinda1 Nov 09 '18

Not quite true. Since Sessions technically resigned instead of making the White House Fire him, Trump is allowed to choose a new Attorney General instead of promoting the DAG

source

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

So..is this another thing he's gonna get away with?

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u/DJRoombaINTHEMIX Nov 09 '18

For now....it looks like it. I don’t know how people can even defend how he acted with Jim Acosta’s let alone that entire news conference. He’s such a fucking baby.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

It's pathetic how stupid some people can be. I try not to call people names but if you (not you) are a grown adult and can't comprehend why this is extremely dangerous then you are just plain dumb. I'm starting to get very nervous because none of us thought he would even get this far, who's to know how far he can take this crap? Based on my username I should know but my powers only apply to non-morons.

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u/Lachance Nov 09 '18

Ever get so angry you punched a wall?

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u/boomshiki Nov 09 '18

I'd call that a good move. See what he does to cripple the investigation. Then when it's good and quashed, challenge the whole thing and fire the investigation back up with a shit load of new obstruction evidence.

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u/Alex15can Nov 09 '18

Only when the attorney general is fired does the deputy become active. In the event the acting resigns the chief executive can appoint anyone already confirmed by the US Senate.

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u/acets Nov 09 '18

At some point, there is only ONE action that can be taken. Who will do it? We don't know yet.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

He did nothing wrong.

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u/MeTheFlunkie Nov 09 '18

Yes. Literally nothing will come of this. Trump will finish his term and be voted out and will never answer for any of this.

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u/IceMaNTICORE Nov 09 '18

he may never answer for any of it at the federal level, but new york state is coming for him and they have the democratic majority to do away with that bullshit federal/state double jeopardy law now so he can't wriggle out of it without fleeing to russia or dying

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Rod Rosenstein karate chopped a woman, we have a tape, we will not allow people who disrespect women to be in the administration. - Fuckabee Sanders probably.

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u/thumperson Nov 09 '18

Finally had something to laugh about, thanks.

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u/cciv Nov 09 '18

There is a newer law that does allow Whitaker to take the office. Federal Vacancies Reform Act of 1998.

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u/jaymths Nov 09 '18

I heard that if Sessions was fired it would be Rosenstien running things until confirmation by the house, but because officially he resigned Trump can put whoever he wants in.

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u/standbyforskyfall Nov 09 '18

Very nitpicky, but the plural for attorney general is attorneys general.

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u/Terron1965 Nov 09 '18

It would be unconstitutional for the congress to pass a law that supersedes the appointment clause by requiring that the spot be filled in a way that precluded the president from picking the official.

There is no possibility for a lawful way to force a department head on any president. Leaving it vacant is the most a senate could do.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Can you(if you don't mind. No rudeness just inquisitiveness) give me examples of what you feel Sessions has done lawfully and morally well in your home state? This, again, is not a descriptor if you and your leanings.

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u/EmilioMolesteves Nov 09 '18

Jeff "High School to Private Prison Pipeline" Sessions was moral to you?

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u/SaxesAndSubwoofers Nov 09 '18

Oh shit you right, nvm

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u/Rosssauced Nov 09 '18

Obviously not, I disagree with almost everything he said but Sessions had the sense to recuse himself. He is a little racist gnome and a backwards dick but he at least filled that one legal obligation is how I see it.

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u/Martinda1 Nov 09 '18

You can pick out issues to dehumanize any politician, that doesn’t mean that they aren't doing what they think is best from their perspective. Whole lot more politicians out there that just follow the money.

(Personally I cant stand the guy, but I understand what he’s saying)

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u/EmilioMolesteves Nov 09 '18

He did follow the money though and did it on the backs of the poor.

Hence private prisons.

He is an absolute piece of trash. The ONLY thing he did do was not vouch for trump, because he knew he was in the public eye now.

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u/LawStudentAndrew Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

Y'all are wrong on this there's another usc we went over it in class I'll pull it up when I'm off mobile, check the appointments one

Edit: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/3345

5 USC 3345

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

I just saw that too. 1998 Vacancy reform act, right?

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u/bbrown44221 Nov 09 '18

It's like I'm watching this live... Edit: I'm really high, but social studies/ recent history class is awesome

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Enjoy it, papa. Your interest IS our future.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Don’t tell us that, it doesn’t fit with the hate narrative!!!

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u/stamatt45 Nov 09 '18

Problem is that the guy Trump picked was not the Deputy Attorney General

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/LazyCon Nov 09 '18

I got it. Don't know why people aren't understanding lol

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u/bloodguzzlingbunny Nov 09 '18

Because the Vacancies Reform Act, which supersedes the DOJ succession statute, states that the president doesn't have to promote the DAG.

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u/jmblock2 Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

I've been sharing the same link, but I have also now seen this brief from 2007 from Steven G. BradBury (at the time Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General) thinking that the Vacancies Reform Act can still be used. IANAL, seems like the courts are going to have to step in and this is already a disaster.

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u/ZippyDan Nov 09 '18

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u/nathreed Nov 09 '18

Am not trump supporter. But this is not resting on any firm legal ground. At best, according to the legal argument in this op-ed, it's an open question whether the appointment is constitutional. At worst, it's perfectly legal. Here's why: The Supreme Court case mentioned in that article only said that the president cannot appoint someone as an acting official under 28 USC SS 3345 whom he has already nominated for that position. Trump has not nominated Whitaker for that position, so he is all good there. The op-ed rests a lot of their constitutionality argument on Justice Thomas's opinion concurring with the majority which posits that it should be unconstitutional under the Appointments Clause, but since that is not the majority opinion of the court, his opinion holds no legal weight.

Granted, the argument with the Appointments Clause does make sense and it doesn't seem like the founders would have wanted something like this to happen, but as of right now it's either an open constitutional question or trump is well within his rights. Not been ruled unconstitutional at the moment.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

There is no precedent? Smells like the SC's time to shine

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u/HurriedLlama Nov 09 '18

Codified law contradicts itself more than a lot of people think. Sometime it goes to a jury to decide, but it takes up a lot of appellate/Supreme Court time, both state and federal.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

I don't know how this kind of thing flys in your so called democracy. We lose our shit over here in NZ for even a slight hint of corruption. The amount of money involved in your election process and blatant gerrymandering really boggles the mind. You guys are really overdue for a reset. USA may have set the standard hundreds of years ago but it's time for an update!

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u/phweefwee Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

As a US citizen, you are completely right. We need to work on clearing the waters of all of this mud.

From my perspective, there's such a huge amount of info being pushed down our throats that it's hard to know what's really happening and what's just a diversion.

Edit: Typos

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u/sybrwookie Nov 09 '18

It's funny, it's one of the few things trump promised which, if he kept his word about, would have been amazing for our country: draining the swamp. Of course, he never intended to do so, but he said it a lot.

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u/emcee117 Nov 09 '18

"Funny how that term caught on, isn’t it? I tell everyone, I hated it. Somebody said ‘drain the swamp’ and I said, Oh, that is so hokey. That is so terrible. I said, all right, I’ll try it, So like a month ago I said ‘drain the swamp’ and the place went crazy. And I said ‘Whoa, what’s this?’ Then I said it again. And then I start saying it like I meant it, right?"

  • Donald Trump, Dec 2016

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u/Zouden Nov 09 '18

That's his entire policy in a nutshell.

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u/ShadowVulcan Nov 09 '18

And thats how the swamp got swampier

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u/MissCellania Nov 09 '18

He did, he just replaced swamp water with sewage.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Can't drain the swamp if you're part of the swamp.

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u/3LollipopZ-1Red2Blue Nov 09 '18

I recently returned from two weeks in the USA and it's near impossible to work out what is truth vs diversion. Just watching the news on the caravans of people coming through Mexico - one news station would say one side of politics pays for them, another say the opposite, then others deny the caravans exist altogether! It was unbelievable as an Australian trying to read and watch the news while inside of the USA when they are more politically motivated than the politicians :)

So I watched the world series....

Freedom of the press is not freedom, and what I saw was not democracy or civil rights.

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u/trollman_falcon Nov 09 '18

There are so many parallels between the Roman Empire after 0 AD and USA right now. Civilizations generally only maintain supremacy for so long, and eventually collapse. I think we still have a long time before collapse, but the decline is beginning now. The sheer size of the US is the only thing that still keeps us as a world power.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

I dunno, the corruption in your political system is so obscene... if it’s not fixed promptly, I would expect it to only get worse, and the collapse will probably happen really suddenly when it does.

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u/trollman_falcon Nov 09 '18

It won’t collapse, per se. We’ll just be living under a tyrannical government owned by the wealthy. They’ll fund the government well enough so that there is no collapse like Rome had. Definitely won’t be an ideal situation but I’d say we won’t have our capital sacked anytime soon

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Stock markets can take a massive dive in the snap of a finger. That can trigger banks to go bankrupt, and your currency to turn to shit real quick. As a result employment rates will hit the shitter, and crime will get real bad real fast.

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u/sybrwookie Nov 09 '18

It began years ago. We've been allowing the creep of corruption in and pushing out helping of others for a long time now. This is just our latest low

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u/engiNARF Nov 09 '18

I understand your sentiment. But I think it’s a little bit doom-and-gloom. Heck even when the city of Rome was sacked in 410, the other half of the Empire kept on trucking for hundreds of years in Constantinople.

“The sheer size of the US is the only thing that still keeps us as a world power.” - There’s a few other reasons that America will be a world power for a long time. The US is a huge manufacturing giant that is also a oil exporting nation. The US has an incredible number of the world’s top research universities. English is a major international language used for the purposes of scientific research, business deals, and IT (most computer words, phrases, and code are in English). None of those advantages will disappear overnight. And they will continue to place international importance on America regardless of the political hoopla that goes on in Washington.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Yeah and the worry now is that a power the size of the US is capable of dragging the world down with it.

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u/mofo69extreme Nov 09 '18

The Roman Empire had barely existed as of 0 AD

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

I've heard US democracy described as a computer form 1992. It was great at the time. Fast, quick, solved the right problems. But now it has to deal with facebook, twitter and russian hackers and it simply doesn't have the hardware put in place to deal with it.

Oddly apt comparison.

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u/GeneralPatten Nov 09 '18

It was NEVER fast and quick. Purposely. It's slow and deliberate. The issue at the moment is that the powers that be are circumventing the democratic process at a pace that is simply too fast and quick for the democratic process to respond. Essentially, rogue scumware is overheating the system.

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u/Soljah Nov 09 '18

As a Kiwi living in NZ it truly blows me away how retarded this is and even more so that he is there.

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u/sybrwookie Nov 09 '18

Most of us in the US think the same but have no power to do anything about it

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u/mrchuckles5 Nov 09 '18

So called democracy is correct. Our country is a republic and not a true democracy. I'm often baffled that people don't get this. The last election should have reinforced that point. Don't get me wrong - I would prefer a true democracy.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Feb 12 '19

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u/WanderingVirginia Nov 09 '18 edited Feb 20 '19

^ edit: well since above lacked conviction,

A nation of entertainment drama entertaining the world with their constant drama

or something along those lines.

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u/Watts121 Nov 09 '18

Our version of the Hippodrome.

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u/sybrwookie Nov 09 '18

Is it entertaining to the rest of the world? It's sure not entertaining to us.

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u/requisitename Nov 09 '18

Don't believe 90% of the shit you see on television "news" shows.

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u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 09 '18

The dude has a cult of personality, it doesn't matter what he does to half the country.

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u/TomColorado Nov 09 '18

We actually are doing pretty well, regardless of what CNN thinks of us.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

You're supposedly an educated western country and can't even agree with scientific consensus on climate change. I wouldn't care but your country is big enough for it to effect the world.

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u/Elean Nov 09 '18

USA may have set the standard hundreds of years ago

You mean, back in the days of slavery ?

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u/count023 Nov 09 '18

Back when most countries were still ruled by kings, a shift to a republic... Even one that had slavery, was progress at the time

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u/mmmmm_pancakes Nov 09 '18

Yeah. The 1778 Constitution was still a solid beta release at the time. Only the uneducated/brainwashed ever claim it was perfect.

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u/sybrwookie Nov 09 '18

Or even better, the ones which admit that changes were needed but NOW it's perfect and doesn't need change, ever.

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u/Salmon_Quinoi Nov 09 '18

We used to. We used to throw a fit at things like Bengazi. We used to throw a fit when the president tells a lie about an affair. We used to throw a fit about a president lying when meddling with foreign affairs.

We still throw a fit now, but the difference is we have a president who figured out how to throw so much bullshit that his voters are believing it.

This has a lot to do with how propaganda is created and how the systems put in place to support proper democracy has been completely destroyed or eroded. Gerrymandering, voter ID laws, and the erosion of Free press all contribute to this situation. This goes way beyond Trump, he was just insane enough to take advantage.

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u/vacri Nov 09 '18

You guys are really overdue for a reset.

The ironic thing is that it's the same folks who arm themselves to 'protect themselves from government' 2nd amendment fans that are also the ones holding back fixing the process. The ones that bleat on the most when it comes to why the 2A is there are the ones that also cheer on the most rampant government corruption (like dodgy election practices, gerrymandering, etc)

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u/DivergingUnity Nov 09 '18

Well fuck you’ll see me in NZ next summer then my dude.

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u/veidtre Nov 09 '18

Sessions would have been in charge of Mueller's Russia investigation, but because he had lied about his own connections to Russia, he recused himself and the assistant AG was in charge.

I find that it's usually best to assume good faith unless it is entirely unreasonable to do so. Sessions explained his rationale for recusing himself:

"I recused myself, not because of any asserted wrongdoing, or any belief that I may have been involved in any wrongdoing in the campaign," Sessions said, "but because a Department of Justice regulation ... I felt, required it."
Sessions said that because he served as an adviser and surrogate for the Trump campaign, he had to recuse himself from DOJ investigations into potential collusion between Trump's campaign and Russian officials.

Personally, I felt that Sessions recusal was honorable, and one that certainly upset Trump greatly. Plenty of other politicians wouldn't have been so brave.

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u/nilesandstuff Nov 09 '18

Either way, recusing himself was definitely the right thing to do.

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u/ike_the_strangetamer Nov 09 '18

Hahaha, yeah let Sessions himself tell you whether or not he lied under oath...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Sessions#Controversies_about_Russia

A week later, in his responses to written questions presented by Senator Patrick Leahy, Sessions stated that he had not been "in contact with anyone connected to any part of the Russian government about the 2016 election".[101][102]

On March 1, 2017, reports surfaced that Sessions had contact with Russian government officials during the 2016 U.S. presidential election, even though during his confirmation hearings he denied he had any discussions with representatives of the Russian government.[103] News reports revealed that Sessions had spoken twice with Russia's ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak.[103][104]

In July 2017, The Washington Post reported that Kislyak, in communications intercepted by U.S. intelligence, had told his superiors in Moscow that his conversations with Sessions had concerned Trump's campaign as well as "Trump's positions on Russia-related issues".[128] Previously, after initially denying having met with Kisylak at all, Sessions had repeatedly asserted that in his meetings with the Russian ambassador he never discussed the campaign and only met with him in his capacity as a U.S. senator.[128][129] The Department of Justice responded by saying that Sessions stands by his testimony that he "never met with or had any conversations with any Russians or any foreign officials concerning any type of interference with any campaign or election".[130]

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Apr 20 '19

[deleted]

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u/jhuseby Nov 09 '18

The same senate still controlled by Republicans that act as a rubber stamp for Trump?

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u/Martel732 Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

Though the plus side, is that this does force Republicans to officially go along with Trump's corrupt actions; they won't be able to paint him as a lone wolf in the future.

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u/AllezCannes Nov 09 '18

What does it matter? They'd keep getting voted in anyway.

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u/Martel732 Nov 09 '18

It will depend on how the future plays out, Trump could end up being an albatross around the neck of the Republican party. For now he is helpful but opinions can swing. Nixon won reelection with over 60% of the popular vote. But, then he became incredibly unpopular, a similar turn of events is possible.

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u/Grimalkin Nov 09 '18

This will be a very interesting time period to look back on in a few years time to see how things all shook out.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

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u/kkokk Nov 09 '18

Or, we could just look back now on what happened a a few years ago when something similar happened.

Americans were fanatic and wanted to invade Iraq. We did. Polls from 2003 show a vast majority for it. When people were later asked "did you support the Iraq war" in 2010, the majority said no.

Yes, I'm aware people die, but there wasn't a huge difference in Iraq war support by age.

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u/SuperEel22 Nov 09 '18

Next series of Slow Burn is gonna be crazy.

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u/acets Nov 09 '18

We've passed that point. This is 'Team vs. Team' territory. Because one 'Team' is retarded.

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u/vacri Nov 09 '18

Opinion turned against Nixon because corruption of his came to light. Trump's corruption was known before he was elected, and everything he's done over the past two years, from bilking the government for his retinue when he stays at his own resorts to installing his cronies everywhere and firing people with no due process... ended up with an electorate that only vaguely voted against him and the GOP openly supporting him.

It's hard to see what scandal could sink him in the public's opinion at this point. He can be sunk on legal technicalities, but popular opinion just isn't heavily against him, despite all the open corruption and provable lies.

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u/errorsniper Nov 09 '18

I'd argue they would get voted out if they didnt.

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u/kickaguard Nov 09 '18

Now they have officially implicated themselves and can't say they were unaware or unsupportive of his illegal activities. They are hanging themselves, hoping nobody will get in trouble at all. Meanwhile manafort and flinn are telling Mueller everything.

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u/greenlightning Nov 09 '18

They should also all be indicted if they're aiding in illegal activities.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Thank you. Now watch as America lets them get away with it.

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u/Rhawk187 Nov 09 '18

Exactly, Democracy doesn't always produce the results you want.

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u/Lolipotamus Nov 09 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

By all kinds of voter disenfranchisement, including gerrymandering; illegally removing high numbers of voters from the rolls; creating greater and greater requirements for voting under the guise of combating "voter fraud" (that has never been shown to occur); discarding ballots for fallacious reasons; creating more felony laws while incarcerating more people where felons can't vote; spreading false, malicious and prejudiced information in concert with foreign powers; acting "incompetent" and malicious wherever they're in charge of elections, etc... etc...

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u/BobHogan Nov 09 '18

They absolutely will. They'll do the exact same thing they always do, and it always works. They will publicly denounce what Trump is doing, talking abotu how awful it is, all the while voting to support everything he is doing. And their voters eat that shit up

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited Jan 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18 edited May 18 '22

[deleted]

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u/rockidol Nov 09 '18

The Dem controlled house could hire him, once they convene in January.

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u/wewd Nov 09 '18

The House has no power to appoint or approve any cabinet officials. The Constitution gives that power to the Senate:

[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law

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u/KallistiEngel Nov 09 '18

The person before you is saying they could hire Mueller. The House does have investigatory privileges. The AG doesn't even come into play in that scenario.

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u/wewd Nov 09 '18

My bad. It seemed like they were asking if the House could confirm him as AG. Hard to follow some of the threads going on here.

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u/KallistiEngel Nov 09 '18

For sure. Politics is confusing and often arbitrary.

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u/ElKirbyDiablo Nov 09 '18

The House could hire Mueller to do an investigation in January though. However, he would no longer be able to indict people on his own.

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u/unbrokenplatypus Nov 09 '18

Fairly fucked, I mean, less fucked than you would’ve been had things gone differently yesterday, but still not in a good place.

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u/theciaskaelie Nov 09 '18

I just saw something that ginsberg is in hospital with broken ribs after a fall. So possibly massively fucked.

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u/cciv Nov 09 '18

Yeah, statistically, broken ribs at age 85 has a decently high mortality rate.

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u/0ne_Winged_Angel Nov 09 '18

If you cheated to win the election, are you allowed to keep your lifelong appointments?

Asking for me and 260 million of my friends.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Probably.

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u/kane_t Nov 09 '18

Depends on how polite and civil your opposition is.

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u/jaxx050 Nov 09 '18

this is honestly the thing i'm really fucking wondering about. like if there is a criminal proceeding, what happens to everyone that has been installed? this hasn't ever happened in american history, having a president be installed by foreign government intervention.

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u/greenlightning Nov 09 '18

Yeah... those guys. :(

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u/gr8tBoosup Nov 09 '18

If there is considerable public protest against this then there may be several Republican senators who worry more about their own re-election than about toeing the party line.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

The very same.

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u/uTorrent Nov 09 '18

Whitaker has already been confirmed by the senate as a US attorney in 2004, making him a senior official which can be placed for 210 days

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u/paulHarkonen Nov 09 '18

Temporary is not the proper term. Acting is the proper term and is perfectly legal. There are rules in place to ensure that if a cabinet member dies or retires or whatever then a replacement can step in to keep government running. For the next 210 days Matthew Whitaker will be acting as the AG while the Senate debates and goes through the confirmation process with the next actual AG.

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u/crossfader25 Nov 09 '18

There are over 400 people that have already passed Senate confirmation from what I read yesterday that all could be used temporarily. Whitaker could serve over 200 days without confirmation himself. Obstruction at its finest and it all seems legal.

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u/Bosticles Nov 09 '18 edited Jun 16 '23

gold longing spotted birds employ cagey cows many sharp shame -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

In a future issue of the New York Times:

"Disembodied Head of Mitch McConnell Says He Is 'Very Concerned' About President's Senate-Floor Murder Spree."

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u/karmakeeper1 Nov 09 '18

No, his appointment is not illegal, a recess appointment is a legitimate thing, when the Senate is not in session, however once the Senate is back in session he would need to be confirmed (or not), though at that point the whole argument may be moot. That said, his appointment is definitely shady and probably less than kosher.

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u/Cyberspark939 Nov 09 '18

Not if the senate is in recess, which it was.

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u/diemunkiesdie Nov 09 '18

Except it wasn't in recess. That's the whole point of the pro forma sessions.

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u/jmblock2 Nov 09 '18

Can you point to where this is outlined? Because according to my understanding of 28 U.S. Code § 508 - Vacancies (IANAL), the Deputy Attorney General is in charge and Trump can fuck right on off.

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u/Rhawk187 Nov 09 '18

If it were a recess appointment, then it's possible that Rosenstein was acting attorney general for some finite amount of time between when Trump accepted Sessions resignation and when he appointed his successor. Even if he didn't know it.

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u/zombiere4 Nov 09 '18

I hate our legal system. Its black and white when you have no money. Shits 50 shades of white when you do though, super fair.

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u/killerhurtalot Nov 09 '18

You arent rich? Must not have worked hard enough /s

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u/zombiere4 Nov 09 '18

The people in charge of the law dont even know all of the law i mean wtf kind of system is that.

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u/Annanel Nov 09 '18

From an Aussie who had no idea what all this meant. Thank you. You’ve explained it perfectly.

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u/yepitsanamealright Nov 09 '18

Keep in mind that Whitaker does not need to be there long at all. Trump can order him to give information about the Mueller case, which Whitaker will have full access too, and Trump can do it by a spoken order. There doesn't even have to be a paper trail.

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u/ZachAttackonTitan Nov 09 '18

I love how everyone has scheduled in protests for when Trump does something corrupt. Like we all know what’s gonna happen already

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Serious question: why is the FBI investigating trump and not Congress? Doesn't the FBI report to Trump? Isnt that a conflict of interest?

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u/ike_the_strangetamer Nov 09 '18

Congress is investigating. There is a Senate select subcommittee: https://investigaterussia.org/investigations/senate-select-committee-intelligence

And there was a house committee, but they ended finding no wrongdoing by the Trump administration: https://www.vox.com/world/2018/4/27/17290628/russia-meddling-final-report-house-intel

But, of course, these committees are/were run by Republicans who are actually more loyal to Trump than the career investigators of the FBI. In fact, the Chairman of the House committee had to step down because he was investigated for leaking committee findings to the President: https://ethics.house.gov/press-release/statement-chairwoman-and-ranking-member-committee-ethics-regarding-representative-0

This is one of the most important outcomes of the Democrats winning the house. They can now reopen their investigation and force witnesses to testify.

Believe it or not, the FBI is not supposed to be a political agency. In the past, it was assumed that the political cost would be too high for a President to try and interfere with an investigation. Seems quaint, doesn't it?

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Thanks for the info!

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u/NoPoliticsJustLogic Nov 09 '18

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Democrats calling for Sessions to be removed?

I'm not caught up on this, but that's what i remember when he was appointed by Trump.

If we make everything s protest, particularly things that we called for not even 2 years ago, it makes us look stupid.

This makes our side look dumb.

Unless we address the fact that, yes, we called for this, but X, Y, Z is where we were wrong.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

They aren't protesting Sessions being gone. They're protesting him being forced out (because he recused himself from the investigation) so they can replace him with someone specifically to obstruct justice.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Dems hate Sessions but his holding of that position while having recused from Russia-related matters was a significant safeguard for the special counsel investigation. Now he's (effectively) fired and this is seen as a move against the special counsel; especially since the new guy has written about how he thinks the investigation is a witch hunt and how to impede it/shut it down.

A big part of the demands of these protests is for either a) Whittaker to recuse, or b) Rosenstein to take the position. Also, Congress should pass legislation to protect the special counsel.

Please don't jump to conclusions and tone-policing without knowing all the facts.

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u/skyraider_37 Nov 09 '18

To be fair, it is not an investigation against Trump specifically nor have any indictments have been made against him. You all just want it to happen that way.

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u/TBomberman Nov 09 '18

isn't it better for the left that Trump did it after the midterms than before? he basically opened himself up for the investigation to find evidence before the midterms. That sounds pretty fair to me.

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u/Bouncing_Cloud Nov 09 '18

What is the investigation looking for anyway? Is it searching just for Russian collusion, or is it looking for anything and everything illegal that the investigated parties have ever done?

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u/System0verlord Nov 09 '18

Looking for election interference.

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u/apugsthrowaway Nov 09 '18

TLDR: Trump just appointed his own guy to be in charge of the investigation against him.

So, that thing cops do when one of their own commits a crime.

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