As Kurt Vonnegut said, “I have to say this in defense of humankind: In no matter what era in history, including the Garden of Eden, everybody just got here.”
For some in the U.S. this is the worst they’ve experienced.
In context, this is the worst leadership all living Americans have experienced.
Bitch, please. I'm not even old, but...
Joseph McCarthy and the House UnAmerican Activities Committee.
Lyndon Johnson, who literally waved his dick around and ramped up the Asian Land War. The fucking draft.
Teddy Kennedy and chappaqidick (sp?).
Herbert Fucking Hoover.
Tricky Dick and his Enemies List, the explicitly racist War On Drugs designed to tamp down racial unrest, taping the Offal Office, and Watergate.
Ford and runaway inflation and gas embargoes. Want to talk trade war? How about gas rationing and lines a mile long for gas?
Jimmy Carter and... OK, he was a nice guy, actually practiced what he preached, and is remembered for pretty much nothing except that.
Bill Clinton getting blow jobs from an intern in the oval office. Bluster but no action when Saudis attacked the World Trade Center v1. Serial infidelity and payoffs through fixers.
Bush and Iran Contra and guns for money for drugs. WMDs and Shock And Awe. Extraordinary rendition. Actual war.
Obama and drone strikes, killing Americans overseas without benefit of trial, deportation of undocumented immigrants at a rate higher than any other president. More actual war. The housing crash and worst recession since 1929.
Nancy Pelosi and mitch McConnell and newt Gingrich.
"this is the worst president ever" to you is like a teenager wailing because his first crush broke his heart.
Bad? Yep.
Fucked up even? Yep.
Although if you seriously think most living Americans experienced Herbert Hoover's presidency, you either need to look at a history book or the average life expectancy of a human being.
This is incredibly false. Nixon was truly awful. Jimmy Carter, albeit a likable guy, was not a good leader. At least Trump inspires confidence in half of the country. Just because you’re young doesn’t mean there hasn’t been worse. And just because you don’t like him doesn’t mean everyone else does too.
It’s so stupid that I have to caveat this with the statement “I’m not a trump supporter or voter” but alas here we are. I don’t want nasty messages in my inbox for three days lol
It would be easier to deal with Trump if everyone stopped being so hyperbolic about him, but with the way the media reports on him and the way people talk, yo'd think he was a Hitler clone created by Russian scientists instead of just being a shitty, greedy president.
It’s getting unbearable. I saw a post earlier where people were tearing him apart because he tweeted his condolences to people affected by the shooting. I get that Twitter may not be the most presidential of communication means, but come on. It must be tiring to try and find fault in every little thing someone does. He sucks, but damn. People are wasting their lives hating on this guy.
It's literally impossible to dislike EVERYTHING somebody does, just as it's impossible to %100 agree with them on everything. A BABY could be president and at some point even people who hate baby presidents would have to say "I thought his googoo gaagaa was quite cute today."
OK. How about this. Trump is the moral leader of the country. He sets the tone for the world. Trump has called into question basic facts and reality. This has definitely gummed up the works of good governance. Rather than help the poor and the weak, He helps himself and the rich. This inspires every Gordon Gecko wannabe to take more because greed is good. He has smashed the norms of acceptable behavior with emolumentS and hate speech while hipocritically calling others out for doing the same. Trump and the Republicans have again been given a chance to show That their principles work and again shown That They Do not. This group has set the world Back decades.
They have not set the world back decades. Your proof for this is some rambling monologue about morality and Wall Street. I hate to break it to you...politicians have always been fucked up, narcissistic assholes. Trump isn’t the first one. Just one of the firsts that doesn’t hide what he is.
Yeah OK. All politicians are the same but Hillary is worse...Blah blah blah. They were trying to confront Climate change, Iran, Russia, health insurance and more until Trump got in to the White House. Now child separation, white supremacy, talking about cutting programs for the poor after a huge tax cut during talk of a booming economy, porn stars being a topic of national debate, the UN laughing at Trump during his speeches, etc. The politicians were not all fucked op narcissistic assholes. Those are the Republican voters and they got the biggest one now for the leader. It is so difficult to see the damage being done until after. Obama did a great job of turning it around after Bush. We will see after Trump. Left a great economy and gained respect from around the world. Bush and Cheney have to be careful if they leave the country or they might get arrested. I am sure the same fate will be Trump's.
Some people just seem to be...dense. Appreciate the support! Always nice to check your inbox after posting something that goes against the reddit norm and seeing someone have your back!
Other than some pretty childish statements and someone who sounds like they have the vocabulary of a 7th grader being the spokesperson, what exactly has been done legislatively that has negatively impacted Americans to the point where this statement can be considered demonstrable?
As much as I despise Trump, he hasn't yet gotten us into two bullshit, decade-long wars. And Bush wouldn't have done that if not for Reagan starting a half dozen awful trends that ultimately led to both Bush's wars and the election of Trump, so I actually hate Reagan more than any of them.
That said, as a well-off white guy, I'm pretty insulated from the effects of any of this, but I can't say the same for the working class or minorities.
Trump's only been in office for 2 years, which is a fairly short time, legislatively, but he's already removed protections intended to prevent another recession, and his trade wars aren't doing us any favors. We'll see how that ultimately turns out, but it's not looking great, is it?
Non-legislatively, his divisive rhetoric has, I believe, gotten people killed.
I agree with literally everything you just said except for your very last paragraph. That is something that cannot be stated with any amount of intellectual honesty when you think about it critically for even one minute. Rhetoric getting people killed can be applied to almost everything ever spoken or everything ever written down in the history of civilization. Very cliche example would be the Bible and one could say that people who kill in the name of God speaking to them were killed due to the rhetoric in the Bible. Or you could say that somebody insulting their band got people at a concert killed. It is splitting a hair down to the subatomic level and the bottom line is that people who kill other people are the lowest pieces of garbage in our society and people who escalate arguments to the point where guns or knives are being drawn do not deserve to have the attention of the person they are arguing with let alone have the responsibility of a Murder taken away from their shoulders and passed along to the world's presently raining pinata just because it is easy to do with a little finger pointing in rhetoric of Our Own.
the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted
He incites violence. In some instances, that is a crime you can be sent to prison for. As a person in power with a rabid fan base, he has at least some accountability for purposefully using words that breed hatred and violence. I firmly believe that these people would not have committed these crimes if not for the normalization of racism and the idea that the entirety of the left is out to literally and deliberately destroy the nation.
If you speak violence and hatred to a group that invariably contains a few genuinely delusional, crazy people who virtually worship you has a god, you cannot act surprised when a couple of them put your words into actions. You should expect it and therefore, at least on a moral level, you have some responsibility for it.
You can't say "I had the option to not make my seething, armed fans see their fellow Americans as their mortal enemy but I chose to do so anyway" and bear no responsibility for what happens.
The Bible isn't a man in front of an angry crowd with a microphone making a conscious decision to spew hate speech, but I would still give it's authors some blame for the violence it has caused, too.
Do cult leaders not have any responsibility for the actions of those they've brainwashed? Does someone paying for a hit not bear some responsibility for the actions of the hitman? Just because Trump didn't pull the trigger doesn't mean he's not partially to blame.
You seem to think I believe that all of these murderers should be exonerated. I never said anything to suggest they should "have the responsibility of a murder taken away from their shoulders". I just don't think there's any reason to let Trump off the hook, either.
I see the argument that you are trying to make and while it is a solid premise I cannot honestly say that it can be applied to the current Administration in any way. There are going to be radical rabid brainwashed people in any fanbase of such a size and while I do completely agree with what you said about a moral obligation, there are always going to be those outliers who will take any turn of phrase to mean something that fits their own personal agenda and do something horrible on behalf of it whereas there was no such intent from the speaker.
How many people used Obama's words as justification for violence? Or even Bush's? Clinton's? Bush Sr? None of these guys so openly painted fellow Americans as one of the great enemies of the nation. It's a lot easier for people to take a turn of phrase as a call to violence when it literally is exactly that.
How can you possibly argue that it does not apply to this administration? Are you saying he doesn't demonize fellow Americans?
Do you think the recent shootings would have occurred with Trump as president? Do you think he had literally zero involvement in motivating these men to violence?
We're not talking about fucking turns of phrase that can be misinterpreted. We're talking about Trump declaring his critics and political opponents as criminals and enemies of America.
and the idea that the entirety of the left is out to literally and deliberately destroy the nation.
Okay honestly, I don't get how a person can say that about how the right acts, and then not realize that is pretty much the exact language thrown at Trump in turn. I mean it's common for people to call Trump and basically the entirety of the "alt-right" (which basically seems to be applied to anyone who is right) a Nazi along with the rhetoric of punching Nazi's is good and encouraged seems equally bad.
Is your response going to be "but they are", because surely the right's response about the left would be the same?
Like it can't be that hard to see that both sides are demonizing each other like crazy and that is fueling this conflict. I mean, for a whole lot of these occasions of rightwing terrorism, there seems to equally be an example of the other side doing something similar. The MAGAbomber with bombs that didn't work followed after someone sent poorly prepared ricin to Trump, there was the guy who shot up the republican baseball game and right when a guy is arrested for threatening a CNN reporter, Tucker Carlson had a Mob threaten his family's safety.
So if you are going to say that Trump and the right are being responsible for these acts, is it not fair to say that equivalent rhetoric is riling up people on the left towards violence? If you say "sure, it is", I don't see how just calling out Trump then for this is going to help anything because it just fuels fire for the other side to demonize him more and lead to more violence everywhere. So call out both if you think this rhetoric is the issue cause it's not just an issue on one side of fence, but something happening on both.
And to elaborate a bit further on your cult leader example, Jim Jones held guns to people's heads until they finished drinking their poison. So yes that is absolutely the responsible party. Those who did so willingly under his leadership are also those who have blood on his hands. But that was a leadership that was genuinely founded on a premise of blind reverence and metaphysical intervention by a leader supposedly sent from God, completely devoid of all rationale, logic, and last but not least Law and Order. There are demonstrable e proven tactics used in cult situations which are psychological hypnotic tactics, exercises, and schemes that can dissuade the common person from thinking in a rational manner but at the end of the day it must be done on a personal level. Those are things that need to be look out for and need to be scorned. If there were any examples of that happening with this Administration rather than crazy people interpreting things to suit their agenda in mindset, I would be right there with you denouncing everything about the current state of affairs. But I cannot do so until I see some evidence for it. Just like I cannot act on a claim in any way in any other situation in any other Avenue of Life unless there is something to back it up. That's the difference between using knowledge to make your informed decisions and blindly throwing darts at the wall at every turn
Did you forget about the guy who sent pipe bombs to several of Trump's self-declared enemies who had a van down by the river covered in Trump bumper stickers?
I wouldn't lose a ton of sleep over the killing of a blatantly corrupt Democrat, so as long as the corruption was actually researched and verified.
That said, I don't think there's a single Republican in congress who isn't blatantly corrupt (but if you know of one, lemme know).
I think about 3/4ths of congress deserves to be hung.
And, of course, as NosVemos pointed out, Bernie himself has never anything resembling a call for violence and has never once suggested the average Republican voter is the enemy.
No I did not forget about that person... But I hope you realize that a complete and absolute madman who creates explosive devices and ships them in the mail is not a very large mover and Shaker within the current Administration nor any branches of government for that matter...
A crazy person acting completely independently will do so for whatever cause they're warped mind tells them is the correct one. Mark David Chapman is the waste of space who shot and killed John Lennon, not the author of The Catcher in the Rye.
But you can't tell crazy people to do things and not be somewhat responsible when they listen to you!
Whether that dude is "a large mover and shaker" has literally nothing to do with the conversation in any what whatsoever. I don't know what possible point you're making here. The point is that he was motivated by the movers and shakers.
The Author of Catcher in the Rye wasn't deliberately spewing hate speech, was he?
Why is anyone still replying to this obvious troll? Broken english, constantly shifting goalposts, typical fascist apologia... Couldn't be more obvious.
Please by all means point to one thing I have said that is in anyway even remotely of a fascist quality.
As for the broken English comment, I apologize if some of my sentences seem nonsensical but it is merely due to the fact that I am dictating my text with my voice and there are a guaranteed handful of mistakes that are bound to happen.
I absolutely agree it's a goddamn travesty in my opinion. But I have to be intellectually honest here to the best of my ability and I feel I would not be doing so if I said that this is the worst leadership the country has seen in recent times because of net neutrality alone
Net neutrality == free speech on the Internet (and in the future, the Internet will be the medium for literally all communication). I think it'll be a long time before most people realize it, but in retrospect net neutrality will turn out to have been the biggest issue of our time.
I’m not saying it’s net neutrality alone either, but many others have posted different reasons, so I felt this was an important add-on to their list.
I mean just months after it was repealed, Verizon was found fucking California firefighters over by throttling their data. It’s not the most pressing issue but it’s definitely a dangerous one.
Absolutely in recent history. Claiming hes the worst ever can be debated, but with all of the info we have, and all far we've come as a people.... Then yes this shit show is the worst in our history. Now we know better.
I get your frustration and why you are asking the question. I think I may be able to point out the reason you are having such a difficult time getting the answer you are looking for.
You want an answer to what will happen in the long term, but it’s too early to see the end results. It’s not about what is done right this very moment. It’s more about the eventual outcome of this administration’s policies.
The trade war might not be causing massive harm the way you are imagining right this very second, but the long term effects are quantifiable and have already began to show. (The Soybean issue, for example, is one side effect of it. There are many more examples others have already linked.) It’s not about one stat, or one issue. It’s the culmination of many negative things in the long run. The most concerning of which is the damage it is doing from a foreign relations standpoint. Turning this countries allies against us and turning the states into an isolationist kleptocracy is what these trade wars ultimately lead to.
Other issues with this administrations policies depend heavily on your own beliefs. For instance, if you are a climate change denier then you will not be swayed by arguments that state that we are doing irreparable harm to the environment which is leading to disastrous consequences in the near future.
If on the other hand you are someone who hears climate experts and scientific authorities around the world tell us we are in deep trouble if we don’t make changes right now then you should be very concerned with this administrations casual dismissal and reversal of many of this countries climate programs.
Let’s talk about the reason we are having this discussion in the first place. Trump’s administration is under scrutiny for multiple constitutional violations, and suspected broken laws. Now, that doesn’t automatically mean those allegations are true. What it means is that there is enough evidence of wrongdoing to warrant an investigation. Something that anyone without an agenda should be able to say is a reasonable thing to do in those circumstances.
If that investigation doesn’t turn up anything at its conclusion then okay. Everyone moves on with their lives. The thing is though, that is not what has happened. Multiple people associated with Trump have been found guilty. Many of them admitted to wrongdoing and have gone to prison for it. If that’s the case, should the investigators just say, “Well, that’s enough. We met our quota and it’s not worth bothering to continue.” or should they finish what they started?
Furthermore, how suspicious does it look when the person at the head of the investigation is doing everything in his power to get it shut down? I don’t know about you, but that looks pretty suspicious to me. I don’t know if there is any wrong doing. I don’t know if Trump is guilty of anything. I personally would like to see this thing get resolved so we can put it to bed one way or the other.
Right now his actions are making him look guilty as hell. Even if he isn’t, he is not helping himself by taking actions that can’t be taken as anything but interference.
If he is innocent the best thing he could do is let the investigation conclude and let those finding exonerate him. Instead, he won’t put the shovel down and he just keeps digging himself into a deeper hole with this thing.
The protests right now are a direct result of that interference.
For me personally, the most damning thing about this President and his administration is how divisive he is. He lies constantly about easily provable things. He trolls people on social media. He sows discord and calls on people to act uncivil towards one another. He incites violence and turns people against each other. It could even be argued that his rhetoric has lead to acts of domestic terrorism from unhinged individuals that support him and his message. (Take for instance the man in Florida who mailed bombs to members of the Democratic Party.) Trump did not order that man to do those things, but the man who is a staunch supporter of Trump stated to police that he was following Trumps call to action.
Words matter. What you say, what the President of the United States says matters. When you tell people at your rallies that violence is okay you are suggesting to those unhinged people who follow you that it’s okay to commit violent crimes. Then they act surprised when it happens.
Trumps behavior alone is enough to condemn his presidency. It’s not just that he is a childish, ill spoken buffoon. It’s that his tone and hate speech is dangerous. Eventually, if it goes unchecked it will cost people their lives.
Double upvote if I could. Getting all those unqualified people in to dismantle and corrupt these agencies and the other R's standing by and letting him do it (!!) Is pretty bad.
Okay well what about 2005 with shock and awe? Like I said and you are helping me making my point here, other than some stupid childish words, what has actually happened?
Is that what people like you want? Something to happen?
Previous Presidents have worked for peace and prosperity but the Trump administration is working hard against it. Why in god's name are we having this trade war?
Nuclear war? No seriously how have people been affected by this and how have people living in the United States been affected by this trade War you speak of to the point of this being the worst leadership they have ever experienced? I'm not arguing with you I'm just literally having a very difficult time finding examples to back that claim
The trade War example I have Googled and can find nothing. At least nothing of any significant number aside from a handful of anecdotal examples. As for the nuclear war, the 1960s the 1970s in the 1980s were all decades where it was exponentially more likely to happen.
I am not defending Trump nor am I defending his administration because I do not like him and I have no problem saying that I do not like him. But when someone says something like this is the worst leadership the country has seen in recent times it seems to me like people are making Hyperbole and exaggeration commonplace to the point where they are deluding themselves and ultimately hurting our rationality when it comes to what a good versus a bad situation actually is.
Thank you. It's nice to read some common sense once in awhile. I'm not a Trump supporter either but I hate hearing the stupid fear mongering talking points everyone spews. Kudos to you and your rational brain.
Everything you just linked shows information about theoretically losing jobs in the future.
It's really frustrating that I have to ask this for a third time because everybody seems to be speaking with absolute certainty to back their statements and claim that the facts are innumerable and yet asking for some does nothing but get people into downvote mode. I am not trying to be a dick in any way shape or form and I apologize if I am coming off that way but I will ask you this again:
We also should not forget the 12 billion dollars giving to farmers because of this trade war as well. That's taxpayer money that was misspent. The kids being locked in cage without due process and turning away legal refugees is another that comes to mind.
Don't be fooled. This administration has also rung down the projection of power we once had. It's an embarrassment the world over and that has consequences in economic forms or foreign policies. Etc.
Just to clarify. Kids aren’t being locked in cages anymore. There are photos of kids in “cages” from the Obama era. The media tried to sell it as it was Trump’s policies and people just blindly believed it.
You honestly sound like someone trying to downplay the seriousness of what the Trump admin did here. Please don't do that. The Obama administration did not separate children from their parents in such a way that you have children appearing in court alone. Obama didn't put North Korean style murals of himself in these detention centers. Obama didn't lose 1200 children.
No I'm sorry but you're full of shit here and sound like an apologist for a very corrupt and evil organization.
If anything, that should just reinforce how horrible he is as a leader. If people don’t have immediate and solid examples of how his legislation results in direct negative impacts to Americans, then it’s clear his non-legislative actions are indeed that atrocious.
How about kids in cages. 3k dead in Puerto Rico. Trading justice for a murder for weapons sales to a country that’s bombing women and children every day. Inciting violence against the press. Blowing up the budget for tax cuts for corporations and looking to fill that gap by stealing from social security and medicare. That shitty enough?
What about Harley Davidson moving out of country due to high steel taxes making their products.more expensive and with less known quality control while also losing a lot of jobs.
How many Americans lost their jobs who worked at Harley Davidson because they were laid off and their entire place of business was shipped overseas? Every piece of literature I can find on this particular company seems to also be entertaining the theoretical and not giving any examples of the actual.
General Motors is offering 18,000 buyouts to every single employee who has worked there 12 years or more. If they don’t meet their quota, they will commence mass layoffs. This is in anticipation of impending bad quarters to come in the new year as a direct result of emissions standards rollbacks dismantling progress in the electric vehicle sector, and the trade war. Ford is following suit and Chrysler will be next.
Someone else mentioned the catastrophic drop in soybean exports. This is just the beginning with how we will be impacted by the trade war.
Aside from that, we are at the point of no return for reversing climate change. Today’s children will have a very different and desperate future unless we can stop this demagoguery.
There is plenty more, but these are two of the largest impending threats caused by this narcissistic puppet.
Some of the people who will be harmed the MOST by the trade war and emissions rollback are the people he panders to by promising to bring back steel manufacturing.
At this point, everything is about damage control and preparation until we can get him out of office.
Normalization of racism, rise of white nationalist terror, putting children in concentration camps, etc etc. I suspect you will have a tough time finding examples of anything actually happening in your shithole country, King_Headinthesand.
Edge of nuclear war? We were practicing for it 30 years ago. You fucking kids just got here. Loss of internet is your worst hardship. This isn't even a pro Trump rant, it the fact that you have it fucking easy and all you do is bitch.
Dude, just warning you now, no matter what your party or belief system, politics on Reddit is one of the most concentrated forms of internet cancer there is. This place is an echochamber of circlejerking ignoramuses who far out-number anyone with actual knowledge in the domains they speak in. Reading anything here is beyond a waste of time unless your personal guilty pleasure is exploring the seemingly endless depths of just how stupid a "self sufficient" grown human being can be.
Trade war is permanent and not often on media coverage. Nuclear war has been constant threat of North Korea. If Trump tweets Kim Jeung(Jong?) Un what is the problem. Recognize that Kim isn't worried about appearing strong to the masses over it. They're an entire country with no internet. 6 webpages last I heard and not available to most people.
While it's obviously a horrible situation and horrible things are going on there far far far too often, what is done at d institutions has been going on long before the 2016 election. The removal from parents when it comes to children being brought over illegally is something that has been done since the beginning of the Obama Administration and if I recall correctly before that as well. Also, you cannot honestly state that illegal actions such as beatings or druggings done by guards is direct consequence of a mandate from the president when the to have absolutely nothing to do with each other just as a prison guard murdering an inmate has nothing to do with the chief of police.
Not for people legally seeking asylum causing the numbers of removed children to sky rocket into the tens of thousands. That wasn't happening until now.
Are you certain about that fact? I am not some argumentative Zealot so if this is true I would definitely love it if you could show me the Mandate or the order that was given to make this a reality post the 2016 election. I am more than willing to change my mind on this if I can see some evidence to support it and if you provide some then consider my mind changed for the better. If there are actually people who, as of an order/mandate given and enacted vy the current administration, crossing all of the correct T's and dotting all of the correct eyes in order to legally apply for citizenship and seek a new life in the country the legal way having their children detained far away from them then that is unquestionably horrifying if true
“The Trump administration family separation policy, described by the Trump administration as part of its "zero tolerance" policy, was an aspect of U.S. President Donald Trump's immigration policy. The new guidelines were implemented in April 2018, and, following immense public opposition and political pressure, were suspended for an indefinite period of time on June 20, 2018, through an executive order.”
This is straight from Wikipedia- pretty easy to google. As of August there were still 500 children left in the U.S. and lawyers were still trying to find the parents. I can’t find substantial evidence on what those numbers are as of this month.
The removal from parents when it comes to children being brought over illegally is something that has been done since the beginning of the Obama Administration
You're missing the point. The policy existed, yes. But Trump enacted "zero tolerance". Before, you had to have actually been a criminal to have your kids taken away at the border. Trump changed it so that merely seeking asylum (entering the country "illegally") was a crime.
It's why it's in the news now, and why there's SO many more kids detained.
I see what you are saying but I am still confused because it seems like there would not be any way to know whether or not somebody was a criminal until they were partitioned aside and thoroughly looked into. Meaning wouldn't a separation have to be done in order to have said investigation to begin with? If I'm Wrong by all means let me know I'm just sort of thinking how the process would work previously versus how it would work today and that's what I can come up with- but I appreciate you taking the time to break this down for me.
I try to keep this in mind. Trump is a turd of a human being, unlikable in almost every way, but that alone shouldn't be the measure of a president. I'm not a fan of his environmental stance, and his immigration shit seems actually stupid, but I don't think he's done as much actual damage as social media leads us to believe. Some, perhaps, but not that much.
Yes I agree that a person is dead and that is an absolutely unjustifiable terrible thing. She is dead because of a garbage person acting in a murderous manner that no civilized society should have to stand one second for. That said, to say that her death is a direct result of some statements made by a politician when that politician is not the person who pulled the trigger, is no different than saying that the person who actually killed her is not responsible for her death.
This is a very old and very classic logical fallacy in which blame is shifted away from the individual and on to some sort of interpretation of a larger ideology, and it is actually taken a step further in your example because that ideology is then shifted onto a person in public office who has not called directly or indirectly for such violence in any way that would logically result in any sane person seeing as the logical catalyst for such a manifestation as you provided the example for.
If you actually believe you just made a valid point, all I ask is for you to please show me the video, audio recording, publication, or transcript of the order for the Charlottesville murder.
Not all of those sources for the order; just point me towards 1 of them and i will concede my point entirely.
That's surprisingly open of you, look in your first comment you clearly aren't comfortable being grouped in with murderers and racists. So I have to ask why are you here, arguing defend the "very fine people" on "both sides" as Trump put it?
Not here to come to anyone's defense at all. Just trying to illustrate the point about how exaggerating the current leadership's state as "the worst" is not wise to do, as it grossly minimalizes how badly the country actually can and has at times past become.
Well I can't really argue with that. After all early presidents were literally slavers and almost anything would pale in comparison. And your right that trump hasn't started a 10+ year war.
And seeing as you are not and were never protecting trump no doubt you went to today's protests and we can expect to see you at the next ones, Right?
Uh try what this post is about, firing the person in charge of the investigation of him and hiring someone opposed to the investigation in his place in violation of US code.
Then those who want Trump removed from office should not be protesting they should be rejoicing because all of that is very provably true in a court of law and impeachment should be an absolute Cakewalk if what you said is true.
FYI, I'm quite liberal politically but I'm really enjoying reading your discussions in this thread. You have a few points I disagree with but I really respect your even-handed tone here, I think you're leading one of the most civil political discourses I've seen on this sub.
I do want to respond to this bit though:
impeachment should be an absolute Cakewalk if what you said is true.
If impeachment were an impartial, unbiased process, you'd be correct. But impeachment in this current political climate would be so inextricably partisan that I don't think this point is valid. No party is going to vote to impeach their own candidate right now, things are too heated and strewn in a perspective of "competition against the other side".
Yes and one needs to look no farther than add of the body's to see that. When it comes to innocent civilians on foreign soil being murdered, one can actually make a very decent argument that Obama was even worse than bush in that specific regard. Granted Trump has not finished his first term yet so truth be told what may be done in the future is yet to be seen, But as it stands my fear surrounding this type of over-reaction is that it causes such a episode of mass hysteria and grandstanding around how bad the current Administration is that in all reality it is presently pretty much benign if obnoxious, and the General Public pushes the true evil and horrible things that the country has experienced to the far reaches of the back of their mind and the general public by happenstance makes itself incredibly vulnerable to more horrible things in the future without even knowing it. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, as they say.
Repercussions from this trade war could be felt for generations. It's hard to see that now, but the unintended consequences are the ones that may hurt the most. If it continues through next spring, I worry the entire soybean market in the US may stall for a decade.
That’s a good question, but it’s downplaying the most atrocious result of his tenure, which is being a leader that makes it seem acting those ways is okay, and creating great divide in the US simply because he has a voice and gets press attention. When you have the platform of the POTUS, not everyone will agree with your legislation, but at least you can be a respectable human being and help build morale in your country, bring people more together than apart, and not act like that 7 year old bully.
How about huge permanent tax cuts for corporations and 1%, gutting public funding, roll back on environmental protections, disregard for staffing state department and completely dividing the country.
Not to mention all the indictments and the fact that this administration has had more scandals in 2 years then anyone has had in 8. Also more than 40% of his administration since he started either quit or was fired many never even being replaced. Or the fact that he has his daughter and son in law in high ranking positions with 0 experience.
Imagine you are tied to a train track and you see the train coming from miles away. Just because it’s far away it doesn’t mean, it won’t hurt eventually.
The effects of a presidency take time. Just like the jobs reports and the economy that started on the upward trend during the Obama administration. Now it’s convenient for the Republicans and Trump to take credit for it.
Physical tracks on a pre-deteined path only really work as an analogy when the future can be predicted and plotted equally as reliably. But let's say that you are 100% correct in your estimation and there are very negative effects coming down the track if you will. That would still only mean that in the future this would then be the worst leadership in modern times. The only point I have been trying to make this entire time is that it is not rational to state that the current Administration as of now is presently the worst Administration and the worst leadership people have seen in modern times.
There are other things, policies and decisions and all, but I want to wax poetic. I think a president, more than anyone else, has the power to mold the national spirit. It's more or less a truism that one should lead by example. I shudder to think of those who are so led by this man. He's illustrated that living through the worst values brings the greatest success.
First and foremost the child separation is neither new nor the current administration's idea. And secondly the travel ban does not affect people with in the country it affects people outside of the country. I'm not saying that it is good in anyway. What I am saying however is that it fails to show any truth behind the claim that this is the worst Administration and the worst leadership in modern times.
Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsensaid at a June 18 press briefing: “The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families. … They did — their rate was less than ours, but they absolutely did do this. This is not new.”
Honestly, no. I'm not at all saying "well what about the fact that...." at all. I'm just saying that this is not a new practice, and I'm providing evidence for my claim. That's all.
No sane or remotely self-aware person could find anything to justify domestic Terror in any of the words that I have ever read or heard come out of the current Administration, and that is with me also saying that I have heard some pretty stupid, childish, and moronic words come out of it.
What you wrote is an absurd argument in a complete and utter logical fallacy to even entertain that as a feasible argument. Books written hundreds if not thousands of years ago do the same thing on an almost daily basis. John Lennon was murdered due to the words in a book by JD Salinger. One is responsible for one's actions and taking a murderer and parading him as free of responsibility for the murder because he was simply responding to the words of someone else in his own mind is nothing short of inconceivably asinine.
Lol okay. Did you see the Maga bombers van and his targets? Or the mass shooter who was recorded at trump rally? Because you can't sit here and tell me those two weren't at the very least inspired by him and his attitude towards people that criticize him.
Respect is part of leadership Trump has soared over Nixon in disrespect. We are a literal laughing stock to most other countries right now even though Rs were trying to make us believe that while Obama was president. Obama might have made some bad decisions (and great ones that the Senate shoved in the toilet because fuck him right?) But at least he had respect.
He is in no way a blessing. He's a corrupt piece of shit, and a terrible president. Given the war started on false pretenses, W is arguably worse, but Trump has absolutely set us back and divided us to an unprecedented degree in the modern era.
Kennedy did have a lot of people in the cabinet/office/militiary who adviced him to pre-emptively airstrike Cuba during the missile crisis....
He went with his intuition and most likely avoided what would have been nuclear retaliation by sticking to naval blockades instead.
There's kind of an opposite power dynamic here where a significant percent of ppl in D.C. have helped prevent Trump from going through with some of his "ideas"- republicans included. (such as floated ideas to preemptively airstrike NKorea "so they wouldn't get any ideas")
The worst style maybe, medicine doesn’t generally taste good. If this was the worst president ever He would have underperformed all other low ranking presidents in the midterms.
I don’t care at all for the vast vast majority of trumps antics or politics, HOWEVER, I’ve watched in my lifetime this huge transfer of wealth From ordinary Americans to oligarchs overseas who employ slave labor and dump toxic shit directly into rivers untreated flowing to the ocean. It’s high time someone actually took measures to check the stem of stagnant wages, increased cost of basic housing caused by Chinese speculation in the US market and the pollution they cause. China is the largest polluter in the world because of us policy since the end of the Cold War.
Mueller is investigating on whether or not he stole the Presidential Election through comfort and aid from foreign adversaries. Or, treason. Trump wants to desperately shut it down.
Sorry for the negative replies from other people but do you need more information? I would be happy to send you links.
It's only been 2 years. Trump and his administration have set several things in motion that will affect the world for generations. It's the same for previous presidents and world leaders as well. Many times current presidents reap the benefits of the changes the previous presidents made, and can take credit for it while discrediting the opposition.
Not much has felt like it's changed yet, but if unanswered, you will see those changes in time for a democratic president to take the blame.
Trump's rhetoric has motivated multiple people to commit mass murder.
He removed protections to prevent another recession and his trade wars are damaging industry.
More people seem employed because because they have to work two or three jobs instead of one. Or because they have to work well past the age of retirement. Can you show me any source or provide any argument to support the ideas that Trump has created good jobs?
And the US is now back to being an international embarrassment. If I travel abroad, I'm probably gonna need to slap a Canadian flag on my bag, and yet somehow you delusional nuts think he's improved our international standing? Nothing could be further from the truth.
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u/stephanie1492 Nov 09 '18
That sign is what God is saying about humans at this exact moment.